Either way you slice it .. it is just semantics... and the Lord looks into the heart.

Your last question is what this discussion is about. And will be a part of the study that I am going to post. What do you think Scripture says?

On the issue of Christians sinning with impunity, there are several passages in the New Testament that speak to the fact that Christians are dealt with rather harshly by God for rebellion. Hebrews 10 is a great start to look at that.

Let's take my wife for example. She committed adultery knowing that it was wrong. She knew God's commands. And if she was truly saved, then she was in rebellion to her Father.

The Troll (OM) is not saved. Although he knows that adultery is wrong, he is not specifically in rebellion to the Father, because he is not a part of God's family. When saved, you become His...a part of the family.

So, both commit acts of sin. But my wife's is construed by the Lord as acts of rebellion. Now, as a Father, if the neighborhood kids are acting up, I am not going to spank them or punish them. Why? Because they are not mine. But my own kids...that is a different story!!!

So, here is where some would say it is unfair. In the case of the Troll, if today he came to the Lord and asked Him to save him...then the Troll's sins would be wiped clean. Including the adultery. And many times, the Lord will also take away the consequences of those sins from him. He might not...but it is a possibility.


For Mrs. Mortarman, God says that the consequences of her rebellion (if she is truly a Christian) will fall directly on her head. He will not hold them back, He will not intervene. Even if she turns back to Him. This is actually a small part of the study, but I will Cliff Note it here.


God is talking about Christians here. And He is very upfront about what He expects and what will happen. The Christian in rebellion cannot expect the Lord to rescue them from the consequences of that rebellion. The Troll could see himself rescued from the consequences of his adultery in this life. My wife cannot count on that. As a matter of fact...she can count on it NOT being taken from her! "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..."

Again, I have already gotten into a small part of the study, so I will stop now. But I hope that helps a little where we will be headed with this.

Standing in His Presence

That is better. I think what I was really trying to get to is that if you are truly a part of God's family, you will always be a part of His family. You can run away and sin against the Father...but that does nto make you any less His daughter or son. Now, if you return to Him, then I guess you could call that "re-dedication." As in you are re-dedicating yourself to live as your Father commands.

My oldest son is not mine biologically. I met my wife when he was just a few months old. After we married, I adopted my son and he took my name. He was grafted into this family that day. And thus, he is as much my son as his younger brother, who is my biological son. And both sons, no matter how they became my sons...will always be my sons. They cannot change that.

The thing about this is that once you are a Christian, you always are a Christian!

Standing in His Presence

MM, I believe that Scripture would dictate that the saved Christian that has committed adultery is in for a world of trouble. Salvation is not at stake... but there will be a price to pay for such wilfull disobedience to God's command. The M may be legitimate in the eyes of man.. but not in the eyes of the Lord. There would have been no reason to divorce in the first place, so any M after that is considered fornication.
God is fair and unchanging... he has laid out the law and the consequences... the sinners will be dealt with in His Kingdom. We live in a world and a society where people feel that anything goes... well, it doesn't... it won't.
Thanks for a wonderful thread.

Excellent post Suzet.
People are not perfect. We are subject to our life's experiences and some people ae subject to organic issues. These sorts of things can cloud thought processes and often people who have trauma, are abused, or who have depression, anxiety, etc, act in ways that they would not normally act.

I can see some of you are hardliners.

People make mistakes and I think they can also come to understanding and experience growth and have remorse.

The people who make the same mistakes over and over...well it seems a breakdown for them has occurred in some way or they would not find themselves acting in ways that they know will cause damage to themselves and other people.

My own opinion, but I do not think we ourselves can really err by extending to those people ( and we may end up making the same mistakes) compassion and at least an attempt to understand and help them if we find in ourselves capacity to do so.

Someone was saying earlier that basically sometimes you can't find in yourself capacity to offer help or offer support because of how you believe. I agree, sometimes that is the case. Best thing to do is back away and let people who are equipped to help offer help.

I have huge issues with this rage and anger and condemnation being directed at people who come here for help. Yes, they may be in a state of error. Most of them say they know that up front.

If you can't offer compassion and help, why do more harm by calling people names, rubbing their face over and over ad nauseum ( 17 TIMES!)into the mistake they made? Some people look to me like they are so full of fury and anger. You can't say to them, ok, we all know how you feel, why don't you back off? They just become angrier, go more ballistic, they begin to call people filthy names, they begin to throw huge tantrums.
To me that looks like some pretty serious issues.No one is denying how they feel, but using the bible to support hateful behavior is, IMO, unethical and simply an excuse to be cruel. You can SEE the delight they are taking in what they are doing and frankly, I feel pretty sickened by that.

You know who you are. And if you come here and start slinging your garbage at me for noticing what you are doing, like so many of us on this site are noticing what you are doing, I will ignore you.

Thanks Mortor, I really look forward to seeing your post.

Mortarman, I think with the word “re-converted” the author of those passages was probably referring to people who’ve became Christians but afterwards temporarily “lost their way” and leaded sinful lives before they have repented and return to the “right and narrow” road and started to live true Christian lives again. Such a person has then in fact “re-converted” to a Christian life again where God’s commandments are obeyed.

If it’s true that once a person is saved, he/she is always saved, then what about the person who become a Christian and decides later on to reject God’s commandments by living a life of disobedience and Sin against God and Jesus Christ? What if this person never become repentant again and never return to the “right and narrow” road and start to lead a Christian live again? I think in such a case the person indeed lose his/her salvation.

AD, I just wanted to comment that the verses I quoted make clear that a BS whose marriage has been lost is free to marry again. In another place, Paul writes that if a believer is yoked to a non-believer, and the NB is content to stay with the B they are to stay, but if the NB leaves, the B is free to marry again.

God's intention was not for us to be alone, though every now and again someone is alone (if following scriptural guidelines), at least for a while, due to the wrong choices of others.

God wanted to preserve families as much as possible, and to leave the door open for reconciliation for as long as He could.

If you (the generic you) were single after your spouse's adultery, met a nice divorcee whose spouse had divorced for some other cause than adultery (or one of the other few provisions), and then the spouse had become involved with someone else, that would be adultery in God's eyes. But the nice divorcee would be free to be married to someone else if he/she chose, because the spouse had violated the sacred marriage in addition to the legal marriage.

Today's society of casual divorce and remarriage must be very displeasing to God. It was this cavalier attitude toward marriage He was trying to prevent, not companionship. But so many of us just say, "Oh well, if this marriage doesn't work out, I can always get another."

God wants to bring healing to all our families, and if you (the generic you again) meet a nice divorcee who is scripturally bound, it is because God still would like a chance to heal her original family.

Why does it not matter, if there is no God? What doesn't matter? This study of yours or how we treat affair marriages?

When I read this statement of yours it sounds like you are saying that without a belief in God and more specifically a Christian God as interpreted by you, there are no values or belief systems governing us, which I find not to be true in the majority of non Christians and even Athiest I know. Quite the contrary really, I find those who have no belief in God to be very concerned with their own values and how their treatment and relationship with the rest of mankind contributes to the good of mankind as a whole.

The values which are internalized because of a concern for mankind and our world can be and often are much stronger than values which are based on an external source.

I have a very strong belief in God as I know Him, and also of Jesus as I know him and I do find this thread interesting, as I do all theological discussions, but I think you offend a great many people when you make statements as this so instead of getting all bent out of shape like I normally would, I am questioning it first.

Please clarify what you meant by that statement MM.

What does that mean, BlackOpal? Sure, we all have our Cross to bear. And we do have many things in our life that help push us toward sin. None of us are perfect, as you outlined.

But being imperfect is NO excuse in God's eyes. Why? Because He provided a way to be perfect. So, even when I sin, if I am following Jesus...then He picks me up, dusts me off...and we begin again.


True.


The Lord does not expect an unbeliever to not sin. The Lord does expect a believer to not sin. Now, He does know that we will. But it is in the relationship with Jesus that keeps Christians from sinning over and over...from rebelling. A Christian that keeps committing the same sin over and over is in rebellion to God. Plain and simple. I know I have done so in my life...and have paid the consequences of that rebellion. "Daddy" put His hand on my backside. And I thank Him for doing so, because that was a VERY loving act!!


I dont think anyone would disagree with this statement.


Again, I have not seen "rage" or "anger" expressed here. being harsh does not equal rage or anger!! As the vets here have learned, when dealing with someone in the fog, the last thing they need is for someone to be "nice" to them. The loving thing to do is "slap" them upside the face, to help them wake up. Being "nice" to them only leads to enablement!! The long history of many a WS that has come on here proves this to be true.


Some people come on here not seeking help, but seeking justification for their actions. And they will never get that here...especially not from the vets. We are not dealing with children here.


We post on here...how can they "look" at you? many of the people you are eluding to dont hold any anger nor animosity towards you or anyone else. Are they harsh, upfront...to-the-point? Sure. And many times, that IS the compassionate thing to do!!!


BlackOpal, as you and I have just started posting to each other...let me warn you that you are accusing people of what you have done yourself. I can pull out your posts, and show where you start off being "compassionate," but the "bait" the person you are posting to by putting jibes or accusations in there. Be careful...because some would say that you are very close to hypocrisy here.


Again, no one here (the vets that you are eluding to) is delighting in any of this. I know these people...have seen hundreds of posts of theirs...and you could not be more wrong about them. They are using the same principles and tactics that have worked for years here in helping people in the fog to see the light of day.

I have had many WSs come on here and are taken aback by my rather harsh treatment of them. harsh in that I am not going to let them say "but you dont know my husband" or "this is so hard." If I give in to this and jsut say "oh, WS...I understand. it's okay. Yes your husband is horrible, blah, blah, blah..." then I am ENABLING that WS to continue!! What I need to say is "First off, WS...NONE of this is your husband's fault. This is yours. Own it!! And sure, this aint easy. But the right way is very simple. And you have two choices...continue to live in sin and to betray your honor, or do the right thing...the hard thing. What is it going to be?"

Now, that may be harsh...but it is the ONLY way to get thru to an addicted, foggy WS!


This is EXACTLY what I am talkign about BlackOpal!!! You have now taunted these other people to basically come out and do what YOU are doing!! You need to look at yourself here and see that you are doing exactly what you are condemning!


I am sorry I have to be harsh with you here, BlackOpal. But you need to step back and really take a look at why so many vets say and do the things they do. and I will give you a hint...it isnt anger, or hurt, or animosity. It is concern and care for everyone that comes here and truly wants to do the right thing.

And for the WSs and enablers of WSs, all of the vets are harsh with them. It is what is needed!!

Please take some time to re-evaluate what you have said here and your motivations, BlackOpal. As I have said, I know those that you speak of...and I know for a fact that your assumptions concerning them are completely off-base.

Standing in His Presence

On the person that chooses to reject Jesus...I am confident, based on Scripture...that they were never saved in the first place. On the other person, they are still a Christian...but a carnal Christian. And God deals with them as I outlined above in Hebrews 10. But Scripture does say that once you are saved, you are always saved. Your place in Heaven is assured.

Standing in His Presence

IMO... if a person has given his life over to the Lord... salvation cannot be given away. Sin does not remove a person from God's care or take their name out of The Lambs Book of Life.... it is a sinner sinning and it will be dealt with a firm yet fair "hand."

Mortarman - I don't know why the other thread (re: JustJilly) was locked, but if you don't mind I will post a few responses here to posts that were made on that thread because I think they are germaine to this thread topic also.

If you do mind, I will not be offended and I will remove the following posts.

God bless, and I hope you are doing well brother.

Bob Pure* - Bob, I understand what you are trying to say, but I think your chosen analogy is designed to support the concept that one MUST (not “should if at all possible”) make recompense for past evil that was done. In essence, it “adds” WORKS to the concept of salvation (remember, we are talking about the case of a sinner who HAS committed sin(s) and later “Finds Christ” and becomes a believer IN CHRIST). IF “works” of some kind (like divorcing their current husband/wife and returning to their former Betrayed Spouse) are required in addition to salvation by Grace alone, then that position is clearly unscriptural.

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Eph 2: 1-10 NIV, emphasis added)

So, let’s modify your chosen analogy a little and say that instead of a robber, the person is a murderer. Futhermore, he has murdered your child. There is no way to “return” the murdered child to you (father or mother or both) even after the murderer has repented of his sinful life and accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. The “past” can be forgiven, but not forgotten. It cannot be “undone,” but all efforts to NOT repeat the same past sins can be made and a decision to “live for Christ” from this day forward can be made.

THE issue we are really talking about is the difference between “sinner and saved.” In the case of the murderer who repented, the father and mother DO NOT have to “take that person back into their lives, they only need to “leave him in God’s hands.” Likewise, a Betrayed Spouse is NOT required to take an Unfaithful Spouse back in to the marriage that had been “murdered.” They CAN choose to forgive and attempt to rebuild the shattered marriage on the “potter’s wheel” of God, to reform something new and better from the flawed shards of the previous marital state.

Noodle – the answer is their relationship with Christ. If they have repented of their sinful life and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Lord of their lives and have accepted him as such, surrendering their lives to him, they are NO LONGER living in “sustained sin.”

“Married” is any Man and Woman, united as “one flesh.” Married with God as the “3rd person” of a Christian marriage covenant is ONLY reserved for true believers, not for those living in self delusion.

But don’t think that a mere profession of faith is enough. It must be a genuine, heartfelt conversion following the recognition of their sins and the ONE provision that God has made available whereby we may be saved from eternal separation from God.

Not saying that there arent values or beliefs. Saying that if the beliefs arent based on God's view, then they are based on our view. Which means we can change them. Which means, one day...it is possible that maybe adultery isnt considered immoral. Maybe society decides that it is okay. But if God says it is immoral, and as He says in Malachi ("I never change"), then these morals and ethics do not change in His eyes. And then sin is a standard, nto a slide rule.


I do too. Some of my best friends on MB are atheists or agnostics. That isnt the point that I was making. I was saying that if man can make up these values, then man can change those values. But if God made them, then man has no right to change them.


Stronger values does not equal ethical or moral values. Soem have values in this world that all Jews should be killed. Some have had values that Africans make perfectly good slaves and can be treated as property. Our Declaration of Independence, the document with which all of our laws, our Constitution, our way of life is based...hits right on this point. It says that their are inalienable rights. They are inalienable because someone higher than us made them our rights. Which means government has NO right to take them away.

If mankind can decide what is our base values and morals, then mankind can chose to change them. If God decides these things, then they are unchangeable.


Thanks for asking...and I do not seek to offend. But I am bringing out the point that if our morals, values and ethics are brought about by "group think"...then they can be changed. And they are based on nothing more than majority rule.

But if God has dictated them, then they are based on something and Someone that NEVER, EVER changes.

Standing in His Presence

I dont mind FH.

Standing in His Presence

You know the strangest thing (and I know this from personal experience more so than from scripture) that once we invite Jesus into our life, he is there and no matter what we do there he is... still.

I have tried at different times to get away from my deep love for and belief in God (to no avail LOL).

I do not agree with so much of what you write, but this truth about Jesus staying with me, walking with me and refusing to let me go...well it is amazing what happens, that is for sure.

MEDC – “legitimate” depends, does it not, on how God defined, and defines, “marriage?”

Our feelings are secondary to what God has said, and God has said that the union of a man and woman is “marriage,” and is intended to be “for life.” It is SIN that disrupts the plan of God, not the “state” of the marriage as “being or not being a marriage.”

NO marriage of any couple “legitimate or otherwise” in the “sight of Man” has anything to do with Salvation. “Right and Wrong” are determined by God, not by Man. Those who do not have “Christ” are already “illegitimate” and are already “dead in their sins.” NO amount of “good works” will provide salvation. That is why I have always said that the “first order of business” is to “get right with God” on HIS terms, not on our terms.


“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV, emphasis added)


“Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.” (1 Cor 7:24 NIV)

MEDC, all things that happen are allowed to happen because God allows it. We do NOT always understand the “why” God allows something to happen, but God does. For those who either ARE saved and have experienced the effects of worldly evil AND those who later come to know the Lord after they have committed sins (all of us have) are recipients of God’s promise of Romans 8:28-34.

“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all – how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.”


God FORGIVES us of our sins and CANCELS the debt we owe him. We may not “like” the fact that the SIN is forgiven, but it is when someone accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. It may not seem the “human thing to do,” but it is God’s promise, and God is faithful to all of His promises to His children.

Do “harmful effects” remain from the sin? Certainly they can. That is why “forgiveness” does not equal “no consequences.” “Greater sins” WILL have lasting consequences and is why we are enjoined to NOT sin in the first place.

It is also why repentance must be real. We cannot “profess,” or “say” we are a Christian and then continue to sin with impunity. Such behavior would indicate, as James pointed out, that “faith without works is dead.” It would indicate that the “faith” was not real and was merely “fooling oneself” to allow them to continue sinning, and we know that such WILL NOT be in heaven. It is, will be, Christ telling some of those who “think” they are Christians, “Away from me you evildoers, I never knew you.” God knows the heart, no matter what we say or do or how we “appear” to others.

Additionally, that "NEVER knew you" is emphatic and would cover those who appear to have "fallen away" from the faith. Again, I would point to the Parable of the Soils to illustrate that NOT all who "think" that merely calling themselves a Christian, perhaps even trying for while to behave as they "think" a Christian should behave, ARE truly saved. To BE saved requires believing in, and accepting, Jesus Christ for who He IS and what God did FOR us through no effort or "work" of our own. It is God's GRACE that brings us to a saving faith, not our "will" to "behave as a Christian should."

God bless.

Yes, I see your point and I am glad I asked.

I agree with that, Weaver!

The only unpardonable sin...really the ONLY sin that sends people to He!l is the rejection of Jesus' free gift. it isnt our works or our sins. It is THIS sin. If a person who professes to be a Christian, one day wakes up and says "I reject His grace, I reject the blood He shed..." then I am confident that thsi person was never saved.

Because for the Christian, the person truly saved...you are correct!! He will come after you. You belong to Him. You are not yoru own.

Standing in His Presence