This has been an interesting thread. We talk a lot about marriages, and leave the parenting part out...

Quotes from NBII


I would say children from the intact marriage are a special breed. There are far fewer of them. Most kids are from a home rocked by a difficult situation. Death, alcholism, abuse, absenteeism. Divorce is not "special." Just different. Everyone faces problems. And I daresay, the worst problems the average kid faces in the states are far less than the rest of the world. Yet strangely the world produces quite a few adjusted, fully functioning adults.


If I was on a businees trip, and step mom had to handle a situation, she is going to what? Say "wait until your father gets home?" What if I was deployed and going to be gone for many months? Discipline is far best administered quickly, decisively, and in a form that is appropriate for the infraction.

So the message is only a biological parent can discipline? What does that kid then do in school? Or at a job? Or when approached by a police officer? Do these authority figures not matter because they are not biological parents?

When I have a new friend of my sons over for a spend the night or an extended stay, I make sure that the kids parents know that in the Walker house there are rules and there are punishments that apply to all. Their child is welcome and their child will be loved, but if they break the rules two things can occur:
a) they face the same punishment mine do
b) the parents come get the kids immediately. Even if it is 2 am.

I have never had a parent NOT let their kids stay. We even discuss corporal punishment. So it is all out on the table. And when my kids stay at their homes, I go over the same stuff with the receiving parents.


It is actually pretty easy. I have been very successful at dealing with what I have been told is a "problem" child. In fact, I have never met one of these "problem" children. (And I do A LOT with kids.)

You speak to them on their level. You respect what they have to say. You make them feel safe. You don't scare them. You keep your word to them. You make the boundaries of behavior clear. And you enforce them, no exceptions. You lead by example. And above all, you apologize to them sincerely for any mistake you make.


I know exactly what you mean. I am not an advocate of "yelling" (anger) but I do know when to use my "command voice" (authority). There IS a difference.

Quotes now from ark^^


I whole-heartedly agree. I am not the one saying "child child" I am saying almost adult. The "real world" will consider her an adult in 2 short years. She is 88% of the way there. NOT a child. Bet she has whipped out the "I'm not a kid anymore" line a bunch of times already to her dad. SHE doesn't think she is a kid. Is she an adult? No. But she isn't a kid anymore, either. Why is it that when our kids say the (truthful) message in various ways of acting out I'm not a kid!!! we reply with YES YOU ARE!!!! They're not. They're just not adults.


This sixteen year old is physically capable of committing a crime to such a degree that she would be tried as an adult. A 4 year old is not. This is not a child. This is not a child. This is not a child.


I'll bite, ark. My son, who was just over 13, when told I was going to leave mom had this reaction: "Jeez, dad, about time. After what she was putting you through..." He figured it out by observation.

I was stunned. I will never underestimate his perceptiveness gain. Or the next two DS in line.

Now. Ms. Sturgis went out and REPLACED dad. Is dad doing the same? Or is dad filling the void in his life? Bet the daughter knows the difference.

Futher, my gosh, at least he is not making the COMMON mistake parents make, even in "intact" marriages, of elevating a child to implied spousal status because the actual spouse is not meeting some need. I say, hooray for Sturgis, because he isn't using his daughter to replace his wife. (And I DON'T mean sexually. This goes on in other facets of a relationship BESIDES sex. And frankly, it is just as scary and damaging to a kid because it is MUCH more insinuating and harder to root out later.)


I have never seen a child give an authority figure a "run for their money" that they did not LET happen. Children DO NOT give parents "runs for their money." The parents let it happen. JMHO.


Who is the "her?" DD or GF? I think I got it from what you said below, but I might be wrong.


If I was Sturgis daughter and saw this, I would be pretty mad at you ark. First for insinuating I (at 16) could only deal with low level basics, and second because you know what I feel. period....

She probably DID think that in the moment (hence the blow up). But don't underestimate her. After she cooled off, she could easily have thought

dad chose to support good behavior and stand against bad behavior ...
I really was being nasty ...
At least this GF has a backbone ...
I am really in a funk over this (D, dad and GF) and needed a wake-up call ...


Which is a selfish agenda. My 7 year old already knows not to be selfish. I'd call this a refresher course for her.


I'd frankly be scared to death if I had a 16 year old who thought the world revolved around him/her. In two short years that kid is going to have to do a complete 180 on that line of thinking. Or they won't have a real friend or a job.

C'mon ark. This kid knows this stuff. You don't get through freshmen year of high school and not know the world doesn't even begin to emulate and orbit around you unless you are captain of the football team or cheerleading squad.


I'd say her brain is almost done. Maybe simmering to mix the flavors.

There is an awesome book called "Parenting with Dignity." And I paraphrase the following....

A child leaves the womb with his parents making 100% of his decisions. When he eats, where he sits in the room, when he moves, what he sees, wears, holds, etc. Every moment after that, this percentage drops. Until the child hits 18 (or so) and leaves the nest. At that point, the parents choices are 0%

Sturgis is making about 20% of the choices for this kid now. In a little while, the "rest of us", the world, will definatively and mercilessly take care of this "attitude problem." Even if the girlfriend was out of line, there must be a certain level of care that was present. I mean, if GF HATED DD, she would most likely find someone else. Yes. Not daddy. Yes, comment stung. As much as a pink slip? That's what boss will give her. Expulsion? Possible choice of her college administration. Confinement? Drill sergeant would choose that. Alienation? That's what her 19 yr old peer group will chose when she is magically and instantly NOT a child and there are no adults around to make things "fair and safe."

And all you "put the children first-niks," I am going to make probably an inflammatory statement here....

Is that what you did in your marriages? And what was the result....

I could agree with "protect your children from major harm at all costs."

I could agree with "make them feel important and loved."

I could agree with "be consistent and lead by example."

Put them first? And teach them, by example, that the spouse, or significant other, does NOT come first?

I am not saying that every floozy Sturgis feels he needs to hook up with should take precedence over the needs of his daughter. And I don't think that Sturgis is doing that. I may be wrong, but my impression is that this GF was selected with reasonable care, his separation from WW has been around 2 yrs, and he is pretty serious about this GF. Yes. She may not work out. DD knows this. She has probably had dozens of crushes and broken hearts by now.

Know what really pisses a teen off? Underestimate them. It is VERY invalidating.

Sturgis
Do you IGNORE your daughter or do you listen to her? Can you name her friends, the last movie she saw, the music she likes, what troubles her? Could you tell me if she would find a joke I told you funny? Do you know if she wants to go to college? Which one?

If you can answer yes to questions like that, my rough guess is you are involved in her life. How about time? How many hours a week do you give her one-on-one time? I haven't seen those questions answered. I have just seen a lot of assumptions that you are putting GF first. I will say it again. I don't see that you did anything major wrong here. If I had to choose anything, it would be that GF snapped daughter to before you did. You were there, man.

NCWalker

(If you are interested in the book, and I don't reccomend many, here is a link: Parenting with Dignity

NCW,

Very thoughtful post! And interesting, too...


I agree that discipline is far better administered quickly whenever possible.

In the case of a deployed H, I have no idea what the best course of action would be. I would expect that the couple have discussed what should happen while daddy's gone. For me, this isn't my reality.

As to what I would do in an airplane - there would have to be extra-ordinary circumstances to find myself alone on an airplane with a child, biological or otherwise. I would take precautions to never have that happen.

When the kids are around, Dad's around. In my case, one time of acting out in public was enough for me. Dad was *there* you understand, and HE couldn't control him, so... you think I'm going to put MYSELF and THE KID in that kind of volitile and failure-prone situation? No.

Look, I'm all for being treated with respect and having kids mirror our respectful behavior. I will not tolerate disrespect, and as I said, my step-kids know EXACTLY what I expect, and I've NEVER disciplined them. It is their father's job.


You speak of punishing other children in your home. That takes some guts these days. My ex-H got repremanded at this job at an elementary school when he carried an injured little girl to the office. He could have been fired. It's because you cannot lay a HAND (even a caring, helping hand) on a child. And you use corporal punishment on OTHER PEOPLE'S children? Well, I guess as long as the parent's agree... but I don't know that for sure. What if little Johnny got a smack at NC's house and his teacher noticed a mark? Little Johnny could get you arrested, and all without any input from his parents.

PS: I'm ALL FOR having the Mom and Dad come get the misbehaving child, even if it's 2am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Where did you get the idea that I don't advocate respect and dignity? C'mon, NC. Of COURSE children need to respect authority, but not because the authority figure has the power to inflict physical punishment.



I don't even know what to say to this.

EASY?

Wow.

What makes you think I don't respect children and expect them to lead by my example?

I'm honestly flabergasted at the word "easy"...

My son is a loving, wonderful, special young man. He was very troubled as a child, had many problems that I won't explain here (including disabilities), and you're telling me that everything I DID (doing what you stated) makes it easy. I find your use of the word easy insulting.

NC, I always enjoy reading your posts. You're thoughtful, wise and you write well. The book you mention sounds interesting, and although my children are grown, I might just check it out one day.

I just find the direction of this discussion upsetting, to say the least.

this was a pretty well thought out response...

""Sturgis
Do you IGNORE your daughter or do you listen to her? Can you name her friends, the last movie she saw, the music she likes, what troubles her? Could you tell me if she would find a joke I told you funny? Do you know if she wants to go to college? Which one?

If you can answer yes to questions like that, my rough guess is you are involved in her life. How about time? How many hours a week do you give her one-on-one time? I haven't seen those questions answered. I have just seen a lot of assumptions that you are putting GF first. I will say it again. I don't see that you did anything major wrong here. If I had to choose anything, it would be that GF snapped daughter to before you did. You were there, man.""


yes....i can answer "yes" to all of these things...as a matter of fact....both my son and daughter have supported my relationship with GF through out the past year and a half...

as with any relationship...there is growth that includes "hills and valley's"...

my daughter is mad at her mom...mom uprooted her, sold house, moved away from friends and numerous other things....although i try to seperate the two issues...

mom plays a HUGE part in allowing and at times ENCOURAGING bad behavior...

its unfortunate that i am made out to be the "bad dad" by my X and daughter because i enforce boundries and discipline....

but...as we all know...life is not always fair...

like my therapist (who is intimatley aware of our sitch) said....

"keep doin what im doin"....

enforce boundries...discipline when needed and DO NOT REWARD bad behavior...

the GF made a mistake that she is now the focus of attention...

its easy to "beat" someone who in reality cannot FIGHT BACK....and if she were to fight back...it would DESTROY any chance of future relationship with my kids...

this is REALITY....

its not fair...its not right...but its the life SO many of us lead now...being single parents or climbing out of the wreckage of a divorce...

i am a totally involved and aware parent....thats why this is so troublesome for me...and so hard...

my X hardly cares what the kids do, unless she can manipulate them and use them to hurt me...

but...i cant say anything BAD about mom to the kids....it would only serve me poorly....

this is something that i hope someone in a similar situation can take and use if faced with this type of problem...

all the points are well taken and the GF wouldn NEVER replace one of my kids....whats hard for her is that she KNOWS this....

being in a relationship like so many of us face is sometimes worse than the original sin that got us here.....

(my fingers are tired now) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But if it were, you'd be taking good steps. Bet your ex-H would state the most parents weren't well versed in school rules until their kid violated one. The discipline question should be addressed up front when kids are in your care, or you place yours in others.


But what if Dad is NOT around....


Some questions:

1) Do you feel it is the dads job to discipline? Ideal situation being parents agree on the rules of the house (POJA) that the kids adhere to, but dad is the administrator of discipline, with mom providing complete agreement and support?

2) What if it is mom and STEP-dad? Is that no longer the ideal situation? Because he is not biological dad? What if WH is biological dad, and has flown off the deep end, as WH are wont to do. But STEPdad is a great man. Do you still trust WH judgement for discipline?

3) How come I can adopt a child, even an older one, and assume the mantle of discipline? This child is not mine biologically.... Is that different if I marry a woman who's XH is still alive? What if he is dead-beat? What if he is a great person? What if I marry this woman and she moves in my house? I can't enforce behavior in my own house?


Not really. I have found most parents appreciate the discussion. And I may have misled. I have not spanked another person's child. I discuss corporal punishment, and the things that result in the corporal punishment of my children, in the sense of finding out where the other family stands on discipline. If they do not have what I consider adequate disciplinary practices, what invariable happens is that their kids are hellions and mine have a crappy time because they cannot "do" what these kids do. A poorly disciplined child is not welcome in my house for long. How else are you going to know? If the other parents are "poor disciplinarians" (and I know that is my opinion and judgement) then I watch their kids more closely.

I HAVE lined up a few kids in chairs and made them sit for being too rambunctious in the house. It was prefaced with a verbal - "I know you may have forgotten the rules, so I will remind you..." 5 minutes later, they were at it again. 30 seconds later they were sitting in a row of chairs under pain of death <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I told the parents, and if they had said "Not to my kid..." I would have said, "Well, Johnny will be on the porch, you know where I live."

Both the other sets of parents were actually quite appreciative and did not feel it too harsh. They knew the rules when they dropped the kids off.


Didn't. I got the idea that you felt only biological parent could/should discipline. I was attempting to see how far that extended. Kids draw weird lines sometimes. Saw a 9 year old screaming at a scoutmaster "You're not my dad, you can't make me!!!" for stopping him from doing something that could have harmed himself or the other kids. Boy. What do you do with that? Lots of parents drop kids off at scouts and use it as a babysitter. Great role models, those. It is pretty sad. But if the Scoutmaster does nothing and YOUR kid got hurt by this hellion, what would YOU say?

I am all on board about your ex. And it is DAMN SCARY. Youth ministers, coaches, scout masters, etc. Those people need support at each and every turn. You can't turn a kid in need away, but if he is damaging the others in the group, and your hands are tied in a disciplinary fashion, well, that is tough. Solution: EVREYONE is aware of the discipline structure before they drop off the kid. If they don't like it, don't drop off the kid. Coach little league? Did you let the parents know the kid is running 5 laps for swearing or unsportsmanlike conduct? I'd think about that one.


I don't. I was responding to your word "hard." It is easy to foster a relationship with a child, no matter their emotional state. In fact, it sometimes makes it easier. The kid is desparete for a relationship. Just do what I said. And maybe it is simple, a better word choice. It CAN be trying. It CAN be frustrating. But it is not difficult. Just need patience and a good formula.

Sorry. Relating to kids has always been easy for me. Whenever I go to a public place, there is usually a gaggle of kids around me within a half hour or so. Venue doesn't really matter. In fact, it works when I visit foreign countries and there is a language barrier. Maybe it is because I look like a muppet.


I would have been too had I read what you read. But I wrote what I wrote and you read what you read. Now I read what you read and I am writing again, becuase I want to write what I wanted to write and not what you read. Huh??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


And I find you giving me the opportunity to clarify very uplifting very refreshing and a good example of what this board needs.

Sorry I upset you. Cyber beer?

Sturgis,



Trust me, trust me, trust me. Did I say trust me? EVERY kid resents their parents at some point. When they think they are an adult, but not quite, it usually starts.

EVERY kid will find SOMETHING to hang this resentment on. It is a method of stretching themselves to be "not you." For if they wanted to be you, well then you'd have to be right, and not a geek, and all that stuff. Kids aren't gonna do that. (But secretly, inside, when their friends say "Your dad's cool" they're smiling, and thinking "Yeah, dad IS cool." All the while telling the friends what a dork you were for the time you drank the coke with the bee in it which stung the back of your throat and made you talk like you swalled a squeaky toy for a week.)

What you have here, is your XW has given the DD a guided missle lock-on to fire that resentment at. But she would have found something had your XW not given her the "gimme putt." It just wouldn't have been so colorful.

And by the way, one of my favorite lines to MY kids is "There isn't a fairness clause on your birth certificate." They hate that. Then they tell their friends what a dork I am.


To which I would only add "And don't frivolously change the rules of the game with them, especially when you are angry, frustrated, or tired."


And it is good that it is troublesome. Because it means you are watching her. But guess what? In Rwanda, girls your daughters age are brutally raped by roving gangs for no reason at all other than they are young and female. And they make it. Be wary, but I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.


And the first time your kids are "used" wrongly in real life, a giant bell will go "ding..." NOW I understand. What will they think of mom then?


My only regrets about my D are when I let bad things slip about mom. It happens. See my post WAAAAY above? It is not wrong to apologize to your kids for YOUR bad behavior.


Hard for her who? GF? Replace your kids? Nah. Nobody could do that... Never be more important to you THAN your kids? As in, your 1st and primary relationship? Wrong message, man.

Don't believe me? Just reverse it....

Sturg (to DD): Listen honey, about this guy you're going to marry...
DD: Yeah?
Sturg: See. It would be wrong for any other person other than your mother to be my most important relationship, so, just remember that, I should be more important to you that the scumbag...er. I mean your fiancee.

Even kid logic would figure that out. Folks - husband and wife relationship is NUMERO UNO. So the biological husband and wife didn't work out, that's life. If a new wife or husband comes along, NUMERO UNO. Otherwise, when your kids have kids, their example is going to be sacrifice all for the kids. Then nothing left for spouse, then divorce. And your GRANDKIDS are going to go through what your kids did.

Why did my marriage end? It is a horse of many different colors and flavors, but it's name is "I didn't make my wife NUMERO UNO." And she did not reciprocate that to me. What is plan A? Make your spouse NUMERO UNO.... How come plan A doesn't have some caveat that says "as long as the kids come first..." You have to provide, care, and not neglect them, of course, but if they do not see that the marriage is FIRST, that is the wrong message. (JMHO)


In-freakin'-deed. And what keeps ME sane and able to keep plugging away through the pile of poo I was handed is that my circumstances do not change my life choices. They only make it more or less difficult to execute them. That is called personal responsibility.

Sounds like you got it, Sturg.

Hi NC,

My H has been very patient with me this evening. Normally, when he's home, I don't get on here like this... but tonight I got totally emotionally involved and waited around to see if you'd write back.

I'm so glad you did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And cyber beer is a very good thing!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



Okay, let me explain. In the beginning of my second marriage, my H and I discussed, both privately and in counseling, what my role would be.

Also, in the case of an every-other-week visitation schedule, it is of paramount importance that the kids get time with Dad, not with me.

Now, a couple of times I was alone with them. His daughter was no problem at all, but his son had some severe problems, which as I say, I don't discuss publicly. It was very, VERY difficult, and he acted out physcially at times. The second time I spent the entire time with them in tears, and called my H to come home because what I was doing wasn't working (trying to discuss why the behavior wasn't appropriate)... and by that time, both kids were involved and hitting each other, screaming at the top of their lungs, etc. Understand, when Dad came home, it didn't change a lot. Dad was dealing with guilt about the divorce, and the kids were dealing with all the stuff that kids deal with when faced with divorce and remarriage of BOTH parents (my H's ex remarried and divorced again within a year of our marriage)... THOSE POOR KIDS. A fine mess. Anyway, I just got out of harms way. It's the only thing I could do.

I went back to therapy and was told to never get in the middle of anything that could harm me, and I took it to heart.


I believe in a step-family situation, the BIOLOGICAL PARENT should discipline. Whether it's Mom or Dad doesn't matter.

In my first (20) year marriage, I was the disciplinarian, Dad was a workaholic, and when around, a passive-agressive conflict avoider. Sheesh, I hate saying that about him, but it's the truth. He's a good guy and I have oodles of respect for him now, but during our marriage, he was ... mostly absent. Now where was I? Oh yeah, I believe Mom or Dad can discipline.

I would love to embrace the "It takes a village" mentality when it comes to children. It's a truly LOVELY ideal. And in the case of adoption -- adoptive parents ARE the parents, so of course I fully accept and support their discipline.

Grandparents? Yep. Uncle Bud? Sure, if Mom and Dad and Bud have an understanding of what discipline is and should be. The teacher at school? Yes, to discipline, No, to corporal punishment.

That said, teacher's are stressed enough, and I don't think I want a stressed out teacher who has to deal with 30 kids, half of whom are likely ADHD and troubled, to have a stick in her/his hand. Send the kid to the principal and call Mom and Dad.


Okay, that's fair and makes sense. I respect that. And Phew! on the other.


Again, a sit in a chair works for you, and the other parents, then I have no trouble with that.

You ask what I would do if I HAD to discipline other's children... it would look like what you said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I used to do this when I taught Sunday School: Find a teenager to come in, while I went and got the parent OUT OF CHURCH to take care of their unruly child.

I agree that some parents use sports, church and activities (like scouts) as babysitters, and it STINKS. But I bet they need a break too... after seeing a few of those kids. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Oh NC, I have worked with many disturbed kids and adults (I was in the disabilities field for over 10 years)...

So not easy. I'm really understanding... because I was a disturbed kid with ADHD and asthma (with the requisite inhaler - yee gads - talk about 'dork' and having 'weirdo' written all over you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )... I understand kids with issues. But some kids, like my very own son, are so beyond what compassion and respect can heal...

Thank God that in spite of it all, my son survived (and I use that word purposely)... because he tried to commit suicide when he was eight years old. Very, very disturbed. And I couldn't then, nor now, love him any more. Not one bit more...

It wasn't enough.

But I do understand if you have a gift! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't have that gift. I have the gift of gab though, as you might have noticed.

Now off to spend the rest of the night with my sweet husband!