Mortorman,
I have not figured out how to do the boxed quote thing, so bear with me.
Let me help...when you want to put somethign in a box, put an "[" before the word "quote" and then a "]" after. Do this at the start of the paragraph that you want to highlight. When you want to end that quoted paragraph, do the same thign at the end of the paragraph. but before the "q" in the word "quote," you need to put a forward slash "/". Hope that helps!!
"What does that mean, BlackOpal? Sure, we all have our Cross to bear. And we do have many things in our life that help push us toward sin. None of us are perfect, as you outlined.
But being imperfect is NO excuse in God's eyes. Why? Because He provided a way to be perfect. So, even when I sin, if I am following Jesus...then He picks me up, dusts me off...and we begin again."
Right, so you are not perfect. You make mistakes, you pick yourself up, having come to understanding, you ask for forgiveness for the transgression (which God alwasy gives to the true repentant) and you move forward with intention not to sin again. You are not the only one God lends his grace to. Do you feel better, having made your mistakes, repented, asked for support and guidence, only to recieve attacks and condemnation and abuse? How would that help you?
Pick myself up? Nope. Not capable of that. He has to pick me up and dust me off. But I understand what you are saying. I have not seen anyone attacked (JJ specifically), condemned or abused. I just have not seen that.
I am refering above specifically people who have depression, anxiety disorders or other organic brain dysfunctions that interfere with clear thinking. I have seen people who are manic -depressive go off spend huge sums of money, cheat, have illusions that are no supported in real life. People who have been in wars, raped...I think saying "we all have our cross to bear" does not really apply to these people until they are in their "right mind again.
And of course, 95% of the people we are dealing with here do not fall into any of those categories, BlackOpal. But I do understand what you are saying. And in the case of JJ, I didnt see that any of those things applied to her. If they did, then a different tact might be warranted. But since she did not elude to being any of these things, then the methods used were appropriate.
"Again, I have not seen "rage" or "anger" expressed here. being harsh does not equal rage or anger!! As the vets here have learned, when dealing with someone in the fog, the last thing they need is for someone to be "nice" to them. The loving thing to do is "slap" them upside the face, to help them wake up. Being "nice" to them only leads to enablement!! The long history of many a WS that has come on here proves this to be true."
That may be true for the peson who comes here with a sense of entitlement and are careless about what they have done and make it plain they intend to continue in the same e direction.
It is a waste of time to beat up on someone who admits their error and that they have come to understanding.
Not beating up on the BlackOpal. She was not being beat up on. She was being given the realities of her situation.
Al it is providing is a sense of superiority and enjoyment to the person who is doing the attacking.
Again, none of the vets you are talking about feel superior to anyone on here and do not enjoy others' pain. I know that to be a fact!
I see it here over and over again. The person comes on, says, ok, I messed up, I realize what I did, can someone please provide me with guidence. Guidence does not include calling someone a bunch of names and in general kicking someone who is already down.
You are over simplifying what was discussed, BlackOpal.
I vigoruusly disagree with with your apparant persepctive that you have religious and moral grounds for doing so. I have NEVER seen Jesus beat up on the repentent sinner in the Bible EVER. It has NEVER happened.
Not beating anyone up here, BlackOpal. Not what I do, or thsoe that were involved. Unfortunately, you contineu to dead-wrong about this. Jesus didnt sweep sin under the rug either. He was rather harsh with it. He said "go and sin no more." Or to the rich man, He said "sell everything and follow me." Those were tough, harsh things to say to those people. But if they are truly repentent, then they will receive the guidance in the spirit that it is given.
Too often, supposed repentent WSs or others come here and believe that just because they are sorry, that things should work out. Not so! As a matter of fact, they shouldnt work out. Marriages beginning in adultery shouldnt work out! The odds show that. Anyone that expects their adulterous marriage to work out is basing their faith on folly. This is what everyone was trying to tell her. They were saying the consequence of your screw up is that this will NEVER be easy in this relationship. That if it is going to work out, it wil take extraordinary work and faith by both people. It CAN work out...but the odds are that it will not.
"BlackOpal, as you and I have just started posting to each other...let me warn you that you are accusing people of what you have done yourself. I can pull out your posts, and show where you start off being "compassionate," but the "bait" the person you are posting to by putting jibes or accusations in there. Be careful...because some would say that you are very close to hypocrisy here"
I disagree with you.
I called them on their unwarranted atatcks and pointed out that if they were basing their reasoning for doing so in their claim that they were a Christian, then they were in error. I still believe they were in error to beat up on someone who had already admitted their "sin" and was remorseful.
And if you JUST stated that, you would have been fine. But you went further.
In terms of me being a hypocrite... one person for a fact went back and edited what they wrote after I responded to their name calling, their abusive attacks, etc.
Admittedly, I do not like being condescended to , I do not like being called filthy names, I do not care for the vindictive spiteful, cruelty so gleefully displayed.
No one does. I agree with you that no one does. And if there was any, then it was wrong. But again, I know for a fact that the vets you are talking about gleefully attacked no one.
Did I respond in kind...no, I did not.
BlackOpal, I am really not tryign to bust your chops here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> But you have to look back and see that you responded in a different way that was baiting the others to respond in kind to you. Please look back and you will see many places where you should have left some paragraphs out. State your case...and be done with it.
Since they edited what they wrote, it makes me look like they did very little to provoke a strong repsonse. This person, though you believe otherwise, is to me deceitful, malicious, vindictive, enjoys inflicting pain, a liar, self entitled, and onward. In fact, I consider them one of the most dispicable people I have ever encountered on the this web site.
Okay, and this is your belief. And yo uare entitled to it. And guess what? You arent the first person to say something similar concerning her. But I also know many that have said this only to come back later and apologize because they had the wrong impression of her and what she was doing. So, all I can say is that I do know her, I have been around her for a long time...and your impression of her is not true. But again, you are entitled to your opinion!
Now, if you want to chastise me for the way I feel, that is up to you. If you want to point out to me that answering disrespect with more disrepsect is not likely to produce good results, I agree with you. It does not. It does point to my own buttons and my own personal issues, which is, I truely abhor people like the above mentioned peson. I have my own reasons.
Again, you are entitled to your feelings! All I am saying is that years and years of facts on here refute that...and if you are here long enough, you will come to find that out. As others have!!
So yes, you can point it out to me and I can see it. However I can also point a number of things out about you that I disagree with. For one you are proceeding on the broad assumption that your personal views are the "RIGHT" ones. I don't paticulalry think they are, but I am willing to hear what you have to say and try and see where you are coming from. My OWN view? When you die, I think you will be VERY surprised at what greets you at the Gate.
Oh, I do too. One of the biggest things in my life that I had to learn is to know when I dont know! It isnt what I knwo that scares me...it is what I dont know.
On this issue of my views, of course I believe them to be right. I would not present views I believe to be wrong. That would be insane! but again, anyone that knows me understands that I also am open to discussion, to learning. You can find many times where I have changed my mind about things on here when someone has proven that what I thought was wrong. It is why I started this thread. It is a discussion!! although I have been thru the study that I am going to post soon, I want to hear what others have to say...especially other Christians. Because if another Christian speaks something, and it is in not in violation of Scripture, then it is a good bet it came from God. God does NOT just speak thru Mortarman!! There are many of my brothers and sisters in Christ who have spoken His word to me and it took them to get it thru to me. Look at my thread concernign when I went thru court a month ago and you will see that this is true.
"Some people come on here not seeking help, but seeking justification for their actions. And they will never get that here...especially not from the vets. We are not dealing with children here. "
You are right. Some people do. And for those of us close to our pain, it is better to back away than to call people names and throw huge malicious tantrums, taking delight in the pain inflicted. Let those who are best equipped to be the iron fist in a velvet glove do it.
Again, your perception is that others jumped on her in delight. I know for a fact that is not true.
"We post on here...how can they "look" at you? many of the people you are eluding to dont hold any anger nor animosity towards you or anyone else. Are they harsh, upfront...to-the-point? Sure. And many times, that IS the compassionate thing to do!!!"
Up to a point, I agree with you. The "look" ok a figure of speech taken literally...ok I read what they post and the anger expressed is quite vindictive IMO.
But there was no anger.
Needlessly so. And these people are basis their right to abuse on the Bible and their claim that they are Christians.
They didnt abuse.
I disagree with that. I have seen some truley magnificnet Christians. They are so powerful, strong in their faith, and they have understanding and compassion. Truely Christ-like in every sense of the word.
To stand here and watch soem of the abuse that goes on in Gods name on this website...it sickens me.
There has been soem abuse on here. I knwo that to be a fact. There was not on JJ's thread. Not by the people you are pointing out.
You can disagree with my thoughts, that is fine, it how I feel and we are, despite what it may seem, coming at this from 2 entirely different perspectives.
That is very true.
"Again, no one here (the vets that you are eluding to) is delighting in any of this. I know these people...have seen hundreds of posts of theirs...and you could not be more wrong about them. They are using the same principles and tactics that have worked for years here in helping people in the fog to see the light of day.
I have had many WSs come on here and are taken aback by my rather harsh treatment of them. harsh in that I am not going to let them say "but you dont know my husband" or "this is so hard." If I give in to this and jsut say "oh, WS...I understand. it's okay. Yes your husband is horrible, blah, blah, blah..." then I am ENABLING that WS to continue!! What I need to say is "First off, WS...NONE of this is your husband's fault. This is yours. Own it!! And sure, this aint easy. But the right way is very simple. And you have two choices...continue to live in sin and to betray your honor, or do the right thing...the hard thing. What is it going to be?"
Now, that may be harsh...but it is the ONLY way to get thru to an addicted, foggy WS!"
Youy are right, people need to own their own part in what they have done. I disagree that reaching the point of being cruel and abusive is the ONLY way. The end does not justify the means.
No one was cruel or abusive. I know you believe this, but it just isnt true. Not what I read. Maybe something was deleted I didnt see.
"This is EXACTLY what I am talkign about BlackOpal!!! You have now taunted these other people to basically come out and do what YOU are doing!! You need to look at yourself here and see that you are doing exactly what you are condemning!"
You are right. I AM baiting them. I despise them. Every time I have made prior posts, what they says is "YOU LIAR! HOW DARE YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH."
You are right. I am letting them see my contempt for them. I do have contempt for them. I think they are mean petty people. I think they are enjoying inflicting pain.
I think they are scared. So scared that when anyone disagrees with them, they come out both fists swinging, screeching thir RIGHT based on God's word, to abuse, hurt, cause pain. If you disgree with them, they call you filthy names. How very Christian of them.
Okay. This is good. You see, the issue right now is not them...it is you. Let's say for a moment that you are right about them. Is it Christ-like to show contempt for them, to bait them? Again, I am not sure what filthy names were called or what you are eluding to...but you are justifying your own behavior because of others. That is why I said to look at yourself in this. It is okay to call out a brother or sister in Christ if they are not doing right.
But as you have admitted here, you have contempt and anger for these people. This is what you have accused them of having with JJ. This is where I meant that your own actions border on hypocrisy because your own intentions are not what they should be. Do you see??
I believe they are WRONG. I believe they are scared little people...
Here you go baiting. Why not say "I think they are scared..." instead of saying "little people?" Do you see?
...who have to have rules and regulations all tied up ina ncie neat little bundle, strict parameters on thier lives so they can use their rules to attack other people. I believe they want to be all nice and safe and secure and have their little play pen so they don't have to THINK for themselves.
Okay, this is your belief. I think over time, you will change that belief of these people you speak of, if you have an open mind and heart and stay around long enough. But whether or not you do...I am speaking right now to your issues here.
That is what I feel, that is what I think. However, you have stated you believe otherwise and they, naturally, is your own place. I am willing to hear you and try understand where you are ocming from. We don't have to agree with each other.
No we dont. That is true.
"I am sorry I have to be harsh with you here, BlackOpal. But you need to step back and really take a look at why so many vets say and do the things they do. and I will give you a hint...it isnt anger, or hurt, or animosity. It is concern and care for everyone that comes here and truly wants to do the right thing."
You HAVE tp be harsh with me? You are not actually in any position of authority over me on any grounds. I am not certain what a "harsh" standpoint with me you think will accomplish.
I meant that being harsh was that I am being straight up with you...being forward. Not couching my statements.
I happen to totally disagree with you with regard to some of the people here. I have seen many old timers do exactly what is needed in a firm and compassionate way. I do respect them. I don't respect the abusers who attacl and then say, "jesus told me it was ok to call you a hore cause you are one."
Well, I have never read anyone saying that! Please point that out to me. I do know that when a person wont listen, it sometimes takes "getting real" with them. Telling them exactly where they are at...no sugar coating.
There are only about 4 or 5 people on this site who do that but they are the instigators of about 90% of the upheaval that happens here. And just because I or anyone else stand up and say, "you are out of line, knock it off" does not mean they are also entiteled to go baliistic and call people names or start mocking or anything else. Though I am not surprised they do it since they have been doing successfully for quite some time.
Again, I believe you have the wrong impression of many of the people you speak of. I know them. Have talked with them personally. I know why they say what they say and why they are here. And it isnt the things you are stating.
I wish they would stop and I fully intend to stand up and protest everytime I see it, even if they have the usual Jesus made me do it screeching name calling fit.
You are right though, in the sense that I get sucked in by their abuse and begin doing it myself back. It is an issue for me that I am working on.
But there you go. Blaming your missteps on them. This is exactly why I first posted to you. I am nto trying to change your beliefs. I think if you have an open mind and heart, you will see the truth about them. So, I dont worry about that. But I am posting to you because you are justifying your own anger and contempt by what they are doing or supposedly doing. And you need to knwo that your actions have NOTHING to do with them. That is all I have been trying to get you to see.
"Please take some time to re-evaluate what you have said here and your motivations, BlackOpal. As I have said, I know those that you speak of...and I know for a fact that your assumptions concerning them are completely off-base."
Am I off base? I don't think so. Perhaps they could convince me better if they calmly explain their stance instead of callimg me filthy names, calling me stupid, alluding to my background in derogatory ways, calling into question my personal education and intelligence. If they think I don't understand, fair enough. If they want me to understand, tell me thei reasoning. IF THEIR motivation is to educate and produce the result of understanding that is what they would be doing. IF THEIR motivation is to get the enjoyment of being abusive, then continuing on with the name calling, etc, is the obvious means of exercising that.
Perhaps that does not address MY motivations for my respnse well enough to you? I you don't understand, please tell me and I will try and expalin it better.
again, I understand what you are saying and the position you are in. But the results you desire are not going to happen as long as you pursue the tact you have. No matter what they do! I hope you can see that.
From what I have been reading here the last 4 years, it looks like these 4 -5 people are simply being abusive and are using religion as grounds for doing so.
I am not the only person who has protested it.
I know of what you are saying, as I stated above. I know of people on here that have protested on here...only later to see what soem of these people were doing or trying to do. And then come back and apologize for not seeing it. Do any of us make mistakes here? Sure. But I do believe that you have most of these folks painted all wrong.
Standing in His Presence
