I've been doing some off MB research with regard to the specific issue of remarriage when it is a case of an affair becoming a "marriage".

The root question is..what makes a person married rather than living in sustained sin?

For example. If we assume that all legal marriage is recognized as "marriage" by God and that to divorce would be wrong ..then all homosexuals who married legally would have to continue in their "marriage" or risk offense to God.

That is a situation that just doesn't work. Homosexuality is perversion by scriptural standards..it is not an acceptable option to be "married" as such.

The only solution in that case would be to leave the relationship and acknowledge that the "marriage" was not viable.

Homosexuality is clearly an objectionable behavior..the bible does not mince words with regards to it's unclean status..yet adultery was a capital offense..while homosexuality was not...so it seems skewed logic that the lesser offensive behavior could not ever be acceptable or a marriage comprised of such legitimized while the capital offense could.

My results thus far have been 50/50.

Some biblical scholars believe that while the new marriage was an ACT of sin..it does not exist in a STATE of sin. Their solution is more in line with FH. It seems to be a largely Calvinistic attitude. They should show remorse..apologise to those they have harmed and try to live out their marriage with God at the center.

The other result was that affair marriages do NOT fit the criteria for "marriage" and as such leaving the relationship does not qualify as "divorce". If the marriage was never legit..the divorce isn't either..it is merely the end of the affair.

Their solution was that the WSs should return to the original spouse if possible..if that isn't possible [say if the FBS had remarried} then they should STILL leave the "marriage" to the OP and live as a single person preferably or at least until such time as remarriage to a nonaffair partner became a possibility.

Assuming repentance has occurred and God has been established as the final vote the new nonaffair marriage could be considerred legit and not adulterous.

Responses from this resource were Arminian.

So..at the very least I can conclude that there is not consensus on this issue even while the rest of my inquiries have not yet turned up results.


*******my unsubstantiated opinion**************

It does not seem to be a question of forgiveness..it is a question of correcting the path.

Is it helpfull to advise someone in sustaining an affair?

I would say not. You can be forgiven for an offense..but that does not make the BEHAVIOR which was unacceptable become acceptable.

If an affair marriage is not a legitimate marriage but rather a continued affair then what merit is there in sustaining it?

Either it is or it is not a sick relationship.

Personally I think that it is..I think that children produced and raised in it are being raised in an unhealthy and ultimately destructive environment. Therefore in my opinion being removed form that environment is the most healthy choice in a menu that only includes bad options.

Reading JJs long list of fogbabble does nothing to argue her case for me..rather even after TEN years she sounds as entitled and full of rationalizations as any WS fresh out of the backseat. I'm not suprised by this..my own biases expect that she would HAVE to maintain that rationale in order to sustain the fantasy.

How else do we talk about his active affair in one breath and his exceptional husbandry and fatherhood in the next?

Obviously they are meant to be..this is only a bump in the road..they were right all along.

Attention affairees..the secret to your success follows.

1 Get knocked up if you possibly can. Children cement relationships.

2 Just stick it out..your affair will BECOME legit and acceptable with the magical passage of time.

3 Learn to couple your pretense of remorse with the disclaimer/clause that..well we're married NOW so..how can we make it great/repair the hurts/create a healthy home for our children. This will help the fixers and sympathizers of the world swallow the foulness that your marriage is rooted in because they are allowed to acknowledge that root..but with the promise of sweetness inside if only they'll climb aboard.

Oh wait..you don't need that intel [slaps forehead] because I'm reading straight from the WS handbook AP version updated and copyrighted.

Yes, the ignore button is handy feature...people who can't conduct themselves in a respectful, helpful manner make my my list. People who repeatedly make me the target of their own anger and resentment make my list.



If I'm unable to offer those folks respectful, helpful advice, then yes, I stay out of their business.



In JJ's case, or anyone else's case besides your spouse, it's not "avoidance". I'm not trying to build or preserve any kind of intimate relationship with this person.


You can speak up all you want...what you SHOULD not do is take someone's request for help as an opportunity to pour out your own disgust at them. IMHO...that is abusive. (Don't give me the old "well, isn't her affair abusive?" - this isn't eye for an eye)



Now you're headed down a completely different road.

You are talking about affair adultery...and it's clear that you consider an affair marriage to be ongoing adultery. I can accept that...that's your opinion.

I don't happen to share that view. I believe those people are now MARRIED and should receive help to make that marriage work.

Don't confuse affair marriages with affairs...they are very different.

Let me share something with you from my point of view...

I think a SIGNIFICANT number of BS's who come here for help have significant mental and emotional issues ... that drive them behave the way they do and probably contributed to the destruction of their marriage. I sometimes ask myself why anyone would want to be married to this person. I sometimes wonder if these folks haven't "invited" all this drama and pain upon themselves.

But do you think I'm helping anyone to tell them I think they're nuts and no sane person would want to be married to them? Of course not. It would cruel and abusive of me to do this to broken people in pain. I try to limit my comments to helping them see how their WS or FWS is seeing things...because that's the perspective I offer.

I believe JL and FH have both made excellent cases for why JJ should be helped.

So, my position is that these folks ARE married...and, in JJs case, well aware that the crows came home to roost...she doesn't need your help getting that.

It is cruel and abusive to tell her that she doesn't deserve help.

So, to my original position...unless you think what you have to offer will help her situation...leave her alone, and for your own sake...hit ignore. Move along.

I like & agree with your way of thinking Low Orbit!
(Except for using the ignore button, I feel everyone's
responces should be read.)

And I agree with you and Suzet that foreverhers
has it Biblically correct.

Dorry (kind-hearted Dorry) wrote this on another thread:

Re: Why being a FWS sucks... [Re: Improving]
#2773923 - 07/28/05 04:56 PM

"(((HUGS))) improving

You are NOT defined by your past - live for today and tomorrow - you are not who you were then - you are who you are now - keep up the journey and the changes and be the best woman you can be. Make amends for your mistakes, and learn to forgive yourself."

(Dorry)

No, I don’t t say or advocate that God hates divorce more than he hates unrepented A’s.

No.

I don’t view M’s which stem from A’s and where the infidels is not repentant, as lesser of many evils.

No…you twist my words and try to lay words in my mouth again Bob… What I HAVE said is that such a M can become legitimate in the eyes of God if or when the infidels TRULY become newly-converted or new-born Christians and therefore receive God’s forgiveness, grace and mercy for their past sins. IMO this process will include repentance from the infidels to God and repentance to their past victims e.g. the betrayed spouses from their 1st marriages. But IMO this process will not necessarily include divorce to their current spouses and stay unmarried or return to the previous spouses…it will depend on the circumstances…but it can certainly be an option…and although God ALWAYS hates divorce IMO, I can see why He would allow/give permission for another divorce under such circumstances e.g. for the repentant WS to return to the BS and marry the BS again.

Post deleted by mkeverydaycnt

The education that produced that thinking has a divinity degree, degrees in psychology, philosophy, religion, English, and a masters degree from the University of Iowa Writer's Workshop.
And oh yes, a life's education that understands that ongoing malicious vindictive behavior that passes judgement, tears apart the dignity of other people, sits around all smug and stinking in its own $hit while sqwaking loudly about the mistakes of other is, is in my opinion a condensed word...BULLPUCKY.

So some of you, get over yourself, get off of the pedestal you have put yourselves on and quit all of the condemnation and bullying of someone who recognizes their mistakes and wants to make things right.

Sheesh, it would different if she came here and gloated about how her marriage began and rubbed your faces in it.

The woman has showed humility, understanding and has responded with dignity to the attacks upon her life, her character and her situation.

Enough already with the personal attacks on her and anyone who disagrees with you. I must say, I do respect the true Christian perspective which involves a whole lot more compassion for other people than what many of you are showing. If you are bullying and condemning from that perspective, maybe you need to go back and read the words in red a few more times.

Firstly, I haven’t create a world where A’s deserve more credibility than a mistake. I also don’t believe A’s deserve more credibility than a mistake. Just to make that clear…

Secondly, YOU were the initiator of this conversation. If you choose not to get involved in this type of discussion with me then WHY on earth have you directed a response to me with questions, insults, disrespectful judgments and false assumptions & accusations? Did you expect me to stay silent about it and not respond to you while you have also said disrespectful things (and made false assumptions) about me behind my back to ForeverHers? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Not true… I view this as another insult, false assumption and disrespectful judgement from you.

And the disrespectful judgements, insults and false assumptions & accusations continue on... Where on earth have I ever said that “an A is nothing more than a cancer in the life of everyone it touches” or felt that way? How on earth do YOU know how I truly feel/felt mkeverydaycnt?

Again, my opinions are based on the quotes from a website on “Biblical Divorce and Re-marriage” you will find on this post. My POV and interpretations on this topic happens to be in line with the author.

The same here…as long as you stop insulting me and throw disrespectful judgments my way…and as long as you stop making false and inaccurate assumptions about me while you don’t even personally know me. I’ve never treated you disrespectfully or discussed you behind your back so please don't do that with me.

Thanks.

There is nothing wrong with "divorce" in an affair marriage because they were not morally married in the first place. Although they may have to legally divorce, morally it is more like an annulment.

However, I agree with a previous poster that in cases where there are children from the affair marriage and none from the first marriage, children should not have to pay for their parents' wrongdoing.

My dearest Suzet...

Someone asked me why I promote the use of the "ignore" feature...

You just made a wonderful case for it. You don't have to see these disrespectful judgements and insults...

I never discussed you behind your back... I have never had a conversation or communication with FH off these boards.

What you see as a DJ on my part, I see it as my merely having the ability to have read your posts in the past... I will refrain from communicating with you on this subject. Obviously Suzet, I have an issue with a repeat FWS offering an opinion that an A marriage can be legitimate. I find YOUR inclusion in that discussion to be an issue for me. If ML or BP had voiced the same opinion, I would have given it more credibility and looked at it more closely.... coming from you it seems to lack a sensitivity and genuineness.

Excellent point from the previous poster and I agree with this 200%.

I wonder…all the people who believes that JJ must divorce her current H and the father of her children…how do they think this will affect those innocent children if she would indeed leave him?

Suzet,
I agree 100% with your posts. You have Biblically backed up your belief. God is a God of mercy and forgiveness.

I would measure the damage of leaving against the damage that I believe living in an affair marriage is also causing.

Again..this is not a situation which I believe is healthy from a moral, ethical, or practical position.

In my opinion leaving would be a better choice in a selection of bad choices..basically..she and her OM have CREATED a situation in which her children will be harmed regardless..I vote let the harm be in correcting the misjudgement rather than sustaining it.

No…you twist my words and try to lay words in my mouth again Bob

Suzet I am doing NOTHING of the sort. I am using the tried technique of applying what I perceive is your intended logic to a different sitiuation to see if you will defend it there also.

Reading your response here I think I might actually agree with your central tenet - that if a spouse in an affair marriage repents and does ALL POSSIBLE to make amends to all injured parties then staying in a REMORSEFUL AND REPENTED affair marriage is the best thing to do amongst a raft of bad things to do.

But I remind you here of Pep's insight that if her H had not cheated she might well be espousing an affair as the way to bag yourself a dream husband on TOW or similar.

For me personally as a BS, I could never risk adding to the hurt of another BS by helping an affair marrige spouse to build a stronger affair marriage. Unless I was utterly certain that the BS was in agreement with it. Personal opinion only.

Of course you did….you’ve made false assumptions and accusations about me to FH. I view it as “behind my back” because you haven’t talked with me on this thread, but about me...and specifically made false assumptions and accusations about me (this is what I’m most concerned about).

No, you feel ‘entitled’ and think you have the ‘authority’ to make false assumptions, accusations & judgments about me which are based on YOUR personal (and false) opinion about me after the recent mistake I’ve made (contact with OM) and the relapse I had because of it. Luckily you are NOT God and is in no position to judge me…especially since you don’t know me personally.

Then you should have not posted about it in the first place.

Again, you feel ‘entitled’ and think you have the ‘authority’ to judge me and make false assumption & judgments about me after my recent mistake and relapse.

Oh well… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Luckily you are not God or someone who knows me personally & intimately enough to judge me as “insensitive” and “false/not genuine”. In fact, you don't know me at ALL if you truly belief this...

EXACTLY, this is my point. I'm glad we agree on something regarding this topic Bob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can understand this 100% Bob. I don't 'condone' A marriages either... All I was trying to do is to show that their can be forgivness, mercy and grace from God for the infidels in such a M either IF they truly repent and (as you've said) do ALL POSSIBLE to make amends to all injured parties.

Hey Suzet... shove it. I don't need a repeat WS telling me about being entitled. You seemed to have that covered. I told you that I had an issue with your inclusion and therfore would refrain from discussing this with you... but if you want to continue on your attack... shove it. I have the "authority" to state my opinion... I did...and then I was willing to look at why I felt a certain way about your inclusion in this discussion considering your recent "relapse." And you are right... I don't know you at all... I only know that you are a repeat FWS and I felt that your inclusion in this...especially so close to your "relapse"... was a bit insensitive. That is JMO.

You ask me to shove it while YOU started the “attack” on ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You felt you had the ‘right’ to make assumptions, accusations & judgments about me so I felt I had the ‘right’ to defend myself and correct your false assumptions, accusations & judgments about me either... That’s all.

Okay, now I will shove it (unless you start with your accusations, assumptions and judgements again).

Thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

MEDC,
Suzet has not attacked you! Your words show such bitterness against her. I have seen you continually attack her stand and of course Suzet is going to defend herself. I agree with her belief 100%, and there are others on this thread that believe the same. God forgives. God shows mercy. How about you?

WOW, this thread has grown since I last visited it. Now what was it originally about? Oh yeah, the bad treatment JJ was getting here on MB. Never even heard of JJ before this particular thread so I can't even comment on that.

Concerning her present M, I don't have a friggin clue. Kids are involved now so it would be in their best interest for this M to be saved if possible. As far as an OP who Med their A partner posting here for advice? Nope, I don't like it. Not saying someone like JJ shouldn't seek out help. Find a good IC or MC. Go for it! I just think it's asking a lot of the people here, particularly BSs, who have gone through what we've gone through. It seems JJ from what she wrote actually might understand this herself.

If MB is open to helping affair Ms, let's just have it be a place to teach MB skills. Seriously! I would prefer that, and let's leave out all the advice about Plan Aing, Plan Bing, etc. Why advocate that to a BS who is desperately trying to break up their WS's A, when that person can then read the great advice given to the WS and OP who have since Med. it just doesn't jive for this BS. Once again I'll say I'm not that spiritually evolved yet.

LO, I can't get to your post to reread it cause I'm kind of stupid with computers. I know I'll end up erasing what I just wrote. I just know my gut twisted a bit when I read what your wrote. I hate to tell you this but many Ms were pretty good when hit by an A. I am not saying all BSs are perfect angels. Yet in at least one affair book it says most WSs are the ones in the M who gave the least in the M pre-A. It is the WS who decided to make the unhealthiest choice they could possibly make in regards to his/her M. So please, can we not blame the BS for bringing on the A? As a BS I will gladly admit to any pre-A issues I may have contributed to. I absolutely refuse to take any responsibility for H boinking OW for months.