HNT,

Mulan and MrsW are awesome...they are not attacking you. They are coming at you with pure intent, honest execution.

If marriage is just a piece of paper to you...then they truly are at a lost to convey how vastly different that belief is with what we do here.

No one vowed to you or got vows from you. Part of the reality I was asking you to live and breathe in is lost to you because you choose this belief. You are worth marrying and being married. There is something important in not having that piece of paper now, which states, "You will have to take legal action to leave this union."

You can walk away. He can walk away. That's a scary place to save a relationship from. You have a dear daughter. If fighting an affair takes knowing the difference between reality and fantasy at every turn, then how is your foundation to fight from, if not being married is the same as being married?

If you feel married, you are...then that means when you feel in love with others, you are...it is part of the fantasy we soothe with, live chaotically from...and where relationships are only valid as long as they are felt...tenuous existence.

What these ladies are attempting to communicate to you is where Plan A truly begins...being authentic and real...knowing what is and what is perceived.

It isn't easy to get...but it's crucial.

You know what got me from living together to marriage? Realizing that living together was playing house...others can call you husband and wife; if you're not married, it's a lie. That piece of paper, those stated vows in front of witnesses...are not rituals we sentimentally perform. Overcoming your fear of failure, of the unknown, takes courage to say them, sign it and declare your truest intent. It matters. Not doing that, is doing a shortcut...which is fantasy...and so a relationship is based on one or the other.

Marriage for the right reasons...to be two whole people united...the reasons you are not married would tell you that you're not as high a priority as money, convenience, possible ease (less to deal with); marriage says you are his highest priority, above money or convenience; your way of telling him you share in his bounty and poverty, his income and debt; accepting both of your pasts, sharing the present and building a future...marriage says, we're in this life together.

Neither guarantees a smooth road...only one says that a union exists, even we don't feel like it; not given to whether you are loved anymore, or right now...and will be again...

You are unsure of how to meet his ENs...that's good...you're not DJing...ask him to tell you how he feels loved by you...the actions, the steps...and you tell him...between you and him. Just you and him.

Do not compare yourself to OW...that's more fantasy. You're real. Learn and tell...no reactive demands, measuring, LBs...and you learning how to do this by learning about yourself, doing this FOR yourself.

I've mentioned DJs a lot...told you why, what they are...you've read on this site and I hope, understand what they are...how harmful to others and to yourself they really are. There is your foundation for Plan A.

Plan A takes you defining your goal specifically...and teaching yourself to focus on that goal, repeatedly.

"I am choosing to meet ENs, eliminate LBs, to be vigilant and aware of my actions, thoughts, feelings and beliefs." When you really know it as your choice, to love, demonstrate love, and not based on response you get today, then you will have yourself centered.

And you meet your own ENs, as well. If you crave openness and honesty, then you hold yourself to giving it, both to him and to yourself. If you crave affection, hold yourself to being affectionate...both to him and to yourself.

You self-coach, without judgment...do a lot of breathing to be calm, listen and repeat to acknowledge; and you will learn reality...take it on with both hands.

HNT...you are in a high-stress situation...financially and emotionally; you remain a mother, a woman, a partner and a human being. Learn to state what you feel and accept others' statements...strive to first understand, then be understood. Ask for what you don't see...I'm experiencing this right now...knowing well I'm redoing that severely painful journey of infidelity but with my parents...and here I am, telling you what I did, and feel as lost.

"I'll have to just let the chips fall and see where they land. Do the best I can with what I have and hope for the best."

Can you see where this self-advice is very true and real? You have no control over what happens next...only right now, your part...only what you truly control. Chips fall and you choose what to do after they do. You are doing the best you can...sitting and absorbing all you've been told...lots of great, loving advice I read from posters to you; they can only share THEIR way...you have to choose your own way...

You ask questions no one here can answer...why wasn't he this or that before? I advise you to not focus on what you don't know about WBF and take each of those questions, as they arise, as a signal you're not focusing on yourself, where you have important answers...why do I go into the past and compare? Where's my payoff in doing that? Am I trying to make it so the A didn't happen, that I didn't cause it? Do I really know I couldn't cause it?

State what you admire about him in the present as you see it...state it simply and from your heart. Let go whether it meets his need for now...do it because you admire and love him.

State your appreciation for what he does in the present, as it happens...state it simply and from your heart. Be aware of gratitude...all you have for everyone...feel the payoff in THAT awareness and a lot of the false payoffs will pale in comparison inside you.

State your admiration and appreciation for yourself, too. What you do for him, do for you...be aware you are acting by choice, for love. Love the way you want your DD to grow up and love...and feel loved. Stay focused on you, your part, in your own power...every choice...and embrace you are limited.

You have noted where your relationship patterns have been broken...where the reactivity did not complete the loop...and you are aware and you celebrate that. Continue it...won't be able to do your part perfectly, nor will he...keep at it, anyway.

Note your real love bank does not fill to overflowing and then drop to below empty...real love doesn't do that. Your dependency problem exaggerates, inflating and deflating what cannot be done in a day or an event. Get to the real amounts, which are slower in and out...know your part in the withdrawals from your own bank (choosing to DJ does this, as well as AO or SD)...the more you notice your thinking goes from absolutely full to absolutely awful, you'll know you aren't in your adult frame of mind, but more into your child one.

Look for moderation...act it, embrace it and live it for now...look for the middle reaction...bolster those choice of actions and feel the abundance in moderation.

Takes time, patience with self, and repetition. You can do this. Make a plan for each day of what you'd like to accomplish...no DJs to others, spoken aloud...next day, no silent DJs...next day, no DJs to self...

Listen to your own thoughts and begin choosing them...think of OW? Say in your head, "No, that's not what I want" and picture your mind tossing out that thought...then think of yourself and something you like, a piece you're grateful for inside...do this each time.

Everything I've told you, MrW, SS and others have said.

Can you trust that you will get what you need when you need it most?

LA

Thank you very much! Everyone, especially LovingAnyway!

I am rereading my entire thread and everyone's responses.
I figure just because I may not have understood them at the time, doesn't mean I may not be able to understand them now.

It has taken awhile to get used to LA's writing style. Rereading the posts now gives me a little more understanding.

Here is where we are at now. 31 days NC! Yeah! WBF says he "no longer thinks about that", so I guess withdrawal is over, at least for now. Our main concerns are financial. WBF has taken a job at ground level and will have to work his way back up to Sr. Mgmt. That is okay, some money is better than no money. Unfortunately, that means we won't be moving out of town in the forseeable future which is diappointing to us both. We will, however, have to leave our apt. by Sept. 30th.

As far as the relationship, things are going okay. Nothing spectacular, nothing horrible. We are pretty much just being. We "R" talk once in a while and we have improved greatly as far as LBs are concerned. We sometimes call eachother out on things, like "That's a DJ!". I still need to work on AO a little more. I find myself especially aggitated in the mornings. He's doing ok with meeting my needs. Some improvements could be made but I feel he is trying and I've been trying not to expect much. I don't know how I am doing with meeting his needs. I have asked him to help me understand and ideas on how to meet them to his satisfaction. He said he would help but hasn't yet.

We haven't really been spending our 15-20hrs. undivided attention together. We need to work on that. BTW, does SF count in that time? We spend 24 hrs/day together, just not undivided attention. Here is my fear. I'm ok with "just being" but I'm afraid if we "just be" forever that our relationship will not develop to the one we both wish to have. I would like to start working on our recovery and don't know what steps to take to begin that process.

I love him and he says he loves me. We are just not "in love". I know that sounds like a very WS thing to say. I guess a better way to explain it could be that we have caring love but not romantic love. We would both like to get to where we have both. I know that things don't happen overnight but I would like to start taking steps toward that. Can someone please give me any advice on how to begin this process?

Hi, I hope I find you well. I've been around a little while and I can back LA up you have some extremely great support outside of LA. Mulan is wonderful and I don't really have any experience with Mrs. W but I can say the posts I've read are very insightful.

I have to laugh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, forgive me, when I read this:

"BTW, does SF count in that time?"

Yes, especially if it's meeting both of your needs! Personally, this is the time when I get backrubs, kisses on the neck, things that mean the most to me. Of course, I have to be in a good mood prior to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think that wonderful that the two of you are able to call out each others DJs. I can't get my WH into MB principles yet, but I do my very best to watch myself carefully.

"I still need to work on AO a little more. I find myself especially aggitated in the mornings."

Oh, my sister! I have the same problem...I've gotten better, but I'm not a morning person to begin with. The littlest thing will set me off...I like my quiet mornings...Let me wake up first...two cups of coffee and I'm good to go. The poor kids get it in the morning because WH is already at work. I was hostile the other day because the phone rang. I knew it was WH calling to make sure we were all up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I have the same fear...I have a tendency to freak out but I have to remember where I came from to where I am today...today you may not notice the small changes...but if you look back with a positive eye...you'll see...I do...

"I guess a better way to explain it could be that we have caring love but not romantic love."

I've never looked at it that way...thanks...that's where we are...we both want our M to work...we just lost each other behind all the anger and resentment...becoming disrespectful in the process...withdrawn...being still is not so bad...for the time being have you made a list of what you need for recovery? If you haven't you can begin it now and slowly add to it...I have one started but we're not ready yet...

To be honest, I have to work some boundaries first.

I'm sorry I may not have helped you answer your question but I wanted to let you know that you are certainly not alone. Be still for me is so hard...I have to have something to do...LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'll leave the advice to the wiser heads, but had to comment on this:


LA is one of my faves around here, has been a huge lifesaver for me .... has taught me a whole new way of thinking about things and looking at things and just had such a tremendous, positive impact on me.

But I still had to laugh a little at your comment. The first few times I read one of LA's posts to me, I thought "What in the world is she even talking about?" It took me a long time to start to "get" it. Mostly because she wasn't offering a magic-wand answer (which is what I was looking for), but actually making me think and look at myself and challenging some of my long-held beliefs and bad habbits, talking about a whole new way of thinking about things.

So keep reading her posts, even if it takes several read-throughs. You'll get it pretty soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MAgic wand answer...wait a minute I thought you loved a challenge....why That's what I love the most the challenge...

What about you HNT?

Silly...wabbit...tricks are for kids!

Rinderella,

Thank you for your reply! There a few people I try to follow on MB that I feel are in very similar situations as I. You are one of them. D-days are very close together.

I know that there are many others aside from LA that give great support. I did not mean to imply that LA was the only one. It's just that sometimes when I don't understand where the help is coming from, I perceive it as very condescending and it has never been that way with LA. That is why I summoned her figuring that she may be able to use her way to help me understand.

I know that asking if SF counts sounds like a funny question. I meant it in the context that I would say to BF "We haven't been spending our undivided attention time together." and he would respond with "We had SF twice yesterday". That is kinda what I mean. If it happens spontaneously instead of at the scheduled undivided attention time, does it still count toward the 15-20hrs? I guess it is neither here nor there. We should be spending the time together anyway.

As far as AO, unfortunately, my poor daughter gets the most of it in the mornings. She is very needy at that time and I just want to be left alone for awhile and wake up. Shouting is very normal in my family. Everyone yells at eachother all the time and it rolls right off of us. We are just loud people. Raising my voice brings back very bad feelings for my BF from his childhood. So, it really gets to him when I am impatient with our daughter. When she gets to me, I try to just ask him to deal with her. I feel this is best until I can learn to better control my temper.



No, I haven't. I don't even know what that means. Can you explain?

Thanks again.

AmIok,

Yes, alot of times LA's posts go right over my head and end up being more confused after I read it than I was before. I am starting to see it more clearly. Often times have to read them several times but am starting to get it.

LA is one of my favorites too. It had been awhile since I got a good dose of LA and that's why I needed that kind of support and asked for that specifically.

I certainly welcome anything I can get as long as it is not hurtful. I appreciate all the help I have received here.

Of course, magic wand answers would've been fantastic! I was just really looking for any answers at all. Then it was just up to me to try to understand them.

Thanks for responding!

Hi all!

The subject pretty much says it all. I've been asked several times if I have a plan and what it is. The answer is NO! I don't have a plan. I don't even know what a plan for recovery should look like. I'm going to try to search to find some guidance, but if anyone can help or point me in the right direction of some threads that could help, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to all!

P.S. 32 days NC! Yay!

Here was my plan for recovery...

First, my goal...to save my marriage...

NC...took three months to get to complete NC...

Even during contact, began MC and MC/IC...was reading books from the library, all of Harley's stuff...included Codependent No More, Dance of Anger, and John Bradshaw's books...for my own personal recovery.

Goal: To eliminate LBs, understand and meet my own ENs and my WH's...because of how I chose to love and who I really was...

After withdrawal, began communication exercises, twice a week...making and keeping 15 hours of UA, including RC time together...non-R talk attention and sharing...kept reading on MB...

Goal: Keep focus on what I control and do not get lost in what I can't...break my enmeshment, increase my awareness...practice being, not always doing...or judging.

Is that a plan, HNT? I don't know...didn't have details...kept reading threads and books, what stuck became my plan...made my marriage top priority for the first time in my life...not children...and kept recovering me as a huge part of recovering the marriage...okay, half of it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just eliminating LBs had to have a plan for it...first, understand them, identify mine, increase my awareness, committ to not doing them (revoking permission), and learn healthy expression of what was my own...instead of acting out, or acting in...the only ways I knew before.

Here's something I learned recently...

Know the difference between hurtful and painful...

To be hurtful, you say or do things you know will hurt another person.

To feel pain, we must determine if the person was being intentionally hurtful or our own stuff made what they said or did FEEL painful to us...and know when we are choosing to be hurtful and own it...and when we are not, do not back off from being truthful, though our partner may experience pain.

I have seen no one on your thread be hurtful.

I believe you have experienced pain, feeling judged, as if you're being told you're wrong...when others have questioned you on your beliefs...challenged you to rethink what you belief...examine and either own or adopt a new way of believing...this would be a painful experience...not hurtful.

Like the magic wand...faster, easier and fixed...is DESTRUCTIVE...learning to want the slow, manual, delayed gratification way is the key to living a healthy, balanced life...in reality...full of real freedom and responsible...our wishfulness can really mess it up...because we've trained ourselves to think magically, and as adults, then we can't earn our self-respect, esteem...we wait to be fixed, externally...to live up to others, not with them.

I'm rambling. It's lunch. It happens.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thanks LA!

Everyone keeps talking about getting a plan. I'm not really sure what that means exactly. I know what I want(my goals).
I have some ideas on how to acheive them, avoid LB's, meeting ENs (mine and his), POJA, etc.. Stuff I'm learning here. I read books most of Harley's (not all yet) and some other books, come to MB, working on me. I have asked BF for help on his ENs and he hasn't yet. I don't know if I should ask him again.

My concern is that I am learning all of this stuff to help myself and our relationship. He isn't. I'm not really sure how great things can be if I'm learning and growing and he isn't. I know not to educate or anything. I almost feel like he doesn't care. Like he wants me to make all the changes and somehow make everything work by myself. These are just my feelings but I'm afraid that unless he does something to work on himself and our relationship, I'm going to get very frustrated. I know that these are my feelings. I'm owning them. It would just be a shame if we grew apart because of something like that after all this.

I don't know if I have much of a plan. I think that there are very few, if anyone that has posted their "plan". I'm going to keep searching.

Things have been going ok, I guess. Nothing spectacular.
I still need a plan for recovery. I have been reading "Give and Take".

BF keeps saying he needs to go back to therapy. He stopped because his medical insurance stopped. He's a big ball of mystery to me. His IC told him that he doesn't like women. Not that he's gay or anything but that he's never had a healthy relationship. All of his relationships to this point have all been abusive in some form or another. Mine
have too. He's also said that he has never really experienced true love. He doesn't know how. He doesn't know what it means or how to give it or receive it. I guess this is part of why he needs to go back.

I encourage that. I have concerns. I know him as a surface person. But under the surface he is a stranger to me. He doesn't let me in. He's doesn't let anyone in and he doesn't let anyone out. For our entire relationship to this point I have never really known him. Not deep down. I have bounced around the three states of marriage, Intimacy, Conflict and Withdrawal. He's mostly stayed in withdrawal. He's almost never in conflict. I think that sometimes he tries to get to Intimacy but gets afraid and hurries back to withdrawal. I try to spend alot of my time in Intimacy. But I get tired of waiting for him to show up because he rarely does and go back to Conflict and sometimes withdrawal.

I really do love him. I would not like to live the rest of my life trying to get close to someone who's unable or unwilling, not sure which, to get close to me.
His IC gave him an estimated plan for 18-24 mos. That means I may be waiting two years for him to figure out his stuff to be able to open up to me. That on top of another 2 years to recover from infidelity and the fact that I have been with him for 6 yrs and still don't know him intimately. My current struggle to be brutally honest is that it could take 5-6 yrs to get where I would like to be in a relationship with him. Truth be told, I don't know whether or not that will be worth it. I don't know him. Not the REAL him, the one deep down inside that he doesn't share with me.

So, if I don't think it will be worth it, then don't be with him. Well, I'm torn. If it is worth it we will live happily ever after. If it isn't, then we both wasted another who knows how many years just to see. I know he can be everything I've ever dreamed of. I've seen that part of him peek out every once in a blue moon. The other end of it is that I am ready for things that he isn't. I want that Intimacy and falling in love. He's not ready for that yet. What am I supposed to do until he is? Whenever I feel close to "falling in love" with him I pull away. I'm afraid to be there alone.

I don't know what I'm expecting from this post. If anyone has any imput or encouragement, advice, anything. Please share it with me. I also still need to put together a plan for recovery. Thanks for reading.

P.S. When does it change from WBF to FWBF?

bump

HNT,

Intimacy was the issue in our marriage. DH's fear of intimacy was very much how you described...well put.

Those 18-24 mos are important...and the are concurrent with recovery in my case. We have until December to decide whether or not to stay together. That's our two-year mark from H's decision to work on the marriage.

Btw, it's radically honest, not brutal. There's an important difference.

This is the man you chose to be the father of your child. Two years out of how many decades involving that child?

And your own issues...how long until you fully understand and know your own fear of abandonment and intimacy? You may feel you are mostly in intimacy...most love addicts have the obvious fear (we're really in touch with it) of abandonment and do not realize that under our obvious fear is fear of intimacy. Takes more work to get to that fear than the abandonment one.

Love avoidants, like my DH, deal with their fear of intimacy--it's obvious to them. They often feel engulfed, consumed or smothered...takes longer to get their fear of abandonment, just as important and lifelong, underneath.

It's a balance I learned in "Facing Love Addiction" to know our fears were the same, though flipped...and to become aware of my reactions to those two fears...some obvious and others, subtle to get to a place to make a decision about my marriage, my life.

FWBF earn their F's...they can simply state why they chose to have an affair, why they will not make that choice again, and to be radically honest and help in healing the relationship. They own their stuff.

Takes time to get through withdrawal, work on the resentments which hardened into entitlement and to choose to inject respect into their lives.

How do you know he can be everything you ever dreamed of? Why would he, a human, be capable of being a fantasy?

IC would be great for both you, I believe. That's what you can do while you wait to decide your future...it comes while you're working in your present.

Are you both working now? What are you reading? Is the plan in SAA not what you want for recovery?

LA

LA,

Thank you for your response! While I'm sorry that intimacy was an issue for you, I'm glad that you have some experience with this.

We have not put a time limit on working on our relationship such as a two-year mark to decide to stay together. I guess we're just going to stay together forever if things get great or until one or both of us decides it won't work.



At first I was confused about this comment. I looked back at my post and I realized that it looked like I meant something different. I think you thought I meant that I have a problem with radical honesty. Is that what you thought? I was saying that I was being brutally honest on my post with regard to my impatience. I know the difference. But thank you.

Yes, he is the man I chose to be the father of my child. I'm not sure what that has anything to do with it. I don't believe in being in an unhappy relationship for the sake of children. That is beside the point. No, I would have absolutely no problem waiting 2 years or even 5 or 6 years for that matter if I knew at the end of that time I was going to have a happy, healthy marriage. No one has a crystal ball. It's a huge gamble. Either win big or lose alot. I'm afraid that uncertainty for the next few years will be unbearable. There is no guarantee that the wait will be worth it. If it is, a few years over a lifetime will be nothing. If it isn't, not only will we have wasted the 6 years we've already been together, but the next years that it will take just to find out.

Prior to the A, WBF had always said that that was just the way he was. I wasn't ecstatic about it but accepted it. Since D-day, it has come out that he has many many issues. Some related to me and past relationships, some not. Now that I know that it isn't just the way he is, I am dying to know how he really is. Who he really is. The person that look at and interact with everyday is a cover up for everything inside that I don't know. A huge ball of mystery. It's like the A opened Pandora's Box but I only get tidbits and vague information. I can't even fathom why someone would want to be in a relationship and keep themselves so closed up. What is the point? If you are afraid to share yourself, why be in a relationship? What is he getting out of it?

I do realize I have a fear of abandonment. I have always had that because of my DPD. I was always afraid of being alone. I was never afraid of that with WBF until the A. Because until that point, I really believed that he would never leave me. And still, I wasn't afraid of him leaving until it actually happened. Prior to that, I felt I would be okay if he did. Maybe even better off. In fact, I would threaten to leave quite often which definitely contributed to the problem. And I'm sure contributed to his fear of abandonment.

As for a fear of intimacy, of course I have some fears. I'm afraid of being hurt. I think that anyone who's experienced infidelity would have that fear. The other part is that I'm afraid of being vulnerable to someone who's not vunerable to me. I'm afraid of letting someone experience all of me. Every crack and crevice. Every fault and imperfection. All the love in my heart. Everything that is me. That is terrifying to share, especially when the person you are sharing it with is not allowing you to fully experience them.

It's like sharing secrets. You feel safer sharing a secret with someone if they also share a secret with you. They are less likely to use it against you. You form a bond. You know something that no one else knows and so do they. Those secrets connect you. The same with intimacy. If you tell someone a secret and they don't tell you one, you are more vunerable to them exposing your secret or using it against you. That's where the fear comes in.

So, I do have a fear of intimacy, but I am ususally willing to risk it. I yearn for intimacy to such a degree that I am willing to risk being hurt in the process. It's a gamble, but if it works the payoff is huge. I try to express intimacy with the hope of the other person following my lead and joining me in the experience. That has almost never worked with WBF. Most of the time I don't even get enough leg room to try it. He keeps the door closed so tight that not even light can escape. And there is only so much I'm willing to give up without getting anything back.

The only time that I can get a crumb of intimacy is when he is intoxicated. Because of this, I sometimes enjoy him when he is drinking but I decided that that was the only good that would come of it and didn't want to be in a relationship where the only happiness I could find is when he is drunk. I have asked him to stop drinking. He said he would consider it and hasn't responded since. He didn't drink with his brother on Saturday like he usually does but I don't know if that was because of my request or because he just didn't get a hold of his brother. I guess we will see what happens this weekend.

I'm not sure about the part about becoming aware of your reactions to those two fears and what to do about them. I will try to get that book but could you explain a little more?

I know that things don't change over night. It takes time. But what infuriates me is that it doesn't seem like an effort is being made. It's like when I see a road closed for 2 years for constuction but I never see anyone working on it. Maybe if they spent a little more time working on it, it wouldn't take 2 years.

How do I know he can be everything I ever dreamed of? Because every now and then I see it in him. WBF - infidelity - LBs + meeting ENs + rules of marriage + intimacy = man of my dreams. Not perfect. Very human. Flaws, blemishes, imperfections, everything human. Is that fantasy? Is that expecting too much?

I agree that IC is a good idea for both and maybe even MC later. IC probably isn't going to happen for me for awhile. I wasn't getting what I was looking for with free IC. I guess you get what you pay for. Impoverished without medical. It will have to wait. Besides that, IC sessions take up one hour per week. What do I do with the other 167 hrs. for the next few years. It's killing me wanting to be close to him and not being able to get there.

We are both doing a little temporary side job for right now. WBF starts a job next week. Will take a while for money to start coming in.

I'm reading "Give & Take" right now. The plan in SAA is fine. WBF's idea of reading it is picking it up and reading 1 or 2 pages every now and then when I complain he isn't doing anything. I feel like our relationship isn't a priority to him. I think we are doing ok with the plan in SAA. Nothing bad is happening but not a whole lot of good is happening either. Nothing is really happening at all. It is so bland. I hate that.

I might look like I'm harping, HNT...not my intent.

"I was saying that I was being brutally honest on my post with regard to my impatience. I know the difference. But thank you."

Being brutally honest about yourself...would be an act of self-abasement...being brutal to self...and self didn't deserve that. I believe you were being intimate...radically honest about your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...which is celebrating self.

I found part of my fear (a LARGE part) of abandonment was that I did just this to my self...abandoned self...my true self, as God created me, is marvelous and whole...not deserving of punishment, brutality or abandonment. No one is. Not their selves. People are left due to separate choices, not selves. I left my self behind long ago...created a false self, one I carefully crafted through my beliefs and knowledge to be sure to GET to be loved.

That's self-deception. That says my self wasn't lovable...heck, already loved! Ouch. My self-image imprisoned me in patterns and cycles...my real self can't.

Learning this is how you stop being DPD...because you learned DPD...you're not born with it. Honest. Your choice what you believe...that's how you choose your life...through your beliefs. You, too, are whole and marvelously made...no fear in being alone when you celebrate and accept your authentic self entirely...and share it.

I'm glad I had intimacy issues...and abandonment issues...they help clarify my thoughts and life...knowing what I fear...and like FDR said...what we fear most is fear itself...gives me insight into why I feel what I feel, and no longer choose to react to what I feel, but to act.

Who you choose to be the father of your child has life-long ramifications. That's what I was going for...because you are indelibly linked to one another through your child.

I don't think of that as a relationship sentence...just acknowledging that reality fully. I do know from my experience that by saving my marriage I was benefiting myself and my children. I was miserable before the A and had asked him to leave...he didn't go. I was actively living in a miserable relationship...and only because of how much worse it got did I realize how much of the misery I was creating and why...and stopped my part.

That halved the misery right there.

There is no gamble in commitment, HNT, that I can see. I have a goal and a plan, and I act on my plan...because of this, I don't need the guarantee, the crystal ball...each day I am living the life of my choosing and experience it positively because of that. There are days when I do not experience it positively...and I know that's just a day...and I recheck my priority, which is my marriage...and choose to be married the next day, too.

I've never been happier in my life...less fearful...grateful...fulfilled and rewarded.

As for intimacy, I am being as fully intimate with my DH as I know how to right now...and so is he to me. Is it even, balanced, tit for tat? No way. Am I okay with that? Absolutely. I focus on my part...what I control...and appreciate how much my DH shares without measuring how much. It varies...and I've been surprised at how much I still don't know about him...which helps me continue to see him new...and scares me, too.

My fear. I deal with it. Not his doing.

I don't hold him to my standards...whatever he gets out of this marriage is his...I choose to believe he's fully in it...no place he'd rather be. Marriage as his number one priority fluctuates...up and down from the top...it slips...and it rises...not within my control. Not necessary for my happiness.

Fear is ever present...I believe it rises up when you choose to perceive telling a secret and not knowing one in exchange...doesn't make it, in reality, any different. Two separate and equal humans remain...real power remains exactly where it was before the secret was shared...we only control ourselves...allow or disallow influence...unless you choose to constantly judge your life and live from that ever present fear, then there is no giving to get, is there?

If you continue to stay intimate with your intent to share who you really are...without wanting another to share equally also...then you are being true and authentic to your self...which is fulfilling and worthy. Let go the response...you don't have control over it. Change your intent to be firmly entrenched in reality...share without banking on the return.

It models meeting ENs from your choice to love rather than meeting ENs to get your ENs met. Usually when you ground yourself in this reality--that you are choosing to love--you then will experience love abundantly.

Why his room may be closed so tightly...common experience...if what he has to share will be judged, it's too dangerous...if he chooses to believe that sharing who he is will give you fodder to leave him, reject him or attempt to change him, then why do it? If his childhood experience taught him that women encroach, take over, consume who he really is if he speaks of who he is...then that's emotional suicide, isn't it? The more you scratch to get in, give to get...the more pressure he may feel and believe that his fears are based in reality, the present, instead of echoes from his past.

Another reason to take your focus off of him and work on yourself...you're doing that here...and I believe your focus is on you and it slips to him...in his post. Like a magnet. I've been there, lived that.

I'm only seeing this...my truth...maybe because it was the biggest struggle for me to control my own darn focus.

Each time your WBF chooses not to drink it is because he chooses not to drink. That's the reality. What was behind his choice is unknown. Stay respectful, don't guess, don't mess with your own emotions that way until you really know what beliefs your emotions are coming from and know the information they contain.

You judge things which are not yours...by choosing to judge you can trap yourself in false emotions...if you choose to believe he is not working on the relationship, then you will experience disappointment, greater fear, uncertainty, resentment and pain...whether or not, in reality, he is working on it or not.

I am asking you not to self-delude, but to know as much about what you don't really know as you know about what you really do.

Great analogy to the road construction...now, what if all day tomorrow, you committed yourself to being aware of how many judgments you make in one day...random ones, about the road crew, yourself, WBF, your child...cleaning products and television shows...all of them. Catch as many as you can and write them down.

The day after, look at that list and see what you judged that you assumed, or was conjecture...what was real knowledge, and all that you don't know...a truth assessment exercise. Inside and out.

You're awesome at being aware of your feelings...notice your feelings before you begin the exercise, at the end of the day, and before you assess your list and after...

My DH did not read SAA, HNHN, LBs...nothing. He's fully invested in our marriage and recovery. I hurt, monitored, prayed and begged inside myself for him to read what I was reading...part of my love addiction...until I made a mantra to myself "We each find our own way." Mine is not the only one...I proffer it because it is all I know and have. My DH's way is his own. That was a crucial part of his avoidance addiction...my way or the highway (make me happy or suffer the consequences)...and this mantra helped to save my marriage...and it continues to help us grow closer, respectfully, safely and I believe, it comes from my choice to believe what I could not see or measure...and refused to measure...which was another human being.

I want to share with you that I perceive something that may well be in your marriage...you want assurances, which are given in the way you want them, when you want them and in a way you will automatically believe in them. I find posting to you at times difficult because this is my perception...not your reality. If your WBF experiences this...then his love, actions, choices may feel to him like he can never be enough. You holding him to your standards is unbearable and so, why try at all?

I choose to understand this perception in myself, know it's my own, my truth, not THE truth...and post anyway. Why would you choose to think he won't choose that when he no longer is paralyzed with the fear of failing you and himself...?

I've learned I can fail spectacularly, and be loved anyway.

Why I'm here, posting to you, HNT. I don't do future stuff...only right now. I choose only right now because I was exceedingly manipulative...my own wolf in sheep's clothing...and I chose not to act manipulatively. I choose to act respectfully. That's my premise now. I will not write you something to get you to choose to do or think a certain way...we each find our own way. You are as capable, whole as I am...equal.

Judgment words I learned to highlight audibly:

Good, bad, better, worse, happier, sadder, angrier...(and there's a slew more, but just eradicating good and bad out of my language was really difficult...even now.)

Look to your words...killing you, hate this or that; either win big or lose a lot...I challenge these words, these self-perceptions...because every moment I am fulfilled...that would be a big win, maybe...and I believe I only experience this now because I no longer live in extremes.

LA

WARNING! THIS POST CONTAINS GRAPHIC MATERIAL! VIEWER DISCRESTION IS ADVISED!

WBF and I had a very rough night. Still going for me as I have not slept.

The other day, I read a thread about mental images of WS's sexual encounters with OP. I have had a problem about images myself. In the thread, BSs were talking about how they knew very gory details about their WSs sexcapades. Because I didn't know all of the graphic details of the SF, my imagination went wild, filling in the pieces I didn't know.
I had wanted to know the details but was afraid to ask.

After reading that thread, I thought that maybe knowing all the details would help me stop playing fill in the blanks and maybe then I would be able to stop or even just subdue the images in my mind. So, I wrote WBF a letter explaining what was happening and asked that he write back a very detailed description of the events that took place during SF. I asked him very specific questions that I wondered about everyday. I asked him to write it for a few reasons. One, I felt it might be less painful if I didn't hear the words coming from his mouth. Two, if it got to a point where I couldn't take anymore I could stop and go back at a time when I was feeling stronger. Three, I could have it to look at repeatedly if there was something I missed instead of having him repeat it over and over.

I gave WBF the letter and he said that he wasn't going to do it and that he thought I was sick. He said that he had already told me enough and that I didn't need to know anymore. Eventually agreed to it but said he didn't want to do it because he didn't want to hurt me anymore and he didn't want to feel shame. Last night, he wrote it. Up until now he had said that it wasn't very good, very awkward and uncomfortable and completely lacked any intimacy and affection. Because of these statements, I thought that the things I would make up in my head had to be much worse than what actually happened. Boy, was I wrong!

The sex, the OW, and pretty much everything about the experience was great! The only complaint that he had was that there was no intimacy or affection. Not much of a complaint at all as far as I'm concerned as those things very rarely take place between us during SF. It was far worse than I had hoped. He described in very graphic detail (as I had asked) exactly what happened, how it happened, what he liked, how he felt, how she made him feel, etc... He even described what she looked like nude, her genitalia, the way she moved, what positions, etc...

Okay, so I think that it served its purpose. I don't think I will have the mental images as much and if I do, I won't have to fill in the blanks. I feel better knowing what happened as he experienced it. Unfortunately, a huge side effect that I neglected to take into consideration was that it caused HUGE insecurities with myself sexually and my body. So much so that I no longer want to have SF or even let him see me naked anymore. It's not that I don't want SF, I did even right after I read it. My insecurities won't let me. Like I am willing to punish myself for not being as good (I know that's a DJ) as OW. I am ashamed and embarrassed of myself. I know I shouldn't compare myself to OW. She is EVERYTHING I'm not and to WBF it was all "great". I feel like, "How can I compete with that?" I can't. So, why even make a fool out of myself trying?

I don't want to punish WBF for doing what I requested. I am not angry with him for that. There is nothing special between us. Nothing sacred sexually. The only thing they didn't do was OS and manual stimulation. HJs and BJs are what my sex life is reduced to. And those are only for him. I'm not going to let him touch me. That isn't very exciting.

I know that he didn't make me feel insecure. I created those feelings. They are mine. What can I do about this? Is there a way for WBF to help me?

Hang,

Listen if you can take away a postive here is that he is willing to be completely honest with you.

To me honesty is the foundation of a good relationship.

I am three years after the fact and my FWW has not even told me how many times she had SF with the OM. HMM what do you think my trust level is?

So you have these images sooner or later they may go away. I look at it like a scary movie. For the first few nights or weeks you can't sleep thinking the slasher is coming after you. Then every other night until it starts to disapate into history.

I hope this helps.

Listen there is nothing to be insecure about either. You should not compare yourself to anyother woman. You are you and that is who he wants to be with.

I know I don't look the way I did when we got married nor does my FWW. So if we are judging each other by outside people that is wrong.

Hurtingless,

Thank you very much for your response. I feel I need alot of support at this time.

I am very grateful about his honesty. I'm not sure whether or not I was better off knowing nothing. Would've been great not knowing about SF at all. If it wasn't for them darn STD's, I may still not know. I'm sure that isn't true.
honesty is very important and I value his honesty. I just wish I'd been more prepared for the harshness of it before I asked for it.

I'm am no longer concerned about the images. It wasn't so much the images that bothered me, but the unknown and the filling in the pieces that got to me. Even if the images still exist, I can deal with them knowing the truth of exactly what happened. That was my purpose for asking.

I know I shouldn't compare myself to anyone. I just don't know how not to. Of course, I have to wonder if HE is comparing us sexually. I know who wins that battle and it isn't me. He explains how "great" she was and I get, "There were times with us (him and I) when the sex was bad, but for the most part are sex life has been okay." She gets "great" and I get "okay". How do I not feel inadequate about that?

It isn't so much the physical attractiveness as I already knew what she looked like. I could use my imagination for that. Although, my lack thereof does play a considerable role. It's the sex that really gets to me. I feel like my sex life with WBF is completely ruined.

Yes, he does want to be with me although I'm not sure why. He has said it's because we have history together and potential. I don't know what all that means but I don't want to live my life like this.

I need to change my perception of things. I just don't know how.

Thanks again.

Well they actually say a PA is more damaging to a man's ego and a EA is more damaging to a womens. Don't know if it is true or not.

I can say I wish my FWW would be that forthcoming with me. I don't want to gory details though.

Every single thing I have asked for is like a gaurded secret. We are in MC now so we will see how it goes. I can say because of her refusal to tell the truth it has really hurt the trust I have for her.

Imagine having less trust now then you did after D Day. That is tough to deal with.

At least you have someone that is willing to be as honest as you want him to be.

Transparency is very important.

BTW. Sex with a mistress or an A partner is always great even if it is not better then what you get at home.

It is like going out to eat. Sure I could have made that pasta dish better but I have no responsiblity to clear the table and clean up the mess. Makes it a whole lot more enjoyable. Plus there is that forbidden aspect to it as well.

So I wouldn't take to much out of it being great.

I have to say he wasn't willing to jump at the opportunity. I kinda had to fight with him a little. He was very honest, yes. I wouldn't go so far as to call him transparent.

I don't know where WSs get off thinking they have a right to privacy with their As. I hope that MC will help open your wife up.

I am starting to trust him more. I am just completely lacking confidence in myself.

The worst part is that I have been thinking alot about having an A lately. I don't REALLY want to and am sure I won't. I just don't think it is fair that they get excitement and intimacy and great sex and all we get is pain and suffering. I want excitement and intimacy and great sex and admiration.

Good anology. I completely understand what you mean. I'm going to have to live with a man whose memory of the OW is great sex and all the other great things that went along with it for the rest of my life. Not to mention the emotional aspects of it. I can't measure up to any of that. Never will.

He isn't with me instead of her because I'm better. He's with me because she screwed him over and he doesn't want to be alone. I would bet that if she hadn't betrayed him, he would still be having his "great" A. Except now it wouldn't be an A.

Nothing about any of this makes me feel good. Makes me feel confident.