Techie- I never did have physical relations with him- never even met him, but BH says I might as well have. I did admit to the phone s*x, since he asked and I was not about to lie to him. So that makes no difference to him at all.

He will not do any of the Marriage Builders things, nor will he go to counseling.

he just keeps the hurt inside and gets angrier and angrier and feels more and more hopeless.

MrsRob,

Techie has some very good point here. I believe your H does love you he's stalled at the pain and anger phase, he may need a nudge to get through it.

Contact the Harley's for counseling, it works, I know I've spent a bundle with Jennifer, it is worth it.

Remember, I've gone 10 months now from D-Day 1 and 5 months from D-Day 2. Still no ILY, she still shows disrespect, very little common courtesy, very little empathy.

Just this weekend we were in the grovery store, I was getting some things off the shelf putting them into the cart, I asked her a question, no response, I look around and she is nowhere to be seen. She had walked off to get some crackers, we were in the cleaning isle. I panicked a little, walked around, found her and was down the rest of the day. Why? She didn't think about how I would feel, she wanted to buy some crackers and just walked off, not a good thing to do to a BS. So I guess the question here is: Are you doing all you can to make him feel safe?

You are doing a good thing here, it would he great if he would come here and read and post.

It would really make me feel good if my WW would put in the effort that you are! I mean that sincerely!

Hang in there, you are doing fine.

ooo, owch. phone sex.

yeah, some men (myself included) would see that as almost equivalent.

there will be a time, when he will be able to acknowledge, that never having to consider having to deal with the physical spectre of another man, while in your bedroom, is a huge blessing.
that time is not now
as eagle said.. go get some MB counselling for yourself, even if he wont go. you need it, to know that you are doing the right thing.

you may have to be a short-term martyr for your marriage.
WHen/if he talks about how much you have hurt him..
[NOT when he is threatening you with divorce]
acknowlege acknowlege acknowlege.
What he says is going to hurt you, because you love him, and you know you did this. open yourself to the hurt. let him "hurt you" in that manner. If you feel hurt when he says these things to you, dont be afraid to show it. he wants to know that you are remorseful, even if he doesnt seem to be asking you for that. dont act. just be true to how you are feeling at that moment.

I would suggest: dont respond when he is threatening, but acknowlege when he is actually sharing feelings with you.
Then it both is theraputic, plus shows him the value of sharing without deliberately hurting you further.



IF, and only if, he is still having SF with you, consider being more open to him than you ever have before.
[yes, men are still suckers for that stuff, even if we wont admit it, and even when we are incredibly hurt]. if there is anything that he wanted before, that you wouldnt normally give him.. indicate you would like to please him that way if he wants. But dont try to give him [xyz] when he isnt actually interested.

One night, when he is in a non-angry/non-hurtful state, you might offer him yourself as a gift to him. Tell him that your body is completely his now, and to show him, that night, he may do whatever he wants with you.
[i'm not suggesting you allow anything "extreme". Just a physical, tangible demonstration of your total "submission" (in the biblical sense) to him]
Sometimes, the offer of that sort of thing (and some amount of good-faith followthrough) means more than any specific act that may be done.

one last thing, that I hate to say, but must be said.

right now, your husband is extremely vulnerable to a revenge affair. the best thing you can do, is unconditionally stick to your side of "no LBs".

however, if you successfully do this.. and he is still in this state after a few months... he may have started one.
[or he may just not be able to "let go", without help...]

but anyways... remember that your patience in this time, is the crucial thing. hang in there. it can work out for you .

Mrs. Rob,


There is a difference between his sharing his feelings and verbally attacking you. Is he verbally attacking you? You do not deserve that. You can set your own boundaries where this is concerned.



I have said many similar things to my FWH. The truth is...he doesn't know how he will feel later. He's riding on a sea of emotions. You can be his anchor by remaining steadfastly committed and not reacting to his words.


I understand your fears.

Change your motivation for reading it from using it as a tool to get him to do and feel how you would like him to...to making yourself a better person by learning tools and skills that will enable you to treat the people you love better. You CAN do it. You simply have to educate yourself with the material and then makek a choice to apply it.

Here is my biggest fear. What if he really doesnt' love me anymore? What if- even if we stay married- he never loves me again? Does that mean he didn't love me enough in the beginning?

He says he doesnt' think he loves me.....

The feeling of romantic love can come and go. This is where meeting his EN's comes into play. Dr. Harley says that if you consistently meet his top 5 EN's, the feeling of romantic love will return.

Do you believe that?

I do.

I've seen it work. I've felt it work in my own marriage.

Eagle15- thanks for the encouragement, that means a lot. I am constantly amazed at the capacity to love that is shown on this board.

Techie- believe me, I have been very open to his SF needs in the past 4 months. Pretty much anything he wants he gets, and I'm fine with it- nothing goes on that I would resent later. Just last night he told me that I cannot understand what he is going through unless I went through it myself. He has also said that him having an affair would be one of the ways that he could "get over" it. But then he says that he'd never do it because, "I'm not a w***e like you." What can I say to him when he says I cannot understand? What I say is that I know I hurt him more than anyone should ever be hurt and I am so sorry. He just glares at me and says that I've killed our marriage and that if it weren't for Dbaby he'd be long gone. In fact, yesterday he told me that if I would let him have custody he'd divorce me in a heartbeat. And if we do divorce, since he won't get custody, he'd just move and never see dbaby again.

Frozen, yes, lots of verbal attacking. I just take it. His feeling is that I have done this, I don't get to say when he "gets over" it and how he should act. You're right about the motivation for the lovebusters book. I should be willing to improve myself no matter what the outcome will be...

I am afraid that once he gets over it...if he does...that I'll be so empty that it won't matter anyways.....

Please ask him to post here. We can help.

He never would. And he'd be furious that I am here as well, telling everyone how he'd been cuckolded. I've dropped hints about the EN quiz, etc, and got an absolutely not.

maybe if I implemented MB principles and they started working he'd do it...

But not now. I don't even think he knows if he wants to save this marriage anyway. If you were to ask him, I'd bet a million dollars he'd say no.

Can this work if he really doesnt' want it, even if I do??

Yes it can because your Plan A will bring him around. He can't stay mad forever, although it may seem that way.

Sorry for the bad memory, but will he do counseling? Maybe over the phone with the Harley's? WW and I talk to Jennifer, we like her and she helps a lot, Steve is from opinions here is very good as well, a little more direct. I would personally recommend either one.

Has your H ever seen the statistics on As? It's pretty frightening, also would let him see he is not alone. Initially that was one of my biggest problems, it is very embarrassing and from a guys POV he is probably afraid he will be ribbed and chastised about it. Not something anyone wants, especially guys.

You can do this, you are doing this, and you are doign great. Keep up the hard work, I know it's tough, but you are doing it. You are doing great a lot of FWWs would have given up. Be proud of the hard work you are doing to save your M.

Mrs R,

IMO something very obvious is being overlooked here.

Your BH has been through this twice with you, at the least!

Notice any differences between the ways he reacted the two times?

Now, I speak from experience, having had three D-Days with my FWW - two from the same LTA: you can multiply the resentment, despair, anger and self loathing felt by the BH by a factor of ten for each D-Day. You can expect the inability of the BH to control his emotions associated with all the above to exponentially degrade with each D-Day.

Adultery normally said to take two years to recover from takes much longer the second time around. (It’s virtually impossible to recover from three times around. So you better really, really know what you are doing if you break NC again.)

It sounds to me your BH is acting quite normal, considering.

He is not only very unhappy, he is wondering why he is so stupid he had to suffer through this twice, and make no mistake he is wondering how many more times he will suffer through it if he stays married to you.

Resentment, as stated by Dr H here ( http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html ) builds with each adultery.

“If, on the other hand, either husband were to have another affair, the association would be much harder to extinguish. In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.”

That it’s the same OM makes no difference whatsoever. Broken NC is still adultery.


With prayers,

PS: Is there any way you could get your BH to come here? Or better yet, you and he call the MB counseling center together?

PPS: IMO, you are still foggy with this statement (at the very least it is magnificently insensitive to imply such a thing to your BH so early after D-Day 2): "I did something horribly wrong, but I also deserve to be happy and I won't ever be happy in this marriage." He certainly will not understand any such attitude from you while he is this deep in pain. Life as he knew it has ended, you know. Twice!

OK, I just saw this after posting the above: “He never would. And he'd be furious that I am here as well, telling everyone how he'd been cuckolded. I've dropped hints about the EN quiz, etc, and got an absolutely not.”

Don’t be so sure. If he saw any way other than a D to reduce his pain he would grab onto it like the last remaining life preserver on a ship sinking in a hurricane.

He needs professional help dealing with his resentment.

And what is wrong with him telling anyone who will listen he has been cuckolded? He was, was he not? He may as well tell someone who truly understands, right?

Yes, I see your point. He is thinking that he is stupid to stay with me when I did this to him two times. He says that I am not worth it, and he told me that that would be his attitude if I were to ever have an affair. And that is true, he did. So why isnt' he gone? Dont' get me wrong, I am so glad he's not, but if he's staying why not stay and see that I am serious, not stay and be miserable? If I plan A him, will that make him feel not so terrible for staying with me after what I did to him? Will that help him see that I am really wanting a GOOD marriage with him?

And no matter what I did, telling me to go call the OM whenever he's mad at me is not helping things. I can't tell you the number of times I think, "well, why not? This is going nowhere!" But I havent' and I won't- even if we split up I will not contact him.....

He doesnt' believe my apologies, he doesn't believe I love him- "how could you do this if you loved me??" Good question, but it wasn't about him. It was about my selfishness and my being in a fog. And he says he doesnt' love me, but he'll say it, like I said before.....

I want to be able to survive this.....

“So why isn’t' he gone?”

Because he loves you. Even over and above the children.

Yes. I believe so. He loves you, but he does not like you very much right now.

If he didn’t he would not care nearly as much as he obviously does.

He would not be so conflicted. He would not be suffering nearly as much. He would not be angry, as a matter of fact.

Right now he sees no light in the tunnel. He won’t for months yet. And then he will, and then he won’t again, and then he will.

Be his light. Just be his light.


And tell him I said he needs to talk to the MB counseling center. This situation will hound his dreams for the rest of his life if he does not get some professional help with his resentment.

With prayers,

PS: Was he married before and if so did it end via adultery? Your previous marriage? There are usually historical influences at work here.

Mrs Rob..

You asked why he is not gone despite having the very reaction he predicted he would have..the answer in short is..investment.

He is INVESTED in this marriage..especially now that there is a child involved..it will cost him some skin to walk away.

Thus the heavy burden and resentment.

It is entirely POSSIBLE that he is telling the truth..that were the child not tipping the scales in favor of salvage..he would prefer to walk away..but he can't without taking an unacceptable loss.

He would like to retaliate..have his own affair..but he can't without..again..taking an unaccpetable loss via behaving as "a ******"..something he isn't willing to do.

Right now..judging by your timelines and multiple NC breaches..I would speculate that a great deal of his anger and resentment stem from having none..zero..good options..from being in a situation where the best outcome is that he gets a subpar marriage to a woman he doesn't trust OR respect so he won't lose day to day life with his child as a result.

Right now this is ALL about him.

Right now you are getting a very good look at your OWN behavior as a WS..because make no mistake..he's about as close to a WS as a person can get without making that leap..and some do sadly make it.

Do you see how ugly you are in his eyes?

Do you see how worthless he judges your efforts?

This is what you have given being returned..it isn't right and it isn't kind [it might not even be sane] but it is accurate.

So, if I were you I would use that information to my advantage.

Find out his ENs and masturbate them. Try not to be too icked out by that description..but it IS what you will be doing..creating a positive reaction/deposit wherever you can.

I would strongly advocate getting strategic help from SH especially with regard to SF..it may be possible that being willing to have SF with him while he is in this frame of mind is damaging his opinion of you rather than making a deposit in your favor. I'm not an expert..I wouldn't say that is definitely the case it's just a gut feeling I am having based on your posts.. I really think you need a plan here based on who your H is and what makes HIM tick.

You will also have to find a way to stem the verbal assaults..because although his unfortunate situation CAN be laid at your feet..no one respects a person who allows themselves to be treated badly for any reason. It does not work in your favor..it does not help restore the marriage. It does allow him to cement that image of you by declaring it so unchallenged. SH would be a great help to you in coming up with a strategy for this as well.

"It is entirely POSSIBLE that he is telling the truth..that were the child not tipping the scales in favor of salvage..he would prefer to walk away..but he can't without taking an unacceptable loss.'

This is very common, BTW. It's a major factor in what kept me invested during the darkest months.

Mrs R,

How is your own withdrawal going? Is it possible BH senses at some level you wish you still had OM on the side?

Mrs. R,

A couple things hit me while reading the recent posts.

Your question about his love or lack thereof.

Love waxes and wanes in a marriage. Your love for him did, case in point. He is struggling with his feelings for you. Right now, I love my FWH. There are actually times when I could honestly say to you that I DON'T WANT to love him. He has betrayed me, and I am struggling with the trust, the betrayal, the "why", the pain, the work, the crying, the fears, the thoughts, the rollercoaster. It would be SO MUCH EASIER IF I DIDN'T LOVE HIM. But I do. I suspect that at this point, your H is dealing with the same thing, and can't even begin to put words to it.

His one-second-I'm-divorcing-you and the next-second-I'm-not moodiness is normal. It's probably not even sequential moodiness - I had the same feelings, polar opposite feelings, occurring at the exact same time. How can that be? Well, I was either insane, or I was a betrayed spouse.

BS, that's what I am......10 months from d-day, and last night I had a slight little bit of crying for a really strange trigger. Your H is on a different timeline - and without some support, you can expect his to probably be slower than others (although, you never know).

The best thing my FWH has done to help me through is not defend himself with stupid excuses when I told him he broke our marriage. He has consistently said things like, "This is my fault, and I will help you and us get through this." "I will never do anything to hurt you like this again." "You can look at anything on the computer or phones that you need to see. My life is an open book. Let me help you find anything you need." "I am sorry I did this." "What can I do to help you heal?"

He consistently took 100% of the blame, and did not accept any attempt on my part to take any blame. He did not justify his actions, or try to make me out to be the bad guy.

Please, re-read some of your earlier posts, because there are some places where you do that. If you are saying those things to him, you aren't helping your cause with your H. If your plan is to save your M, don't include those types of statements in your discussions right now. If you do have legitimate concerns, save them for a time when he is able to focus on rebuilding and improving the M. Right now, you need to throw him a life ring. He's drowning in sorrow and pain.

Hang in there. You're getting some great support and advice. This is tough work. I wish that my FWH had worked in the beginning like you are - he was not the worker at first, I had to do the labor. Now, that's changed, and I'm liking it.

SB

Mrs R,
I know exactly what you are going through, I have been in the exact same situation.
I also had an A and (thankfully) my H and I have three little girls which made it impossible to remove ourselves from each others life completely.
What I have to offer is this, it CAN happen. Things can turn around and once their anger dies down and they start thinking clearly again (No disrespect to any BS’s here, I promise, I just can’t think of another way to put it!) that’s when he will be able to make the decision as to what he wants.
My H was totally against any sort of IC / MC, and he knows that I read this site but I certainly haven’t told him that I post.
He used to tell me how much he loved me, but I never believed him. At one point I was even angry that he hadn’t even confronted OM about any of it. How stupid is that!
After Dday our livse turned upside down (as I know everyone’s does) and it took him a lot of months to sort out what he really wanted. First he wanted to fix things then he felt stupid for being with me. He said that it felt like I had won and had everything my own way, that I got to go and have an A and then come back to my family when it suited me.
Things would go from great one minute, plenty of sf and nice words and pleasant time together and then the next minute he would be so incredibly angry with me that I would react the only way I knew how, which was to be angry back at him and think about how my OM was never like this.
Ofcourse he would then pick up on this and every single thing that we argued about would always end up on the subject of OM with H screaming and shouting and me defending OM. It was stupid and all it did was hurt both of us more. But a few months has gone by now and my H has moved back into our family home.
We still have our drama’s and things aren’t super easy. But it’s definitely getting better and we are definitely having more good times than bad now. And although I am still suffering pretty badly with withdrawals from OM, I think about him differently now than how I did before. More of a past tense.
And even though only 6 months ago my H couldn’t look me in the eye half the time, he can now tell me that he loves me and I know he means it completely.

Keep Smiling, you'll get there,

Starting again1 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ME (FWW) 26
BH 29
D DAY (my H) 10/10/05
D DAY (OM wife) 12/09/05
NC 12/19/05
H moved back in 07/22/06
3X DD 5,6 and 7

Aphelion- I don't know how my withdrawl is going. I try to forget about OM, but BH brings him up- "why don't you go call OM??" and if I bring up a subject he doesn't want to talk about with me, usually about the R, he says, "OM, Mrs Rob, OM." It's funny you should ask, as today has been especially hard and I dont' know why. But I will not do it, I am here on MB instead, a good substitution, I think! Also, his previous marriage ended with suspicion of an A on her side, never confirmed, they had been having problems for a couple of years where he moved out and then moved back in....as for my first marriage, no A's from either of us. But his first wife's actions definitely color his reaction to me now, no question about it.

Noodle- you are right about his EN's and about me making it all about him. I stood up for myself yesterday and it did go well- I was loving and kind, but told him in no uncertain terms that while I was to blame for our situation, his name calling was unacceptable. He backed off. And he is invested in our DD. He loves her with all his heart.

Schoolbus, I know it needs to be about him now, but it just seems like that's how it always has had to be anyway, which is part of the reason I'm where I am. Please don't condemn that statement, I know I need to work it out, it's just I can express it here when I can't to him. It's like every time I've told him about an EN I had (without knowing it was an EN), he's on purpose ignored it. Even leaving me alone in the ICU with pulmonary embolisms I was being treated for. But I know that now, especially knowing about MB, I can plan A and hopefully BH will implement things that I do for him. And I am trying not to say things to him that would indicate blame, but sometimes he asks me why and I really can't tell him without going back to what I was feeling like at the time- which was, "this OM is caring about me and you don't." So I tell him I dont' know why, because I do not EVER want it to seem like I"m blaming him for my sin. But I don't know is not a good explanation, either.....so now I just say, I know what was going on in my head to allow me to be in a place to do that horrible thing and I know what I need to do to never do it again. I don't know that he likes that much better than I dont know, but at least it's a little more, and true...

Starting again- it's so hard to be a FWW, something I have condemned in others.....how could I do this? I am so glad for Dbaby, and that having her, besides just being wonderful in and of itself, may make BH stay and make a good marriage out of a pretty crummy one, even before the EA...

Last night we talked, and he said he was staying and trying, that is what he was doing. But his version of trying is- and he said this, this isn't me reading his mind- he will do nothing, and I'll have to put up with him being okay one minute and a complete a-hole the next. I broke it so I'd better fix it. "it was damaged before, Mrs Rob, but you broke it." I agree with the putting up with the mood swings, but it's hard to hear that he isnt' willing to do anything. But maybe if I am making changes he will too.

We saw our bishop yesterday (like a pastor of our church), and got some church assignments. I asked BH if he was okay with me saying that I was worthy to do them (the bishop asks that) and he said yes. I have gone through a repentance process through bishop (in an old congregation, we just moved)....he says that my relationship with God is between me and God, and if I think I'm worthy then he's okay with it.....

And he called me at work to talk about something about our new house and at the end of the conversation he said I love you first...

I grab on to the little things.....

Keep up the good work MrsRob, you are doing a lot better than I. I'm seeing some pretty good signs here. He will pick up on your plan A and you will soon see some benefits.

Hang in there!

I am so so so angry right now. Last night we were going to have SF, and BH picked a HUGE fight. Now I have ALWAYS been overweight since we've been married. ALWAYS. He married me fat. And now he says that he won't have SF with me until I lose weight! I put it to him that he was just saying that to hurt, that SF was fine but he wanted to batter me the way he feels battered. He had no reply. Needless to say, I went to bed crying. Then he groped me all night...then this morning, as I left for work, he sarcastically said, "Thanks for the great evening."

I feel like quitting. How could I even want to still be married to such an a$$?? This is not the first time he's said hurtful things about my appearance, even before EA....What kind of idiot am I to even want to stay with such a jerk?

And I cant' seem to stop asking him if he wants a D. I'm pretty sure it's a HUGE LB, but I am so so so insecure- my life is in limbo (I know I put it there- but honestly I've always felt like it's there- that if I dont' do what BH says he'll just leave).

So the issue with SF is going to be- I avoid him like the plague, he is mad because we're not having SF, even though I was all for it and it was HIS choice, I feel like s***, and he'll tell me that it's too bad, this is the ****** I made, and he really wants SF even though he said he didn't and I just have to live with it.

He's always been emotionally distant and controlling, and now I"m not sure I want to be in this relationship at all. Maybe the EA was just a wake up call, becuase it's not like I want to go back to that relationship if we D.

Maybe I just want out.