Excuse me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Severely flirting with a person of the OPPOSITE SEX and sharing intimate details about yourself, your spouse and marriage with a person of the OPPOSITE SEX (except if the person is a blood related family member or professional therapist) outside the marriage is EMOTIONALY BETRAYAL towards the spouse whether there is feelings/emotional attachment involved or not…and whether or not the EMOTIONAL BETRAYAL is called an EA or “baloney sandwich” for that matter… It is what it is and it is WRONG any BETRAYFUL towards the spouse…it was EMOTIONAL CHEATING..whether it was an EA or not (which I believe WAS an EA). If what Stanely was doing wasn’t an EA then my previous involvement with OM (3 years ago) wasn’t an EA either only until recently, especially since we never shared intimate and personal details about our spouses and marriages and never admitted/professed past feelings of love towards each other untill recently … <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If this is true, then I also have a personality that is not prone to A’s. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Read THIS.

Hmmm…I also don’t fall in love easily. In fact, it took me almost 3 YEARS before I’d reached the stage where I’d unwittingly developed inappropriate feelings for OM and had “fallen in love” with him...

Sorry to say Stanley, but it sounds if you’re in denial and very foggy…

Suzet:


What I have done is wrong. Sharing intimate details is wrong as well as flirting.

However, you assume too much based on your own experience. You had romantic feelings and you eloquently stated this in your writings. I have no romantic feelings and therefore no withdrawal. I am not writing this to justify anything, but there is a HUGE difference. That does not mean I am any better or worse, but this difference is significant.

--------------------
Stanley

Stanley,

This is how you rebuild your self-esteem...knowing what and why you did what you did...and not doing it...increases you awareness and understanding so you can better honor your marriage.

There are false ego strokes and real ones...give yourself real ones for getting what you didn't see before; I believe that teaches self how to tell the difference.

LA

The way to elevate the self-esteem is to do the right thing. The outer shell must match the inner self. Leading the double life is no way to elevate the self-esteem-------I agree.

I am convinced low self-esteem is major player in infidelity. Folks with low self-esteem tend to feel unworthy and hence admiration tends to be the preferred EN. In my old life admiration was not a requisite. If I were to take the EN questionnaire admiration would have been last on my list. Post affair things are different.

It is not fun having low self-esteem. This is something completely foreign to me, but now I certainly have a great deal of empathy for those that have suffered from low self-esteem for a lifetime. Interestingly accomplishing a lot is not always the cure. A house painter can have greater self-esteem than a Harvard lawyer.

For some people the need for external validation is so strong that they fall in love with inappropriate mates as long as they cover the need for admiration. In my case I don’t think I can fall in love because a person fills a specific EN. I never saw a relationship in terms of having my needs met until my wife had the affair. Up to that point the issue of been unstable because my needs were not met was completely foreign. I was a 100% happy.

Thanks for the advice.

Stanley wrote:

"She also believes that one should be happy 24/7 in this stage of recovery.

She is also having feelings of guilt or perhaps the sensation that she is judged. This is a problem, no doubt.

The only solution I see is a greater level of emotional connection."

Stanley and Myrta, I hope you both will forgive me if I am totally off the wall here. It's just an observation, and could be totally incorrect. However, what Stanley wrote above I think is very telling.

Stanley, there is a book that I read which I have been recommending over on the recovery forum. Maybe you've read it. It's called "How can I Forgive You?" by Abrams-Spring. There's a chapter directed at the offender giving advice on how the offender can help the injured person heal. Both H and I have read the chapter and have found it helpful. It provided for me some missing pieces about what I needed from H. He does a lot right, but this showed me what is left to be done.

Talking about the A and having the FWS give us details is one thing. Knowing they are able to sit with our pain and offer real compassion and empathy is another. When the FWS is so full of their own guilt and shame they can become defensive, which doesn't help the BS at all. I have always felt that you and Myrta have done a lot and want to recover. Yet, when it comes to dealing with your pain over this all the defensiveness or minimization seems to come out.

Again, don't mean to offend anyone. I could be totally off base here.

Stanley,

That's why I posted to you...because you had not dealt with building your self-esteem consciously before...you had it...you still built it yourself (not others)...but you didn't have that lack before...thought I'd share with you the way I did it.

I'm on the opposite side of the the experience...I've had low self-esteem all my life...up until DH's affair...and now I've got it! Hard-earned...worth every bit...and I agree, lack of self-esteem does greatly contribute to choosing to have an affair...

Another great thing to know in recovery...because not only are affairs choices (and no one can make you choose to have one again), but knowing you also control your own self-worth is terrific protection!

LA

CV:

I agrtee with your words. I will try to get the book,

Thanks

LovingAway:

Thanks for the support.

I agree, in the end self-respect is everything and now I can see I did wrong even when I thought I coiuld not cross the line.

CIAO!

Suzet---I really dont think Stanley is in the fog, but he admits his wrong doing in sharing intimate detalis via-email with this woman. Also he admits he was wrong in flirting so openly with his ex-co worker. He wrote the OW an email telling her, to stop all communication, but I did not see this email. I am going to have to believe what he is telling me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. It did hurt me to see all that exchange of emails between them , so I cannot imagine what he felt when he read all mine and OMs

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

Myrta

I know for a fact that my husband shared intimate details with this OW via e-mails, but thank my lucky stars that nothing else happened. I was lucky enough to find this before it develop any further. I think Stanley was getting into very dangerous waters by revealing so much about us to her. She also revealed many things about her life to my husband.

I can say that reading all these emails of my husband with another woman, has helped me alot to understand him as a BS. I have much,much more empathy for him than before, even though (thankfully) I am not wearing his "shoes".

The love that my husband has for me is out of this world, and these emails between him and that woman has made see this so much more, more clearly, with no doubts.

So, in summarizing what has happened in my marriage lately, even though is not right what he did, something really good is coming out of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. My husband is a good man, that almost got himself into hot "water" but he didn't!!

Well, no one is posting but I will put my last happenings. The woman that my husband e-mails with, wrote me an email, and assured me that she and my husband were not doing anything innapropriate. That they just shared thoughts about her EA and my affair. And that they just offered advise to each other like two professional counselors. She told me that I did not have to worry about their talking on emails, but if I did not want it to happen anymore, she will not email him any further.

I told her that sharing such intimate things was not right, that they could continue writing if they want it. Even though it was not right for him to share our intimate life, there were no emotions involved.

Myrta

Myrta, I recently shared my horror over recent events in my life (a renewed affair by my husband) with a close male friend. The next day, I received a call from a mutual female friend of ours, saying "I heard from Sam that you might need a girlfriend to talk to." In otherwords, even my friend, who is not an MB member, understood that it is best not to have opposite-sex confidants.

I understand there is plenty of blame to spread around in your M, but you shouldn't have to worry about another inappropriate relationship. Stanley should be able to respect this, if he loves you. You both have plenty of other things to deal with right now. Good luck.

I believe it was wrong of you to give your permission for them to continue writing to each other. We shouldn't have these sorts of exchanges with people of the opposite sex, period.
It is dangerous. There may not be any emotions exchanged at this point but that could change.

It was weird that Stan-ley felt a need to write HER while on your vacation.

Myrta, where is your head?

You sound foggy, now.

You are going to allow continued contact between your husband and a female?

Surely you are going to have all correspondance copied to you?

How long have you been here?

How many affairs started with email contact?

My husband's did.

Use your head and put a stop to it now.

I KNOW that a lot of affairs start via emails and there could be some risk. But I dont think there is any danger here, since everything is out in the open and I know about it. I chose to believe that my husband is telling me the truth and that there is nothing going on between the two. Like my husband says, he is a visual kind of guy, and he does not get any "kicks" from communicating in an email to another female. I think I have more to fear with the flirting that he has with his co-worker, than with his e-mail friend. The co-worker visits my husband's office from time to time and she and my husband flirt with each other <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, Thats the one that I would like to talk to or to her husband and put a stop to it. My husband confided this to his e-mail friend(that he likes the flirting with the ex-co worker.)

I know that many affairs start in the internet, but I dont think he will fall in love with another woman just like that. He needs visual contact and talking to the person in front of him.

Myrta

Myrta

read what you just posted- he told email OW that he like flirting with ow#2. hmmmm guess they don't REALLY share anything personal at all do they?

get this Myrta- email relationship- he emailed her on your vacation - emails turn into phone calls- phone calls turn into "meeting to talk" - meeting to talk turns into full-blown pa- gets real visual doesn't it.

Didn't Stanley exchange pics with her? I think that turns into a visual doesn't it.

oh well, it is your marriage- if you want to sit idly by and let him carry on, so be it.

thats ok, Myrta, we'll all be here for you when you come back whining and crying that he is involved in an affair.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I just want to be able to trust my husband. I dont want to be suspecting him of doing things via internet. I know the flirting MUST stop and I am planning a trip to his place of work to see if I can learn any more about this co worker. She worries me much more than his email friend.

Thank you for your advise. I will think this over....... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Myrta

Myrta are you prepared to let Stanley have an affair to level the playing field?

If not, then your proctoligist just called - he found your head.

Either way actually.

Myrta,



Why take a chance at all?

Whether or not the relationship ever progresses from it's current state...

This is NOT MARRIAGE BUILDING BEHAVIOR!

It's harmful to your marriage...period!

NO, I dont want to level the playing field. That would be a horrible thing to happen. I dont think I would be prepare to face that!!