As you like...

Mys

Afternoon MM,

First, thank you for writing to us all. This affair-based marriage issue has been very thought provoking and sometimes painful, but always beneficial, at least for me.

I have some questions for you.

You wrote:


- Has she been repentant
- Has she changed her ways
- Has she made amends
- Has she asked for forgiveness

What do these things look like? Esp "Made amends"?

Jo

Great question (man, we are all getting to the real questions here!! this is great.). What is the difference? Well, in light of what we are talking about here, let's look at that. Both persons are paralyzed. One due to their own fault...another due to someone/something else. So, what is the difference in how we handle this.

Well, let's see. if a person, knowing that driving drunk was wrong, becoems paralyzed because of it...should they expect to not be paralyzed? Should they have expected to live a normal life? The person that was paralyzed due to the actions of another did expect to have a normal life, because their actiosn were consistent with being able to live a normal life. But the drunk driver's actions were consistent with causing injury and death.

There is a HUGE difference between the two and the expectations each should have had prior to and after their paralysis.


You do render aid, you do give comfort. But here's the rub...when they talk about what they expected, what they wanted...and that was inconsistent with what we know about the results that come from the kind of actiosn they were doing...then it is not wrong to point that out to them. They are paralyzed due to their own stupidity and they should expect to be paralyzed. if they want to sit in the bed and bemoan the fact that it isnt fair they are paralyzed, then I would not have much "compassion" in what I told them. They got what they deserved. I am sorry for their pain. I also wish they could go back and redo what they did, this time doing it right. But as I said before...never, ever ask God for what you deserve.


Not sure yoru meaning here, Mys. if you can elaborate, that would be helpful.

Standing in His Presence

Yes, Owl. It does. Without her getting right with Him first, there is really nothing we can do to help. Not true help.

That is what it means for Christians to judge. God doesnt help those that help themselves. God helps the helpless.

We need to discern those that truly want help and those that are pretenders. And use our time and resources to helping those that truly want help.

Standing in His Presence

My only answer to this right now is Matthew 7:6:



Which means, dont waste your time and resources on those that cannot or will not receive it.

Standing in His Presence

People have said that before!!

Standing in His Presence

Jo, that was one of the questions I was asking everyone. I will have the answer to these questions in the sermons I post soon. But I wanted to see where everyone stood on this first.

Standing in His Presence

MM,
I think the challenge is in being a fair enough judge to
make that call.
I reiterate that there are so many caught up in their own
pain- too close to their pain to perform the kind of judging
that God calls us to.
I think we need to ask ourselves- is my written post a
response to what I'm reading from this individual or am
I posting in direct response to my own viseral pain that
has been triggered.

Absolutely Paige!!!!!!!!


That is possible.


We should. Great point.

Standing in His Presence

I think this view is incorrect for these boards. What people are here is experienced enough to be able to call it as they see it. We are all colored by our experiences... but it is the focus of the recovered here that helps cut through the fog associated with A thinking.
It is easy to discount those here by saying they are only venting their own anger/hurt/fear on others... that is the easy way to dismiss their view point. My experience here has been that a FWS or BS is going to get a fair shake for just about everyone if they come here looking for help and not justification.

MM,



FH's prior words on the subject implied to me that the marriage WAS legitimate but still adulterous...thus, a legitimate adulterous marriage. If your sermon ends up agreeing with FH's beliefs, then, perhaps the "real question" may be, in fact,

"Can a legitimate adulterous marriage become a fully legitimate non-adulterous marriage in God's eyes?

or

"How does one extract the term "adulterous" from their otherwise and continuing legitimate adulterous marriage.?"

Another big problem I see is that a marriage involves two persons. Wouldn't it take the actions of BOTH marital partners to fully and completely remove the term "adulterous" from their legitimate adulterous marriage???

If only ONE spouse in such marriage wanted to "pay the price", SHOULD that spouse or COULD that spouse then leave (divorce) the legitimate still "adulterous" marriage based upon the unevenly yoked concept??? In other words, assuming it takes the efforts, repentence, atonement of both spouses to remove the term "adulterous" from such marriage, then one spouse, on their own, may not be able to ever "go, and sin no more" without the others compliance in the restoration of the marriage??? Using the example of JJ, she may be very willing and able to really see these questions clearly. If not now, soon. Afterall, she's now been a BS. Her husband I don't believe will be quite as willing to address this issue...yet.

Man this subject is deep. I thought I had been thinking about it since July 7th when JJ first started posting on Just Found Out...but it's gotten so much deeper than I ever imagined.

I hope my questions are clear enough.

Mr. Wondering

Without sounding wishy-washy, I do agree with you. look, before someone says Mortarman is growing soft...let me say something.

We always need to check our motivations before we post. Paige is right. But, can we expect not to have our experiences "color" our perspectives? Of course not. I am a BS...I will always have the perspective of a BS. The FWSs will always have that perspective, of what it was like. I dont fully understand them...they dont truly understand me.

But that does nto mean we have to hold our perceptions and opinions. We should speak to what the Lord says in Scripture and what He says in our hearts. If you do that...you will not be wrong.

Ever.

Standing in His Presence

My mother is paralyzed due to illness. She also lives in chronic pain. Her case (a very rare disorder) has been presented at a conference of medical professionals at a top medical university. There is no treatment option that will allow her to resume a normal life. There is pain, hard work, and many opportunitistic illnesses which come from being paralyzed that she has to deal with.

How can her expectations after paralysis be any different than someone with a similar diagnosis?

If your spinal cord is damaged/severed, there is very little that you can 'expect' after that point aside from the normal progression of healing, time, physical therapy and limitations.

If a man looses a leg in battle, his medical expectations would be the same as a man who lost his leg in a drunk driving crash which he caused.

Actually, if you wanted to be really technical about it -- given the risk of going to war and fighting for your country (of being injured or killed) and the risk of being injured or killed driving drunk, one might almost say that soldiers should have different expectations about their quality of life should they choose to go into battle. Not that they'd choose to be injured, but that's part and parcel of the burden they accept when they choose to defend our country (my father is also career military, retired, served in Vietnam).

Anyway, my point is simply this: expectations arise from many risky types of behavior. Some risky behavior is -- well -- stupid (drunk driving). Some risky behavior is not -- I would say it's honorable and to be admired. Sometimes there *is* no risky behavior that is easily predicted (diseases, etc).

At the end of the day, the reality is what it is. Fault or no fault, my mother will not walk unaided in her life time. Does she deserve it? I certainly don't think so. But then, seeing the grim realities of paralysis up close also makes me question whether I think anyone would deserve that. Perhaps my lack of concern over fault/sin makes me more compassionate in general?


Well, to use a brutal example which doesn't reflect my perception of your character...

If a man fell out of his wheelchair and couldn't get back in... would you walk by him if you knew he got there through his own sin? Would you push the chair away? Would you move slower to his aid or be less ginger in your handling of him if you lifted him up? Would you treat him differently than you would a child paralyzed by birth through an illness? Would you require that he recite the full measure of his sin and express remorse for his prior actions before you'd lift a finger to help?

Would you prevent or restrain others from granting him aid?

Would you stand over him, lying prone on the ground, and explain to him that he deserves his misfortune and it could be worse?

Perhaps you would feel some of those things in your heart. Perhaps, inside, you'd feel inconvienced at the ugly, pathetic sight of him lying at your feet. Perhaps you'd feel proud that you were sensible enough not to have earned that fate. Perhaps you'd feel happy that he's getting the full measure of his consequences.

I don't think so.

I think you'd rush to his aid. I think you'd be as gentle as you could to avoid injuring him while you returned him to his chair. I think you'd go out of your way to offer him immediate medical attention to any injuries he might have sustained.

What does Jesus call you to do?

Some people come to this site after falling out of their chairs -- perhaps they were put there through the reckless actions of others. Perhaps they were put there through their own reckless disregard. Would Jesus ask you to lift them up or walk on by?

And, if the answer is that Jesus would have you push the chair away and kick him as you go by (which I don't believe for a moment)... then where is the benefit in rebuking others who don't follow those teachings and want to help?

Perhaps you still despise the person because of their sin -- but if you can act compassionately through that disgust then I think you're a better person for it. Or, perhaps you have compassion but you still walk on by. What does that say about you? (I'm using 'you' in a generic sense.)

Just a few thoughts,

Mys

Great points Mr. W. And yes, those are the questions. And the sermons do answer those!!


If you can remove it, then yes...it would take both!


Great questions! And before I get the sermons on here to answer them, I would love to hear mroe from everyone on what they believe. Thought-provoking, huh??


True. And in the middle of that mess, what as Christians should we provide?


Unfortunately, mankind makes some very deep messes. Well entangled. I will say that the great thing is that God, thru Jesus, has a way thru the mess. We will get to that soon!


Quite clear. And thank you, as these are the questions I am tryign to get everyone to think about. This is tough stuff, as you have said.

And as I have said many times on here, the answers are very simple...just not easy! Thanks Mr. W.

Standing in His Presence

I think the definition of "help" can also be in disagreement.

When someone asks for aid in accomplishing something that I believe is harmfull..I'm certainly not going to help.

Example..say..I'm having trouble..could you please push the plunger on this syringe full of smack down for me?

Er..no.

I do agree with MEDC in that when we are told something we don't agree with or don't want to hear we often seek to discredit the person speaking.

IE..your response tells me you can't post impartially..you are stuck in your own pain.

Fair enough I say because if someone posts something contrary to MY perspective and I find it disagreeable I am likely to do the very same thing.

Everyone has a bias..everyone has a motive and everyone has an agenda..if we just assume that as a given it's a lot easier to not take things so personally.

I have also been studying this issue and have thus far discovered that there is no consensus even among biblical scholars although some sects/denominations do tend to be more or less in agreement with each other..ie Calvinistic folk tend to generally agree..Arminian have a different take, Catholic different from either.. etc...

What it comes down to in that instance is the belief that we each will have to account for our own decisions and choice to believe what we do..a sobering thought if ever there was one. A good motivation for any Christain to double check that what they WANT to believe lines up with what scripture dictates.

I will be looking with interest at this threads progression.

Making this too complex, folks.

JMHO.

In a Christlike life, we are to first and foremost edify God with word and deed.

If marriage #1 bombed, regardless of the circumstances, and repentance from the straying partner (to God) is truly present (but not necessarily accepted by the betrayed) and marriage #2 is edifying God, well I think God would be good with that. That's pretty much the prodigal son.

If we, personally, cannot support or condone said marriage, well that's fine too. For in the end, said marriage partners WILL answer for what they have done.

Just as we will.

For any judgements we choose to pass.

Stand firm, for what you believe. Let your little light shine. The rest? Just noise. 'Tho those little things are much harder to do then say.

NCWalker

...lines up with what they believe scripture dictates...IF they believe scripture dictates.

How we see scripture is a huge factor in how we choose to apply it.

I, for one...do not ascribe to "God says..." but to "Jeremiah wrote that God says to the Israelites" - a great difference. It is not "the word of God", but the message of God to those people in the words of men.

But that's a whole 'nother debate. I'm still interested in seeing it from the literal angle.

Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." (NASB)

Not much unclear in this statement about affair marriages. They are continuous adultery.

Well, except that, literally, it might be argued that it applies only to men.

****************EDIT**************

Hi Low, how you been?

That is really the big problemo in a nutshell. This "subject to interpretation" thingy. Where I work, we strive very hard to make sure are specifications and procedures are not "subject to interpretation." This stuff is translated into many different languages. And stuff gets lost in translation. You wouldn't belive the stuff that goes back and forth, and how much trouble it can cause.

I am kind of a "Balloo the Bear" Christian. I have a strong walk. I TRULY believe. I don't deviate from my walk. And I try and be a light, so that those around me say "WOW - what's with THAT guy?" And I can answer "I'm good with God." The bare necessities.

THEN - if they have questions, I answer them.

What else is there, man? You got to BE the blessing. The bringer of JOY. You got to walk in the fruits.

The rest? Noise. All noise.

Do I know there is a God? A Christian God?

Yes. Firsthand experience. And you aren't going to logic me out of that one.

Can I convince anyone else? No. Of course not.

But.... If I can BE the best example I can BE in the face of adversity - and you see that, and wonder where the strength comes from (Him).

Well ... you MIGHT start believing.