I imagine Jesus is lurking on this thread.

Perhaps he'll register and chime in with his thoughts?

-ol' 2long

Or as I like to say...just because you sleep in a garage, doesnt make you a Ford!"

Standing in His Presence

He has been!!

And "Hi" 2Long!

Standing in His Presence

MM:

I just KNEW you were going 2 say that!

"Hi" yourself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

You know me too well, my friend!

Standing in His Presence

Ouch! I've had bad experiences with Ford's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Wherever two or more of you (believers) are gathered together, there am I in the midst of you."


"Perhaps he'll register and chime in with his thoughts?"

He is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Already beat you to it, FH. Of course, you did respond with the Scriptural basis...so one additional point to you!

Standing in His Presence

MM - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh I just knew this thread would draw you out of "semi lurkdom only" status, 2long...Appy too!

I have comments I could make, but I'll refrain.

Oh heck, no I won't, I'll say it...no one is letting you go either, if you get my drift...name it what you will, symbolize it how you will, but you got caught 2long and haven't been thrown back... HAH, Lord knows you've tried too though.

Drew AD out too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi FH

I think your chosen analogy is designed to support the concept that one MUST (not “should if at all possible”) make recompense for past evil that was done. In essence, it “adds” WORKS to the concept of salvation (remember, we are talking about the case of a sinner who HAS committed sin(s) and later “Finds Christ” and becomes a believer IN CHRIST). IF “works” of some kind (like divorcing their current husband/wife and returning to their former Betrayed Spouse) are required in addition to salvation by Grace alone, then that position is clearly unscriptural.

My analogy was pertinent to the status of the stolen goods not the robber's salvation which as you say cannot be earned.

By his salvation ar the temporal fruits of his sin now legitimately is or not ?

And if a a person takes another persons spouse, does that person become their legitimate spouse following their salvation. My feeling is that NO unless the repenetant WS/BS has taken EVERY POSSIBLE STEP to redo what they did wrong. It is the legitimacy of the marriage that may be changed by works, not the legitimacy of their salvation IMO.

So, FH... you seem to say a lot here. So, I will ask you simply... and would like a simple answer in your words... is an A marriage legitmate in your eyes if both or one of the people were Christians?
If there were no grounds for divorce for one or both of the A couple... are they committing adultery?
If a man decides to marry his mother is that a legitimate M in the eyes of God??? Afterall it is a man and woman.

And so that you are clear here...I believe I have been discussing when two already saved Christian's enter into an A marriage. I do not see that as legitimate. If you do, please tell me what you are basing this on.

Mortorman,

I have not figured out how to do the boxed quote thing, so bear with me.

"What does that mean, BlackOpal? Sure, we all have our Cross to bear. And we do have many things in our life that help push us toward sin. None of us are perfect, as you outlined.

But being imperfect is NO excuse in God's eyes. Why? Because He provided a way to be perfect. So, even when I sin, if I am following Jesus...then He picks me up, dusts me off...and we begin again."

Right, so you are not perfect. You make mistakes, you pick yourself up, having come to understanding, you ask for forgiveness for the transgression (which God alwasy gives to the true repentant) and you move forward with intention not to sin again. You are not the only one God lends his grace to. Do you feel better, having made your mistakes, repented, asked for support and guidence, only to recieve attacks and condemnation and abuse? How would that help you?

I am refering above specifically people who have depression, anxiety disorders or other organic brain dysfunctions that interfere with clear thinking. I have seen people who are manic -depressive go off spend huge sums of money, cheat, have illusions that are no supported in real life. People who have been in wars, raped...I think saying "we all have our cross to bear" does not really apply to these people until they are in their "right mind again.

"Again, I have not seen "rage" or "anger" expressed here. being harsh does not equal rage or anger!! As the vets here have learned, when dealing with someone in the fog, the last thing they need is for someone to be "nice" to them. The loving thing to do is "slap" them upside the face, to help them wake up. Being "nice" to them only leads to enablement!! The long history of many a WS that has come on here proves this to be true."

That may be true for the peson who comes here with a sense of entitlement and are careless about what they have done and make it plain they intend to continue in the same e direction.
It is a waste of time to beat up on someone who admits their error and that they have come to understanding. Al it is providing is a sense of superiority and enjoyment to the person who is doing the attacking. I see it here over and over again. The person comes on, says, ok, I messed up, I realize what I did, can someone please provide me with guidence. Guidence does not include calling someone a bunch of names and in general kicking someone who is already down.

I vigoruusly disagree with with your apparant persepctive that you have religious and moral grounds for doing so. I have NEVER seen Jesus beat up on the repentent sinner in the Bible EVER. It has NEVER happened.

"BlackOpal, as you and I have just started posting to each other...let me warn you that you are accusing people of what you have done yourself. I can pull out your posts, and show where you start off being "compassionate," but the "bait" the person you are posting to by putting jibes or accusations in there. Be careful...because some would say that you are very close to hypocrisy here"

I disagree with you.
I called them on their unwarranted atatcks and pointed out that if they were basing their reasoning for doing so in their claim that they were a Christian, then they were in error. I still believe they were in error to beat up on someone who had already admitted their "sin" and was remorseful.

In terms of me being a hypocrite... one person for a fact went back and edited what they wrote after I responded to their name calling, their abusive attacks, etc. Admittedly, I do not like being condescended to , I do not like being called filthy names, I do not care for the vindictive spiteful, cruelty so gleefully displayed.
Did I respond in kind...no, I did not. Since they edited what they wrote, it makes me look like they did very little to provoke a strong repsonse. This person, though you believe otherwise, is to me deceitful, malicious, vindictive, enjoys inflicting pain, a liar, self entitled, and onward. In fact, I consider them one of the most dispicable people I have ever encountered on the this web site.
Now, if you want to chastise me for the way I feel, that is up to you. If you want to point out to me that answering disrespect with more disrepsect is not likely to produce good results, I agree with you. It does not. It does point to my own buttons and my own personal issues, which is, I truely abhor people like the above mentioned peson. I have my own reasons.
So yes, you can point it out to me and I can see it. However I can also point a number of things out about you that I disagree with. For one you are proceeding on the broad assumption that your personal views are the "RIGHT" ones. I don't paticulalry think they are, but I am willing to hear what you have to say and try and see where you are coming from. My OWN view? When you die, I think you will be VERY surprised at what greets you at the Gate.

"Some people come on here not seeking help, but seeking justification for their actions. And they will never get that here...especially not from the vets. We are not dealing with children here. "

You are right. Some people do. And for those of us close to our pain, it is better to back away than to call people names and throw huge malicious tantrums, taking delight in the pain inflicted. Let those who are best equipped to be the iron fist in a velvet glove do it.

"We post on here...how can they "look" at you? many of the people you are eluding to dont hold any anger nor animosity towards you or anyone else. Are they harsh, upfront...to-the-point? Sure. And many times, that IS the compassionate thing to do!!!"

Up to a point, I agree with you. The "look" ok a figure of speech taken literally...ok I read what they post and the anger expressed is quite vindictive IMO. Needlessly so. And these people are basis their right to abuse on the Bible and their claim that they are Christians. I disagree with that. I have seen some truley magnificnet Christians. They are so powerful, strong in their faith, and they have understanding and compassion. Truely Christ-like in every sense of the word.
To stand here and watch soem of the abuse that goes on in Gods name on this website...it sickens me. You can disagree with my thoughts, that is fine, it how I feel and we are, despite what it may seem, coming at this from 2 entirely different perspectives.

"Again, no one here (the vets that you are eluding to) is delighting in any of this. I know these people...have seen hundreds of posts of theirs...and you could not be more wrong about them. They are using the same principles and tactics that have worked for years here in helping people in the fog to see the light of day.

I have had many WSs come on here and are taken aback by my rather harsh treatment of them. harsh in that I am not going to let them say "but you dont know my husband" or "this is so hard." If I give in to this and jsut say "oh, WS...I understand. it's okay. Yes your husband is horrible, blah, blah, blah..." then I am ENABLING that WS to continue!! What I need to say is "First off, WS...NONE of this is your husband's fault. This is yours. Own it!! And sure, this aint easy. But the right way is very simple. And you have two choices...continue to live in sin and to betray your honor, or do the right thing...the hard thing. What is it going to be?"

Now, that may be harsh...but it is the ONLY way to get thru to an addicted, foggy WS!"

Youy are right, people need to own their own part in what they have done. I disagree that reaching the point of being cruel and abusive is the ONLY way. The end does not justify the means.

"This is EXACTLY what I am talkign about BlackOpal!!! You have now taunted these other people to basically come out and do what YOU are doing!! You need to look at yourself here and see that you are doing exactly what you are condemning!"

You are right. I AM baiting them. I despise them. Every time I have made prior posts, what they says is "YOU LIAR! HOW DARE YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH."
You are right. I am letting them see my contempt for them. I do have contempt for them. I think they are mean petty people. I think they are enjoying inflicting pain.
I think they are scared. So scared that when anyone disagrees with them, they come out both fists swinging, screeching thir RIGHT based on God's word, to abuse, hurt, cause pain. If you disgree with them, they call you filthy names. How very Christian of them.
I believe they are WRONG. I believe they are scared little people who have to have rules and regulations all tied up ina ncie neat little bundle, strict parameters on thier lives so they can use their rules to attack other people. I believe they want to be all nice and safe and secure and have their little play pen so they don't have to THINK for themselves.

That is what I feel, that is what I think. However, you have stated you believe otherwise and they, naturally, is your own place. I am willing to hear you and try understand where you are ocming from. We don't have to agree with each other.

"I am sorry I have to be harsh with you here, BlackOpal. But you need to step back and really take a look at why so many vets say and do the things they do. and I will give you a hint...it isnt anger, or hurt, or animosity. It is concern and care for everyone that comes here and truly wants to do the right thing."

You HAVE tp be harsh with me? You are not actually in any position of authority over me on any grounds. I am not certain what a "harsh" standpoint with me you think will accomplish. I happen to totally disagree with you with regard to some of the people here. I have seen many old timers do exactly what is needed in a firm and compassionate way. I do respect them. I don't respect the abusers who attacl and then say, "jesus told me it was ok to call you a hore cause you are one."
There are only about 4 or 5 people on this site who do that but they are the instigators of about 90% of the upheaval that happens here. And just because I or anyone else stand up and say, "you are out of line, knock it off" does not mean they are also entiteled to go baliistic and call people names or start mocking or anything else. Though I am not surprised they do it since they have been doing successfully for quite some time.
I wish they would stop and I fully intend to stand up and protest everytime I see it, even if they have the usual Jesus made me do it screeching name calling fit.

You are right though, in the sense that I get sucked in by their abuse and begin doing it myself back. It is an issue for me that I am working on.

"Please take some time to re-evaluate what you have said here and your motivations, BlackOpal. As I have said, I know those that you speak of...and I know for a fact that your assumptions concerning them are completely off-base."

Am I off base? I don't think so. Perhaps they could convince me better if they calmly explain their stance instead of callimg me filthy names, calling me stupid, alluding to my background in derogatory ways, calling into question my personal education and intelligence. If they think I don't understand, fair enough. If they want me to understand, tell me thei reasoning. IF THEIR motivation is to educate and produce the result of understanding that is what they would be doing. IF THEIR motivation is to get the enjoyment of being abusive, then continuing on with the name calling, etc, is the obvious means of exercising that.
Perhaps that does not address MY motivations for my respnse well enough to you? I you don't understand, please tell me and I will try and expalin it better.
From what I have been reading here the last 4 years, it looks like these 4 -5 people are simply being abusive and are using religion as grounds for doing so.
I am not the only person who has protested it.

BO,
Anyone with an organic issue that is out of their control is truly not responsible for their actions. That is not a matter of the heart... it is an illness... nothing more, nothing less. God sees the heart of man.



It's funny that you choose to describe someone else with these terms..others here have viewed you this way also. Maybe it is time for you to take a look at the way YOU have come across on these boards. This thread has been nothing but positive and respectful... yet, here you are still being as negative as possible. I would suggest giving it a rest and learning from MM on his thread.

Bob, I understand what you are feeling and what you are trying to say. For me, the issue is not one of feelings or what *I* might feel is "just recompense" for sin perpetrated against me. It is NOT easy to "let go" at times, but it IS what God has told believers that they are to do.

On the basis that there is only ONE "unforgiveable" sin, I would therefore extend the "benefit of the doubt," if you will, to any marriage, at any point, when they surrender their lives to Christ. They ARE a "new creation" in the Lord.

Then, having recognized their former sin for what it was, they should seek forgiveness from those they sinned against (in addition to God). But one does NOT commit another sin in order to "repay" someone for the harm you did against them. To divorce, as a believer, can ONLY be done as a result of adultery, not because they realized that their current marriage was "birthed in sin."

That's sort of like saying that a couple should abort their pregnancy because the child was conceived in sin. It WAS. But that is not the issue at this time because we cannot "commit sin to atone for a sin that we committed."

Adultery by itself is bad enough, let alone a marriage that results from a WS and his/her "affair partner" or anyone else for that matter IS a marriage "conceieved in sin." But because of the Grace of God, that is not the "end of the story." Upon forgiveness from God because of a saving faith, "the rest of the story" begins to unfold.

God has NOT abandoned the Faithful Spouse through all of this either. God's plans for the Faithful Spouse are know to God, but not necessarily known to us as we face only TODAY in our limited knowledge. But we can rest in the sure knowledge and promise of Romans 8:28, nonetheless.


The issue of marriage following divorce IS a "sticky one" for everyone, but especially for Christians, because it is God who determines "legitimacy" of believers and not "man."

I am certain, for example, that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was not able to make "recompense" to all that he had stolen from, yet he was saved SOLELY because of his faith.

I am certain that David could not resurrect Urriah, but God recognized and blessed the "illegitimate" marriage of David and Bathsheba in their son Solomon and that Christ himself was descended from David's "line." Does it seem "fair?" Not to me it doesn't. Both adultery and murder were punishable by death in David's time, yet God chose to forgive based upon David's repentance. Remember, too, that David did NOT "escape the consquences" of his sin and rebellion against God. I bow to my Sovereign Lord and HIS omniscience and will and try to surrender my feelings and "outrage" to Him. I may not, this side of heaven, ever fully understand the "why" when God allows something to happen, but I do recognize His right to do whatever He deems simply because He IS LORD.

We ARE born sinners, and we, just like Paul, continue to "fight the fight" against our sin nature even after we have been saved. That's a big reason why we are to surrender our will to God's will. That's why Philippians 4:13 is so important to me, because I recognize that I DO NOT have the requisite strength within my own resources to face everything and do everything. But where God commands, God also provides ALL the resources that are necessary to DO what He has commanded as we walk in humble surrender to Him.

God bless.

You ask me to take chastisment from you, the person who called me a filthy name?

Yes, the same people who are the people I am speaking of are viewing me in the same way I am viewing them.

I said I disagreed with them and their statement that their being a christian gives them privilage to abuse and suddenly they are mocking me and calling me names.
You included.

Is your post an attempt to backtrack a bit and level the playing field? if it is, I respect that. Certainly I can post to you in a respectful way:

I disagree with your perspective, I am willing to hear your reasoning and try and understand. Are you willing to offer the same in return or are you just going to call me a dirty name again?

MEDC - I will try to give you the "Cliff Notes" sort of answer. If it's not enough, then ask follow-up questions and I'll try to answer those too.



All marriage between a man and a woman is a "legitimate" marriage in the sense that God has defined marriage as the union of a man and woman as being married. It can be a marriage "conceived in sin" and NOT a "God-honoring" marriage, but it is a marriage nonetheless.



Yes.



No, it is an "abomination," but that's not what we are talking about, are we? That would be like saying a "marriage" of homosexuals is not an "abomination" to the Lord. Besides, the premise you gave was that the people were both Christians, and NO Christian would try to marry their mother.



I would submit that such a marriage would NOT happen if the husband and wife ARE already saved Christians. "Could" it happen? Perhaps, but I believe that a truly saved Christian could NOT reject the Holy Spirit's convicting them of the sin they were attempting. The Scripture is quite clear that unrepentant adulterers WILL NOT be in heaven. If that is that case, then they could not have been truly saved to begin with.

Now wait just a dang minute! I'm on my third Exploder and love the product - aka repeat customer. So ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

This is utterly perplexing to me.

Just to clarify.

Are you saying that a true Christian would never have an affair (starting an affair would constitute unrepentant adultery, imho)? If so, then no one who starts an affair (at the beginning at least) is saved?

That doesn't seem to make any sense...

Mys