I was recently reading a story in the LA Times about a teenage skin-head white-supremacy advocate who (when he was older & after serving time in prison) changed his stripes and is now an oft invited speaker for the Museum Of Tolerance, here in Los Angeles.

He was being sent to speak to a group of at-risk youth, and was being pared up with a gay man who had been viciously brutalized by a group of skinheads...

and you may have guessed, they soon discovered that one had been the other's real-life victim many, many years ago.

Their story, I found to be very inspiring, and very remarkable.

I will see if I can locate a link.

I had forgoten this story until I read your quote above.

And, I do agree with your quote. I think it takes extraordinary circumstances to bring victim and perp together in peaceful co-existance ... there is a lesson here .... I am searching for it as well.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

...... off to look for link

Pair Form Unlikely Team to Fight Prejudice
A former neo-Nazi and the gay man he once left bloodied on a street tell their stories at the Museum of Tolerance.
By Anna Gorman, Times Staff Writer
July 10, 2006

The LATimes won't let me link this ... but you can easily google this & see the article for yourself.

[color:"red"]>>> the actual link located on WAT's post about 7 below this one<<<[/color]

I am interested in your views.

Thanks

Pep

I appreciate the last line of the story ....

[color:"blue"] "We did not get here overnight," Zaal said. "It was many, many years of pain, and anguish, and growth."
[/color]

so true

Pep

When I think about this article & then try & overlay the principle relative to affair marriages seeking support on MB .... here's where I go ....

If JustJilly had demonstrated an epiphany that adultery is BAD in ALL circumstances, even adultery that leads to a marriage with children, before she herself became a victim of adultery ... I'd know she was a fully repentant and profoundly changed woman.


She's not here because of a profound change in her thinking ... she is here because her adultery-marriage has made her very , very miserable.

If she had not been a victim of adultery, she might be on TOW right this minute, proclaiming "Well, our marriage was meant to be. It worked out fine for us."

She has had a change in her circumstances, NOT a change in her belief system ... as far as I can tell.

Pep

Pepperband, thanks for sharing that story of exceptional forgiveness.

I have always admired and am inspired by these kind of people.

On Dr Phil, he had the story of a man that felt he HAD to forgive the man that had shot and killed his only son.

He started writing and visiting this man in prison and they actually became friends. AMAZING.

And something I haven't been able to forget, this same man that forgave the murderer of his son, said he still has trouble forgiving the small things in his life.

Go figure!

P.S. Edited to ask; what does TA mean?

P.S.S. Another edit, I just read what you wrote concerning JustJilly. SHE WILL NEED TO ANSWER THAT as ONLY SHE has the answers to what you are referring to. True?

so ............

TogetherAlone, I really think you are right on with your analysis ... as far as I can tell with the amount of information we have...

thanks TA, much appreciated your thoughts

Pep

Interesting, Pep. And appropriate.

My XW and OM (her best friend's H) married 5 months after our divorce. They're approaching their 4th "anniversary".

I consider their marriage to be illegitimate and hypocritical.

They still claim they did not have an affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Why would they claim this? Think about it.

Because just maybe it might "soil" their marriage? Hmmmmmmm?

IF they could come clean and with humility seek the forgiveness of all whom they harmed (and maybe give me back my retirement savings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) some collective growth and betterment for the children could occur. Perpetrators and victims could benefit alike. Legitimacy could be attained.

I'm not holding my breath.

WAT

We shall see.
I'd be more easily convinced of her anti-adultery conversion if it had occured ~before~ she became a victim herself !...

time will tell

thanks for posting

Pep

WAT if you could find a way to link the actual article ... that might be nice
>bat my eyes alluringly<

Pair Form Unlikely Team to Fight Prejudice

You're welcome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

precisely

"Perpetrators and victims could benefit alike. Legitimacy could be attained."


this was the entire point of the article

Pep

This is almost exactly what I said to Noodle in an offboard conversation we had. To come clean, apologize and make ammends (ie your moola included)to those you harmed and seek forgiveness from your victims and from (in my beliefs)God, is IMHO the only way an affair based marriage will ever be something legitimate and succesful. Otherwise, you are building on sand.

Pep, when I read that story I was reminded of Corey Ten Boom when one of her former Nazi prison guards sought her forgiveness and wanted to shake her hand. It was a very touching moment.

Thanks for the link...fascinating story. The bit that really got to me was when Zaal's son used the n-word, and people around were disgusted. You can just FEEL the moment of shame, for his small son to be despised by the world on account of things his father had taught him. I wonder how many moments like that had happened, where Zaal was able to suppress the moment of discomfort, before this one got to him? I wonder how many people manage to get through their whole lives suppressing those prods of conscience. It takes a brave man to let himself face the feelings, and leave an extreme fixed position.


Absolutely. And the penny hasn't dropped yet, has it?

BUT...where is the best place for her to be...on TOW where there would be a chorus of support and no insight whatever into the reasons for her misery...or on an MB infidelity forum where she can see how much damage is caused by people like herself, and has at least a chance of awakening her conscience and working out how she's damaged herself.

It will be interesting to see how it develops, won't it?

TA

sure'nuf TA

pep

If JustJilly had demonstrated an epiphany that adultery is BAD in ALL circumstances, even adultery that leads to a marriage with children, before she herself became a victim of adultery ... I'd know she was a fully repentant and profoundly changed woman.


She's not here because of a profound change in her thinking ... she is here because her adultery-marriage has made her very , very miserable.

If she had not been a victim of adultery, she might be on TOW right this minute, proclaiming "Well, our marriage was meant to be. It worked out fine for us."

She has had a change in her circumstances, NOT a change in her belief system ... as far as I can tell

In my indignation I was not able to find words to describe how I felt about this. You have found words that express my sentiments on this exactly.

Thanks. I need say no more.

and...........

she may actually cause MORE damage to some hurting souls HERE!

lest we forget

I am more mindful of the hurting already here as a result of women such as she....

Pep,

I'm struggling with this whole thing in real life....and it's really an awful thing. My parents had alot of conflict in their marriage. Father was verbally, sometimes physically abusive. He's a surgeon and he became emotionally (and then physically) involved with one of his nurses (he'd been unfaithful before....but this was more serious). Of course they were "just friends", never had an affair, parents marriage was already "over"....blah blah and a bunch of bulldunky. Everybody knew the truth, but they still to this day deny it. They dated/lived together for several years, and finally got married. The OW is exactly my age and twenty years younger than my father. They had twins, and shortly after that, my mother was diagnosed with cancer.

One of the weird things was that my dad visited my mother every day....they had a very strong bond. My mother actually forgave my father and she adored the twins. She and the OW were never friends, but they made their peace. While I was caring for her in her last months....my dad came everyday....(his wife came often too in her capacity as a nurse....and sometimes gave her medication if she needed it....they were very helpful.

I had many disturbing thoughts about the OW....she seemed like a vulture waiting for my mother die....waiting for that last thread of connection to be severed with my father. I think she's thrilled that my handicapped sister is out of their lives too (she's with me now). I hated her, thought she was the one who deserved to be eaten up with cancer....and I can remember my mother saying "don't hate star....hate poisons the vessel that harbors it."

Now my mother is gone, and my family is broken. If not for my two new siblings (twins)....who are darling wonderful children....I would have no contact with these two people at all. I remain civil to their mother....out of respect for their feelings....but little else. I feel as though I would be disrespecting my mother to have any real relationship with this person considering her part in my mother's pain. I struggle with the knowledge that one day, when the twins are older....I will undoubtedly be truthful about my father's marriage to their mother and I don't look forward to that day or how it will affect our relationship.

As an aside, my mother had wonderful woman who worked for her for 25 years....up until the minute she died....they had become old friends by then. She also worked for my father....cleaning his office....so when my mother passed away, he insisted she come and help his new wife or she'd lose her office job and benefits. She was so loyal to my mother....that it killed her to be in this other house. She called his wife Miss <first name>. One day, his wife said "I don't want you to call me by my first name, it's not professional. I'd like you to call me Mrs.<Jones>. My mother's friend looked her right in the eyes and said "There was only ONE Mrs. Jones....and she died". She walked out...never looked back. She visited me just about a month or so ago.....I still have great love for her.....she's doing fine!

So I am struggling with the forgiveness issue because I don't want to lose contact with my little brother and sister who don't deserve the stigma of their origins. I know my mother reached that place before she died....but I'm not there yet. I'm not harboring a bunch of hate or anger anymore....but I still have a viseral reaction to seeing them together.

Still....I think I'm far enough along to offer some truthful but respectful words to folks like justjilly. I don't want the cycle to continue....and for these unions to create more messed up people who aren't healthy enough to make real commitments and respect the sanctity of marriage. It's a challenge.

Thanks for the article!! I pretty sure I saw the episode about these two men, but I'm glad to be reminded!!

This thread is a balm for the soul... because it opens a discussion about **what we can do** as a community to support those who need it... yet protect those who might be hurt BY the subject and/or the poster.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of remorse and repentance BEFORE the misery of infidelity in an affair marriage... and wonder how that would matter to someone who believes that all subsequent marriages are not valid. I don't think it would matter, actually. But to those who hold open the *possibility* -- this is very hopeful.

PS and edit: In re-reading this thread more fully, including the link from WAT, I am ... moved beyond words.

Thank you...

Do you know, I'd kind of forgotten this...

...I'm so used to having my feelings ignored, minimised, laughed at (parents, not H), so used to 'having' to look out for others (ie mother)...

...I sometimes forget I'm allowed to look out for myself.

Thanks for the reminder.

TA