Thanks for acknowledging I exist.

I'm just coming apart alot of times and have no where to turn. Often find myself wanting to give up.

You are worth way too much to give up.

Even if he doesn't treat you that way all the time.

This is kind of a random thing. Sometimes we read a thread, and think we can help, so we post. Sometimes we read, and think we can help but then the phone rings, or someone walks in the office to talk to us.

Sometimes we read, and care, but don't know what to say.

My experiance is that it isn't as bad as we sometimes think. We are usually stronger, and more able to cope than we feel we are.

I need to go again - but have hope, and don't let it get to you.

Smile more, it's good for your face.

SS

In the meantime try to have fun together. Go out to loud places or movies where deep "talking" is kind of difficult. Try to enjoy the rest of the summer and if HE feels like talking them do talk some. It's hard to work on the relationship TOGETHER until TOGETHERNESS is reestablished. I don't think 3 months is logical but at least a month. Commit first to SCHEDULING at least 20 hours a week together. Try to make that alone time. Arrange a babysitter for the toddler and go out and have fun TOGETHER.

WBF must be transparent. No more nights out without you. No more secrecy. Inspect what you expect. NO CONTACT must be maintained or the withdrawal clock gets reset.

Prepare your own WRITTEN plan for becoming a better individual, parent and relationship partner. Focus on working on your plan for the time being. You must individually grow from this experience so that once real recovery work commences WBF must either work with you and grow TOGETHER or discontinue the relationship. This matter is NOT going to be swept under the rug. The underlying causes must be addressed but time is on your side. Have patience, reconnect with WBF and have fun.

Slowly introduce the MB principles. If WBF is reading here he should go to the bottom of the screen and click on the link to the basic concepts and familiarize himself with them. He'll likely not be to receptive to this site NOW but this place really is a phenominal place for individual and relationship growth. Stick around...you just may learn something.

Easier said then done...I remember how hard it was not to talk about everything when you're busting at the seems but it's just to early for either of you to process much of anything...which is more frustrating and damaging than just letting it slide for a few weeks.

That's my advice.

Mr. Wondering

hangn - Sit down, because I've got some tough love for you.

I think you are not getting many responses because your posts are frantic, frenzied, near-hysterical and very hard to read.

I tried to go through your thread but I'm having trouble getting a coherent story.

I gather that you are not married to this man but have a child/children with him, and that he's got children with one or two other girlfriends.

Who is the OW? One of the girlfriends/babymamas, or someone else?

Okay. You've been asking for advice, but everytime somebody tries to give you some you go blasting off on yet another wild tangent and don't seem to hear what anyone is telling you.

I'll give it to you straight: Marriage and family is for grownups. It's not for people who can't commit and are addicted to drama. And frankly, that is what you and your live-in boyfriend and his girlfriends sound like.

If you want us to help you with your relationship, then you've got to do your part. You've got to

CALM DOWN

SLOW DOWN

AND GET A PLAN.

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT THE GIRLFRIENDS/BABYMAMAS ARE DOING.

GET A PLAN AND STICK TO IT.

I WOULD RECOMMEND THE MARRIAGEBUILDERS "PLAN A" FOR STARTERS.

Okay. Got that?

Now, two other questions:

1) Are you on anti-depressants to help alleviate your anxiety and your inablilty to control your emotions?

2) If you and your boyfriend have been together for eight years and have a child together, why are you not married?
Mulan

Thank U Mulan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok Hanginthere.....how can we help you get a plan? You seem a bit lost in your direction.

JMHO,
L.

Thank you all for your responses! Yes, I very much do need a plan, although I am not exactly sure what that means. I am extraordinarily lost. I think that maybe the A has made me stupid. Or maybe I was stupid before that and just never realized it. I just really and truly don't get it. I don't understand what is going on. I don't completely understand the MB principles. I definitely don't understand the process. I know that there's the A, then NC, withdrawal....recovery. I don't know what goes in between or how it happens. I don't know how we get from here to there. Everyone says it works like magic. I don't understand that either. Will WBF just wake up one day and realize that he's in love with me? If so, then won't we wonder how we got there? There are things that have to take place to facilitate this. I don't know what they are. Alot of people "get it" and yet no one has been able to explain it to me in a way that I can comprehend. Not their fault, mine. WBF gets it but can't explain it to me either.

I found the MB website while A was still ongoing (although I didn't see it that way at the time). I spent a whole day reading it. I looked at it more as information about infidelity than a plan for recovery. A look into the WS psyche so to speak. It was then that I realized that the A was much deeper than I thought. I showed the information to WBF, hoping he would tell me that it wasn't the case, in all honesty. I wanted him to say that is BS, it's not that serious. That is not what happened. He read it and got it right away. He said, "Now, I know exactly what I need to do. I need to quit my job, we need to move to another place and I have to have NC with OW." He immediately comprehended it as a plan. I,for some reason, didn't. But I was certainly not expecting that at all. So, I guess it was him who suggested we follow this plan (after he pointed out that it was actually a process, not just information about infidelity.) I have been coming back to website reading everything I can and when out an got SAA and HNHN and have read them and reread them ever since.

I know that I could benefit greatly from spreaking to the Harley's. I just cannot afford it. I have no insurance and we don't have a penny to our names. I just don't understand why I can't comprehend it. I want it. I really want it. It's just difficult to commit to something when you don't know exactly what you're committing to. I don't know what to expect. What is supposed to be happening in the end of/post withdrawal phase?
I know that we are supposed to spend 15 hours a week together with undivided attention. What kind of activies does that include? What do we do with that time? We have no money, so we can't go out, we can't even rent movies. I don't think that T.V. constitutes undivided attention anyway. That is what we spend all of time doing. Watching mostly what he wants to watch which is usually completely boring to me no matter how much I try to find interest in it. The other problem is that we are still on the vicious cycle of what was happening that led up to the A. We have implemented nothing new because "we aren't in recovery yet". Don't follow POJA, the four rules, not really avoiding LB's so much either. WBF hasn't got to a place where he's reading the books or the website or anything. Only thing he reads are my posts because he wants to know what I'm thinking. I try to avoid as much "R" talk as possible. We haven't taken care of the original problems and those same obstacles stand in our way of having fun together sometimes.

I know another problem I have is that I have too many expectations and don't know how to just be. I realize this and just cannot seem to get rid of the expectations. Let's take for example, say WBF and I have a conversation and it deposits love units into his account in my bank. I want to act on that with some cuddling or affection or SF. When it doesn't happen I get very disappointed, frustrated, feel rejected, etc... I don't kow how to stop this from happening. I try not to "R" talk but things build up and build up inside of me and then I'm like a ticking time bomb and usually end up exploding in the form of AO. I can't be a person that compartmentalizes my feelings. I try to find other ways of letting them out. I write here, I keep a journal, I take a walk. It might help for a little while but eventually comes back stronger than before.

To clarify my situation. WBF and I have been together for 6 years. We have a daughter (2) and a deceased son together. WBF has been married twice (no children from either of those) and has 2 daughters from XGF (they were never married). OW was a co-worker. WBF's direct subordinate. She is single. We were never married because he has alot of debt, tax debt, C.S. debt, you name it. If we were to marry then I would have incurred a debt that he obtained long before I came into his life. Being married would've meant that IRS would take my refund to pay his debt, C.S. would've included my income in the C.S. obligations and anything left of my refund after IRS got a hold of it would've went to C.S. If he were to file bankruptcy and we were married, we would have to file joint bankruptcy and my credit would've been affected for a debt I didn't incur. C.S. would come after any funds deposited into a bank account in either of our names. We have never been well off financially, we have always needed every penny we can get. We have also borrowed an enormous amount of money from relatives, just to get by. Also, not being married gave me the benefit of welfare medical insurance (for me and my daughter, we don't have anything right now) when we couldn't afford to get insurance. Don't get me wrong, I too have alot of debt. No where near the amount that WBF does. I just wasn't willing to accept responsibilty for debt he incurred before we were together. At some point, it didn't matter to me anymore. I had suggested that we get married. I didn't know until later that the A happened to be going on at that time. He has told me that he would marry me tomorrow.

For the record, I could care less about his baby's mamma. The only reason she and the other children became a topic is because I was asked.

Also, I am on ADs but they don't seem to help the anxiety much. Can't get them switched now. No $ no insurance.

Whew! That was a long post! Mine usually are. I could go on and on but I'll just let you guys chew on that for a while. I really want this to work but I really need alot of help and support. I really appreciate everything. I know I am not the only person that needs it but it is very discouraging when I post for a week straight with no response.

Anyways! Please help in any way you can. I'll take whatever I can get right now.

Hanginthere,

Whew...that was a long post. A bit clumped together but I get the pix.

Believe it or not, your sitch is not the 1st or the worst. As for you 'getting it'. It will come....in time. U gotta be patient about it.

Also there are a lot of odds stacked against you both having a good R and M right now but you are still bringing children into this world. Think about your future plans.

Plans. An important thing to have in life. It is a map for future choices and can save you from grief instead of making it up as one goes along down the road of life.

Plans provide the path to goals.

Enough said about plans for now. I will let you absorb that. Later you will be asked to sit down and write a plan for you, the a plan for your family.

Whether u r married or not, you both have a family and responsibilities. So a plan is essential towards any recovery.

I have to take my son to the doctor this morning. I will come back to give my further POV if you'd like. I am sure others will chime in.

If it gets to overwhelming...... read it slowly and let it absorb more. You don't have to respond right away but do let us know how you are doing.

Main thing is attitude. Long as u r willing to learn, support c/b provided. Remember we don't take the place of a good MC or Steve....that's separate support but we can help.

There are many of us who would love to counsel with Steve & Jennifer from MB but can't afford it. Nothing t/b ashamed of, just pull the best out of what you can afford t/d (reading and posting), apply it as best you can, discard what is not applicable to your sitch and in time.....you will see results. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

by the way.... think of you today so don't worry about no one responding.

Start with Plan A.

Start with Plan A.

Start with Plan A.

Here is a reprint of an older post which may help you.

Maybe you could go through one line at a time and explain to us how you are going to start doing each thing.

For example, the first line is "Meet your wandering spouse's emotional needs". You could explain to us exactly how you intend to do that.

Do the same for each line. Make each one a separate post. It might be easiest for you to try this first.
Mulan

*****************************************************

"The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband

THE CARROT OF PLAN A:

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



THE STICK OF PLAN A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Allowing the consequences of adultery and infidelity to fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to affect children of the marriage or the financial security of the marriage, or otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slain for the good of the family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you all very much! I have seen and read "The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" many times before. I think it is a good idea to go over it one line at a time. Thank you!
I am still going to need lots of help and guidance. I hope you all don't give up on me. I'm sure my lack of understanding can be very frustrating at times. I'm trying very hard.

Okay, one line at a time.

First line, "Meet your wandering spouse's emotional needs".

I feel so embarrassed and dense. I'm having difficulty with this. (What else is new?)

I know what his top 5 ENs are. I forget what order they are in (I have them written down at home, I use the computer at my mom's) but I know that ADMIRATION is #1. The rest are (in random order) recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment, domestic support, conversation. I'm having a hard time understanding what these mean to him and how to meet them. I've tried to get clarification from him on this without much success. I've even gone as far as to ask exactly how the OW met his needs to get some examples of how he wants these needs to be met. To try to at least get a starting point.(I don't know if this was a good idea or not.)

Let's start with #1- ADMIRATION. This is the one I have the most difficulty with. I do admire him for alot of things as well as admire him for who he is as a person. (Of course don't admire the infidelity, but anyway.) I always have. I've just never showed it. Don't really know how. When I asked about how the OW met this need, he told me she would say things like, "You're a good man!" and "You are so brave the way you took on cancer. I am so proud of you!" (I have told him that before also but apparently didn't mean as much coming from me). So, I tried this for awhile. For example, he was on an intense job search and I would say "Honey! I am so proud of you for the way you are sending out so many resumes and applications. I really appreciate that you want to be able to take such good care of us." or when he was nervous before an interview I would say something like, "You shouldn't be nervous. You are the best at what you do and you have an amazing way of letting employers know what an asset you can be to the company. It really amazes me how you know exactly what to say when employers put you ask you difficult questions.". Or if he was turned down for a job opportunity, I would say, "It's their loss, Babe. Didn't they look at your resume? They're crazy for passing on you. Don't they see how qualified you are? They obviously don't know what they're doing and you probably don't want to work for them anyway. Don't worry! The next place will see what you can for them.". (I use these examples because his career is the most important thing to him) He said that he didn't believe me and he thought it was all fake. I don't know if it's because he isn't used to hearing those kind of things from me or what. I wasn't being fake. I meant everything I was saying. I stopped doing this after he said that because it seemed obvious to me that isn't what he wanted from me.

About a week and a half ago, we got into a little tiff about affection. Affection isn't one of his top 5 ENs. But apparently, from what he says, affection makes him feel admired. Affection IS one of my top 5 and so I have no problem with that. I want LOTS of affection. Giving and Receiving.

My confusion here comes from this. He has always got tons of affection from me. Why was that not seen as admiration then and it is now? He hardly had any affection from OW, so he wasn't getting admiration through affection with her. He got admiration from her in other ways. Why does he seek admiration from me one way and her a completely different way? The point here is that when I tried it her way, he didn't like it. I don't think that the admiration through affection is sufficient in long term or else I would have been meeting that need all along. According to him, I wasn't. I don't know what to do to meet that need to his satisfaction. I know that only he has the answer to that but how do I get it out of him?

As you can see this is going to be a very long process in the tiniest steps possible. As long as something is happening, I'll be encouraged. So, please, any advice, suggestions?

I figured I would rename the post. I needed to bump my previous post for advice. I also just wanted to update on how things are going. I think we have been just being for the most part. Getting along ok, I think. Saturday night, after I picked WBF up from his brother's, we had a conversation and I think found where the confusion was coming from. He felt that we needed to just get along before we intoduced anymore of the MB principles. I felt that we needed to implement the MB principles in order to get along. We still weren't understanding eachother and somewhere along the way he said something about "that doesn't fall under the rule of protection". I said, "that's exactly my point! We need to use MB prinicples now, not later." We agreed to read SAA some more, I have read it many times but he has only glanced at it here and there.

Last night, I reread from withdrawal to the end of SAA over again. We tried to schedule our undivided attention time. We scheduled 2-3 hrs each day and some things we could do in that time. It is all very flexible and can change accordingly since we are both unemployed and spend just about 24 hrs a day together. I'm not sure if we have the right idea of what we should be doing with that time. We said no T.V., no daughter (some time will have to be spent after she goes to bed and other times we can get a sitter), it should include RC, SF, affection and conversation if possible. Here are some ideas that we have: going for a walk, playing cards, playing game (SF and affection), give eachother baths and massages. Do we have the right idea? I would gladly consider any other suggestions.

So, tonight we are planning to work on SAA. I guess that means him reading it and making sure we are on the same page. I would also like to talk with him about his ENs. How he would like me to meet them, etc.. I was thinking about writing him a letter or something that explains each of my ENs, what they mean to me, how and how often I would like them met. Stuff like that. That way he will now exactly what would make me happy and also get an idea of what I need him to clarify about his needs. Does this sound like a good idea?

Also, because we seem to have a major problem with communication, I would also like to suggest that we both clarify EVERYTHING. That way no one is confused about comments, questions, feelings, plans, anything.

One more thing, I'm unsure whether or not we should be "R" talking. I would do it almost constantly and would probably lose it almost constantly if it never happened so I suggested that we schedule 1 hour a week for "R" talk.
WBF said that "R" talk should happen as needed. I guess he figures that if there is something needed to get out, we should do it immediately. Part of emotional honesty. I guess that's where we stand on that.

Anyways, Thanks for reading my always incredibly long posts. Please read the previous one as well. I need guidance for both. Thank you all for your help.

hangn, this is a bad sign. "We can't get married because then he'd get my money and I'd lose my welfare benefits" is NOT a reason to just live together.

Marriage is a commitment - again, it's a commitment for grownups. His debts become your debts, and vice versa. They become the FAMILY's debts. Just living together and not getting married because you don't want to help with HIS debts, and refuse to see them as OUR debts - well, no wonder you're having trouble.

Neither one of you was willing to fully commit to the relationship.


So - why doncha?
Mulan

Mulan,



I was 18 yrs old when we started dating. Yes, legally an adult but doesn't necessarily qualify as a "grownup".
I longer feel that way and besides, we have incurred alot of debt together over the years.

Why don't I marry him now? Do you really think that now is the time? When our relationship is at it's weakest? I really appreciate his commitment to me and this process. When I think of reasons I believe people should get married, it's not just for the commitment, it's because they're in love (or need a green card or something, lol, jk).

Mulan, we are not in love. I would just rather us be married for the right reasons. When asked why we married eachother, I don't want to answer "because he cheated on me and it was his way of trying to make it up to me." I would like to say "Because we were in love and wanted to spend the rest of our lives together."

Now, can you help me with a plan? I wrote him the thing about my ENs last night. It was like 12 pages. In it, I also asked him for help with his ENs. He never responded.

We spent our undivided attention time playing a game called "A Hot Affair...with your partner" It was fun. The ending was very fun (S.F. woo hoo!) Sorry! TMI.

On another note, it also looks like we won't be moving away after all. All the jobs he's applied for fell through. I guess we're gonna have to take jobs that we would've never considered in a miilion years. We're desperate. We're struggling to make it day to day. Pawning almost everything we own. I'm really disappointed. I couldn't wait to get away from here. Away from the A, OW, and all the triggers. Wanted to start over in a new place. Now, we'll be stuck here forever. Ughh!

No, I don't think either one of you is ready to marry at this time. I think you are absolutely right.


What commitment???


Then why on earth are you together? You are not in love and neither one of you is committed to a permanent, exclusive relationship. It sounds like it's just a form of live-in dating and always has been. And that is NEVER going to work.


That's great. That's the way it should be. But you cannot make him love you when he doesn't. Again, you do not sound like two adults trying to create a partnership. You sound like a couple of high school kids going through dating drama and traum. Big difference.


Hangn, the MB plans are for COUPLES. They are for COMMITTED couples. They will not work when there is no 100% committment from at least one of you. They just won't.

If you do not want to be married to this man, that really is okay. It's perfectly fine and normal. But this site is for Marriage Building. It can't help folks who aren't all that committed to each other and who are really just dating, not married.


Twelve pages is way, way, way too long. He probably never even read it.

If you really want to try MB principles, I would suggest this:

1) Plan A. Plan A. Plan A. NOTHING MORE. KEEP IT SHORT and SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE.

2) Fill out the EN questionnaire but make it 12 LINES total - not 12 pages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Mulan,

Thank you again for responding! I wrote a rather lengthy response and it disappeared.

I am very confused by you, Mulan. I don't see how this "tough love" you are giving me is going to help me.
I know that this is "Marriage Builders" but I haven't found anything called "Relationship Builders". It seems to me that because we never formally purchased a $50 piece of paper, our relationship is not worth anything to alot of people one here. I don't know your situation but I can only guess that you are here for a reason. Did that piece of paper really matter in the long run? Did it keep infidelity out? Why is your relationship that much different then mine?

No, we are not in love. We once were and would like to get there again. Would like to rebuild a healthy, respectful relationship that will lead to marriage. I came here for support and guidance. I need help and I need a plan. I appreciate your responses and at times I feel like you are trying to help, but very often not. If you would like to help and guide me in the direction I would like to go in, then thank you. But if not, then please stop responding because I feel you are being very condescending.

Thank You!

How is your relationship like that of married people? Do you see any differences in your relationship and that of people who chose to get married? Do you really believe that marriage is only a piece of paper?

Mrs. W

Hangn, It doesn't matter one bit what your relationship is to anyone here.

What matters is what it is to YOU and your boyfriend.

Whether you call it a Relationship, a Marriage, or a Baloney Sandwich, what you have does not seem to involve any real and solid commitment on your part or on your boyfriend's part.

That's why I'm not sure we can help you here.

And no, getting "a piece of paper" won't make any difference.

WANTING the "piece of paper", WANTING the commitment it represents and WANTING the protection it confers is what makes the difference.

Again: Plan A. Plan A. Plan A. Give it three months and go from there. That's the best advice I have for you. That's what others are told to do.
Mulan

Mrs. W,



I know many married couples as well as many unmarried couples that have been living together for years. No, I don't see any differences in the relationships at all. None what so ever. Maybe it is just my environment, but the fact that we are not legally married makes no difference to anyone in our lives. We have always been treated as married couple. Until the A (and even still), many people referred to us as husband and wife (including the OW). Common Law Marriage doesn't happen to be recognized in my state anymore (just recently) but the reason that such a thing existed is because once people live together as husband and wife for a certain amount of years, the legal "piece of paper" makes no difference to the couple or anyone else. So yes, I do honestly believe it is just a piece of paper. Yes, it does come with many changes. Changing my last name, meshing of finances, etc..But honestly nothing that really would change for us. My mother just got out of a 15 year relationship, they were not married. My father and step-mother just got married after being together 10 years. It didn't change anything at all except her last name. So I'm sorry if there is something that I'm missing that makes my relationship less important than married peoples'.


Mulan,



I am dumbfounded as to why you are saying this. I am not clear as to what gave you that impression. If we got married, would that change something?



Again, I'm dumbfounded. Of course I want the commitment of marriage and of course I want the protection it confers. Why else would I be here? As far as I'm concerned, my level of commitment and protection (the best I know how) is of those of married couples.




Thanks Again Mulan!

Now, is there anyone out there willing and patient enough to help me with Plan A?

I need help! I lack direction! I'm lost! No one is patient!
I want my life and my relationship back to happy and healthy. I need guidance! I read all the books, I search the website, I ask for help! I'm on my last hope. I'll have to just let the chips fall and see where they land. Do the best I can with what I have and hope for the best.

Your relationship woes have nothing to do with your marital status... but the solution to your relationship issues can be all the easier because you are not married. I can speak to you from experience... I was married to my high school sweetheart very young and we divorced...a bit messy financially. I was cheated on by my fiancee and that is what brought me here. I can tell you that although the emotional pain that I felt walking away from the fiancee was far greater than the marriage.. the legalities of it were so much easier.

So, you have clearly said, you are not in love with one another. So, really, why are you wasting your time on a cheater that you are not married to and that you do not love. there are a lot of other people out there that will treat you right in a mature and healthy relationship.

I think that you should walk away and get some individual counseling. You sound pretty immature... and that is not a knock on you, just an observation. I was pretty immature at your age too. Really, it seems like the best thing for everybody here would be for you to move on with your life without this man.

People here have been trying to help you... you haven't been listening. You are more concerned with their response style than the content of their message.