I need a solution. I want to handle it correctly and I don't want this hanging over my head. I would really like to resolve the issue so we can enjoy our time together without anxiety and animosity. Is this possible?

You cannot control your BF like a child...catching him in the cookie jar or discerning what he did by the crumbs on his shirt.

He's an adult. You know this. You control whether you mother or partner. All up to you.

Your power.

So you explain your feelings...not explain, share. Know them first. State them. This is what is called being true to yourself. Sharing who you really are...living in truth, in reality. This is how we are intimate with other humans.

What will it accomplish? Are you asking me how to better manipulate your BF so you can feel safe right now?

When we are in emotional chaos, knowing what is real and what is not is more difficult than it sounds. You now know this friend is not a friend to your relationship. You've realized something important. It is a standard and boundary.

Never, ever, always, forever...these are children's words...signal us about the age of four...before we understand time, that we live only in the present...human limitation...a brilliant one. When you feel like saying these signal words, or using them, know that you are feeling childish, declaring an untruth before knowing it is an untruth...reach for your adult and hold that child...we often revert from pain, fear...extreme emotions. More knowledge...good to know.

You do not have verification now. You are not safe. You do not trust your WBF and he has not built trust in you. Speak of that..."I believe trust takes two people. One to earn and one to give. By choosing to have an A, you broke that trust. I believe it will be rebuilt...half from you being open and honest, which rebuilds it, and half from me choosing to trust you again. I cannot trust you right now...I don't see you being open and honest with me. I have no way to verify if you're lying or being truthful. If you'll help me with my triggers, I can heal and trust you again. I am working on it right now."

Now...where you two are trying to move...this job...will that be closer to his children or further away?

LA

Ok, we are in Ohio. Children are in Virginia. We are moving to PA. The children are moving to Hawaii. So, they are actually moving much farther away. He does not currently have a relationship with his other children and he is trying to work on rebuilding that relationship as well.

Thank you for your suggestions! I am going to go home (at my mom's) and somehow handle this in a calm collective manner (to the best of my ability) with the tools that I can remember at the time. I can tell already that he is trying to pretend that nothing has happened. You are a life saver. Without you I would be going nuts (much more so than I am inside).

I'm geographically challenged (and yeah, I'm blonde, too)...when are the kids moving to Hawaii? Seems like him wanting to build a relationship with them would be greatly impaired.

Did his xGF marry? Do the children have a stepfather? Does he want to adopt them?

I'm leaving now, too...so good luck...you'll be in my prayers...there are techniques for staying calm (revoke your permission to be otherwise...no AOs or DJs)...if you do a search some time for "hopper" you'll find what I used to inject respect into my marriage and my life.

LA

We went home last night and I wasn't speaking to BF. There was two reasons for that. One, he seemed as if he was going to follow the same pattern from before the A and pretend that nothing had happened (Avoidance) and I wanted him to know that I was still upset. Two, because I was still upset I knew that any exchange of words at that time would be ugly and abusive and I did not want either of us to be abusive so I chose not to say anything until we were both calm enough to discuss it properly. He hates when I give him the silent treatment, which is not really what I was doing. I was responding when he spoke to me, just not very favorably. He attempted to start a conversation (argument) by saying "Are you good and miserable now?". I said "Obviously, you are not ready to have a conversation, yet. When you are ready to stop being abusive and have a calm rational conversation. Let me know but I refuse to speak with you when you are being abusive." I don't remember what he replied with because it was another abusive remark and I blocked it out,something about me being holier than now and sorry I'm better than him or something. I didn't reply.

A few minutes later he said, "So, what is your issue?". Still slightly abusive, I think, but I knew it was the best he could do at the time. I asked him if he has had contact with OW. He said no. I asked him if he had deleted a call record. He said no. I asked him if he was committed to rebuilding our relationship. He said not all the time. Is this an acceptable answer? What I mean is, is that okay that he is not 100% committed to this process?

He stated that he has not had contact with OW since last Wed. The LC date that I am aware of. He said that he was honest with me when he contacted her previously although it was 3 days after. He told me that he when he does have an urge to contact her, he plays what a relationship with her would be like in his head and he knows that it would end badly and that is what makes him decide to not contact her. Is this a good technique? He also me that his friend (the one he was supposedly talking to) had arranged for his job at the last company (the demotion they offered him) to be held for him until Mon. incase he changed his mind. I said, "So, you lied to me, again." I know, not what I should have said. He said , " I didn't lie, I just ommitted that part." I said that ommitting information was still being deceitful. I then pulled out my list of top 5 ENs which has honesty and openness as #3. He acknowledged that.

He explained that the reason he called his friend is that he is afraid now, because the job interview hadn't went as expected and we have very little money. We went into the same old debate about him going back to work for that company. This is where he tries to negotiate working there and I explain that him doing so would be returning to the A as far as I'm concerned and I won't allow that to happen. He argues that she is at another location and what difference does it make where he works, there will still be 8 hrs everyday that he could contact OW if he wanted to. I explained that that is true. But, if we are 2 hrs away, it is alot less likely for them to meet up for a lunch time quickie. I also explained that both of them knowing exactly when and where eachother are at at any given time increases the odds of contact occurring. My point is, yes, contact can occur at any time. I feel OW is less likely to initiate contact if she does not know where he is or at what times he is in my presence or not. If she knows that he is at work for cartain periods of time. it is obvious that I am not with him and she'll be more inclined to contact him. Do you see where I am coming from?

He said that he will not go back and continued to express his concern about our financial situation. He also admitted to reading my journal. Those thoughts are not written for him to understand them or really even for him to see them. He went behind my back, read it, took everything out of context, and tried to use it against me. So, we went over my journal and I explained my feelings about what I wrote so he could get a true understanding of my feelings and why I wrote what I wrote. It was also, again, brought to my attention that he has no romantic feelings for me. The love he feels is the mother of his daughter kind of love. I somehow keep ending up in denial about this or convincing myself that that has somehow changed. Sometimes he tells me that he thinks part of him is still in love with me. How can he say that in one breath and say he has no romantic feelings of love for me the next.

I'm glad that he is here, but what is his motivation for being here? I feel I can't be confident that he is going to stick with me through all this is there is not much holding him here.

Also, I just recieved a voicemail on my cell phone from another woman that he worked with that he confided in about the A. She is located at the same office as the OW. She's requesting a call back from him and I am not thrilled about that.

Can someone please give me feedback on all of this. I truly appreciate everyone's input. Thank you!

LA,

His xGF is married to a man in the Navy. He is going to be stationed in Pearl Harbor for 4 years and they are planning to retire their. They leave in Jan. XGF has asked repeatedly for the kids' last name to be changed to their stepfather's. BF refuses but she is using it for one of the kids anyway. She would never even think about allowing her husband to adopt them because that would mean she would no longer receive Child Support. They are very well off. Much more so than we. The stepfather seems to be a very nice guy and the kids are very well taken care of. Spoiled, I would say. I'm not sure how BF is planning to rebuild relationship with his children. I think he wants to start with a letter to each of them expressing his remorse for his absence. I guess we'll see what happens.

Why does BF refuse?

Why is there CS support when she's married?

I'm clueless in this arena...and to let you know, it isn't from a sheltered life...my two oldest sons are by two different men...neither was I married to...my DH is my only one in this life...and I didn't get CS or anything...put my maiden name as my sons' last names...and my DH adopted them.

Cleaning up previous stuff, getting real with what is true, helps us in our present greatly. Brings our beliefs, the ones we are living by, up to the surface, to be examined...separating them from our human wishful thinking...

And if xGF wants to use her husband's last name for the children, then he must adopt them...their SSN and all else will come from their birth certificates only. Why wouldn't WBF trade? If xGFH will adopt, then CS stops, and WBF owns that his children are being have a daily father, who obviously loves them...when they're old enough...WBF can establish a good relationship...and yes, correspondence seems good...when he's not in the fog and is clear on his life...sound good?

How old are his children now?

How are you doing today? In your free IC...ask for what you need...ask for your counselor to give her/his very best because you really want to see life as it is, your part, your power...and change how your life is...change the patterns, the automatic reactions...

Ask and ye shall receive...I promise...asking, in itself, changes patterns. Changed mine.

You're in a vulnerable position...as humans, we are, every day...because your WBF is repeating his life long pattern...not your doing...you didn't cause him to do this...he has chosen and continues to choose...

Seeing what is real, past and present, will give you a different future.

Your choice.

LA

LA,

BF refuses because he wants his children to have his last name. They are his children. He feels like allowing them to take their stepfather's last name would be giving them up. He doesn't want to do that. He wants to be a part of their lives. Always has. XGF makes that very difficult and to protect his children from ugliness and abuse, he stepped back. She has never asked for her H to adopt them. She knows that would mean giving up her C.S. and she is greedy. She basically wants him to give them up and still pay C.S. Nothing in it for him and he doesn't want to give them up anyway. He feels resentful and feels that he "let them go" because of me. When we began dating, I was 18 yrs old. I didn't want to assume someone else's family. I wanted children and a family of my own. I expressed this to him very early on and wasn't really willing to jump in as a step-parent. I never asked him to end contact with his children and would certainly never expect anyone to do that for me. I don't know what kind of person would give up their children for a relationship anyway. I didn't ask him to do that and it wasn't until about a month ago that he expressed that I may have had anything to do with that. The way I feel about that is that was his choice, I didn't make that choice for him. It's true that the relationship probably wouldn't have continued after a few weeks if his children were constantly present. I just wasn't ready or willing to be involved with that. I'm still not. I want him to rebuild his relationship with them but if they suddenly started being a part of our lives on a constant basis after over 5 years without them, that would be uncomfortable for myself and my daughter. I'm not concerned because I know that isn't going to happen anyway. Him rebuilding a relationship is not going to mean that they are at our house on a weekly basis. I doubt it will ever be like that. Please don't judge me about this. I know it comes across as selfish and immature. I hope you can see at least a little why I feel that way.

Also, I've decided not to see my IC for right now. I don't feel like she was any help to me. She refuses to even acknowledge my biggest issue right now. Dependent Personality Disorder. She said I was making that up.
BF's IC called today and said the next time she can see him is in 2 weeks. What is with these people?

If you haven't already, please read the update from last night and please give me feedback on it. I find this all to be an incredible learning process and knowledge is power.

If u r not willing or ready to include his children into your life, then your should stop now. It is not fair to put him in the middle of having to either please your or abandon his children. He is their father regardless of whose name or $$ they carry. That alone goes deeper than your R with him.

If you really love the guy but can't have his children in your life then leave. No need to deal with the A. That's now a secondary issue.

L.

Why does he want them to have his last name? His truth?

Biological isn't much, in my world, HNT. Actions matter, commitment matters...di he marry and work at giving those two children a whole and loving home, an intact family...did he do his part, what he could, to the best of his ability?

Takes a lot of focus and no love life to be an away father...if he had spent as much time with them as he did with you at the beginning of your relationship, would he be distanced from them now? Where your thoughts are, so is your treasure.

I am not bashing him...his choices were his own...are...and they are real...loving your children enough to give them what YOU chose not to...an intact, whole, loving home...that's choosing to love...and not brand your children.

He could go to court and have them not be able to move with their mother and stepdad...he could fight for a relationship with them, which would drain a lot of him doing for you, his current family...because he made two families, HNT...he did. His choice.

Ugliness and abuse? If she abuses the children and blames him for it, why would he step back?

You are DJing this woman who was in your shoes, as you are today...you don't know that she is greedy...I bet you know her through your WBF...through your own projection, maybe...you have a lot in common. What if she is experiencing the consequences of HER choices...seeing her children struggle with the last name...explaining to friends, school and others why they have one different...how they pretend and go by another...feeling like debris of a mess they didn't create?

I know this first hand! I do...I'm not preaching from what I didn't experience in my life, my consequences for choices I made...

You didn't want to assume someone else's family...then why did you date him, HNT? He had a family already...he made that choice. There was nothing wrong in you saying, "You seem nice, but I'm not into that. I want a different life."

And yet, you didn't...you wanted one thing and tolerated another...you tricked yourself...to give you what you wanted, he would have to not see his kids every other weekend and summer vacations...because you didn't want to step-parent...and to give them what he owed his children, he would have to make you unhappy.

Your part is you chose this role, this life...and you brought another child into it...do you see all your own choices? You betrayed yourself...knowing you did not want to assume someone else's family (and I think that's a great thing to know and live by)...and you did, because you chose him, knowing he had a family.

"I just wasn't ready or willing to be involved with that. I'm still not."

Yes, you were...get a higher honesty with yourself...you knew and you chose...you were willing, not ready, and got involved with a man with a family. Period. You did that, HNT.

This is your conflict between reality and fantasy...he cannot have a relationship with his children if you do not support him in it, be his full partner and embrace them into your lives...that's reality. Fantasy is believing he can rebuild a relationship with them and not including their half-brother or his GF...which means, he doesn't bring honesty into the relationship, wholeness, all of him, does it?

He's been five years without them...and another man has been their father, their caretaker, provider, role model...doing all the work your BF didn't...daily. Hourly. He wants wholeness within his family...why not make this the part that says, "I acknowledge and own my choices. I have made a second family and I cannot be in both as a father role...I have to choose."

About you being uncomfortable...you chose this life for a reason...fantasy may have got you where you are at this moment, but only reality can save your future and the future of your child.

Walk in xGF's shoes for a moment...they are nearly your size...your WBF had an A...in six months, he decides to leave you...pay CS...and pursue another woman...marries her and they have a child together. You are left with CS, visitation that doesn't happen...and your child is bereft of a father. You have been abandoned and so has your child. You meet yet another person and marry...he does the daily load, the daily love, embraces you...and your child grows in five years to love and treasure this father...knowing every day the last names don't match, that they are a biological waste product of a life your WBF ditched...and you finally get to where reality and growth are a daily part of your life...you can fully let WBF go from your heart...he has no participation...and you hold your DH in your arms and he says, "I want so much for us to be a real family, not a fantasy one. I want to adopt our child, be his real parent on paper as well as in real life."

What do you do?

I'll read your update...sorry I missed it...both my sons' fathers claimed they were not theirs...I did it alone until I met DH...and when we did the adoption, they didn't have to sign off on a thing...because they never claimed them in the first place.

I do know you are not the person you were at 18...or 20 or yesterday. I am not judging. I am struggling for you to what is real and what isn't...to know yourself thoroughly, your choices, power and limits. To respect his...his choices based in fear or love...and to know where you are right now, this moment.

LA

Orchid,

I knew that was going to happen and I knew I was going to open a can of worms by sharing this topic.

It's not that I don't want his children to be a part of our lives. I want him to rebuild his relationship with his children and I hope that our daughterand I can build a relationship with them as well. What you are failing to understand is that with the exception of the first few weeks of our relationship, his children are nonexistent. They are not my children. I don't love them. I don't even know them. BF doesn't know them either at this point. They don't want anything to do with our daughter (their sister) and our daughter doesn't even know they exist. What I was saying is that for us (our daughter and I) to suddenly have two additions to our family that are foreign to us would be uncomfortable and awkward. That is to say if for example they just suddenly started spending every weekend at our house. I'm sure that would be awkward for them as well. I have never or would never stand in the way of BF and his children. What I hope to happen is that BF, myself and our daughter all can build a relationship and get to know them as well as them getting to know us. I feel that rebuilding a relationship slowly would be in the best interest for everyone, especially the children. His daughters are 9 and 10. The 9 yr. old doesn't even remember him. The 10 yr old's memories are very vague. They also have been through 6 years of their mother bad mouthing him and that is really all they know of him, what their mother tells them. I hope that someday we all can become very close and a happy family. I just think that throwing them into let's say forced visitation on a weekly basis or something could be detrimaental. I hope that clears things up.

I know this is hard but these other children deserve a parent and that is him. Of course they are foreign to your family. But they never should have been. So the act of assimilating them into your family will require the effort and cooperation of all. Your BF should take the lead.

This is a blended family situation and if you don't want to blend, then you may have to go elsewhere. Realize that any other R you enter with later, will put you and your children on the same side his children are with you. Remember that. It goes both ways.

You can't ignore what is already there.

JMHO,
L.

This is in reply to your previous post, the one about last night. I'm backwards today. Thank you for pointing it out.

HNT,

Do you really want to change your life, fully? You do it by learning about you...changing yourself.

Silent treatment IS ABUSE.

Period.

When you are upset and do not trust yourself to speak...practice ahead of time saying just that. "I do not trust myself to speak right now. I will talk to you in a half-hour."

This is being open and honest. One, it states your feelings...you are upset. Two, it says you own those feelings, he's not MAKING you have them and tells yourself you can deal with what is yours. And it gives a time element...because being on the receiving end of the silent treatment is horrific torture...not knowing what I did, when the punishment would end, and it feels like being beaten and helpless.

You DJ's him about avoidance...he may well choose to avoid...each moment is new, living in the present...to choose your actions based on his possible response is to live by choice in manipulation, lies and self-deceit. You betray yourself when you do this. You are not bad for doing it...you are choosing to do it.

Know that you do not trust your self or know you can be relied upon...be aware of who you are and what you are choosing.

You DJ him constantly...and it hurts your relationship, him and you.

"Do you feel good and miserable now?"

"I hear you saying I wanted to be miserable now, is that correct? Or are you asking how I feel now?"

Going for clarity is what you fight DJs with...make your goal to be clear on what is happening, what is being said, not what you are making up in your head. You've lived this way a really long time...hard to get clear on what is real and what is assumed.

Get clear on abusive behaviors...choices you make...you only control yourself...your response to his question was abusive.

"Obviously, you are not ready to have a conversation, yet."

That's a DJ.

"When you are ready to stop being abusive and have a calm rational conversation. Let me know but I refuse to speak with you when you are being abusive."

This was a boundary enforcement when you weren't clear on what he was saying. Please do not do enforcements when you aren't clear on whether he crossed them or not.

Had he answered the questions I asked (hypothetically), you would be clear and that statement may well have been appropriate. You didn't. You assumed. Remember that boundaries and standards have to be the same...what you do not allow yourself to do to others or yourself, that's your standard...and if you do it to others, you cannot enforce that boundary when they do it to you.

Yes, it sounds like in his statement he was DJing you. Why do it back?

You blocked out his truth--that he believes he's being accused and slammed for doing the exact same thing you are doing. Might have been...but you blocked out his truth and you HATE it when he blocks out yours, don't you?

Here's where your DJs are killing your relationship:

"So, what is your issue?". Still slightly abusive, I think, but I knew it was the best he could do at the time."

He was asking you, not abusively, what is your issue...period. Do not DJ him by assuming it was the best he could do...it was adequately respectful and your DJ tricks you into fantasy instead of reality...you couldn't hear it for the judgments flooding your thoughts.

If you didn't have an issue, you could say, "I don't have an issue, I have a lot of conflicting feelings right now. I feel lost. This is a new experience for me. I am facing you having an affair and not trusting anything you say. I feel like I have no way to get truth. That's really scary."

If you had an issue, you could address it. With "I feel" and "I believe" statements.

Why are you asking him for truth when he lies and does not aid you in knowing his truth?

You're the one asking him about contact...you are doing that and then punishing him for his response.

Is this acceptable? That he's not 100% committed to the relationship 100% of the time? Have you read up on withdrawal? Only 10 days of NC and you want him to be committed 100% of 100%? Know your reality...there may be contact...maybe not. He hasn't committed to the relationship yet...ask him for a no contact letter, which you read and approve and mail together. Look them up here on MB...

That's his way of committing to NOT continuing his affair to clear his head of fog and find out what he wants so he can commit to the marriage.

What he does in his head is his thing...not yours. My WH had to choose NOT to think about OW at all...each thought that came, he caught and sent away...thought of our son instead. Each time. Training his brain. Your WBF may do it differently.

You could ask him if his method is fighting a fantasy with a fantasy...if you can do so when you've proven your safe from DJ's and AOs...when you know you are not trying to cure your WBF of what is only his.

What you said to him, about why going back to work at the same company...all of what you said what your truth...your perspective...what you believe. That's valid. I'm asking you to state "If you work for that company, I fear the A will continue...there are many reasons why this isn't an unreasonable fear. You aren't protecting me now, giving me your highest truth...I can only see your choice of going back as another choice against our marriage instead of for it."

"How can he say that in one breath and say he has no romantic feelings of love for me the next."

His truth is messy and conflicting. Still his truth. You don't have to judge it...has nothing to do with you right now--his feelings are his. You've read how love comes back, how to maintain it, grow it...fall in love and stay in love...living in reality is the key.

Knowing you are separate is elemental to what you want.

You're choosing to believe you can hold him here through his feelings...you can't. Get used to that. He chooses to live from beliefs, principles or feelings. Chaos comes from living from feelings...they come and go; they are signals about beliefs, not something to live by.

His choice.

And yours? Are you living from feeings? Fear, frustration, anger, resentment...are they governing your choices, or are you feeling them, tracing them back to the beliefs they come from inside you and seeing if those beliefs are valid for what you know now?

Focusing on you, your choices, will decrease who done to and helpess you are feeling. I don't believe you want to go from crisis to crisis...fire to fire...I believe you want to live fully, in total reality...and shine. I believe that. What do you believe?

LA

LA,

Let me explain in a little more detail. BF decided around a month after dating XGF that he didn't want to continue the relationship. I believe he broke it off with her and shortly after came back and said she was pregnant. In his mind, the right thing to do was to try to have a relationship with her for the sake of the child. I do not believe this is the right thing to do but that is my opinion. I don't believe that it is in the best interest of the child for the parents to remain in a relationship that is unloving and hostile. If you do not want children, you should use protection. Obviously, they didn't.

Anyway, to him, that was the right thing to do. So, he stayed in a relationship in which he explains to me was not very happy. Nonetheless, yet another child was produced in the process. Again, protection should have been used. BTW, he later found out that XGF was sexually involved with another man around the same time that first daughter was conceived so he is not 100% certain that she is biologically his. He doesn't want a DNA test because he doesn't want to know the truth. She is his in his eyes. He never married her. From what he says he never wanted to. I realize that has never married me either. I do try to put myself in her shoes. I feel that I am in a similar situation to hers. He stayed in the relationship with XGF long enough for his children to be able to have a phone conversation with him.

Of course, I am an outsider and can only go by what he says and what I myself have witnessed. When our relationship began, although they were offically separated for 8 months, that meant to her that it was really over. I guess for her I am the OW. She began harassing BF and I on an almost constant basis. On the phone, in person, via email. We came home from work one day and there were 80 calls from her on the caller ID, one minute apart. That is all the caller ID held. She would leave messages verbally assaulting us both and saying that she was having sexual relations with BF. She would show up at his apt. unannounced and let herself in. When BF talked to his children on the phone she would stand by them and badmouth and verbally assault myself and BF to the children that were 3 & 4 at the time and make them cry. She would do the same when they were visiting BF. She would call his house and make them cry by saying horrible things to them about us that little girls shouldn't hear. She started making accusations about being a child molester because I was so young and even went as far as to accuse him of sexually molesting his daughters.

Aside from the children themselves, this was all a bit too much for me to take. I told BF at that time that I didn't want to be involved in that situation and he grew to understand that all of this would take place with anyone else that may have come along after me and that this woman was never going to allow him to have a peaceful relationship with anyone. She suggested moving back to Virginia and he agreed that would be a good idea. None of this was good for the children and it certainly wasn't going to be easy for him to have a relationship with anyone. He thought that maybe if she moved that things would improve. Unfortunately, they did not. At that point he felt that his children had been subjected to enough and decided to step back. He felt that would be in the children's best interest. I agree. Here, 6 years later, XGF has still not let up. She's still hostile and abusive. I understand her anger and resentment. But I also feel she could have made it easier and could have been a little more cooperative if she wanted him to be a part of their lives.

She has been married several times since and every man that has come into their lives has been referred to as "Daddy". BFs or Hs. Daddy Greg, Daddy Kevin, Daddy Steve...etc. I don't feel that that is healthy either. Her current H seems like a very nice guy and a very good father to them. BF is very appreciative of that. However, he still wants to be a part of their lives. I want him to. I want us all to. At no time have XGF or her H ever mentioned the issue of her H adopting the children. She has also made it very clear that she has no intention of that ever happening or relieving BF of his C.S. duties. In fact, although they are very well off, she attemps to get C.S. renegotiated on an almost yearly basis. She wants more money and is not willing to give that up. I believe that is the only reason she hasn't proposed adoption. If it is in the best interest of the children for XGFH to adopt them and the only thing stopping that is her unwillingness to relinquish C.S., doesn't that make her greedy? BF is happy to oblige his C.S. duties and I'm sure would give even more if he had it to give. He is sad about not having his children in his life and I am sad for him. If his children had not moved and things had not turned out like this, our relationship probably wouldn't have continued. I never gave him an ultimatum of his children or me. I would've never even considered that. If he gave himself that ultimatum, that was his choice and I fully support him reconnecting with them.

Orchid,



I agree with that. At what point did I say something contrary?



I also agree with that. That was not my doing.



I agree with that as well and plan to support him every step of the way.



Did I suggest that my current feelings were that I didn't want to blend? I just stated that I felt a sudden situation would not be beneficial to anyone, especially children. No one is even suggesting a sudden blended family. That is hypothetical. I doubt that would even be a possibilty right now anyway. However, even if I didn't want to blend, which is definitly not what I'm saying, are you suggesting that he give up his current family (our daughter and I) for his other children because they were here first? I'm sorry! I'm feeling attacked and I feel that I am not being understood.

I want BF, myself and my daughter to have a relationship with his other 2 daughters and vice versa. Period. End of Story.

Not the end, HNT...I am advocating the other way...the honest way that acknowledges this non-relationship, for the children's sake...written correspondence...not blending.

Acknowledging the reality of what wasn't done, what wasn't wanted...and living with that. It's okay. Know the reality and decide from there.

Assuming their mother is badmouthing, greedy and manipulative...when you don't know her, one on one...mother to mother...is hurting you and coloring your decisions.

Know you don't know...and that's okay. Know that what your WBF states is his perception, what he believes that came in through his own filter...not HER truth...his.

And the only way to change those girls' names is through adoption Period. And that would end CS.

No attack here...no judgment. You didn't want, don't want, those kids in your life like a suddenly blended family...know that not knowing them, loving them, has been half your choice and half your WBF's...you do have a part. You have your own power. It's okay what you chose...do not allow fantasy to further injure you or your daughter (sorry I called her a boy).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I have three sons...no girls. Can you see my filter? My own experience shades what I assume...my own fantasy. I'm not telling you what you're doing isn't human...or that I don't do it...I can find a lot of you in me, HNT. That's why I'm on your thread.

LA

LA,



So when he asked me if I wanted lasagna, instead of saying "I don't know" I should have said ""I do not trust myself to speak right now. I will talk to you in a half-hour."? That seems silly to me. He wasn't initiating a conversation about my "issues" and I hadn't organized my thoughts enough at that point to have one, so I chose not to speak of the situation at all. I wasn't completely not talking to him as I said I would respond. I just didn't feel comfortable having a conversation until I had my thoughts and feelings together and I didn't want to continue on as if nothing had happened in the mean time. i feel that I was being true to myself. How is that abusive?



I don't fully understand the concept of DJ. I'm hoping to learn but still have a problem deciphering that. He's the one that says he has a problem with avoidance. That is is choice.





I'm not sure I understand what exactly that means. Could you elaborate?



Isn't that a DJ. Assuming that he wants me to be miserable?



What should I have said? I felt his tone and words were still abusive. That he was still in attack mode.



Can you please elaborate on this as well? I was clear that his tone and words still felt abusive. Is it not right to set a boundary to not allow someone to speak to me abusively? I am certain that he was crossing my boundary for respect.



More elaboration please?



I am still very confused about this process and everything involved in it. In this statement I was just unsure if him being 100% committed to the process was a requirement in order for it to work. He doesn't want to do a NC letter because he is afraid that putting the A in writing could prevent him from seeking employment. For obvious reasons, that is very frowned upon. Unfortunately, I was not present for the LC phone call that he made to her stating that he no longer wanted contact. I feel that his fear about the NC letter is valid. Is there something else that can be done instead? Also, if he has in fact not had any contact with her, I don't really want to encourage that. I know it has only been 10 days but I do not want to start over. Also, I don't believe that a NC letter would do any good. I believe that she would still allow contact anyway. She had told him previously when he told her he didn't want contact that if he calls her, she will hang up on him. At least this is what he has told me. He has called her since and she has accepted the call with open arms.



I accept that. I was just asking an opinion if it was a good technique. I was asking for his benefit. I don't care how he does it as long as he doesn't contact her. I want to send him to the post I read about withdrawal. It has some other suggestions for that as well. Do you thik that is a good idea?



I did explain that in terms of my feelings. I also told him that ultimately it was his choice. I felt the need to make it clear that returning to that company I would not be willing to continue recovery. He stated that he feels that he is protecting his family financially. He makes it a point that it is my choice not to continue recovery if he chooses that and it is. Is there something I should say to that?



I am still very unclear on how any of this takes place. This is one of my most difficult issues with myself right now.



I'm sorry! Could you explain this more fully as well? I am having a hard time understanding much.

Thank you LA. I know that not being a part of their lives was/is wrong. I believe that we both want to fix that. A decision had to be made for the children's best interest. I heard the things their mother was saying to them and I saw what they were going through. I believe that stepping back at that time was the right decision. I believe we need to reconcile that relationship together, as a family. I just think that we need to slowly come into eachothers' lives in that process. Not sudden.

Oh, HNT...first to your last post...which you wrote as I was composing my monstrously long response to your previous one.

I am definitely saying, absolutely, that not being a part of his children's lives is not right or wrong NOW. It's done. It's a fact. Where you go from here determines what it is...first, get your top priority straight...your goal to live in truth, in reality...and then discuss best for children, even if it hurts like crazy...own each of your own parts before deciding what to do.

They may shut out your WBF...by moving, no reconciliation may be possible...no fixing this...choosing your actions based on your beliefs, our standards...is what matters. Let go the results.

Now, here's the rest of it...

HNT,

You are dedicated! A trooper! Know this about yourself.

You would turn down lasagna?

Ack.

When he asked you if you wanted lasagna...did you or didn't you want it? Just the food, right then?

I didn't know he asked you for food...I was quoting where he asked what your issue was...

Are you telling me I'm wrong? That you're right? I don't do right and wrong, HNT...it's your life. Your choice. I am not handing you a "How to react in every situation guide"...I am attempting to show you another way to see the world, relationships, yourself, so you can choose to ACT instead of REACT.

Teaching people to fish instead of giving them fish...you know, that darn thing.

The abusive part of the silence...as you said, withholding because you couldn't respond favorably, is that you know all your reasons for your silence, your withholding, and the other person knows nothing.

They are shut out.

Read up on Disrespectful Judgments...you are not bad or wrong for them...they are just corrupting your life in all ways, and hurting others. I grew up with DJs, lived them, embraced them...as I said...this isn't about you being bad...but they are abusive...because you fill in what you don't know and that direspects others and their truth.

He said he has a problem with avoidance...your part ends in knowing he has this problem, sees it and is working on it. If you then EXPECT him to avoid, you DJ. Do not predicate others...what they do now is what they do...no room for change, to do something differently, if you're choosing your actions from your expectations of how he might (or might not) avoid or not avoid right now.

You call yourself immature, a wreck...that you're trying very hard to get clarity on your life, your situation...that's where I got that you don't trust yourself...along with asking, "Is that acceptable?" which is asking what only you can answer...is that acceptable to you? That you post your thoughts, share your processes is AWESOME. I want you to realize you can TRUST and RELY on you...the more you learn the more you know the more trust.

I suggested listen and repeat:
"I hear you saying I wanted to be miserable now, is that correct?

And you asked:
"Isn't that a DJ. Assuming that he wants me to be miserable?"

What I said was asking for confirmation you heard correctly...if what he meant was that he believes you wanted to be miserable or not...and you asked if that was assuming he wanted you to be miserable?

Those two don't follow at all. You took what I said and made it from his perspective...which we can't do. Just you and me here. I got nothing at all from what you posted about him wanting you to be miserable. Help me out...now I'm confused.

Clarification is not DJs...you're respectful...you're asking if you heard correctly. That's why I made the question two parts...because you didn't say what you heard, so I went with me as you and got those two options.

Again, this is learning, and I want you to know that, not get caught up in technicalities because they really do distract from intent, your goal...simplying because you're human, extremely complicated and layered...webbed...pick your metaphor...we all are.

"What should I have said? I felt his tone and words were still abusive. That he was still in attack mode."

Feeling someone is abusive and knowing when they are is really important. "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patrica Evans helped me to clear up these lines. Heck, when I felt rejected, I felt abused. When I felt discounted, defined, ignored, shut out...I felt abused. I can feel a lot of things...my feelings come from my beliefs, and I have thousands of them...and a lot from when I was 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years old. Do I want to live by those, as an adult?

You defined him when you said that he wasn't ready to have this conversation. You stepped on his stuff. You both do that a lot to each other. Takes time and practice, first to see it, know it, and NOT do it. A process. Are you hearing me say you're the whole problem? You're causing all this? You're wrong? You're bad! I'm not. Not at all. I remember hearing this, feeling this, inside me for years. I couldn't get what I wasn't getting because of it.

I'm here for YOU. When I show you what you do, you'll better see how it's done to you, also. You control you...you really get that. What recovered my marriage was me breaking our enmeshment, injecting respect which made me safe to be intimate...I can only control that part. I'm attempting to share that with you...how I had to do this...be aware of my own filter...how I heard and perceived things...know that I controlled that filter (yay!) and how different life looked when I stuck a hopper of respect on my head and did not allow what my WH said to come into my brain until I KNEW the difference...his truth, his opinion and experience...from mine.

Knowing you can feel attacked and not be really attacked is important. Because there are times when you really are...do you want to react the same way at all times? I don't think so...it's messy and confusing. Not truthful.

When humans feel pain, their helpful brains are handing them this emotion, and it is cumulative. If you experience his avoidance as being less than, not a priority, then each time you experience his avoidance, you will have the cumulative impact of all the other times, AND all the other times someone else did this throughout your whole life...each time...rolled into one.

Whew. Wow. Realize this...we are the cumulation of all of our past...yet our choice remains...do we bring it all into the present or get clear on this time, this way, right now?

Boundaries...enforcements...standards...lots of stuff.

Boundary enforcements must be three things...predetermined, progressive and enacted consistently...can't do them from feelings, can you? First offense...state what you're hearing as abusive. Second infraction. State that you will remove yourself from the conversation if the abuse continues. Third...remove yourself, stating why and for what time period. You want him to be transparent? You be transparent.

Boundaries don't control other people...they are about you...your choice when they choose. Predetermined...takes out the reactive part. Progressive...you don't nuke when it you could have used a flyswatter (hope Al Turtle read that); and your consistency tells your own self that you matter, you are in charge of your life, and you base it in truth. You value yourself.

Others can feel attacked, degraded, controlled when you enforce your boundaries. That's them. Not you. Learning to speak respectfully, owning your own stuff, HNT, has to come first. 'Cuz first enforcement is speaking...what if he doesn't cross your boundary? What if you're just flooded with emotions, anger jumbled with pain and chokes off your words? "I feel flooded right now. I would like to talk to you in 15 minutes."

You were positive he was crossing your boundary for respect...define respect for me...how you see it...because that's important to everything I'm telling you. Could mean courtesy, consideration, love...anything...admiration...valuation...acknowledgement...respect is separate for me.

I am reading where you're asking for elaboration...and I'm overwhelmed. I have this thing, where I repeat, repeat and do so very much that I bore myself, weaken my own self-impact...and now I feel like I'm letting you down. You are a dynamo...would you please search my threads for "hopper" "standards and boundaries" and stuff? This is me, not you. You're worth it. I don't feel adequate right now.

Clarifying the process...you are fearful of contact...continuing the affair...he will not put what is fact onto paper for fear of consequences...he won't do this, own what he did and that he doesn't want any contact ever again from OW, to protect the marriage...which adds to your protection, correct? Your part is to know that choice. This isn't an obstacle...he could do it...live in truth, free himself from living reactively...can you see him choosing his actions based on possible response?

Your part is to understand that he is not choosing to protect the marriage, that his own fear supercedes truth. Not a judgment...helping you to see things as they really are...I interpret what you post as a lot of this...believing outside stuff gets in the way of your relationship--I believe it is at the heart of conflict within it.

You already know the difference between what he says and what he does...you know not to believe him. Stay there. During recovery, I didn't believe my DH for over 14 months...my choice. We still were recovering, sharing, working, committed...didn't negatively impact our intimacy building...

What I'd like you to look at is you wanting someone else protecting you from themselves...which is reasonable...and not in your control. And you can't really protect yourself from pain, can you? Trusting yourself to experience pain, knowing what it is and where it's coming from...understanding it...instead of trying to prevent it may free you to really thrive. We can't prevent others from betraying us...we can from betraying ourselves. Same for lying, stealing, degrading, abusing, etc.

Do not ask stuff for his benefit, HNT. That leads you to curing him...being his helpmate...when he can research, ask, post, read himself. Respect his choice of what he tries to cope...and learn for yourself true living skills...when you change you, everything changes.

When you attempt to educate...send him to a post...hand him a book, you are disrespecting...and yeah, this seems really contrary to everything we ever learned about nurturing and love. Think about it...he's a whole person too...you found your way here, he can also. He knows you're here. Respect his choice to do or not do...this was really very difficult for me to grasp...I reminded myself to not educate...only share what I learn and how I felt, thought and believed...and NOT educate, instruct, urge, encourage, etc. I list these words as signals of what we do under our own radar, so you might catch yourself.

"I also told him that ultimately it was his choice."

Good to know you did share your feelings, too. When you say this, affirm you KNOW it's his choice...not ultimately, but every thought of the way. You're doing well...is that what you're not hearing? Do you need me to say you're not nuts or wrong? I think you're an astute, insightful and amazing person...I fear your rush and am battling my own fear of your headlong...I was very much like that. Had I stayed that way, I don't believe I could have recovered. In my headlong, our MC said, "LA? Are you a human being or a human doing?"

That helped.

And yeah, I felt shamed, attacked and judged. Best question he could have asked at that time.

That's where I'm coming from.

What will you do if he returns to that company? You stated you would not like it, feel great fear, uncertainty and pain...what if he chooses to, saying that money has to come first before your security, safety and that of the marriage?

He chooses, you choose. Predetermined, progressive...me repeating.

Agree with him! It is your choice to not continue your relationship if he chooses to not protect his weaknesses...essentially sacrificing the relationship for FS. Does it make any sense to say you're sailing a ship onto the rocks so you can be on land? Why sink what you're sailing to get to land?

You're valid. Your choices are not wrong or crazy. They're yours. Your life, HNT.

Another thing I learned...blame, like offense, has to be taken. Can't be given. We cannot be blamed unless we allow it. Others can believe we are at fault...only we determine if it was within our control, our responsibility, or not.

You can agree with him that to end the relationship is your choice...same with staying in it...he chooses, you choose. Two separate, equal human beings responsible for their own stuff.

I'm going to the last part...do you live from feelings? If you're angry, you stomp your foot...that's taking an action based on a feeling...do you run when you fear? Distract? Avoid? Close up when you feel attacked? (You're not doing that here...you're brave and true...so I gotta ask what it looks like from behind your own eyelids.)

LA

Thank you, LA! I'm sorry to ask for so much clarification. Usually I catch on to things fairly quickly. For some reason, much of this seems to go way over my head. Not just you, everyone lately. It happens alot with WBF. That last post made much more sense to me. It helps if you can just spell things out in the simplest terms possible. I know you probably feel you are. Not you, it's me.

The very beginning part, I had trouble with.



If you would like to simplify, that's great! If not, that's okay, too.



I really didn't know if I wanted the food right then or not. My response was a way of punishing him or anything. It didn't have anything to do with him. I just genuinely was unsure whether or not I was hungry at that moment. The point is, I responded. I wasn't giving him silent treatment.



At the time that he asked what my issue was, I was ready to have a conversation. He approached me with an abrasive tone, however, and I didn't want the conversation to continue that way. I am not saying anyone is wrong or right.
This is very much a learning experience. When I am unsure I ask questions. I do not intend for them to come across sarcastically. This is all very new and different for me and I appreciate your help tremendously. If it were not for you, I would have probably completely lost my mind by now. I know that you can't give me how to handle every situation, but you help me to know when I handle situations inappropriately and how to change that. The way that I have always handled situations are not compatible with the life I want to live. It is a learned behavior and I have to unlearn that and learn something else. I am learning that with your help and support as well as everyone else's here. I am grateful.

I just can't seem to grasp the concept on DJs. I have read up on it and will continue to do so. I was trying to come up with questions that I could ask myself to prevent that. Such as...Is what I am about to say an assumption?...etc. I see that I do it quite often, but am not sure how to figure out when I am doing it. I will search more and look at what you recommended as well.

As for the NC letter. I understand what you are saying. I, too, fear the consequences that could follow from that. The OW knows darn well he doesn't want contact with her and I don't believe that a letter is going to change anything one way or another. I know it has only been 12 days of no contact but I cherish those 12 days and a NC letter would start that over. If she is going to contact him, she's going to do it. Letter or no letter. If he contacts her, she is going to take the call, letter or no letter. I see no reason to sacrifice his entire career for something I don't believe will make a difference in regards to contact anyway. Ensuring he is able to get employment elsewhere and provide for our family is protecting us, IMO.

As far as WBF returning to work, I have made it clear that if he chooses to return, then I will choose not to continue to relationship. His choice is his and mine is mine. He has stated that he won't be returning. He has said that before, but again. It his choice and reserves the right to change his choice.

Do I live from feelings? I think I do. At least with WBF. I believe it is part of my DPD. I don't want to live that way so I have to learn another way.