I post in here while I am sitting under a hair dryer:

After working out, I wash my hair- and it takes ~ 50 minutes to dry...

Sometimes I linger a bit longer because the [color:"blue"] ignance [/color] is just so darned entertaining.

BTW-MY HUSBAND IS DEPLOYED.

Thanks for asking.

See when CS called an unconditional cease fire, I was stupid enough to think she meant it and just maybe might have a valuable contribution to make.

My bad.

Because groupthink and the desire for conformity is a mofo...

That's too funny...coming from someone in the same category...who, of course, is speaking to others who could be labelled in the same way.


I mean let's be honest-Isn't is always the same old stuff on this site?

The whole site is predicated on the same set of problems and implementable solutions no?

The thing is-whne no one else plays by the rules / plays nice why should you?

Look to the Dolphins for your answer:

Dolphins will brutalize sharks up until the moment they can be assured that the sharks no longer intend to cause harm.

In other words, it is foolish to abide by the Geneva Conventions when no one else is .

Well, I had a really long and valuable post all set for here, but then I remembered that due to "groupthink" you all already know everything that I was going to espouse anyhow...So, nevermind...You guys "KNOW"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

That's the beauty of The Hive Mind.

Hey there CS.
You sure make threads Lively ....that's for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

First,
wanted to say Thanx for answering my Questions on a different thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I apologize for NOT giving you a more timely response there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
AND SEE, it was for informational purposes ONLY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Next,
I will say I admire you for sticking around and Fighting YOUR own battles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I for one,
AM very pleased and encouraged by that fact.
Cause even if you are a center of many a different Storm around here .......At Least you Aren't RUNNING to the Mods and tattling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />(which sadly seems to be Becoming the Norm).......Instead, you stay right in there taking as good as you give.

From this vantage,
THAT "is" most Refreshing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh man,
your posts have slowed down .......your hair must be Dry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

By the way,
the vets you seem to take such issue with
Really Do have their intentions in the right place.
Not sure what about Having a consistent message that seems bothers you soooo much ......but regardless of your opinion ......They Really have done MUCH GOOD.
Both here and in TRW!
Perhaps keep that in mind, even when you disagree.

No I ain't kidding, Mulan... but you took the statement out of context. It was a part of the original question copied below...




This has been an ongoing discussion in which some here have agreed there is no simple answer.

This question is in no way meant to condone, justify, or excuse an affair marriage... it is asking at what point is there more damage by "turning back the clock" and making it right? Is this a plausible thought... or should all affair marriages break up regardless of the situation... or does it make sense, sometimes... particulary when we are talking many years... that the new partners should live with what they have wrought... for the sake of everyone else around them. (This is assuming the original BS has moved on with his/her life following years of separation). This does not mean that forgiveness, apologies, or whatever are not in order... I don't have the answer and was simply asking.

This issue does affect me a little as my MIL was in an affair marriage... she isn't anymore simply because her H has passed away.

Shaden

Some of you may have missed this post from Just Jilly if
you didn't click on the link in the first post of this thread.

(Just Jilly left on the 26th for a 5 day vacation with her husband and children.)

One of her two remaining posts that weren't deleted is below.


Re: Advised to move thread to GII [Re: bigkahuna]
#3063969 - 07/24/06 01:53 PM

Bigkahuna,

If you or anyone else following this or my other thread see this you will see that I have deleted all my posts. I thank all of you who took the time to read and respond to me. In an effort to no longer rewrite any past history I think it is best for me to just stop posting altogether.I mean no disrespect to anyone by this. It is out of respect for all that you have been through that I feel that anything I say cannot be seen in any way as truth. It doesn't matter what I think anymore.

I will make one other post on another thread and then that will be it.

I do not think this site is for anyone in my situation. It is only meant for those whose marriages are "legit" and deserving of support or those marriages that ended as a result of adultery and need support. I don't fit in anywhere so I think it is best that I stop posting. I am very weak and vulnerable right now. I am not saying I don't deserve to hurt. I get the whole karma thing.

I am sorry for all the pain that all of you have been through. I am sorry for once being a OW. I will never be that again so I guess that for anyone who wonders if a WW can ever change the answer is yes..she can change herself but no one else. She can make amends to those she has hurt and ask God to forgive her as well. She can live with the guilt for the rest of her life and can maybe one day forgive herself.

She can do right by her children and focus what little she has right now on doing everything she can to make sure they are okay. She can love them inspite of her brokeness and she can seek professional help to deal with any and all issues that led her to become what she has.

She can forgive her husband whether he is deserving or not. She can love him and pray for him and provide support for him to recover. She can ask God to help him to too.

I wish you all peace, hope, and recovery.
Jilly

IWRA,

Thank you for posting this info. I misunderstood that she was back and was to be updating soon. Hope she had a good vacation.

With that said and what you posted, Jilly did outline what a WS can do. The question is that what she is doing? See she is speaking in the 3rd person so it still is not clear if this is her direction or she just knows this is where she needs to be headed.

I post as such because that is how a xwS often talks. There is still something missing. Not to make me happy (that doesn't matter, this is not about me), but something in Jilly's post even in this one shows something is missing. Can't put my finger on it so I don't expect everyone to understand. I c/b wrong... I certainly hope so.

Still Jilly can get help and from her post she knows how to go about it. The biggie question is: Will she and when?

All the best,
L.

CinnamonSugar - and I, for one, see your distain for Christ to be an equally big problem, to say nothing of your mocking of God. At the very least it is very disrespectful of others and "secular group think" on your part, as you like to put it. You presume much, but seem to understand very little. That, too, is not very surprising as the things of the Lord are seen as "foolishness" to those who are perishing.

So let me ask you a question, if I may. You began posting to sbmmal, ostensibly because he is military, and you are ex-Navy. You immediately went on the attack and totally discounted his faith in Christ. You sought "justification" for his wife by claiming he was an abuser and twisting what he said to "prove your point." Now you are here, slamming people instead of having an intelligent discussion with opposing opinions.

What makes your opinion "right" and other's opinions "wrong?" By who's "immutable standard" do you grant yourself the right to be "judge" of right and wrong?

Let me ask another question, if you have not experienced infidelity in your marriage, or in your life for that matter, what makes you think you are "more knowledgeable" about the subject matter than people who have been "through the fire" personally?

In short, what is your motivation for posting on a forum that is dedicated to SUPPORTING folks who have experienced one of life's most traumatic events and who are trying to sort through the mess that comes from adultery?



No I don't. I smell CinnamonSugar looking for an excuse to be a gadfly and not to contribute to a discussion where the participants, by and large, are feeling tremendous pain from the REALITY of infidelity in THEIR lives.

But let's see what we can do to answer your questions and perhaps put an end to your need to be the focus of attention, rather than the people who are looking for help in their struggles with infidelity;


No, they are NOT "less worth saving.

Yes, they may need "different consideration" because children require being part of the "equation" and not suffer because of the "problems" of "adults." Many of the techiques and advice are equally applicable to marriages with or without children, but when children ARE present, they are a part of the whole situation and need to be addressed also.




Yes. If you want to be a Big Brother or a Big Sister, have at it. But that is not the same thing as shouldering parental responsibilities. Even single parenthood falls short of the "best situation" of a loving marriage with BOTH father and mother available to the children. The single parent can be a "good parent" in his/her own right, but it is still short of the "ideal."

Marriage IS about the husband and wife. But when children are present, the marriage also takes on the added role of Parental Responsibility and the actions of the "adults" do impact the children. Your attempt to "narrow" the consideration to only the husband and wife illustrates what appears to be a fundamental lack of knowledge and indicates you are here for the "ego boost" it gives you to argue, not to help out of a concern for, or love for, others.

FH - You are forgetting CS is here for her entertainment.

Mkeverydaycnt, I have said that IMO such a M can become legitimate in the eyes of God if or when the infidels become newly-converted or new-born Christians and therefore receive God’s forgiveness, grace and mercy for their past sins. IMO this process will include repentance from the infidels to God and repentance to their past victims e.g. the betrayed spouses from their 1st marriages. But IMO this process will not necessarily include divorce their current spouses and stay unmarried or return to the previous spouses… For more information on why I belief this (and more info on why I belief such a M can become legitimate in the eyes of God if/when the infidels become newly-converted/new-born Christians) please read the quotes I’ve provided from a website on “Biblical Divorce and Remarriage” on this post.

Really? Why? Because I belief in God’s forgiveness, mercy and grace for people who repent and become newly-converted/new-born Christians? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sigh… I was not talking about people in AFFAIRS, I was talking about people in marriages which started off as A’s but became repentant and newly-converted/new-born Christians afterwards.

God’s grace, mercy and forgiveness applies to ALL sinners (including adulterers) who become repentant and turn their life’s to Him and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior… And IMO because of this a M which start of as an A can become legitimate in the eyes of God when/if the infidels become repentant, turn to Him and accept Jesus Chirst as their Lord and Savior in other words become newly-converted or new-born Christians. Are you implying I’m out of my “freaking mind” for believing this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> How disrespectful for you to say something like this on something which is just my personal opinion as a Christian who believes in forgiveness, mercy and grace for ALL repentant sinners. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Are YOU without sin mkeverydaycnt?

Who is ##### and where have I provide “Excuses” and “Entitlement” for adultery? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Please show me.

Disgust at my words and thoughts because I believe in God’s forgiveness, grace and mercy through Jesus Christ for repentant sinners who became newly-converted or new-born Christians and are therefore washed/cleansed as “white as snow” from their past sins? Please explain how this is “disgusting”. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add:
I just want to point out to you that by saying the above (that repentant sinners who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and turn away from their wrong paths, will be cleansed/washed as “white as snow” for their past sins), I don’t imply or say that there will NOT be severe consequences for their past actions or that they WON’T continue to feel the consequences of such and have much baggage…of course they may...that's why very few M's which start out as A's survive, but it's not to say that it's not possible... Through God EVERYTHING is possible and infidels can (as all other sinners) receive His love, forgiveness and grace if they repent and turn to Him...

Are you implying with this sentence that, in your opinion, I’m still a WS (since you've mentioned my name and the word WS in the same sentence)? If so, why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Maybe ridiculous in YOUR mind, but not in the mind of GOD who’s Son has died on the cross to pay for our sins... God’ grace, mercy and forgiveness are big enough for EVERYONE who convert to Him and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior… Adultery is NOT an “unforgivable sin” (as you seem to imply here).

ForeverHers has already replied to you on this one but I will copy and paste it for you to read again:

[color:"blue"] “MEDC - this really is the issue, isn't it?

Repentance of sin is what we are all called to do. We are talking about a couple of different things here, however, not whether or not a marriage exists, because it does.

What we are talking about on the one hand is repentance that leads to salvation, and on the other hand repentance of realized sin in one's life.

Let's be frank and honest for a minute, okay? THE primary issue is one's "standing before God," not whether or not the marriage is adulterous. ALL sin needs to be "called to account" as a sin against God, first and foremost. Repentance of a sin (adultery or any other sin) does NOT mean that it should be replaced with another sin. That is the idea behind the biblical admonition to "be angry (righteous anger), but in your anger do not also sin."

Some things cannot be "undone" once they are done. They can be forgiven, but not expunged. That is one of the problems I personally have, for example, with the Roman Catholic idea of annulment of a marriage. There is NO "undoing" of what has been created (a marriage) because God clearly gives only ONE reason for believers to divorce a fellow believer. Outside of two believers, there is the Pauline directive to "let the unbeliever go." That does NOT negate the fact that they, too, were married.

Let's face it, the clear directive of God concerning marriage is that a believer should NOT marry an unbeliever to begin with. So in one respect, we put our own desires ahead of God's clear direction, and sometimes we "suffer the consequences" of that disobedience.

Regardless, marriages of all types (between men and women) are recognized as marriages by God. They may not be marriages between two believers, but they are marriages nonetheless.

To deny forgiveness to someone who is brought to a saving faith or to a believer who later "hears" the Holy Spirit and is convicted of their sin and then repents, is contrary to Jesus' command to Peter, and to all of us.

God bless.” [/color]

Suzet

If a robber steals a million dollars from a person and lives high on the proceeds, never being caught , never repenting finds Jesus, do you advocate that the stolen money is now HIS because of his salvation ?

If that robber has some of his booty stolen, and is sad, do you think helping him protect his stash would be hurtful and disrespectful to the original and rightful owner of that money or not ?

I would think that if a robber REALLY finds Jesus..
He will do EVERYTHING he can to restore the million dollars.
Work his butt off for it.
Because he will know that such is the only correct thing to do.
So in that case.. robber holding on to money.. says he "found Jesus".. he just uses that as an excuse to "not be the bad guy", IMHO.

How to return the "money" when in a A-M?
If XBW wants him back.. tell WH to return to her and fix things.
If XBW has moved on.. do everything in your power to right any wrongs (financially, emotionally..).
Live an honest life and take "sin no more" very, very seriously.

When there are children in A-M and not in first M..
Ouch.. that's a stinger.
Children should not pay for the mistakes their parents made.

Well.. fire away, everyone !

Bob, in this specific case, if the robber is really repentant, he will have to return the money to the person he stole it from. By returning the money to the original owner, the repentant robber won’t have to sin again, because returning money isn’t a sin or involve any wrongdoing to correct the previous wrongdoing. IMO a robber is not really repentant if he doesn’t return the money.

However, with a M which started off as an A, “returning” the “stolen” husband/wife to the previous “owner” (spouses in the 1st M) will involve a WRONG act e.g. divorce. God ALWAYS hates divorce (even in those extreme circumstances where He allows it/gives permission for it) and in this situation it means that the person who wants to repent will use a WRONGDOING (divorce and/or abandonment of the CURRENT spouse) to try and correct a previous wrongdoing. I don’t say that this isn’t a possibility… It can be a possibility IF the BS's from the 1st M haven’t got married again and are willing to take the previous repentant spouse back, but my point is that such an act will involve divorce from the 2nd spouses in order to get married to the 1st spouses again (in other words try to “correct” a wrong with a wrong e.g. divorce).

This won’t apply because (as I’ve stated above) a repentant robber will return the money to the previous owner and there there won't be any “stolen” money to be protected and/or which can be stolen from someone else. This isn’t necessarily the case with M’s which stem from A’s (as I stated above).

I'll drop another bomb here.
(must have left my CA side somewhere else).

I think if XBS doesn't want XWS back..
For whatever reason..
I think it's a good idea that WS's remain married to each other.
Why?
Damage control.

If WS's have not changed their behavior - still don't have the coping mechanisms to deal with emotional stuff IN a M, rather than looking for a fix outside the M...
Then I consider this M a time bomb..
And I'd rather have one, or both, of these WS's cheat on each other than on some new unsuspecting BS.
Because if they'd D, as some here suggest, to repent for their sins.. they'll move on to another partner.. but not having changed their ways, another A will be in the making.

If WS's have truely and genuinely (I love that word) moved on.. found Jesus, bettered themselves, repented..
They will have gone through he11 and back.
Because it's pretty tough facing up to your own mistakes and to the hurt you caused others.
Hence so much fog-babble and justification.
But if they really did the hard work..
And XBS has moved on and isn't interested in a reconciliation..
OK with me.
Before any OP's cry "huuurah" now: I think very few people have this amount of guts in them, to do this 180° change from self-centered, selfish behavior to altruistic behavior. But for those few that do.. OK with me. Your actions, rather than your words, will speak for you.

Though a little voice inside me tells me that WS's in the last case might feel uneasy in their M that is build upon lies, deceit and the pain of others..
And might consider THEMSELVES to end such a M.
There are stories of such decisions in the past - with both partners entering a convent, renouncing the world.
That might no longer be a thing of this time, of course.
But I guess the underlying idea is clear.

So let me just clarify your attitude suzet - you agree that the WS's that remarry should be treated as if their marrige was not affair based. I.e. you advocate absolutely zero penalty or consequences upon the WS because God hates divorce ( you assume) more than he hates unrepented affairs.

So what WS and OPs should do when they have an affair is immediately divorce so that they can claim that a subsequent divirce is ungodly, and so claim legitimacy for their affair marriage. Right ?

So if Squid had quickie divorced me then married OP within six weeks back in '94 as is legal in the UK you would be offering them marriage advice on here right now if they asked because their marriage is the lesser of many evils, right ?

Please lets be clear here. You think an afair is only an affair until the WS and OP marry then it is a marriage just as legitimate as the ones destroyed by the affair ?