"Some people are handicapped or paralyzed today because of their sins. And while I do wish they didnt have their afflictions, I also know for some of them...they caused them. And while we can tend to them and show compassion and grace to them...we should never allow them to lessen the fact that the consequences they got were deserved. And earned."

yes, certainly, consequences follow behavior and a reasoning person can follow what happens. You stick your hand in the fire, you get burned.

Ok, she stuck her hand in the fire. She got burned. She says she knows she stuck her hand in the fire. She knows why she got burned. She is hurt she is sorry. She wants to make things right.
I agree that she has gained in understanding.

Are you saying that when she comes to get help to try and fix things, she must first endure the condemnation, agree with her condemners, (yes, I was wrong, I have learned, I have understanding) and THEN if they, who may not actually be in a position to be fair judges get to beat her up over it until they are satisfied they have worked out their anger, and then MAYBE they will offer some advice?

Does that question make sense to you? In many more primitive societies, shunning is the choice of punishment. Are we punishing? I mean what is actually being said here? Is the point to punish for the sin or to help the repentent move further down their path of healing and providing restitution?

I am sorry, but I do feel that many of the posters intended to hurt and that they enjoyed doing it. It is simply my own opinion and I say that respectfully to you because you say you do not see it. We have two different views, though, I am willing to try and see where you are coming from.

In terms of the murderer who repents and should they be killed in return? Are we giving them the punishment to fit their crime? I will be honest with you, some crimes are particularly heinous and I am very offended by them, but no, I do not think the repentent person who has killed should be killed in return.
If you truely want them to experience the consequences of their behavior, then allowing them to live with what they have done and live while in a state of grief and remorse for their actions, I think, is the more likely compassionate thing to do. I have about a dozen reasons for my pesonal beliefs on that. I have to ask...behavior= consequences but does that mean the ultimate punishment? Really, we should just exterminate the people who offend us, as a society?

I don't believe we should.

MM,

With apologies to you for jumping in here, but I feel there are a few things I would like to say. I feel that they may be heard and pondered on in this thread unlike the others that seem to be running rampant lately.

I always enjoy and learn something from your posts especially on religious issues and I plan to continue learnering new insights from you.

However, I must say that people do need to realize that this is not a "Christian" site. It is not a religious site. Harley specifically decided to NOT make it a "Christian" site because he felt that there were people of other religious views that could and would benefit from his insights gleaned from years of counseling.

While I am NOT a religious scholar, and I do count myself a Christian, I have had the privilige of meeting many people around the world and from around the world who are not Christians. And I find many to have moral compasses very similar to mine although coming from a very different background and religion.

It strikes me that seeing people apply their moral code, for example MM here to these situations is a very very good and enlightening thing. But, it also strikes me that if one reads Harley's works he is emphasizing the use of grace, temperance, forebarence (sp), and careful thought and consideration when handling marriage issues ( and yes not all issues have to do with infidelity).

The attributes Harley is suggesting that people use is in line with Christian teachings, but it is also in line with other religious teachings as well. And one can go further and say it is in line with many people who profess no religious affiliation.

Where am I going with this? I would just like to remind people that this is not a religious site, but the use of ones moral basis in handling situations is clearly a superior way to address issues of marriage. What I would like to see is a bit more willingness to declare a sin a sin when it is appropriate, but that it be done with spirit of hope and grace that the Christian religion encourages, and that many other religions encourage.

I think this is consistent with what MM is saying so far. But, folks ultimately it is up to God to judge our sins. It is our job to recognize sin and shine light on it. That means our beliefs may not be that of a given poster, and yet we can help them if they ask for help.

If as stated by Mr. W concerning JJ, he felt he could not offer help, then we should do as he did and NOT post. That does not mean he accepted her situation, it was just that he could not "help" her situation.

MM, thank you for letting me barge in here. The attitude on this site has been bothering me very very deeply lately. I have gotten the impression that some of the "Christian" posts have been very "UnChristian" and that bothers me. I think that this thread will be a great benefit to many people including myself, but I feel the need to speak up about the purpose of this site. It is to HELP PEOPLE and work on marriages. Not convert them, or castigate them if they don't believe as we do.

Thank you again MM.

God Bless,

JL

Please, let's not resurrect the exchanges that got the other thread locked...

I'd sincerely like to hear MM further develop this one. I have learned a lot from him in the past.

Please continue, MM

Agree very much, Lo, but I reserve the right to defend myself if she persists in coming on other threads and lying about my statements and her previous statements.

Thanks, JL.

To summarize, there's more than one "God".

WAT

She knows where your buttons are, Mel...don't fall for it.

These were great questions by Owl. I will be answerign them in the sermons to be posted. But I will leave Owl's questions, with some questions for everyone to think about. I know the Scriptural answers to these questions, but wanted to see if everyone else knows them or can find them.


Does the Bible speak to this? If so, where?


Maybe. Maybe not. If her marriage to her affair partner was not recognized by God, then was it really a marriage? If not, then what should she do? If it is a marriage according to God, when did it stop being adultery and start being an affair?


Maybe. But again as was asked above...what if the marriage contineus to not be recognized by God. And if it is, then is her remorse and regret enough...or does she have to do something to make amends? And what would that be in this case?


What does God accept? Can a marriage that began in adultery be a legitimate marriage in God's eyes? That is the real question here.


Good question. Of course, she should only have to do what God demands of her. But what is that?

Standing in His Presence

~amen~

Pep

What is the functional difference between how you would treat a person who's handicap is the result of a sin as opposed to someone who is handicapped through disease, misfortune or war?

How does not allowing someone to lessen the fact that they are living consequences manifest into action? Do you refuse aid where you would otherwise provide it? Do you refuse comfort where you would otherwise provide it? Do you invalidate their wish that they could walk again where you otherwise wouldn't? Do you not bake a casserole for the family if they die?

You see, what you do in your heart is less important than what you do in actual action. What is the distinction in action towards that person?

Mys

Beautifully written. Thanks JL.

*****************EDIT************

Does her state of forgiveness with God have anything to do with her ability to receive advice/help on this site? While it may mean that she's not ready to truly receive it or use it, is it OUR place to make that decision?

[********************EDIT****************

Thank you JL!

And, if it does make a difference to an individual poster, what is the cost to that poster if someone else has compassion and advice to offer?

If you cannot help, what harm is there to you if someone else can?

If you cannot relate, what harm is there to you if someone else can?

If you cannot muster up compassion and care, what harm is there to you if someone else can?

If you don't want to coddle someone or be coddled, what harm is there to you if someone else desires those things?

What does my compassion cost anyone else but me? It is mine to give.

Mys

Not exactly. I do know that many of the vets on here can see thru the fog that often accompanies people that come here..at first. And yes, in order to help, they do need to knwo if that person has learned, is sorrowful, has repented. Because if that hasnt happened, then any help would be pointless.


I dont see punishment as much as wanting to help those that truly want help. Some come here and want justification for what they have done or are doing. The only way to find out who is pretending, and who is truly repentent, is to ask the hard questions.


And I thank you for that. Sure, some may want to hurt someone on here. I cant see everyone's heart. But I do know some of the posters that you speak of. And I know that some that come on here are taken aback by the way they come off. But I do know the reasons why they approach things this way...and that they are not trying to hurt anyone or do what they do for their own enjoyment.


But the law says they should. And they were sentenced to death. So, now we are going to take away the justice that was provided the victim?


I didnt want this to be a death penalty thread, so I will let this one go. But to answer your question in light of this thread, if a person was sentenced to life in prison, but then accepted Jesus and was truly repentent...should we just let them go? Or are there consequences that stay with us durign this lifetime that we cannto escape?

Standing in His Presence

JL,
Sometimes I can't help but think that you are really Dr. Harley himself posting incognito <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do agree!! That is why JL, I try to keep the religious stuff to the religious threads...unless the person on their thread expresses that they are a Christian and seek that kind of guidance.


Agreed.


He does...and I agree, JL.


Agreed!


Agreed.


Thanks again, Jl. And I am glad you clarified what you did. For those that arent Christians ar are not interested in what God does say about marriage, divorce and re-marriage, I would ask that they just move onto other threads and help those marriages with the MB principles.

I am specifically having this thread so we can all discuss (especially since I am headed for divorce) what God wants from us, whether we are the BS or WS.

Standing in His Presence

Actually, that is not a DJ if it is true.

MM... thanks for the thread and I look forward to reading your upcoming posts. I have learned much from you.

Thank you JL.