Hi Lemonman,

How r u? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I enjoy reading your posts in the past.

I agree with your logic and decision. Because I respect your POVs, I would like to ask, if it wasn't your job what would u do? Just curious.....no hidden agenda for asking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

[color:"red"] (Last child support payment)
[/color]

he's 18 already??????

REALLY ?

whoa !

Party @ WATs

Pep

WAT, congrats!
Are U coming to the virtual BBQ down under to celebrate?
What beer shall I bring from Belgium for you ?

Hi Lemonman,
good to "read" you again.
I didn't know this part of your story - my respect to you.
Even if it was "just your job".

Pep - yup, 18 on Wednesday. I had to pay one day of CS for Aug. Off to college next.

brownie - you bet, bring any Belch beer you want! Yum!

WAT

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> my niece's friend is Welsh..
I brought them some Leffe on my visit to Wales, last May.
He liked it a lot but was surprised at the "power" contained in that bottle.. nothing like other beers !
So - you have been warned <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> !

Er.. Belch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> beer?
Well.. it might make you do that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> !

Belch - an old (bad) joke.

What language do they speak in France? French.
What language do they speak in Belgium? Belch.

Haven't tried Leffe. Probably can't get it here, so please bring some. Most US beers are lacking IMHO. But this means you can drink more of them and remember it.

WAT

Yes - that CAN be a problem with Belgian beer !
Some very, very, strong stuff in there.
There even is one called Duvel (Devil).
I just to drink 4 of them on one evening, then one glass of red port. And be absolutely clear headed.
But then again, I was 20 years younger at that time !
I prefer Leffe now (1 max).
Or wodka, on occasion (once a year <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

About the Belch - I didn't know that joke, but it sounds like it's reallllly old indeed !
(I actually speak Flemish <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.)

I've had some time to reflect and here is what I think I know that I don't know... or what I learned that I still have to learn... something like that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


- From the original quote on this thread..."For a perpetrator to expect help from a victim community that she has to some extent helped to create, is cruel/naive/optimistic/insensitive...or just desperate."... without realizing it, I believe I was focusing on the possible "naive" part in the JJ case. That 10 years ago, she may not have had the excellent help we have from this forum and other places. That the fog talk has convinced her she is right. What I've learned from FWW on here, is that during this fog talk, all reason goes out the window. You focus on your own pain and needs and justify, justify, justify. Maybe I was saying to give her a chance to see and understand (for the 1st time???) the affects of her actions from years ago. How this is now fixed... I have no idea. How someone can be naive and ignorant of the pain and selfishness of an A 10 years later, I don't know... is it possible?... maybe a FWW can answer that one from their own feelings and experience during the fog.

- After my final post yesterday, I wondered how I got down the path I did yesterday... how this thread about a news article got tied to the JJ case. I went back and looked and found this...

Pep said...


And then my first statement on the thread...



How I got to talking about Doctors and MB members murdering others, I'm not quite sure... but my original question or observation I think was a good one. Again, goes to the possible naive nature of the situation. JJ cannot change her behavior until her beliefs change. Possibly she has not had a reason to change her beliefs (No good Plan A or Plan B from 1st H) until the pain of this new situation has caused her to rethink her behavior... or it may just cause her to dig her heels in further and continue to justify. I'm not suggesting it is the 1st H's responsibility to alter or establish JJ's moral compass... but without the right consequences, sometimes we don't realize our actions are wrong.

- I also looked back at my first post on this thread and its reference to one of Mel's posts. I was in agreement with her, and yet, she disagreed with my agreement right after. I'm not sure how that happened or why... Texan logic, I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

- Lemonman... thanks for stopping by and answering my question. I would infer something from your statement... you said "I don't make the moral decision to ever save a life....it is my job, my oath to do so." I would suggest that you made the moral decision when you took your oath. That oath, whatever the wording, I would think implies that all humans are worthy of being helped regardless of the circumstances behind their need... and it is your duty to do so. You may not have consciously thought of that when your practiced instincts took over... but you consciously made that decision when you took your oath.

- Someone else on here (this thread or another, I can't remember) made a comment about always protecting yourself first before help can be given... don your own gas mask first... This, in my estimation, is the main argument here against providing help for JJ. That she can be helped or is worthy of help, the factor I said I was arguing for... is probably not what most of you are arguing... it is that many of us on this board are still fighting for air ourselves... and not equipped or ready to handle this new "threat". And this, I understand, is your main argument against my Doctor example... they are trained and equipped and expected to help... we are not.

- Is it really considered murder if a Doctor does not give help. If it is a choice not to help... I guess I can see that... but in Lemonman's situation, I could also imagine many people "freezing up" and unable to effectively help. Would this be considered murder?... or human frailty? The fact, Lemonman, that you did not freeze up shows to me, contrary to what you might think, a very courageous, strong person... either that or you had the gas mask on yourself just prior and didn't know what you were doing.

- On other threads it has turned into a Biblical debate. I haven't wanted to take the time to read thoroughly what is being said, but I am confused about one thing. I believe I am reading that there is a difference in the effect of the Adulterous Marriage depending on whether or not it was a Christian-based marriage... or rather, an A M cannot be Christian-based, so it is not a M. If so, would it be considered an A if the couple is just in a common-law relation... or married through a Justice of the Peace? What about cheating on a BF or GF? If the 1st M was a common-law M which was ended as a result of an A... and the second was an A Marriage... would the second be ok to help because the first wasn't really a M? I don't think that most on this thread are thinking along this line... but that whole logic has given me a migraine.

- One final point on this long post. I'm trying to discover within myself my reasons for arguing to help JJ. Is this my own beliefs being brought up in a church and home which stressed helping others first? Is it my need to know that I can forgive and am transferring this to another situation to prove it? Is it my "nice guy" syndrome raising its ugly head again... directing me in a situation where I can look good to others rather than meeting my own needs first? Is it a lack of disdain and understanding of the full ugly nature of an A... even after facing my own pain? There might be many other reasons... which I think I need to figure out. This could be key to my own growth.

For any of you who actually read through this post... thanks for making it to the end. For the rest of you... well, you probably were able to save these few minutes and spend it on something more worthwhile.

Shaden

Shaden

I just LOVED your last post !!!!!!

*kiss*

It's very exciting to read your inner dialogue ... seeing the path of your struggle with this dilemma ....

I don't need to agree with you nor do I need to disagree with you

what I do see is YOU working something out for yourself rather than reactively trying to control other people's answers !

I LOVE that

Pep

I just got "kissed" from Pep... I'll never wash my computer screen again!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for the encouragement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shaden

Shaden

truth be told

the only people I trust when it comes to this particular dilemma

are the ones who feel conflicted

the ones who are solidly cemented in their opinion about 'how this SHOULD be handled'

are suspicious in my own mind

this issue is not an obvious straight line from A to B

geometry fails here

the side-trips in our own minds are the more productive when trying to find our way

be suspicious of someone telling others what to feel when the situation is multi-layered and all gooey like this one is

... for example

go back & read Starfish's post very early on this thread...

she is HUGELY conflicted about this

and she is acutely aware of how her own previous hurtful experience is pulling on her to REACT rather than to think

it's illuminating

instead of reading people's words so closely

try reading it as if they were a child in a grown-up's body

sometimes that helps me understand

Pep

I was also acutely aware, even while I was arguing yesterday, that the Wonderings stated their conflict and time spent trying to sort this out between themselves. I do feel guilty for inferring that they were being insensitive. I definitely do not feel that way.

I guess I got caught up in a debate and trying to win and forgot about the people behind the thoughts.

I always did realize this is a sensitive, tricky issue. My words, possibly, were meant to try and convince myself of something... and I made it sound like my view was right and the rest of you were selfish. That is not what I truly believe. Next time I will view it as a discussion which respects and ponders different viewpoints, rather than a debate which tries to convince others of your own view point.

Starfish is very eloquent in her words... thanks for directing me back to that place.

On another thread, someone commented they felt Believer would assist JJ... and in the way they described the situation, I couldn't help but get a picture of Reba in my mind.

Shaden

You tricky foreign devils cannot fool a Texan, my fine foreign friend!! You were saying you agreed with the stance of the Wonderings but then went onto to liken it to a doctor walking away from a wounded patient! If that is not silly foreign devil double speak, I dont know what is!! I know guys named BUBBA who could shoot holes in that! From 200 yards! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Well, I think you are on the right path with this line of thinking. I know that when my worldview was different, the highest virtue in my life was BEING NICE. BEING NICE made me feel nice and fuzzy inside and I sought that feeling even when being nice or offering "forgiveness" was not appropriate. [I used forgiveness to make MYSELF feel holy moly rather than what it is intended for - the OTHER PERSON] However, I had no self respect because being liked came at the expense of my principles. I just felt SICK inside alot. I felt convicted before God everytime I did this.

When my worldview changed to a more Christian worldview, my highest virtue became BEING GOOD. And being good does not include saying cute words to people just so they will like me and I will feel fuzzy and cute inside. Being good does not include using "respectful" words to describe filthy, vile disrespectful acts. There is nothing GOOD about ignoring sin or handing out inappropriate forgiveness like cheap candy. What a defilement of God's beautiful gift of forgiveness!

In this situation, I think that JJ should be helped in doing the right thing, which means repenting and making this right. She should be forgiven if she repents. That is a Christian obligation. But it is not a Christian obligation to aid her in her unrepentance and when it was pointed out that she might have a thing or two to repent for, she became infuriated and fled because it was something she did not want to hear. [and then the long knives and the sanctimony of the "nice word crowd" came out and all hope of a sane discussion evaporated] However, it was something she clearly NEEDED to hear. But no Christian should help her continue in unrepentance and should walk away if that is the kind of help she seeks. No Christian should be a part of that. She will have to make some other changes to make this right, beyond your standard Plan A/Plan B. And that is what she needs help with. But the first step is acceptance of the reality of what she has wrought.

Maybe that will come after she has had time to ponder the responses she received... and her own actions... and then, we can joyfully say the forum did help her.

Shaden

isn't Reba in an affair marriage?

... I could be wrong, but I remember reading something about that somewhere....

I feel certain this forum already HAS helped her !

ESPECIALLY the controversy has helped her !

Can you see why?

Pep

PS ... wash your computer screen

I have cooties

Pep

Ummm, Mel...

you said...


to which I said...


And you responded...




Hello, my name is Bubba... I see you hidin' behind dat tree.


Shaden