Lemonman had an OBLIGATION to give the case to another doctor if he felt he couldn't do it. He felt he could do it, though. What would be WRONG would be for him to attempt to help someone he knew he could not help. However, if he were the ONLY doctor there who could have saved this patient, he would have been immoral to allow him to die unaided.

However, that is not the correct analogy because JJ is not a wounded patient and we are not doctors. It is not an analogous situation.

The high cost of SELF DELUSION, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

...unless you believe that all of us have a moral obligation to help our fellow man/woman in any way we can.

Am I reaching here??? probably.

That would be a good discussion... what is worse, physical or emotional/psychic wounds.


...but that dilemma is generally personal... their own issues to deal with. It has not changed whether the patient deserves help.


I don't think I've ever said this. I certainly don't believe it. Again, my arguments are more about whether the person deserves to or should be helped on this forum... not who is best suited to help. I guess if noone is willing or suited to help, then obviously she has come to the wrong place.

Shaden

I'll agree to disagree on this one.

Giving help can simply be pointing a person in the right direction to where proper help can be given... like I read on here all the time when people suggest calling Dr. Harley. It don't take a brain surgeon for that help.

Shaden

Anyway... I'm not sure I know what I believe anymore... it's gotten to the point where I am arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like to lose. This is not an issue that should be about winning and losing and I've brought it to that point... atleast with myself.

I'll stop now. Have a great weekend, Mel.

Shaden

I like your way of thinking, Shaden and decided I should tell you that.

Although Just Jilly did not come here with physical wounds, she came here crying for help with emotional wounds.

If we say she deserved what she got, then we all deserve the same. "For we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Instead she was told (first post of the justjilly thread)
"she really had no place here"

Oh well, when she returns from vacation she can defend herself! (If she wants to.)

WE can't help everyone; to think otherwise is arrogant. I don't imagine that I can go perform surgery on a heart patient. I do not have the resources and/or am not the most qualified person. Its the same with many situations here. I cannot relate, for whatever reason, so I have nothing to offer. We DO NOT HAVE an obligation to help every person on this forum, moral or otherwise.

And of course there is difference between physical and phschic wounds. One can die from one and not the other. If JJ were laying on the ground bleeding and we didn't render her aid we would be a murderer. Not so if we walk away from someone who is experiencing emotional trauma. I think the difference and the subsequent dramatically different moral dilemmas are patently obvious so please lets not waste time on such an unworkable moral equation.


...but that dilemma is generally personal... their own issues to deal with. It has not changed whether the patient deserves help.[/quote]

I don't know what this means at all. Or how it is relevant. A counselor must take a pass if she doesn't think she can help or has an ethical conflict. The reason I brought this up is to demonstate that even the trade believes it is right to excuse themselves or take a pass if warranted. Not even professionals believe they are qualified to help EVERYONE.


I don't think I've ever said this. I certainly don't believe it. Again, my arguments are more about whether the person deserves to or should be helped on this forum... not who is best suited to help. I guess if noone is willing or suited to help, then obviously she has come to the wrong place.

Shaden [/quote]

Right.

Shiela, thanks for your input a few posts back.

I'm not sure if you are aware or not that the issue I was discussing was about someone who is in an Adulterous Marriage... and now there S... the OM from her 1st M... is having another A.

Many on here question whether we should be helping this person... it is painful to BS's, it is contradictory to say that all A's are wrong and will end poorly and then help someone who is in an A Marriage, and some argue that the A Marriage is not a real marriage because of it's origins. How can such a person be helped is the question. To do so could be condoning her original A. It is a sensitive, tricky issue. I'm not sure that my arguments are correct. I just know that I have a tendency to give help where its needed regardless of the situations behind. This is not right for all people... and may not be morally correct for me to do so... if I am aiding the sinful nature of the original A. I don't have the answers... just trying to find out by arguing one side. Sometimes, through my arguments, I change my own mind.

But, as I said in my last post, when it turns into a competition (with myself), it is hard for me to be objective.

But you can't disagree rationally, Shaden. Because one is murder and the other is clearly not. It would be ludicrous to call forum members "murderers" becaues they excused themselves, believing they were not qualified to help. The patient did not DIE. Honestly, you may have a valid point here, but it does not help your point by making such a moral equation becuase it is such a gross exaggeration.

Shaden, just wanted to make sure you noticed my post
to you, above Mel's.

I wanted you to know your thoughts here are valuable and appreciated!

Mel said...



And quoting your own words... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

IWRA

Thanks for your aprreciation and input.

I'm not really upset that Mel is disagreeing with me... sometimes you have to talk a little longer and slower to those from Texas. They're still working on how to pass our Sr. Citizens in the big cars. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Shaden

that may be something being discussed on other threads ... but not this one!

NOT my intention AT ALL!

Pep

I left the other thread because it became a mainly biblical discussion. By the standards of most people I'd be an atheist - by atheists, though, I would be considered a believer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Go figure !

The day after D-Day I asked OW (who had been my best friend for 15 years) to come over and talk to me and WH. I needed answers. She was very remorseful, at that point anyways. She was very scared and ashamed. Remember this was the woman who thought "she wasn't doing anything wrong because it felt so good" - until I found out.
She was, so to speak, "bleeding on the floor".
In fact I knew there was a real possibility that she would smash her car into a tree when she would go home, if I would have blown up on her at that time.

Can you imagine the situation?
One day after I found a video of her and WH, having sex in all positions on MY couch?

I tell you - a strange thing happened. I felt like I was lifted up. I was calm and together. I saw her distress, and realised she was in danger of hurting herself. Nothing, and I mean nothing, in me was saying "well, I don't care if you do."
I spoke calmly.
I got my answers, I saw two people sitting there like two children who had been found out.
I felt sad but calm.
She got home in one piece.
I felt that what I call "the unseen force that works through all things" supporting me and giving me the strenght to do the right thing.
Needless to say that all the hurt and pain was only to start after that - but I was prevented from lashing out in my pain and causing great damage (like leaving someone to die).

When there really is an emergency - I know I will do what I have to do. Without gnashing my teeth.
I need OW/ex-BF to stay out of my life. The friendship died and that pained me deeply. But I will not cause hurt myself: I will not be lowered to such actions.

NBII

I have tremendous respect for you .... you have earned that....

plus

you're funny!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We can't discuss those moral questions if we are wasting our time on unworkable moral EQUATIONS that only divert frm the the subject at hand, It is a distraction to try and equate MURDER with walking away from this situation, don't ya think?

If you recall, I didn't have the answers yet either. When I first started posting on MB I probably would have helped her out a little right off the bat. I had/have the same tendency to blindly assist you have but now I'm trying to look a little deeper and ask "do I give them what they want or what they need". Anyway, if no one had posted a response to JJ at all (back in early July on the JFO board) I likely would have thrown her some crumbs to get the thread going and give it some momentum. I would have done this as I care about MB. However, I NEVER REFUSESED to help her...I merely abstained while I actively sought answers to this very moral dilemna. Eventually if JJ ended up asking the right questions and demonstrating that full marital recovery versus a quick fix was what she wanted I bet by that time I would have been ready to jump in...until then, there were hundreds of MB posters to give her the basics to deal with her WH's infidelity.

Finally, if JJ had asked a tax law question or some other legal question I probably would have helped. I have specific training and knowledge not possessed by everyone here (like the surgeon in your example)...I would have felt more compelled. For example, say JJ showed up at 3 am complaining that her husband filed a complaint against Child Protective Services and she had no idea what to do, the police were coming and she desparately called out on MB for support. I'd give it to here.

Mr. W

*As I recall, Lemonman probably should have reclused himself based upon the potential for litigation. I am certain had his hospital KNOWN the personal details they would have tried to stop Lem. Lem felt the most qualified doctor available at that moment in that hospital to handle the matter. If he had such confidence in another doctor there he likely would have walked away. He was a huge risk for him to take on top of the moral delimna of assisting his perpetrator. Lem's gots some cajones. If OM had died on the table and his family KNEW the whole story ...the sharks (not me) would have had a feeding frenzy. If Lem had made a accidental slip up (Dr.'s are human and it was not your typical unemotional operation I bet) perhaps even a few people might speculate he did it intentionally...all it takes is one person to say something like that...and it blows out of proportion.

This thread is/was MY WAY of working out what MY decision might be ... I do this where others might also offer me input as I muddle through this dilemma .... the linked article was to let others know what my reference point was ~~~> exceptional forgiveness is POSSIBLE

and also takes YEARS of "hard work and pain"

........ this was MY thread to help ME

and if it helped YOU Shaden I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am grateful that TogetherAlone got me thinking with that quote on my first post.

Take care

Pep

Shaden ...

your ER senario (which, as a medical professional, I say ... is NOT a good fit ... but I'll run with it anyway)

the situation is ....

you are ALREADY caring for patient #1, who is NEAR DEATH from his wounds .... (suicidal thoughts, like you had)

the paramedics bring in a new patient.... the very ONE who stabbed patient #1

are you going to abandon patient #1 in order to care for patient #2 ?

are you going to put them in beds NEXT to each other ?

patient #1 feels more morose and depressed with patient #2 next to him

patient #1 wants to kill himself AGAIN after seeing patient #2 get better much faster than he ever will ....

........ now what?

MY issue is NOT who "deserves help".... for ME the issue is ....


if I help #2 .... do I in essence re-injure #1 ????

I think I might .... so I say "not me"

Pep