CS~

I don't think it's organized religion.

I think it's the individual(s) within the religion/denomination.

And individuals are flawed.

Many individuals lack character, a kind heart, and integrity at some point in their lives, and some... their entire life.

No matter what belief system we stand up for... we are still human, and humans fall...(or actually as my siggy says, WALK... into sin).

Unfortunately, organized religion as a whole sometimes gets a bum rap when we as individuals "walk".

How are you doing?

I was going to say, "Sorry about the acronym mistake" but I'm not. You got a laugh...you tickled yourself...which is a great way to realize you're human and, I'm not nutz.

LOL

Anything that helps my posts make more sense is a blessing.

A big one.

FF, thank you for the clarifying.

LA

I disagree. The nature of an organization -which behaviors are rewarded and which kinds are discouraged or punished- does indeed have an effect upon those within the organization.

History reveals this fact: The Holy Church has been filled with and led by unforgiving hypocrites for centuries.

History also reveals that some of the cruelest folks seem to be the self proclaimed "Faithful."

What I find especially rediculous is the theory that God has established a "spiritual hierarchy" placing males in between him/herself and women (God @ the top, then men, and then women) OR the ever familiar Whites in between God and non-Whites.

Someone even tried to say that this is because men have the most to learn! Another said that God holds husbands responsible for their wife's behavior. It is patently rediculous to place a LESS knowledgeable person IN CHARGE of a more knowledgeable one-or to hold the less knowledgeable person responsible for the MORE knowledgeable person's actions. But I digress...LOL

In short, most religions REQUIRE women to defer to people who are less able to control their baser urges, such as sexual lust or anger, or who are less knowledgeable than they are. What a deal-huh? Methinks that some people will use anything to justify / ensure their position at the top.


[color:"red"]This nonsense actually counters Harley's philosophies. I visited this site some time ago and I saw a letter that someone named "S.K." sent to Harley. She stated that that after she & her husband had a baby, she is now a SAHM and her husband and her are having issues. In Harley's reply he actually described the traditional biblical marriage as the " [color:"black"] Dictatorship style [/color] " of dealing with conflict in marriage: One spouse had "the final say" because they are deemed to be the leader or the head of the household. Harley stated that this style eventually eventually leads to unrealistic expectations, unkept promises, and resentment. Harley's reasoning was that human nature, being what it is, will result in the "leader" or "head" making decisions that suit himself best.[/color]

My opinon: The Traditional / Dictatorship style can only be maintained when one party (usu the female) has few economic or social resources / options. Even if a female "agrees" to this, she will usually develop some sort of resentment. And because our society has basically moved away from the optimal set of circumstances required to keep such an arrangement going-she can act upon her dissatisfaction by filing for divorce.

Here are Harley's words:
Dear B.K.
Since you became pregnant with your first child, your life has completely changed. Your goals have probably changed, your needs have probably changed and your resources have undoubtedly changed. All these changes have required you and your husband to make new decisions every day. And with every decision you make, there is a risk of conflict between your interests and the interests of your husband.

Your new baby has forced you into a new lifestyle. He has been a 24 hour a day responsibility from the moment he was born, and you're life will never be the same. Your letter reflects the stress you and your husband are under trying to adjust to your new way of life.

But your letter also reflects a growing resentment. You feel abandoned by your husband in your hour of greatest need. Here you are faced with one of the most demanding and stressful responsibilities of your life, and where is the man? Watching TV, no doubt. And then, to make matters worse, he is grousing about not having much money since you took a leave of absence from your job to care for your baby. Why hasn't he been more supportive of you during the first three months of your son's life? Why does he seem distant at a time that you want him to be emotionally connected to you?

The answer to those questions is found in the way you and your husband make decision. With every problem you face, there are an array of solutions. You have solutions and your husband has solutions. But a reasonable solution for you may not be reasonable for your husband. What may work to your advantage, may work to his disadvantage, and vice versa. When that happens, you have a conflict.

Conflicts are very common in marriage, but much more common when the first baby arrives. That's because you become flooded with new decisions that must be made quickly, decisoins you've never had to make before. It is the first real test of your problem-solving skills.

The success of your marriage will depend on your ability to resolve your conflicts with mutual consideration. That means whenever a decision is to be made about anything, the feelings of both you and your husband must be taken into account simultaneously.

But, sadly, that's not the way most married couples resolve their conflicts. If you bear with me, I'll first explain what most couples do to try to resolve their conflicts, and then I'll explain what couples should do. Finally, I will give you some advice regarding the care of your baby.


How Most Couples Resolve Conflicts
Most couples use one of three different strategies to resolve conflicts. The first and most common of the three is the Dictator strategy. This strategy assumes that one member of the family, usually the husband, has the wisdom and compassion to make most family decisions correctly. While other members of the family can lobby to have him (or her) take their interests into account, when a decision is made, it is final.

Sometimes that strategy works. But, especially here in America, it usually doesn't work. For one thing, dictators have not been known to be all that wise or compassionate. They tend to make decisions in their own interest and at the expense of their citizens. The same thing happens in marriage. When one spouse is given the right to make all final decisions, the other spouse usually suffers.

You may be a victim of the Dictator strategy. It sounds to me as if your husband has decided that you are to take full responsibility for the care of the baby, especially since you are not employed. It solves the problem from his perspective, but not from yours. That's the downside of the Dictator strategy.
.......

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DFAS = Defense Finance & Accounting Service

What is your point?

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I must ask-Why are you doing that?

LA,
I am feeling okay. Sort of up and down. I am trying to stay in the moment and not in the past of worry about the future. This is hard for me.

Yesterday I was feeling nauseous. I was out of a prescription and H offered to go pick it up. This is not something he has offered to do in the past. My first answer was no. I have a problem with letting him do things for me. This was a kind gesture. I chose to rethink it as that and said yes, please if you don't mind. He and DD went to get it.

I am trying to stop with obsessive checking of cell and email accts. I am getting better and nothind seemed out of line. H went to bed very late last night. This is a trigger for me of sorts. I checked H's cell this am. There was a received text from a number with a code. I have no idea what this is. I tried to internet search this. I think it might be a mobile gmail or sms. I am trying not to obsess over this. He had a gmail acct. with the FOW so I don't know what to make of this. I don't want to be suspicious. I am choosing to trust him yet I see in my behavior that I am not fully trusting or I would stop this checking. I am not sure how to deal with this exactly.

I see him showing loving behavior towards me. I choose to believe that he loves me. I choose to love him. I show loving behavior towards him. I am not sure if checking up qualifies as a loving behavior. I am having a tug of war with self.

My folks have called twice on cell. I have not returned or answered calls yet. I am trying to figure out how to deal with the FOO. Scratch that..just got off the phone with FOO. LA it was good that you posted what you did about the fixer. He is in fixer mode. I sense that he senses that he isn't going to get to control this situation and says I need more contact with my FOO because I am isolated and surrounded by H's FOO. I love H's FOO too. H's FOO will be more supportive to M staying together. My dad (he will deny this til he's blue in the face) will subtly suggest a D. He says I am avoiding finding a MC because my comment about finding a pro M counselor didn't make any sense to him. He says all MC are trained an none will advise a D if you don't want that.

I do NOT agree with that statement. I think there are plenty that will advise to D. He says that subconciously that might be what I want so that is why I am avoiding IC MC.Ughhhhhhhhhh..the FOO. I am aware of what they will do if they get to much contact right now. The FOO will take control. I don't want this to happen. Why do FOO never think anyone is good enough? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Okay some chores and then a reply to MM. MM if you see this before I get a chance to respond back know that your post was a revelation to me. I see know that my R with God has nothing to do with organized religion. It is between him and me. This is good. This is progressive for me. Thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JJ,

"I don't want to be suspicious."

Why not? Seriously. What, in you, does not want to be suspicious? The adult Jilly or the child Jilly not wanting something that is to not be?

Checking up is dealing with your own fear...not about him...about you...you are in control of your emotions...they are yours. Did you ask your WH about the text? Did you state that his coming to bed late...staying up late...was a trigger?

I took the triggers as my own...not his responsibility, but mine. I asked to look at his cell phone, or picked it up...and said thank you when I checked it. I changed from snooping behind his back, to in front of him...being honest. This was healing for me and for him...I owned my own fear, not him making me do it, and weaned myself off of my compulsion, slowly, surely, over months.

Is checking up a loving behavior for yourself...for you? It is for right now, not forever...it is a healing device, an ownership, and a way of knowing where your fears come from.

As for FOO...well, you're doing great. You can't change your father...acknowledge, listen and repeat and know this is his act of love...he can say you are isolated and you not believe that...know the abusive way your father has...in telling you your own life, like a story. Like truth. You have tapes in your head that repeat, repeat these stories...obscuring who you are and your own choices. Know these stories are from love and not truth. Change what he says into the correct, "I believe" and "I feel" statements healthy adults have...they are his beliefs, not your truth. Some may coincide; for now, though, stay clean, in touch with your own stuff...living your life today, not being told it.

What you believe is valid. His opinion is valid. It's his...you have yours. See where the blurriness comes in?

FOO can't take control...we can give it. We have even that choice. Amazing power.

FOO fears...they embody in us our fears...for we learned to fear so early...know only fear and comfort...fear and relief from fear...

I big part of my change came with understanding that I yearned for acceptance...and when in the remaining rubble of my life, I learned I most craved acceptance of myself...and when I got that...I accepted WH, respected and finally began to thrive.

In your corner,

LA

LA,


Are you a therapist? I feel that you would be good at this job. You have a way. I see your way. It is the way for me too. I see this. I want this.



Good point. He has given me permission to look at all of these even shown and asked me to look in his presence. I see where I am going about this in the wrong way. Asking questions when you need to is respect. It isn't a DJ if it is done with the mindset of I want to trust you. I am choosing to trust you and this is a way that helps me feel my trusting. I see the problem with not doing it in his presence because this shows a lack not only of trust but I see it as a DJ to my H. I don't trust you enough to ask for what I need. It is okay for me to ask. Asking for what you need is valid. My H isn't a mind reader. He cannot help with what I don't ask for. I see this. I want this. I am going to ask for what I need.

He says he wants me to trust him. He says he knows there are things I will need to help with that. He calls from cell to reassure me when he is away. He takes the kids with him. I feel he takes them to show trust. I am choosing to see this as an act of good faith. I see that I need to do the things that bring honor to the M. Asking for help to restore trust is honorable yes?



I see this. I see what I need to do. This will not be easy but a necessary step to a more healthy R with the FOO. I can love the FOO and still disagree with them. Just like I can choose to love and trust God and understand the difference between what God is for me and separate it from my R with organized religion. Doesn't mean I can't go back to church. I can when my R with God is strong enough for me to live in the truth with God and know the difference. I get to choose my R with God. It doesn't have to be under the belief system I was raised with. When I am ready for church God will show me where to go. I see this.

Oprah had Garth Brooks and Trisha Yearwood on the other day. They sang a song together. I liked the lyrics. Part of the song repeats in my head as a mantra. I know it a song about romantic love yet for me I am choosing it as a song that helps me with all of my R's in my life.

Here are the lyrics that repeat in my head.The song is called Love Will Always Win. This is just the chorus.

No way over it, no way around it.
If we want it, we have to go through it.
Fight for a love and the world tries to break us down.
But the world will bend,
An' the fight will end.
Love will always win.

I am choosing these words are part of my recovery of myself. Especially the first 2 lines. It is my mantra for not running away from these issues anymore. It is time to grow myself up. It doesn't matter if I failed to this in the past. I am choosing to help my inner child reach adulthood. I am choosing not to let the past sink me again.

You are important in this LA. I am asking you to stay here with me. You are my reality check. You are my mirror. It is good to see.


I am choosing to post something on another thread to a woman on this board who is suicidal. I have purposely not posted on other threads because I see there are many here who are very bothered by me posting here. I see why they are upset. I do not wish to hurt others by being here. I want this cycle of poor choices to end with my H and I. We can choose to do the best we can to become the best family we can. I choose to post on that thread because I see this woman is crying out for help. She needs help. I can try to help her.

Oh, I see, Jilly, something interesting...in trying to see where you DJ, which is assumption...you got snooping confused with assuming he's in contact...rather than verification he isn't.

Ahhh. Now I see. No DJ in snooping...him volunteering, wanting to be verified (wow!) is him helping give you what you need. Take it. Tell yourself it is okay to be married, work on a marriage, and not trust. The exact opposite is what we're taught...until we've lived, by choice, differently.

No, I'm not a therapist. All this is from my deep belief we're all in this life together...sharing myself, my experiences, will be threaded through others' and make something neither of us can see...God's work...his own needlepoint.

As far as snooping not in his presence...get his permission, if you need it, for doing so. This does not betray the marriage...it is for the marriage. You have huge trust issues, they're real, they are a natural consequence of your WH's latest choice and the origin of your whole marriage. You're not going to get through them quickly and get to trust easily.

Like healing, takes time and accountability. So far, you have that.

Yes, you honor your marriage when you seek truth and do not assume. You honor your marriage by asking for what you need, and sharing what you're thinking, feeling and believing...as your own.

Sharing yourself helps other...this thread helps others...you may never know when or how much...you can choose to believe this or not.

Know your intent before you act...identify it thoroughly...that will guide you to choose from self rather than others...and others matter...because often, they reflect our true intent, which we covered over in ourselves.

I am privileged to be in your corner,

LA

LA,

I know you wish to be helpful to JJ, HOWEVER, this is MM's thread which he has requested everyone stay off of out of respect for him. He also wants to maintain peace within this thread and have it's hurtfulness to some be respected by it's continuance as an open one on one thread that won't stick to the top of the board when he's not around (weekends). Unfortunately, it's the only way MM can do this cause since MM is still a married man.

I presume you respect MM as do many of us that are sitting out here literally biting our tongues (off in many cases) out of such respect for MM. IMO, you are distracting JJ from answering some of the very important questions MM has for her.

If you are really interested in continuing this side discussion of FOO and adoption issues with JJ I suggest you start a new thread where all of us can get in on the discussion.

I hope you will take my advice but I realize it's a public board and you are free to do as you please.

Mr. Wondering

MrW,

I don't read where MM said everyone to stay off...

"First off, I started this thread...not JJ. I did so because after reading her story originally, I do think that her situation can be helped in God's plan...and also can be very illustrative to all of us concernign marriages that start this way...and concerning OPs in general.

So, I started this thread so that JJ can begin to discuss soem of this AND all of us can begin to understand this.

The verbal foodfight that is going on is really wrong...on both sides. Sure, whaty JJ did to get into the current marriage was wrong. And offensive. And hurtful. I would be the LAST one to let that go by, and you all know that!! So for the folks that think that JJ gets a pass at tough, probing questions really need to take it elsewhere. Because she needs tough probing questions and answers in order to get thru the mess she created.

But, on the other side...I see the "repent or die" position. What I mean by that is that the guy on the street corner with the sign that says "repent or die" is absolutely correct...and absolutely wrong. He is correct because without accepting Jesus, every person will go to He!1. But he is wrong because NO ONE has been won to Christ on a "repent or die" slogan.

Jesus did not say "get better, and then I'll love you." He did not say "get your act straight, and then I'll help you." Jesus deals with us where we are.

Now, as I said before...and anyone here that knows me knows this to be true...JJ needs to know where she is. But she also needs to be dealt with in a way that will lead her to FULLY understand that...and be able to pull thru that and do what Jesus wants.

So, those that are involved in this food fight, please sit on the sidelines for a little bit. Watch how this unfolds for awhile before chiming in. Let's see where the Lord takes thsi thread...and JJ.

I am not calling anyone out on either side...yet. But there are those on both sides that need to back down now and just watch where this goes for awhile.

I believe the Lord is going to do a work here. Please do not get in the way."

I respect you and MM...and many others who are biting off their tongues...I will gladly step off if he asks me to...I don't do assumptions.

I support MM for why he made this thread, believe fully this is the Lord's work and that is my intent, to be of aid.

I appreciate your opinion that I'm distracting JJ...I am sharing my experiences, my self...who was a serial cheater, an unwed mother and am neither any longer. Nor will be again.

They include FOO, adoption, believing I was incapable and defective...I have done much damage...irreparable damage...it remains. Cannot be undone. I do not intend to more...and I'm sure I have and will...because I'm human.

If this is one of those injuries, if that is what you're suggesting, then I am willing to acknowledge and amend.

I will not post further here until MM returns tomorrow or the next day.

LA

Mr. Wondering,

I was not aware that this was a closed thread for only MM and I. I think MM and I have much to discuss as I believe he and FH have a lot to teach me about God and my faith. You are welcome here as is anyone else who wishes to post here to my knowledge. If there was a discussion of this being a thread that was closed to others I was unaware.

LA is also adopted and a believer. I choose to believe that she can help me with many things. She has a way. MM has a way. FH has a way. BO has a way.CS has a way. Everyone who has posted on this thread has their way You have a way. You are welcome to post on this thread. I ask only one thing if you join in the discussion. I am keenly aware that my presence here is offensive to many MBers. I accept and understand that. There are people here that I truly feel can help me.

My only request is that if you come here that this thread doesn't turn into a hostile enviroment. I am not in anyway making the assumption that you want to do this. I remember reading that both you and your wife felt that neither of you in good conscience could help me. I respect if you cannot. I am not posting all over the board. Since this thread was started I have posted only here except one post today to someone who was suicidal. I felt I could post some links to some resources for her to get some help. I will stay off all other threads. I respect the rest of you enough to keep myself to this thread. I will only respond to other threads if I see what I deem to be a real life emergency such as someone who is suicidal.

Again I was not aware this was a closed thread. You are welcome here by me at least.

JJ,

I respect MM a great deal. Go back and read his questions, think hard and answer them. Do not delay further. MM should be back tomorrow (really today as it's now 1:30 am EST) as he has custody on the weekends through monday afternoon.

I believe you have a very limited (perhaps 1 in 100) shot at getting this right and the tough questions and answers MM will discuss with you are of paramount importance. Think hard and answer him only. Absent MM's involvement this thread would have already disintegrated. Any further involvement by me, others and/or your responses to them merely serves to distract, possibly hurt and/or create such hostile environment. I gleaned from your exit posts that that is not your wish. I sincerely hope this thread can stay quiet albeit for your interactions with MM. He is one of our best and you are fortunate to have his attention. Others may jump in, as it is a public forum; however, JJ, I ask you to practice restraint and stick with only MM for the time being. IMO, it is the ONLY way this thread won't disintegrate.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-FH might be working in tandem with MM, I am uncertain.

This reason, and out of respect for MortarMan is the only reason I have refrained from posting anymore to this thread. It's good advice JJ, I strongly suggest you follow it.

JustJilly - Yes, they are legitimate questions, and I'll try to address them for you, but not until I get a little better understanding of what it is you want to do first.

The next quotation is why I say that:



JJ, for a believer in Christ there is only one way, God's way. You are mixing advice and comments from all corners. I believe that is because you are very confused and "grasping desperately at straws" for some answers to the many questions and issues running around in your head.

So let me ask you a question to hopefully focus your quest for information by prioritizing "where to begin."

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior? If so, when did you accept Jesus and surrender your life to him?

And let me add another question that also bears on your recovery efforts. Is your husband a believer in Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior?

This is where ALL Christians begin. Everything else hinges on the answer to that question.

I'll wait to answer the questions you posed previously until you get a chance to think about this and let me know your answers.

God bless.

Mr. W and BigK...thanks for stopping in.

For everyone...I do understand what this thread means to everyone, and how they feel about this. If it is causing you pain, that is not my intention.

There is a lesson for all of us in this discussion going thru. We will all learn something here, including, hopefully, JustJilly.

I want to stay on the point FHJ and I are trying to get across to JJ. This is a step by step process here. In order to see where she is, and what possibilities she may have, she needs to get back to basics...and we build out from there.

In that building, we will see if she is truly repentent...or just trying to get justification. And if she is repentent, she will begin to fully see what she has created...the possible life-long consequences...but she will also begin to see where God wants her to go with this.

So, if she is unrepentent, she will quickly move away from what she should do. But if she is repentent, then she is one scared and confused woman who got herself into a huge mess.

So, let's just take this walk together and see where God takes us. For those that cant make the journey right now, it is okay to bow out of this thread. For the others, let's watch what the Lord does here.

I also promised a story a pastor once told me so let me post it now:

This pastor had gone to Ireland on a trip, and was out in the fields visitign a shepherd. While there, it was the time of year when many lambs were being birthed.

As they sat talking in the midst of the lambs, one mother lamb gave birth, but died while givign birth. The pastor asked "What will you do with that new lamb? Why dont you give that lamb to the other mother" The shepherd said "She wotn accept that lamb...it isnt hers. But, just wait a minute...and watch."

Shortly thereafter, another lamb gave birth...but to a stillborn. Quickly, the shepherd grabbed the stillborn and cut off its outer skin and fur. He then took that skin over to the lamb who's mother had died, wrapped the skin around him...and tied the skin to him.

He then picked that lamb up and took it back to the mother whose still born was used for the skin. The shepherd set the lamb down next to her. She reached back and sniffed the lamb...and then pulled the little lamb close to her so it could nurse.

This is what Jesus has done for us.

You see, we were children of Satan...dead in our sins. we stood there, alone and without help. No way to help ourselves, no way to fix our predicament. Nothing we could do!!

If we tried to come to God on our own, we would be pushed away because we were not His.

But then One died! He was the Son of God. And when we accept the sacrifice He made, we are covered with His blood, just as that lamb was covered with the skin of the dead lamb.

So, then when we come before the throne of God...He leans over and sniffs...and smells Himself! And we are accepted as if we were the Son that died!!

MM - Excellent presentation of the Gospel message!

Amazing how He is the Shepard and we are His sheep.

God bless.