Your post made me smile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's a link to help you decipher the abbreviations around here...
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=000557

I am good at doing that from time to time. If I can make one person smile a day, I guess it wasn't a total loss. I spoke with Dr. Harley tonight, and he said he uses my situation from time to time on his radio show to try and help others. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
He also says he hopes things turn out the way I hope so he can illustrate the value perseverance in a new book someday. Wouldn't that be cool!

Ok, now I really want to read about your sitch.

Point me in the right direction, please. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> (Got a link?)

~ Marsh

str8,

Thanks. I've never heard that song before. A good one though. Yes, pretty much the only outlet. All my family and friends are over hearing and talking about it and pretty much will tell me to get over it too. I'm finding that I mostly have surface relationships with everyone. Much of this is way too deep for them. Maybe a fear of intimacy and letting people really know me. WBF will talk and listen but doesn't really like to. I will have to find your thread and read the sitch. Thank you.

LA,

First, I want to say that I started reading the thread. Slick50 and slimjim about validation? Is that the right one? Didn't finish yet, it's a long one. I went to the links posted about narcisscism. Do you think I'm narcisscistic? I think that some of the things are me, dead on. I definitely think I lack the superiority complex. Think I have an inferiority complex. Not exactly sure what you were getting at there. Can you please help me out?

About the falling in love, I'm just not getting some stuff still. For example, I can say to myself "WBF will fall in love with me again" and believe it. Doesn't mean he will. Or I can choose to believe that he is in love with me. Doesn't mean he is. My guess of what you might say to this would probably be "If you believe that he is or will, it doesn't matter what he believes." Am I right? Was that a DJ? If so, I apologize. GRRR, not getting it right now. It's not that I'm just not feeling it. He's not feeling it. He says so. Should all of this not matter to me? Not making sense right now.

The parts about narcisscism that describe me perfectly is that I live and believe about myself based on what others think about me. This is HUGE and I don't know how to stop it. I have mentally racked up over $100,000 of cosmetic surgery I want to have to become as close to perfect for WBF as possible. Yes, for WBF, not me. Sounds ridiculous to me from an outside view. I rationalize to myself as if WBF (or anyone else) likes me better, than I will feel better about myself because I will feel more accepted. Messed up, huh? WBF has never asked me to do anything. But he doesn't say that I shouldn't either. He said that if I lost 60 pounds that he would pay for a tummy tuck. Things that I said I want, and get encouragement from WBF. Just feel unaccepted, unloved the way that I am. Been much worse since "details" letter. Scruntinizing myself to the point where I now want surgery on my genitalia even. Says he loves me and accepts me the way I am, but has no qualms about me wanting to change myself completely.

Ahh, the "details" letter. I still don't know if I should've asked for that. I read it every so often, trying to desensitize myself. Been having alot of ups and downs lately. Just trying to act on my love for WBF and letting the chips fall. I really need help. Not going back to free IC. Waste of time and energy. This journey of self-discovery is interesting but it's opening Pandora's Box of how screwed up I am.

We discussed more children yesterday, as I've been considering so much surgery that it wouldn't make sense if I was going to have more children. He said that if we were going to, he wants it to be by the time he is 40 (a little over 2 years). Discussed having to be prepared financially (it's going to cost alot and we are damn near homeless right now) and emotionally. Still no mention of getting married. I'll be damned if I'm having any more children without being married. Now, I feel like I only have maximum 2 years to fall in love, get married and have another child, not to mention be financially and emotionally stable. All seems so meaningless. Why would he consider having more children with me if he's not even in love with me, yet? If it takes like 2 years for recovery, then it seems that it would be a considerable amount of time before we were at the point of doing these things and now there's a 2 year time limit. So, frustrating.

HNT,

I guess I was showing you how closely the narcisscist profile fit me really well...not a label for life...just a label for behaviors coming from certain beliefs...that to be loved, we must earn it...work hard to get ourselves reflected back to us from others...as the only way to be loved.

I already knew that my inferiority complex was from the same source as my DH's grandiosity complex (superiority)...same self-disownership...looks different...still the same. Interestingly, the line blurs between them for me, because I was proud of not believing I was superior...felt safe continually seeing myself as inferior because I was told to fear pride (goes before a fall and one of seven deadly sins), so I did the opposite, to be safe...felt pretty darn smart, too, about it...smarter than most.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

See where that kind of believing gets you?

I share this with you to show how closely what you've identified in yourself, I had, also...coming from my earliest beliefs...which, as an adult, I've finally discovered are not what I choose to believe...Approval does not mean survival or validation anymore...except my own. My DH's influence is accepted by me, and I consider him in my choice of actions...only I consider myself as well.

This thing about WBF in love or not...let me ask you...for right now, he doesn't feel in love with you. You are acting from your choice to love...acting lovingly, letting the chips fall...which is being true to yourself, WBF and the relationship...why not wait and see how WBF feels? And if it is not in your control to make him fall in love with you, then when he does again, you will know it is a gift...not something you earn...his stuff...feelings...or his chosen to belief to love you, whether he feels love or not.

Is Attractive Spouse WBF's #1 EN? Is that why you consider all the perfection physical stuff? Sounds to me like he loves you without change...maybe his concern about the sixty pounds isn't visual, but health concerns?

Big difference in your ages here...his perspective, his concerns, may be very different from yours...getting clarity on what you value, accept and love about yourself and what he does...seeing them as different...sounds important to me.

HUGE kudos on not having more children without being married. That's a boundary you drew around yourself. Live it. Do not be afraid to know what you want and make it your goal...

I still advise you to use the free counseling available to you...if you don't devalue and judge it, use it to ask for specifically what you want to work on (asserting yourself is healthy), then there is no harm in it...is there?

All avenues to help you out...helping yourself is great self-care...Would you like to stop living through others? Find your own marvelous self inside, whole and complete...always has been...and stop living a manipulative life? You can. I did. I am much older than you...and you're already on that path!!! Way ahead...give yourself compliments (authentic) for being who you are, HNT...you're worth it.

LA

P.S. About Str8's song lyrics...I hear a lot of great music on KLOVE...which is a nationally syndicated radio station, no commercials, Christian Rock...you can hear some at www.klove.com...more great self-care in there, I promise.

Having children, is a stress to a *good* marriage.
he isnt even talking about marriage, and your relationship is on the rocks. He's being totally unreasonable/stupid/ignorant, by making demands about "children before he is 40".

When did he ever demonstrate that he is capable of being a good, patient, supportive, forgiving parent himself?

if he hasnt done this, he has no right to demand children from anyone.

Sounds like he wants to feel like an adult, without actually growing up. he's 40, going on 20.

Here it is Marsh...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3101847

LA,

I have to wait and see how WBF feels. Either that or end the relationship and I'm not even considering that option. I love him and I know he loves me. Even now, our relationship has drastically improved from pre-A conditions. My fear is that I'll wait and wait and act on the love I have for him and he will just perpetually be in this "I love you but I'm not in love with you" phase. This may be my skewed perception but I don't want to live my entire life with someone who barely loves me (romantically). I feel like in doing so, I may be cheating myself out of the opportunity to have the wonderful feeling of someone else being in love with me also. There's my narcisscistic beliefs and my sense of entitlement talking. What I'm getting at is I feel there has to be a point where I say, "This just isn't going to happen and am I willing to live the rest of my life feeling unaccepted and unloveable?" and then reassess the situation.

My hope is that it will not come to this but my fear is that it will. There is no way of knowing right now, so I'm trying not to dwell on it. It's the rejection of being in love with someone who is not in love with you. It's painful. I just can't get out of the mindset of if I could just improve myself physically, sexually, domestically, romantically, etc...that might speed up the process. Earning love. Even MB principles encourage this to a degree. Isn't that what plan Aing really is? Doing and avoiding things to make yourself more attractive to your spouse. By avoiding LBs and meeting your spouses ENs, aren't you essentially giving to get? Treating others as you would like to be treated? Don't we do these things not just for the sake of giving love, respect, acceptance, but in hopes of getting the same in return? Otherwise, wouldn't it be acceptable for us to do these things and our spouses continue on in A's? We are doing our parts and that's all that matters. If that were the case there wouldn't be much of a need for Plan B, would there? Because at some point we expect some degree of reciprocation. If there is none, we have to protect ourselves from being hurt and disconnect from the situation.

Yes, we are also doing these things for ourselves. I can love and respect and accept myself and others to pieces. That doesn't mean that they will follow suit. There is ALOT that I can do for me that can have absolutely no effect on how others (WBF specifically) feel for me. WBF improving himself in ways that I have no interest would not make him more appealing to me. Thus, I feel the need and the desire to improve myself in ways that are of interest to WBF. To make myself more appealing to him.

No, physical attractiveness isn't WBF's #1 EN. Actually, it isn't even in the top 5. If he said to me, "I love you just the way you are, please don't change anything" I would probably not have any desire to. Or at least not as much desire to improve as many things or as much. He used to tell me that he loved me the way I was and not to change anything. After 8 pregnancies (2 childbirths), I am certainly not what I used to be. Neither is he, but I am still very attracted to him physically. However, his health IS a major concern and that would be the only reason I would like him to loose weight (also quit drinking, smoking, eating unhealthy). His father had a heart attack at 39. If his health wasn't at stake I would be perfectly elated at him physically. While I'm sure that my health is also a concern for him (as it is me), I don't think that is the main reason for him "supporting" me with all of these physical changes. A tummy tuck isn't necessary for me to be healthy. Either is a breast augmentation, vaginoplasty, lyposuction, rhinoplasty, UV laser therapy for psoriasis, porcelain veneers or colored contacts (I have perfect vision). I have made him aware of my desire for all of this and he has never once objected to any of it.

My first reaction is, "Yeah, then he'll think I'm hot". But then my second reaction is "Wait. I'm telling him that I want change myself to be completely different physically and he's ok with this." Now, he has mentioned some very subtle things that he wants to do (cosmetic surgery wise) and I don't really want him to. Because......drum roll please.....I love him just the way he is and I don't want him to change anything.

Alot of this desire to change has come about or has increased significantly since his A and the "details" letter. See, I knew the OW was very attractive although not something I ever thought WBF would be interested in. That's what I get for thinking. I was hoping that unclothed, it was a train wreck. 42 yr old mother of 5, I was hoping for the worst. That's what I get for hoping. Not only did he explain how unbelievably attractive she was/is (both clothed and not) but all the ways, reasons and things about her that was/is attractive. All the ways she turned him on physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally. For example, because she was so thin and attractive...more things that turned him on. And so on and so on. I waited until (at least I was pretty sure) he was out of the fog to ask for the "details" letter so I could get as much of the reality out of his perception as possible. He talked about her in ways I had never heard him describe his attraction to anyone before, especially me. Not only was it a tremendous and exciting turn on BECAUSE she was/is so attractive but also a HUGE ego boost.

I want to be a HUGE turn on. I want to be a HUGE ego boost. Even when I was an ego boost when we first met and I was 18 and much much more attractive than now, I still didn't compare to that. He also talks alot about how I used to be. How he wishes that he could have "the old" me again. Not just physically, everything. I've grown up a little, I've changed. He wants be to be like I used to be. I don't know that I want to be. I'm not even sure what he means exactly. Whatever.

Anyways," I still advise you to use the free counseling available to you...use it to ask for specifically what you want to work on " That's the thing. I would explain what I would like to work on and she would basically say that I don't need to work on that and go off in her own direction. It was very awkward and uncomfortable. I did 99.9% of the talking. Almost like talking to myself for an hour. I can do that without her. I DO do that without her. LOL...shhh, don't tell anyone.

Geez, I drive myself crazy.

Techie,

Thanks for the response. I just want to clarify that he isn't making any demands about children. I'm the one who wants more children. He's saying that IF we are going to have more, that he wants them by 40. He is a VERY good father to our DD. Much better than me actually. And I'm sure he would be perfectly content without anymore children. I'm the one who wants more. But that is my point, that it is very stressful anyway. I would want to wait until things are much much better than right now in every aspect and I'm unsure if that can happen in his given time frame. I am actually considering if this could be a deal breaker for me.

I guess just an update if anyone was wondering. Nothing and everything going on all at once. We have been trying to move. Our eviction hearing was this morning but we didn't go. That probably means we have a week to finish moving. We were supposed to be staying with my mom but that just isn't going to work. My mom and I haven't been getting along too well lately. WBF has been doing good at his new job so we should be back on our feet again soon. We have no place to put the rest of our things and we can't quite afford storage right now and we are having a ****** of a time trying to find a place for our cats to go. There is sooo much stress right now. I keep finding myself blaming WBF for all of this (in my head). I know that this is what has to happen for us to recover together. Whenever I loose it, I just keep saying to him "You better love me for the rest of your life". I know this is probably a HUGE LB. I'm going to try not to say it anymore.

We've been getting along pretty well considering the circumstances. I've been doing a bit of nagging but not too bad. The other day, WBF's former co-worker (who is still a co-worker and friend to OW) called him out of the blue. It was a very short conversation. WBF says he didn't mention OW at all, just small talk. It trggered a dream WBF had last night. He had a dream that this Former co-worker was saying that HE was having an affair with OW. WBF said "it was really strange, in my dream I couldn't remember what she looked like. I think that's a good thing". I said, "Yes, but when you woke up you remembered again." He said, "No, that's strange. You know how when you don't see someone for awhile and you can't really remember what they look like?". I just said yeah and changed the subject. I take that to mean that he's saying he doesn't remember. That would be great. I found myself starting to dwell on it and wanting to talk more about it. I didn't. I tried to change my thoughts. I've been doing that alot lately. I keep everything to myself and try not to think so much. Things have been so crazy that I haven't had a chance to be bothered with my normal haunting thoughts as much. That's great. I'm just worried that once things calm down then it will all come rushing back to me. Is there ever going to come a time when the A isn't going to consume me anymore?

Enough babble for now, just wanted to update. Thanks for reading. BTW, I think I might be ready to ove to the Recovery board. What do you think?

NC 76 days and counting!

HNT,

I know we've talked about this before...so I'm going to ask you...

"What I'm getting at is I feel there has to be a point where I say, "This just isn't going to happen and am I willing to live the rest of my life feeling unaccepted and unloveable?" and then reassess the situation."

How can anyone else MAKE you feel unaccepted and unlovable? They may not accept your actions. They may not choose to love you. How does that translate into you being unaccepted or unlovable?

The rest of your posts...I hear you saying...

Earning love makes more sense to you.

Having your WBF be in love with you again gives you a feeling of security.

Changing yourself (physically, sexually, domestically, romantically, etc.) to be more attractive to WBF will get him to be in love with you and speed up the process.

Your counselor wouldn't give you what you wanted.

You compare his experience with OW to your experience with him.

You seem to desire that he react to you as his details letter told you he reacted to OW.

I think you have a good shot at getting that from him because of what you believe.

Good luck, HNT.

LA

You're right, LA. Despite the tremendous efforts you've made as well as everyone else on MB, I have been unable to locate my ability to just change my beliefs. Perhaps I don't belong here.

Best Wishes

HNT,

Do you have to locate what you already know you have? Every human created has the ability to choose what they believe...first, they have to see what they believe before they can change it.

After identifying what belief they are operating from, they then look to see if it's valid or not...in our adult experience...and choose what they truly do believe versus what they took on from others and don't really believe.

I laid out there for you what I saw you believing in your previous post. What makes you think you are unable to change your beliefs?

You choose to believe a lot of things which hurt you tremendously...my efforts here haven't been tremendous, but consistent...because I was like you, harming myself and believing my H was doing it to me. That's destructive, untrue fantasy.

My choice. I'm asking you to choose what you believe, think and perceive with high awareness...you're choosing all that, anyway...

LA

LA,

That's just it. I am not aware of that ability within myself. The way you life your life and have tried to help me with mine sound great! I would love to get there. I just can't seem to find the pathway within me to do that. I have tried to believe differently. It ends up looking like me giving myself a pep talk. Two different people speaking to eachother. The person giving the pep talk doesn't have to believe what she's saying. It's about trying to get the person getting the pep talk to believe it. It sounds good but I just don't believe it. Most of my beliefs come from my experiences. I don't want to live the rest of my life miserable, but I don't know how to change my beliefs. Really change them. Maybe it is far beyond you or anyone else's help and encouragement. Maybe it is something that requires meds or something. Not sure. Don't know where to go from here except for to just keep being me. Thanks again, LA.

Yesterday was our deceased son's B-day. He would be 4 years old. Neither of us have been to the cemetery in the last year or so. I feel guilty for not going often, so I don't go some more. it just snowballs. I wanted to go alot during WBF's A, but I didn't. We went yesterday and took him some toys and flowers. We didn't stay long because it was getting dark and DD2 had no idea what was going on. We kinda tried to explain it but she's only 2. She immediately equated birthday with ice cream and didn't understand why we would be leaving toys and flowers and calling this stone her brother. So, we ended the visit with her temper tantrum. She wanted ice cream and those were HER flowers and HER truck and HER football. Very emotional for me still. I'm going to start visiting more often so I don't feel guilty and so DD2 isn't confused forever. I was especially grateful that WBF and I are together now. I couldn't imagine having to go there alone.

HNT,

If new beliefs do not resonate, strike a chord on the inside of you, then you truly do not believe what I'm saying. You don't have to...you can continue your life aware of what you believe and why...the resonation is when true self says, "Yes!!! Hear that? That's what I have believed all along!" and self-image (the second in your scenario) gives way for being found as a fraud...something taken on, under your own radar, and lived from...so you experience a feeling of release, joy and freedom...very exciting.

Which is why I can say from my highest truth...you already know what I'm telling you...and you already are this person who believes that, even though you haven't been living from it...truly is who you really are.

What doesn't resonate inside you isn't yours, I don't think. Not about sounding good at all...being thrilling when they connect to you...relieving, freeing, exciting...

You believe what you've experienced...can you see how you will continue to have the same experiences because you choose those beliefs? A lot of what you truly believe...earning love...others filling you up...were from your experience as a child...not as an adult. Do you want to live by those experiences or be open to a new way to live?

LA

No, I don't want to keep living like I have been. I am open to a new way to live. How do I get what I want to believe to click? To really believe it? I can tell myself what I want to believe. This is what I do with the "pep talks" but it never actually becomes what I truly believe. Does this make sense?

Sit down with the list I did and read one item at a time. Ask yourself, is that what you really believe? Is that how you believe adult humans thrive?

Listen and feel for resistance within yourself...like a resonance being squelched...resistance is from fear...and you may have heard as a child that your fears weren't real, your beliefs, feelings and thoughts weren't real, reasonable or true. And they were. You know that now. They are yours and they are valid.

So when someone suggests believing we are all equal and you feel a hiccup inside...a little elation and then a squelching feeling...you might be pushing down that resonation from resistance...from fear of being duped, put down, degraded, or you have severe self-doubt...you never get it right anyway, so why try?

Maybe you have beliefs beneath your beliefs...feelings underneath your feelings...a duality like what you're talking about with the two selves...which isn't crazy at all...I was of two selves...a real one and a made up one. I think a lot of us are.

When you've posts to you, what does that autovoice in your head say? "They are trying to blanket you in with others and you're unique. They don't know what they are talking about. You aren't like them. They're lying. They just don't know"?

That if you could just explain more, better, more details, then we would change our advice to you? Does our advice change? Do you understand we have been in your skin? It's why we feel connected, knowledgeable and do not see you as wrong or nuts...we see ourselves in you?

Find your points of interference...there may be a few...which may be obscuring the resonance, connectedness, relief and freedom feelings...not at all about you being defective or different (made differently) than any other human...no incapability about it. Maybe more boobytraps?

So listen and feel for the resistance, the interference, where you are literally cutting yourself off...which often is what self-image does to self...maybe you can uncover more and strain less?

LA

OK, LA. I'm still not getting this, but I tried what you said and here's what happened.

"Earning love makes more sense to you."

When someone is appealing or has appealing qualities, they are perceived as loveable. What someone considers appealing is different for each individual person. My belief is that in order to be loved, I have to be loveable. Thus, also have to be appealing to whomever I would like to be loved by. If I can do things that could make me more appealing to someone (WBF), then it increases my chances that person will perceive me as loveable. Which also increases the chance that they will love me. I want to be loved. Is that abnormal? Is it unhealthy to want to be loved? So, yes. I guess that earning love makes more sense to me. I don't know another way. So, yes, that is what I really believe. I can't imagine romantically loving someone who I didn't find appealing. Not that they are unloveable. Just not going to be loved (romantically) by me.
"Is that how you believe adult humans thrive?" I don't know. As I said, I don't know another way. I don't know how adult humans thrive.

"Having your WBF be in love with you again gives you a feeling of security."

I don't know about a feeling of security. It feels good when you are in love with someone and they are in love with you. Again, is this unhealthy?

"Changing yourself (physically, sexually, domestically, romantically, etc.) to be more attractive to WBF will get him to be in love with you and speed up the process."

Already answered this. Yes, I believe that if I am more attractive to WBF then his perception of me will be that I am loveable and he will be more likely to love me.

"Your counselor wouldn't give you what you wanted."

Yes, this is what I really believe. I believe she was interested in helping me in the areas that she thought I needed help. Not in the areas that I think I need help. "Is that how you believe adult humans thrive?" Don't know how to answer this one.

I can see that I'm still not getting it. I find all things to be true to me. I would like to know how others think and believe differently than me. How would you do this exercise? All i know is what I beleive. How do I adopt a different way of thinking?

HNT,

Okay, so earning love makes more sense to you. Can you see the flip side of that belief? If you earn love then you earn not being loved. If you aren't working at being lovable all the time, then you won't be loved. So you improve your chances of losing love. Your perception of how well you're earning or not earning love determines the level you feel loved.

And with this belief, others earn your love and can lose your love, accordingly. All dependent on your perception, not theirs. I believe this is where we feel entitled to being loved...when we believe we're doing a bang up job of earning it and aren't feeling it enough in return...so this belief entitles us to punish those who don't act lovingly enough for us to feel it...again, dependent on our perception.

Does this remain a reasonable belief to you?

Your belief that changing yourself for your WBF is tagged to this same belief...rather than choosing to change yourself for you.

LA