MrsRob,

Rose & JL are spot on! I feel that by not doing the macho thing and beating OM within an inch of his life or killing him I truly am less a man in other men's eyes. I know this is a wrong feeling, but some days it becomes overpowering, add to the mix WW still defends OM and his actions to break NC and I really think the macho thing should have been done!

Could this be an issue for your H?

Eagle, I don't think so. OM and I NEVER met (though when BH is being mean, he says how would he know?") ANd I never defend OM or myself or my actions. And only 4 people know- 2 people at church and 2 at my work. So it's not like lots of people know he was cheated on.

He's asking for other details every so often now- the thing is, I try to NOT remember! But he says now my whole sexual history is questionable now- even though I have only had physical SF with him and my former husband. I did have, and admitted to, phone sex with OM.

It's like our marriage is a zero sum game. If I win, he loses. If he wins, I lose.....

But maybe my attitute should be if HE wins I (and my FAMILY) win too. But I don't know what winning means to him. All he says he wants is for me never to have done what I did. I can't change that......

He does say that he doesnt' see how we can ever get over it, but that with God all things are possible....

He is very conflicted.

EGG ZAK LEE

In order for him to feel safe to go "all in" the marriage again .... YOU need to lead the way ....

YOU plow the road

YOU remove the rocks

YOU pull most of the weeds

..... for now ...

YOU have NO IDEA just how powerful you are (in regards to your H) right now!

Pep

How would he know?

What he thought he knew was a certainty, turned out to be false ... his entire world has shifted.

~~~ gravity no longer works ~~~

he's floating with no anchor

no baseline of what works

no sense that he can tell truth from fiction

in other words ~~~> He has lost faith/trust/confidence that he could spot a fake 6 dollar bill !!!

Pep

Mrs. Rob,

"Rose- did your BH go through a period of time where he didn't want SF with you? We are 4 months out of the EA, and have had more SF than usual.....now he does not want any "for awhile." He has said this before but I've been able to convince him to have it...but last night and this morning he threatened to D me if I tried anymore.....but SF is totally important to him- always has been- and I'm so afraid that if he doesnt' even want that from me then there's no hope...."

Couples are different, and all of my H's and my situation won't be exactly the same as someone else's, but some of our experience has been predictable. Such as, for a few months after d-day, we had more SF than usual. Then it went back to "normal" for us. It was 2 years before my H lost interest in having SF with me (but we had a 2nd d-day when I confessed contact had gone on with FOM longer than he thought), and we really haven't picked up the pace since, although we do have SF.

He usually doesn't refuse me, but he doesn't initiate, either. He is near the same age as your H, and sometimes I think that has something to do with it, but I also know my H is depressed, and stressed from other life events, which is something else that happens as the years go by. Other life "stuff" happens that has to be dealt with. In a way, other crises can detract from the A issues, and make you feel stronger because you have survived yet another problem, but they also add stress.

My H won't go to IC. He still believes the dust will finally settle, I think. We've been M for 30 years, though, and I know there are "on" and "off" times in the bedroom over the years, and have learned to wait it out. My H and I are both 51, and I had already anticipated having to make adjustments for our changing bodies. However, he did tell me a couple weeks ago that SF is difficult because he still can't stop thinking about me being with FOM. At 4 months, your H is still in shock. Give him time. Respect his boundaries about SF, just like you would want him to respect you when you don't feel like having SF.

I hate to tell you, but the roller coaster ride is very rough, and it goes on for a long time - both partners going back and forth between "we can make it," and "I want out." It's a very painful process, and it ain't for sissies.

Also I'm sure you realize that "LB all over the place being needy and whiny and clingy and crying" is not attractive and is only adding to your H's stress. I learned that things began to go better when I quit asking my H if he wanted a D, and concentrated on proving that I didn't want a D. He finally told me that sometimes when I asked him if he wanted a D, he wondered if I was bringing it up because I wanted a D (I didn't). (One thing my H and I have always done is try to read each other's minds, though, another communication breakdown practice we have been trying to stop).

It got to the place after 2 years that I finally realized that if I were to commit to the M, that meant that I would no longer consider a D, no matter how my H acted (barring physical abuse, of course, which has never happened). There have been days when I have briefly changed my mind, but I pray about it, and believe that if God wants us to stay M, He will help us. It encourages me to remember all that God has done for us already (quite a lot!).

Eagle15,

Re your feeling that other men will think less of you: You wrote "I know this is a wrong feeling"…I just wanted to remind you that feelings aren't right or wrong, they just ARE. You feel what you feel. We might be able to change our attitudes, but feelings aren't that easy to change. One of my myriads of IC's insisted that if we change our thoughts, our feelings will follow, but I sometimes think that's debatable.

God bless,
Rose

The thing is, is that in the recent past if I have respected his wishes in regards to SF, he gets angry and tells me I just didn't try hard enough. Last night we discussed that- fought about it- and he said, "well, I'll just take care of myself and then I won't want it from you." He has said that his having an affair might be one way for him to "get over" what I did. But then in the next breath he says, "I would never do that, MrsRob, I'm not like you."

You're right, I need to behave as if I don't want a divorce, I really don't, I need to behave as though I have the marriage I really want.

The one thing I've always wanted in our marriage is security and it's the one thing he has never given. He says, "you had it before." But we have both threatened D throughout our marriage. Not right. And now he says I dont' deserve it. Hopefully over time it gets better...

I know it's going to be a rollercoaster for a long time.

You know what it is? Is that he doesnt' think our marriage is worth fighting for since I had this EA. He says he loved me more than anyone else ever....but now I'm just not worth it.

What I did was a horrible betrayal of trust and my marriage to the one person I was never supposed to do this to.

But if he really loved me, wouldnt' he want me to be repentant? Wouldnt' he want to see that I want to stay married and make our marriage good?

I see all these BS fighting for their marriages- like I would have done had it been BS who had the A- and my BH just says, "F-u, you're not worth it and if it weren't for dbaby I would have already divorced you."

His big sticking point is that when he found out the first time and made me do NC- I did not do it. I continued. Of course this was horrible on my part and an even bigger betrayal of trust. He says if I had just stopped then he could forgive that- but me continuing.....unforgivable. However...all things are possible with God....he says....though he thinks it's hopeless....

So now I fight for a marriage with someone who is 99.999% sure he'll never love me or trust me again- and he's 100% sure he'd rather divorce except for the baby.

Is this worth it????? I want to stay married, but is this typical of BS or is it insurmountable???

If he doesnt' want to stay married, we won't.

Which book describes Plan A in detail? My plan A is sucking...

MrsRob,

I wasn't specifically saying you were defending OM, what I meant was my WW still to this day defends OM. I didn't mean to say or imply you were doing this. Sorry.

MrsRob -
"is this typical of BS or is it insurmountable???"

I don't know if it is typical (I'm guessing it is), but it's understandable that your H is conflicted and confused about what he wants to do right now. He has a lot of emotions to work through. You are both in a crisis.

Is there anyone the two of you could talk to who is pro-marriage (counselor, pastor, relative you trust), or someone he could talk to alone who could help him sort things out?

Our pastor was one person we went to for MC (we did secular MC as well). My H later told me that what he needed in those first few days was someone he trusted who could tell him that it was o.k. to stay with me! It helped him to hear someone supportive say it was possible to get through this. He also spoke with his dad. Does your H have anyone he could confide in?

God bless,
Rose

Mrs.Rob,

Except for the fact that I'm not a guy, I could be your BS. I even called OW and threatened to beat the crap out of her. Sort of "manly" of me, don't you think?

Anyway.

Maybe I can give you a little insight into where he might be.

He threatens D for several different reasons. First, he has passing desires to just throw his hands up in the air, divorce you, and be done with the whole mess. Second, it would help him save face. Third, he thinks you probably want a divorce. These reasons, and other reasons as well, rotate around in his head, depending on....well, sometimes I thought they depended on the barometric pressure! But they just come and go.

He stays because deep down that is what he wants. He uses the baby because that is only part of it. He wants to be married. He wants to be married to you. He wants this whole mess to be over, but he can't have that, because this whole mess haunts his every waking moment - and his every sleepless night - and his dreams. He cannot escape it, he hates it, hates that it happened, and likely the one BIGGEST THING THAT HE HATES MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE:


He cannot fix it.




It will not go away, and he can't think of the solution, the "thing he can do" that will solve this problem. Men are action oriented (generally speaking), and want to actively do something to make things better, and then go on. I am very much the same way. But what I have found is that this thing hangs around. Little crappy things remind me right when I least expect it, and BANG!, I feel like I'm back to square one.

At four months out, I was a total basket case. I needed my FWH to actively participate in meeting my ENs to recover. He didn't read the books. He didn't read the website. He didn't want to have conversations. He basically wanted to "be nice" to me, and hope things got better. Well, they didn't! He needed a better plan, and I am the one who had to do the work to get us to where we are now. I resented that, for certain. But ultimately, when I told him straight up what I was thinking, he jumped wholeheartedly into the recovery mode, read the books, had the talks, and I can say we are moving forward nicely now. Get the books - and do what they say to do. "After the Affair" and the website for Dear Peggy are good sources, as well as this site of course.

For your part right now today, he says he wants you to be a better housekeeper, he's trying to tell you that is one of his ENs. Fill that need, however you can. And if he won't do the EN questionnaire, take it for him yourself (I actually had to do that during my Plan A, and I got pretty close to his results!). Then start making deposits. He needs them, whether or not he even understands or realizes it yet.

Regarding SF - I understand him there too. I wanted SF with WH, and then I would be pi$$ed off at myself for it! Wasn't I supposed to be mad at him? Why would I want to make love with someone I was so angry with? That one really got me crazy. Hang in there, and let him work it through - he will. Be gentle, be loving, and just hold him when he is down. Don't push him, he will come back in this department. He just needs time to work through the movies in his mind.

One small 2X4. At this point, the work for recovery is on your shoulders. You cannot shoot someone and then complain about the blood on the floor. No more whining. We here in Texas say you need to "Cowboy Up". That means, you have work to do - and when you have the kind of hard work ahead of you that you have, you do not have time for complaining. Read about Plan A, and stop worrying about your own Love Bank for now. YOU are now the giver.

Get to work giving. He needs you. And your baby needs two parents who are on the same team.

SB


PS - By the way, what is it with this winning and losing stuff? When I got married, there was nothing in the vows about keeping score. You need to leave that behind, because it isn't working for you.

Rose- there is no one that BH will talk to. Our bishop even said he'd PAY for counseling, and no go. He has no close friends he'd EVER admit this to, and no family living. This is a big problem, as now he feels he has no one to talk to now that he can't trust me.

SB, thank you for your very inspiring words. You are right, I need to stop whining that this is not fair that I have to do all the work- well, who put us in this position?? ME! So I will dig the books out of the box they're in and read and implement. I kind of have to do it "in secret" as BH does not believe in any "self-help crap." But if I really do it, he'll believe.

Just yesterday morning he asked me (just me, not my children or the baby) if I would move out...then he made it a point to go to church for an hour, taking off work to do it, nudging me to hold his arm like I do when the prayers are said, and asking me to go for a drive with him..and we had a pretty good evening....

I will do the work and hopefully get the good results I desire.....

I don't understand why you are deciding you are settling just a few months since the end of the chaos...

why do people believe there is a instant fix and mending of these things....

why would you say you are settling this early in the game...

time to process
time to greive
time to think....

not time to decide
THIS
is as good as it gets..

I only read the your first post...
and none of the other responses...

cause when I first read it a week ago..
this was my response...

is your marriage oatmeal..
with instant results


ARK

Hi Ark- it has to do with the marriage being very shaky before my EA....

BH says, "it was crappy before, now you've killed off the rest of it."

I know there's not instant results, but I am just hoping to get enough time so that I can get the results I want.

I believe that actions speak louder than words, but that words hurt also.

So here is what I am going to DO and what I am not going to say anymore. I'm writing it here so I can have some sort of accountability.

*I will not mention the D word unless I'm prepared to file (which I will never be)

*I will read my books

*I will take the EN quiz for my husband <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, since he won't do it

*I will do my best to implement a good plan A

*I will show him I love him.

Here is why I really think he doesnt' want me to move out or get divorced (I'm writing these down for my own peace of mind, to SEE them...)
* He hasn't done it yet
*He wants dbaby to have 2 parents who love her
*He talks about Christmas and what we'll get the kids
*He says prayers with me morning and night- and kisses me and says I love you after
*He says I love you when we hang up the phone
*He says I love you when he or I go to work
*He bought a house with a 2 year pre-payment penalty, lol
*He bought the house, period! (after my EA)
*We still have SF
*He still buys me things for my lunch at work he knows I'll like

SO his actions speak louder than his words, though they do hurt.....so I need to learn that it goes both ways....

Today is our 6 year anniversary. I know he will not do anything for me, but I got him a card and present.

How can a really repentant WS ever convey the extent of their sadness for the hurt they caused the BS???

time

and
constancy

Okay MrsRob, first of all...it is NOT fair to compare your BH with anyone else. That kind of thinking is an element of what got the both of you in this position in the first place.

Second, there is no way you can possibly know how you would react to a situation until or unless you are actually presented with it.

Third, you are mad at HIM because he might think you aren't worth the effort of Recovery???

Did you not take actions to display to him that he, nor your marriage, wasn't even worth your fidelity?

I suspect that your negative feelings regarding your worth existed pre-A.
Did you really think that having an A was going to increase your feelings of worth?

It obviously did not. In fact, you have now compacted the issues with your poor choices.

You can make better ones and you have begun your journey on the road to doing so.

It is going to take re-aiming your focus OFF OF HIM and back ONTO YOU.

You can only do YOUR part. The choice to do his is his alone.

Plan A is a plan for ending an affair, which isn't to say that you can't just learn your H's EN's and how to meet them.

THE FIRST STEP IS TO STOP ALL WITHDRAWALS

It will expend too much energy to make a bunch of deposits, only to withdraw them at a rapid rate, so it's important to focus on the LB's first.



His sticking point? Is this not valid to you? You did this. It caused even further damage to your M and your H.

Have you considered "just compensation"?
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?



I said this, too...over and over and over.

He's still here trying and so am I.

And it's been almost two years.

As Pep said to you in a previous post,



You chose to break NC, so expect it to take longer.

You're on the right track, MrsRob. You can do this, but it's not going to be easy and it will require much more than waiting for him to get over it.

Mrs.Rob,

You are on the right track. Actions do speak louder than words right now - but you also do need to watch your words. You said you are prone to lovebusters, so hold back on those! Before you respond with any harsh words, think about it first. Yes, that sarcastic reaction might feel REALLLY gooooood, but it won't go far in the recovery zone. (I am the Queen of Sarcasm, so I know this by personal experience - do as I say, not as I do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

I know that you want to help him through this - and you do have listed the items that show that he does love you and does want to stay. The list about the house and Christmas, that tells you he is thinking about the future WITH YOU. That is a very good sign. Whenever he is having a down moment, remember your list, keep it in your heart so you can keep going when things get hard for you.

He will be riding a roller coaster and won't be able to explain why. Like asking you to move out one moment, and then asking you to go with him the next. It's so strange. I did much the same thing. I wanted so much at times just to punch my FWH as hard as I could right in the stomach, but I didn't, because at the very same time I needed him to hold me because I was hurting. Two completely opposing emotions occurring at exactly the same moment. I thought I was losing my mind. Your H is doing the same thing, and struggling to be strong enough, on his own, to fix himself. Sometimes, it would help for you to just hug him - no reason, just hug him. In the evenings, sit by him on the sofa and hold hands. Don't talk, just "be". No pressure, just togetherness. I needed to be near him, to feel his touch, but not too close. No pressure for SF, but somehow when he was near me, then I was okay and did want SF. Just needed him near for the safeness and to calm myself that he wasn't going to leave me.

It is very difficult to be a BS. I'm sure being a WS isn't any easier, just different. Strange, we humans place so much of our self-esteem in the approval of others, especially our spouses. Men in particular do this - so you have to find ways to make him feel admired by you. Let him know something he has done that has made you proud of him. It will help him recover part of that self-esteem that he has lost. Read up on the ENs, and try to meet something he needs at least three times a day to start. You cannot repair his self-esteem, but you can do things that will help repair how he views what he thinks your impression is of him, and that can go a long way for helping him in recovery. But those Love Bank deposits MUST BE THE REAL DEAL. Counterfeit deposits do not count, they actually do more harm than good. Be sure that what you are doing isn't phony.

Now for your self-esteem! The other poster is right on. You don't go trolling for other people when your own self-esteem is in place and your relationship is healthy with your H. So, you have some work to do in that department. Personally, I think a great deal of self-esteem can be built by helping people who truly need help. For example, if you can volunteer at a school, nursing home, or somewhere like that for an hour or two a week, you might find that you can make a difference in someone's life. That is a true booster for self-esteem, and is free. One suggestion. Also, you might find that focusing on cleaning your house, exercising, meeting the needs of your family and your husband, organizing yourself, and creating a plan for building your relationships and a new "lifestyle" will result in a rise in your self-esteem as well. Strange, but the simple process of cleaning up your act and resolving to make yourself over into the person you know you can be, and then taking the steps daily to do exactly that - well, that in itself raises your self-esteem quite rapidly. Especially when you see the reactions in your family and friends, and when you see your life improving before your eyes.

And stay with NO CONTACT. Do not take yourself and your BS back to square one. Every time you do that, you are starting over again. There is no point in turning back now - you have made a lot of progress since your first post!

SB

Okay, here is what I got yesterday...."it will take 5-6 years to figure out whether I want to divorce you." Then later- "Maybe I'll just sell the house and get out." (he just bought the house a month ago). "I can't forgive you." "I can forgive but not forget and I think we'll get divorced." "I'm not planning on getting divorced."

AAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!

I know I did this. I know I deserve this. I know he's the hurt party and I need to do everything I can to make it better. BUt he wants nothing to do with it! I'm tired of being called a w****. After the second d-day I have repented with my ecclesiastical leader, and tried to improve myself spiritually....lifting the fog totally....

And I am scared to read the lovebusters book. Stupid, I know....but what if I read it and try it and I either can't do it or it doesn't work? I'm just voicing my thoughts here, I will do it! And I will truly implement it...

Here is my biggest fear. What if he really doesnt' love me anymore? What if- even if we stay married- he never loves me again? Does that mean he didn't love me enough in the beginning?

He says he doesnt' think he loves me.....

you love your husband.
you can do it.
it will work.

dont be afraid to (gently) ask for help from your husband, though. in the form of asking him to try to not LB either, when he does.

you're going to have to be as patient as the average BS has to be. you're going to be the one who has to deal with the moodswings, uncertainty, etc, etc. from your spouse.

a suggestion, only for when it gets really bad:

gently remind your husband, that while you are really sorry about what you let happen to your marriage... you never(?) had physical relations with the OM. This should be some consolation to him.m it wont make it all better, but it might take the edge off.

FYI: he is LB-ing you right now. he is threatening you with divorce and trying to hurt you back.
I bring this up not so that you can fight him over it every time. but so that you know what he is doing isnt right. IF he is agreeing to live by the MB principles, you might gently point out once in a while that this is not living by the principles.