Suggestion, JJ...

When you say, "no 2x4's" you are asking something I don't believe is respectful. What may feel like a 2x4, something that resonates and hits you where you hurt, may indeed be a truth or act of kindness from someone else; no intent whatsoever to bash you at all. You can feel bashed.

Know this power, JJ...because what I believe you most don't want right now is to intimidate someone else into silence, mess up their message for you in their careful wording or that feeling of being threatened...because we can't know what hurts in you...and we're surprised at what hurts in us.

Still ours.

To live in truth takes our own highest honesty. Can't get there any other way. When we are honest, we accept others' honesty. It's a narrow road...please do not ask for detours. Instead, state what it is you fear...plainly, so you can see it and others can know it.

LA

LA,

Thank you again. I see what you are saying and I see that fear is a lack of trust and that truth is okay no matter how it is presented if it is truth. I have lived in fear too long. I choose to live in truth.

And you are right also I do not want anyone to hold back truth because I might hurt about something said. I am learning to separate the difference between when truth is used to help even if it hurts it is okay. I am getting stronger. I admit to feeling protective of my husband. I am also extremely grateful to FH for pushing the envelope because immediately after I read his post I called my friend and went to church. I was afraid to push my H because of my own fears. When I was pushed in the past it caused me to rebel...to pull away. But this is childish thinking. I know I cannot make my H go. I can however express my desire for him to go and be more direct without being disrespectful. I am so happy that he has agreed to go next week that I guess I felt scared that if FH was disappointed that I didn't push that he would leave too. I am learning to trust and to have faith.

I am sorry FH for making any assumption of how you may or may not react. So speak from your heart and tell me the truth in whatever way you wish. I will not run away. I will have faith that this is what I need to hear.

My fear was that FH would be disappointed in me for not pushing harder...I am sorry FH. Please forgive me.

LA...again thank you for calling me out when you see something I need to work on. I appreciate it more than you know.

Jilly, no, no 2x4's. You went. And I'm encouraged that you felt a little motivation from reading my post. I really didn't expect your husband to go, but what needed to be said, needed to be said. It's called being accountable to each other and encouraging others to be obedient to God even when they don't feel like it for whatever reason. NOT going to church is an "easy" decision. It's one that struggle with too on some days. But I will tell you that God WILL talk to each of you when you do go. At times you will even feel as thought the message was directed right at you.

It sounds like today's message was just like that to you. Even if your husband was not there, he was, because you two are "one flesh" and you will react to the message and even discuss it with him.

Care to know what today's message was at the church my wife and I attended? It was about the Prodigal Son. Much good stuff there that God was teaching me, and my wife, about WHAT Jesus was teaching in that Parable directed at the Pharisees.

I'm glad to read your husband will attend with you next week. I'm sure God will be ready for both of you when you come to listen to what He has to say to you.

Also, don't fret. I'm not going anywhere just yet. Understand that the "2x4" I spoke of is the Word of God. Sometimes is seems gentle and sometimes it smacks us "up along side our noggin" to get the message of obedience to God across to our stubborn, sometimes dense, minds.

God bless.

FH,

Thank you. I have my fears and many stem from past behavior of not having faith which the pastor explained in his sermon as not trusting God. I thank you for your post to me because after I read it I stopped giving myself any excuse not to go and went. I went and it was good. I was terrified of breaking down in church. I went and saw that it was okay to breakdown. God doesn't mind. He will take me where I am. This is the mission statement of this church. "God takes you where you are."

On an even more positive note H has expressed desire to go to IC. So this church offers IC and MC. Perhaps this would be the best place to go since it will be pro marriage. I am not sure if I should still pursue trying to get into the IC who specializes in adoption or if this faith based IC may be better for me right now. Maybe I need both. I will just see which way God leads me and my H.

I thank you and MM and LA for helping me to get back with God. To take that step....to dispel my disillusionment and to move into new beliefs. I felt more peace yesterday after going then I have in a long time. This tells me I am on the right path.

We start teaching kids tomorrow. My H and I both feel a bit more anxiety then we usually do regarding first day. Most teachers feel nervous about the first day of a new year. Please pray for us tonight and tomorrow.

I feel closer to my husband than I ever have. I choose to honor this by continuing to be honest and open and by giving God the role of leading us. As broken as we are right now I feel an unwavering commitment. I feel safe in the arms of God and in the arms of my H. I feel blessed in the love of my children and although I have many issues to finally face I choose to face them now. I choose to stay and fight.

I know the story of the prodigal's son very well however I do not know where it is in scripture. Could you post the Chapter/vs. so I can read this again. I would like to read this tonight before I go to bed...if you get this before then.

Thank you FH for helping me and my H and our family.

Jilly - sure, that's an "easy one." You'll find the story in Luke 15:11-32.

But you should also read the entire chapter, the parable of the Lost Sheep and the parable of the Lost Coin, for more context of what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees and the teacher of the law, as these parables were directed at them.

These parables, Jilly, are NOT about the sinner(prodigal son) or the shepard or the woman. They are NOT about mere "numbers" (100 sheep or 10 coins). They are about the Father. IF it were only about the numerical total, the shepard could go and buy another sheep or wait until another sheep was born the remaining 99 in the flock. IF it were only about 10 coins(each one, btw, worth 1 day's wage for a day laborer), the woman could go get another coin to "make up for the lost coin." The shepard leaves the flock to go find the specific one sheep that got lost(elected from before time began) and then, when he finds it, puts it on his shoulders and carries it back to the fold, safe in his arms and carried by him. The woman tears her house apart looking for the ONE lost coin, because no other coin will do. Sure, she could get another coin, but it wouldn't be THE coin that she had(elected from before time began). The sheep and the coin already WERE possessed by their owners(even though the sheep and the coin didn't know it), and the owners considered them irreplaceable and searched for them until they were found and restored to their rightful place among the others that belonged to the owners.

The prodigal son (lost son) represents lost sinners, the "unlovely," the "untouchable ones" (like the Samaritans were to the Jews in Jesus' day). This son that Jesus used as an illustration for the Pharisees and teachers of the law that "could not have happened" in Jewish society at that time. This son would have been stoned to death for his actions against his father. Jews also did NOT get anywhere near unclean pigs, much less "wallow around" in their abode. The father did something that was unheard of in Jesus' day. He divided all that he had and gave the younger son his portion BEFORE he died. That portion WAS the younger son's (1/3 of the entire estate) that would be his without question upon the death of the father. So what the son asked of the father was shameful to the extreme, yet the father bore the shame of the son for him and did it.

When the son finally came to his senses, and returned home, the father bore another shame for the son. He did not wait for the son to arrive home (he was "dead" according to Jewish law at the time) he RAN (sprinted, ran as fast as he could) to meet the son while he was still a long way off from home. Jewish men of the father's stature did NOT run. It was against Levitical law for them to "show their legs," as would happen when someone had to sprint (raise the hem of their garment to allow for the legs to run). The father bore that shame too for his son. He showered that son with compassion and hugged and kissed him in joy and love. It is NOT works that saves and restored the lost, it is the Father's love and will.

Jilly, this is certainly applicable to those we know do not yet have Christ. I believe that it is equally applicable to those who think they are saved, but really are not. It is NOT about those who ARE saved, but it is also a warning to those who ARE believers (faithful sons of God) through no work of their own (being born into, adopted into) the family of God by what Jesus did for them) about others of "God's flock" that we might "think are beneath us." We did not "pick" our parents, they "picked us." Once a member of the family, we are always a member of the family. But we DO need to guard against pride, that others have "sinned so badly that they cannot also become a restored and treasured son of God." That is how the Jewish Pharisees and teachers of the law saw things. Jesus was "setting them straight." It applied then, and it still applies. Repentant sinners who cast themselves, and their unworthy state, on God "merit" sonship solely because of what God (the Father and the Son) have DONE for them. Jesus bears their shame for them and restores them to the Father as "clean and spotless" sons and daughters based on HIS love and compassion for them and HIS love for the Father.

God bless and continue to teach you and your husband as you begin this new journey WITH Christ.

FH,

I was originally going to read Luke 15 11-32. I just started with Luke 1 and kept going. I think Luke is a good place for me to be reading right now as it has to do with faith. I read the entire bible growing up but it has been a long time since I studied this way. I am wondering if there is a scriptural study guide that you recommend...one that helps you find certain specific scripture I am looking for etc. I am using the the index and concordance in the back of the NKJV Woman's. I have to admit something. I came across the Lord's Prayer whose words I was taught all my years growing up. When I came across the NIV and the NKJV I felt a bit sad because the words are different.

I asked my H to recite the version he knows which is almost exactly the same as I know except his substitutes trespassers for debtors. I have also heard it this way. The part that was upsetting for me was the part that left off at the end "And thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen." I finally found the version I was seeking online.

This is the Lord's Prayer I know.
Verse: Matthew 6:9-13.



King James Version...KJV...Bible of 1611
9"After this manner therefore pray ye: 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. '"


I am just wondering why in some versions they leave the last part out? When I was searching online I see a lot of different version some leaving or changing a lot of this prayer. I don't know why I feel so protective over that particular version. Maybe it is what I was brought up with and although many of my ingrained, indoctrinated SDA beliefs are in questions the scripture itself (that I was brought up with) is NOT.

Anyway when I finish Luke I am thinking of starting Matthew as I feel like I need that one too right now. Well I need a lot right now but I guess I feel guided next to Matthew. I am thinking about getting a 1611 version just for reference because the other KJV I have is different too.

Any suggestions of scriptural study guides would be much appreciated.

Thanks FH.

MM,

Just checking in with you. Hope you are well.

Jilly, the version you use is not as important as making sure that it is a translation based upon the existing manuscripts, in order to keep the translation as close to the original autographs as possible.

I happen to prefer the old KJV version of the Lord's Prayer because that is what I learned when I was a child (other versions such as the NIV were not in existance yet) and I like the "poetic style" of the old English. In many parts, though, it is harder to understand the old KJV simply because we don't speak that way anymore.

There are some folks who are "KJV (1611 version) only" folks and consider any other translation to be wrong. I don't hold to that position simply becase ALL translations are just that...translations of the original language in which the Scripture was written. Even the 1611 KJV isn't "foolproof" in it's translation, as the story of Jonah shows. The 1611 translates the creature that swallowed Jonah as a "whale," while the more correct translation would be "great fish." In 1611, as today, there is no greater creature "size wise" in the oceans than whales, but they are mammals. They may not have know the difference in 1611. But regardless, "whale" or "great fish" does not change the story at all, much less the teaching that was intended about running from God and not wanting to submit to God's will.

The "why" for the differences, aside from simple differences in language usage, are, or should be, that the translators use the oldest extant manuscripts upon which to base the transalation. The idea is that the older the manuscript, the closer to the original text it should be and it avoids later possible additions by a scribe that may not have been in the original autographs.



It's a good idea, especially when studying, to have several different translations available to aid in clarity. A good commentary is also very helpful since most of us are Greek and Hebrew scholars. Generally speaking, when there is a difference in the manuscripts, they will footnote the differences so you can see what was said in a manuscript that was not used in that translation. For example, in the NIV footnotes to Matthew 6:13 you will find the following: "Or from evil; / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.




For starters I would recommend, if you want to, getting a MacArthur Study Bible. There are comments for virtually every verse at the bottom of each page to aid in understanding and clarity of what the verse or passages are teaching. In addition, there is an extensive concordance in the back where you can look up every reference to a word whereever it occurs in the entire Bible.

Now, if you want a quick, but very good way to "get started," I would also recommend a daily devotional that you can do alone or as a couple. It usually takes about 5 minutes per day. The one I really like called On Holy Ground by Dr. Charles Stanley. You might find, as I did, that it has an uncanny ability to talk about something that is relevant in my life TODAY. It is the one that my wife and I used (I bought 2 copies, one for each of us) while we were separated. That way we could each study the same thing each day even though we were not, at that time, together. Later, we studied together after she moved back home and we began recovery.

I hope that helps to get you started.

God bless.

FH,

I am in the middle of a very long post/update to you but I had to save it to a word doc. because I am not finished. I just wanted to tell you that God is with us so much right now and we are spending a lot of time developing our new faith and new relationships with God and each other. I am so in love with God and my husband and I truly believe that we are at a new beginning in our lives.

You and MM and LA all have helped me so much. God brought to this site for a reason. I thought it was to try to save my marriage. I didn't know it was to save our lives.

For no one knows the power their words may have in the profound change in another's life.

I am so blessed to have met you all.

(((((JustJilly)))))

I'm looking forward to reading your next post.

God bless.

FH, (heads up this is LONG.)

Thanks so much for the help with your last post. I meant to post back last night but I spent so much time reading the bible that I didn't post. Plus my H and I have been spending a lot more time together.

Okay, so I have figured out how to use the footnotes in the The Woman's Study Bible NKJV Nelson 926G version. I want to get a new NIV is the MacArthur a NIV? The Woman's has study sections throughout also so I am using those too. I spent some time getting acquainted with how this version and study guide is set up so it is helping me to find what I need. I am also treating this study with as much time and devotion as I do any class or study I have taken. I think for me this is the right way. I am trying to set my study up somewhat like I would a syllabus for a graduate course. This way I can plan a certain amount of time a day to do it. I am very committed to it and have always been a good student as far as studying goes. I know there isn't a "test" at the end but for me there is a reward at the end and that is salvation. All I can say is that this new found faith has given me some moments of true grace. For it is in these moments that I feel a better sense of well being and more at peace with myself.

My friend that I went to church with sent me a book called The Blessings of Brokenness (Why God Allows us to go Through Hard Times) by Charles Stanley. It is a pretty easy read and has some good insight about how periods of brokenness can help us really develop our faith and also be more aware of reaping our times of joy. I shared some with my H last night.

I find it interesting that my H has confessed his A to a couple of his close friends at work. At first he didn't want anyone to know and now I see him not in a gossiping kind of way but in a remorseful kind of way taking accountability with his work friends for his actions.

One in particular is another motherly figure who is a believer. They had a good talk about it and she gave him a book and wrote him a note about God's forgiveness and about how accepting responsibility and being repentant and basically the idea of "go and sin no more." This woman has helped him immensely. Last night he shared part of the book she gave him.

Earlier while I was studying the bible he was in the den on his computer. Since the A he has virtually almost stayed off the computer all together. I think because a lot of the A occurred through email and IM etc. that he says that the computer for a long time represented the "sin" to him. However, last night I heard him in there and although I knew he was listening to music I wasn't really paying that much attention to what he was doing in there. Later he came in and I asked him what he was working on in there and he said I wasn't working on anything I was watching all of our home movies (family video montages that he has made over the years) and crying his eyes out.

We talked about his conversation with the believer and how he is seeking out his friends at work that are Christians. He has always been friends with these people but during the A he disconnected from them. He says he feels healing in being with them. in Christ. In them helping him to understand that the A doesn't define him but rather how he has chosen to conduct himself in the aftermath shows his faith and who he is as a man. He cried and said I am not a bad person...I did a very bad thing but that is not who I am. I see so much growth in him everyday. He told me that his Christian friend told him that, what I had expressed as my "gut instinct", at the time...the feeling that compelled me to go to the OW's apt. was not gut instinct, but rather the Holy Spirit guiding me there. My H said that he believes this to be true. I choose to believe it too. I have ignored the Holy Spirit for TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long in my life. He has talked to me many times about many things. I think I have always known what that was…that little voice inside that tells you when something isn’t right or not to do something or to do something. If one is a believer is that feeling of intuition not the Holy Spirit?

My H has been very open about any contact he has had to have with the FOW at work and he says he feels protected almost as if a shield surrounds him when he sees her. He said he knows this is God protecting him. He also relays ANY conversation or run in he has had. After day one when he set the boundary he has only spoken to her if he had to regarding school related things. His class was scheduled for library orientation (FOW is the librarian) and he dropped his kids off and didn’t stay for orientation. She said to the Bull that he was the only one who didn’t stay. My H told the Bull that FOW is a credentialed teacher so there isn’t a need for him to be there. She asked Bull if my H was mad at him and the Bull said he is BUSY…with HIS life.

My H and I had an important conversation about the FOW STBXH. My H was still very bitter in spirit toward him. I felt compelled to discuss this with him. I asked him to retell a conversation he had told me he had with OWH prior to D-Day at a BBQ. When he had talked to him the OWH conveyed how much he LOVED his wife and how he would do anything to make it work. I asked him to think about what FOW had said about her H to him and what FOWH had said to him. I asked him to go deep with his feelings of resentment toward him. I said did this man hurt you…try to break up your family? Who hurt you and tried to break up your family? He said FOW. I then gently reminded my H that he has his family still intact…the FOWH lost his family. I asked him to think about how this man must feel. I asked my H why he had so much resentment toward this man. He said partly because of things FOW had said about him, partly because the FOW convinced him that the FOWH had been the one that had fwd. the emails to me and in part because of a not so nice comment the FOWH had made about me. I said how would FOWH know that about me unless you told FOW and she told him? I said it doesn’t matter who sent the email but in my mind it doesn’t even logically make sense that he sent them because he knew that I already knew about the A. So I again asked H to think about this. I said who was a stakeholder in me finding out intimate details of those emails? Who might stand to gain something if I was destroyed or those emails would have provoked me at the time to ask you to leave? My H just thought about this for a long time and then he said I think you may be right. I said it doesn’t matter who did it. H said after this talk that his feelings of bitterness toward FOWH went away and he saw the truth… a man who lost his family…a man whose wife left him…a man who has done nothing to you. My H said to me you are an amazing person. He said he was moved by my compassion for the FOWH. I said I don’t know this man very well at all BUT he has never done anything to hurt me so I will not harbor ill will toward him. Even though my H said he was sorry to him when FOWH called right after D-day he was still harboring ill will toward him. I witnessed a transformation in him after this talk and was so proud of him for living in truth and seeing truth. I am so proud of him for stepping out of the fog and seeing it for exactly what it really was. I see him moving forward into a better place. He accepts and admits the sin but is starting to forgive himself. He says that he wants to keep our marriage in the forefront of his mind and never allow himself to get to that kind of place again where something like this could happen. He says he prays all the time and he feels God with him now.

My friend that I went to church with called last night and we had a good talk. She told me…I don’t want to scare you but you need to be aware that Satan is really pissed right now and he is mad because he had you guys and now he doesn’t. She called it spiritual warfare to speak. She said she didn’t want me to be terrified that Satan was under every seat but just to be aware that although this A business is done that Satan will be trying his best to tempt us in other ways. It was interesting that she mentioned that because I know that he IS tempting both of us in other aspects of our lives. The good thing about having grown up in such a fundamental Christian home is that I have this knowledge…I guess really I have always had this knowledge just no faith. Now rather than feeling resentful toward my spiritual upbringing and disillusionment I feel grateful and graced to have been given that growing up. My scriptural background is rusty but it isn’t broken and it isn’t lost to me. I feel blessed that I can take what I already know and use it as background in my new faith. My friend told me that Satan cannot read our thoughts so if I felt it necessary then to say aloud in Jesus name I command you to get out of my presence when I feel tempted by other sins.

This got me to thinking about the 10 commandments. In some ways I guess I have broken all of them. No, I have never actually killed someone physically but I cannot say that that thought has never entered my mind and then when I was reading about adultery in the bible it said that anyone who thinks about it has in fact sinned. Help me with this FH.

I don’t mean about adultery I mean if that is true for adultery is it also true for other commandments broken? Thinking bad thoughts about the FOW especially on D-day and after the emails. No I don’t think I considered murdering her but a part of me wished to cause physical harm to her. I moved past that pretty quickly but I am now trying harder to live by God’s commandments and I am aware that I am still sinning. I know I am never going to be perfect. I am not expecting myself to be I just want to try harder to do better. Then I question myself…is this works? You don’t get to heaven by your works but is it wrong thinking to try to improve your character by behaving in better ways? Isn’t this what we are supposed to try to do? Can you understand what I am trying to ask here? I don’t know if I am doing a good job getting my questions out here. Am I asking the wrong questions?

Other changes in our home are daily family prayer. I am amazed by the goodness in my children’s desire for this too. If someone takes one bite of food before grace is said my SS says aren’t we going to pray? Last night he said he wanted to start (we all pray together at this time) and he said I want to thank you God for helping me have a better relationship with Jilly. If you only knew how HUGE this was. 3 years ago I was worried my H and I’s M might not survive because of problems in my SS and my R. We went to family counseling for this and the therapist told us that the problem wasn’t really between SS and me but rather between H and me and that my resentment was misdirected. I am so mad at myself that it took me so long to figure this out but I am at least glad that through counseling we did develop a beginning and over time that has grown so much. As I mentioned before, when this A happened my son (I really don’t like to call him my stepson because I love him as my child and mean no disrespect or think in any way that his mom is not his mom…just that I love him as my own.) proved a loyalty to me that I had no idea he was capable of. Our relationship has grown so much deeper this summer. I am so grateful to God for allowing me to love this child. He talks to me so much now. I see both the kids seeing changes and their behavior towards us is so different as a result of all that has transpired over the last 5 months that one would think they would be acting out…and they were before the A was exposed but since the healing process and the spiritual rebirth both kids seem so much more grounded and happy. They seem more confident and are more able to come to us and talk to us and be honest with us about their feelings.

My H just as I am writing this asked me if our DD was going to go to Sunday school with his parents this weekend. (She has been going with them for several years but our son hasn’t wanted to go.) I said I wasn’t sure because the kid’s program goes on a hiatus for summer. They have VBS and other stuff but not regular Sunday school. So he is emailing to check but then I said I was hoping that we would bring the kids with us to new church and he said yes that is what is going to happen. I said I thought our son might enjoy it and then my H said to my somewhat surprise that he wasn’t giving him an option of not going. He said he will be telling the kids we are going as a family and this in one hour a week that we will spend together in church…all of us. Talk about becoming the spiritual leader of our family. I am so proud of him. I see my husband becoming emotionally and spiritually stronger everyday. I see him watching me change in my R with God too and I see how this is so powerful in our marriage and our family. There is just so much happening right now in our life that I am counting my blessings in ways I never knew I could. I think that something happened when I told my H that if he wanted to quit his job and we had to sell the house whatever we had to do to make sure he was okay and that our M survived that he saw something he had not seen before and this allowed him to see the depth of my faith in God and in us. I think this has given him new respect and faith to know that God would give me the courage to say that I would give up every earthly possession we had to make this work. I think seeing this change in me made him see the depth of my faith and willingness to hand it over to God and let him show us the way because ever since then he seems to get stronger each day.

There is so much more to say about what is happening in our lives little things…big things. Remind me to tell about my H and my children’s NIV. It is a small thing but it is also a huge thing. Remind me to tell about our turtle…and how God sees the sparrow fall and how He shows us in so many ways. Remind me to tell about how my H’s best friend since childhood saved a man’s life this week. Remind me to share the change in my R with my H’s XW. I am amazed at the grace that has happened and am blessed to have this extend to this R too. There is some very powerful stuff that has happened with this R and how God is working in me in ways that I never imagined and how all of these extensions bring our family and M that much closer. A weight I have been carrying for so long in my life has been lifted and God has given me so much peace of mind and I have so much faith now that I am living in His words that through Christ all things are possible. I am just amazed at what happens when you start living your life in truth.

It is literally pouring out of me. I know with each post I share I feel as though I let go of some of the old baggage and am filled with new blessings. I thank you so much for sharing this journey with us and for helping us to grow in so many ways. I feel moments of such grace and security in my life that I have not felt before. I am happy for what He has given me and I am so grateful that He loves us so much that he gave his only son to die for our sins so that in the end if we accept Him that we are graced by His forgiveness and accepted into His arms forever.

I used to not like the term “born again” Christian. I realize now that is a beautiful thing. I will not be ashamed of this faith and I will not hide it from anyone either. I never knew how what seems like one small step could be such a huge leap.

It is a good thing that God doesn’t get tired because he is working overtime in our lives right now. I know that he has been working hard for a long time to bring me home and how I know that He can heal us so no matter how broken we are.

Keep praying for us. God Bless You. Also please tell Mrs. FH that we are so grateful for the time that you have selflessly shared to help strangers and it has not gone unnoticed.

FH + MM,

I am not doing so good. We had a mixed weekend. Some really miraculous things happened and some more disclosures of truth came out too.

On the plus side my H came in last night as I was putting my daughter down for bed crying and telling me that he really gave himself over to God and for the first time he really felt HIS presence. It was very emotional for him and a good thing.

I stood up to my dad regarding my M and I felt strong about that.

My H called the FOW husband and sincerely apologized to him. He asked him if there was anything he could do to make amends to him and the FOW STBXH asked my H if he could be his friend because he doesn't have any. We agreed that we will be a friend to this man who is lonely. He is a very nice man and he needs support. He is a strong christian and so this may be a good person for my H to be friends with. I don't know. I am fine with it.

We are moving forward but there is so much left to do. My H and I had our first fight since D-day on Sunday. I had to disclose that I was the person that had fwd. the emails. Yes, I hacked in and I fwd. them to myself. I thought it would seem like the OW sent them instead they wound up blaming FOWH. I have felt so guilty and horrible about this for so long. After my H made several more serious disclosures about his R with FOW (nothing PA just some other pretty bad stuff...stuff that he was more worried about me finding out than the A itself. I don't want to go into a bunch of details but it involved drugs that could have killed my H. He thought I would leave him for sure if I found this out.)

Finding out that he has all along been terrified that I would leave him still makes me so sad because somewhere along the way I conveyed that I didn't have unconditional love for him. I think we are closer than we have ever been but the closeness doesn't come without growing pains. His first reaction to me hacking was that I had every right and that he wasn't mad but then he got overtired and he launched into our old pattern of discussion. You had no right...I don't know if I can be married to someone who doesn't trust me...I am going to put all the passwords and locks back on everything.

About an hour later he got down on his knees and sincerely apologized about his behavior. He went back to his stance that I had every right to know and that I did it to save our M. He was so mad at himself for treating me that way again. He is changing so much...growing as a man. I was very remorseful for snooping and lying about it too. I told him what I felt at the time was that I was terrified that he was going to leave me and that I needed to know how deep he was in so I would have a clue what I was up against.

I find it odd that the one thing we both seem to be terrified of is that the other one of us will abandon the M. We are both working toward showing each other that we won't.

All I know is that it is God that is getting me through this because I know I am so emotionally and physically tired that I couldn't get through this without him.

I am living with the mess in my house. I have always kept a very clean house...Right now I would rather have a healthy R with God than a clean house. I would rather have a good M than a clean house.

I feel overwhelmed at work. There are a lot of changes this year causing elementary teachers to do a bunch of switching of kids which is what they do a jr. high but not elementary so our day is broken up so disjointed. We are over enrolled at my grade level as it is and now unless they make some changes some of us will have upwards of 40 kids for language arts which is way over the cap of 32. We literally do not have the physical space to do this. I took on a lot last year before I new of the A and now I have a lot on my plate. We have a new principal who I sat on the interview committee to hire and I really wanted her to get hired so I want to do a good job for her. The admin. for the last 4 years has taken our school from a once very awesome work environment to one where the school culture almost completely died. Now with the breaking of the site into 2 schools and all the changes it is just a lot of work stress too.

I start another graduate class in Sept. for my master's in education. I already took the summer off. I am not sure if I take another term off if I will ever go back and I want to do this. I want the education that will allow me to make a move into admin. if and when I am ready for it.

I am also overwhelmed at home. Although my H and I are better in many ways we are just overwhelmed with some of the day to day. I am trying to take some of the load off my H as he needs rest. He is getting sick from the stress. He isn't getting enough rest. He also has a new principal and she asked him to take on a video montage project for back to school night. He did an awesome job but anyone who knows anything about this kind of work knows it is 40+ hours to do a good 5 minute video. He is amazing at what he does but he is overtired from this too.

I feel like I am complaining about little things and I ask myself am I being shallow or human? I feel like I am so needy of God. I lean on him for everything. I am working hard on eradicating my old disconnecting behaviors. I know this might not make sense but for me a way I have coped with fear of abandonment in the past is to disconnect emotionally so that I won't get hurt...well guess what I see now. Maybe that behavior has hurt me worse. Pretending everything is okay and putting on a happy face when I am not OKAY is not going to get me any real healing and recovery. I know God sees me for who I am and what I have been doing and he is leading me to choose differently. I am so scared sometimes.

Part of this fear comes from over medicating myself in the past with prescription meds. I have been weaning myself off of these. Both my H and I have been doing this so see this as something we did to allow ourselves to disconnect. My FOO are a little to pro prescription meds and I see where I was taught to believe that this is a viable solution. Unfortunately even if you do have a condition that warrants some use of these meds it isn't a blanket invitation to mask your feelings out. Just because a doctor prescribes too many meds for me doesn't mean I should be taking them so my H and I have committed to getting off. So far it is going well but I know that is part of the reason I feel more tired...overwhelmed etc. I am not saying I don't any meds right now but I just don't really need as many. We are doing a slow but steady progressive taper. We have made really good progress but again when you have used this as a coping mechanism for years there are bond to be some growing pains as we no longer medicate those feelings.

I also started chain smoking over the summer right after D-Day. I was already smoking again but nowhere near what I did over the summer. UGggggghhhhhh. It is good for me to be back at work regarding this as it definitely limits to non school hours. I am a closet (well sort of) smoker. I want to quit smoking by next summer. I know that sounds like a long way off but I am trying to be realistic about doing one thing at a time. There is no magic wand that is going to swoop down and immediately solve this. I am okay with this right now because I know that God has already helped me get where I am now and he will continue to help me to stop with these unhealthy behaviors.

I feel like I was as close to the verge of a total nervous breakdown right after the A and if it I had not let go and given my life back to God that I might not even be here today. He is my salvation...my rock. The only thing that gives me the strength to put one foot in front of the other and have faith that everything is going to be okay. I know the work I am doing and the work ahead. I know each day I become stronger in my R with God is one day I become stronger in my life...my M...my family..job...everything.

If you have any advice please share. I need support right now. If you can suggest some scripture that might be good right now please let me know. The series the pastor is doing at church is very good. It is about rest...and why God created rest for a reason...so we can connect with him. I know He knows. He sees my heart and He will not abandon me.

No, Jilly, you are not asking the wrong questions. There are no "wrong" questions when you don't understand things. There are things that I still "question," but they tend to more along the lines of things that God has not chosen to fully reveal, and I trust God in those areas to know and to do what it right according to His will.

The idea you may want to think about is what the father of the demon possessed boy said to Jesus: "But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us." [color:"red"]"'If you can'?" [/color] said Jesus. [color:"red"]"Everything is possible for him who believes."[/color] Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" (Mark 9:22b-24, NIV, emphasis added)


Okay, so let's talk a little about your question about "works." You may be confusing two things here.

1. There are NO works that anyone can do to gain salvation from God and freedom from the penalty of sin....eternal separation from God in He11. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NIV, emphasis added.

2. The "works" that James refers to are a result of becoming "born again." They come from a true surrender to God that results in WANTING to obey God and to do things that honor God, as any child wants to do things that please his/her father. It does NOT change or affect their status as being their father's child, it is a result of BEING that child.

James put it this way:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder.

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:14-19,26 NIV, emphasis added)

Jilly, the point that James is making is that while the demons KNOW who God (and Christ) is, they "shudder" because they will NOT surrender their lives to Him. They KNOW who He is, but that knowledge does not result in a transformed life that willingly surrenders to God and that wants to "do good" according to God's will. It is "EASY" for someone to claim to be a Christian, and we do NOT have God's ability to "see the heart" directly for verification that they ARE "born again." But the "fruits of the spirit" should be the natural outcome of a changed life and should be visible to others. [color:"red"]"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."[/color] (Matthew 7:20 NIV, emphasis added)

There WILL be fruit. But the fruit will either be of Satan or of God, of the fallen sin-natured flesh or of God.

[color:"red"]"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, ' I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" [/color] (Matthew 7:21-23 NIV)

There are many, Jilly, who claim to be Christians and base their belief NOT on the sufficient and complete work of Jesus Christ, but on their own works to "merit" salvation. Jesus made it clear that not only is that "bad" theology, He NEVER knew them, they were never truly saved and born again. "For ALL have sinned," means that we CANNOT earn our way to heaven and no amount of "good works" will even get Jesus to recognize us, let alone grant us life in heaven with Him. "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6 NIV, emphasis added)

Works done to "earn" one's way into heaven, no matter how "good," are not "good enough" because they put the individual ahead of God. They are done for self, not for God. They are done for self-esteem, not God's esteem.

But the works that flow from a surrendered life are in response to God's love for us as a natural result of our faith in God through Jesus Christ, and a sincere thankfulness for what God did for us in rescueing us from the bondage of sin.

Earlier, in point 1, I referenced Ephesians. Let me here "add" the verse that immediately follows what was already quoted, because it "lays to rest" once and for all this issue of "works" being for salvation OR for the natural result of a child who loves their heavenly Father.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10 NIV, emphasis added)

Jilly, since you have begun reading your Bible, you might find it very beneficial to read the entire book of Ephesians. There are very powerful truths taught in that book such as: "For you were once darkeness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord." (Ephesians 5:8-10 NIV)

Now let's go back, briefly, to your question regarding the 10 Commandments. The short answer is "yes," if you consider it sin, it is sin in your life. "Looking at a beautiful woman and liking what you see" is NOT the same thing as harboring lust and mentally calculating how you could "have her." One of the reasons that we HAVE marriage is so that our natural human emotional response of "lust" can be directed SOLELY toward our spouse. We WANT our spouse fully, and there is nothing wrong with that INSIDE the boundary of marriage.

The PURPOSE of the 10 Commandments, aside from teaching us truths about God, is to show all mankind that no matter how "perfect" or "good" they think they are (even if they are sincerely trying to live a "good life") we fail to meet God's standard of NO sin at any time. It convicts us that we are ALL sinners, in need of God's grace, because we are incapable of saving ourselves through our own "good works."

The point that is made about the Commandments is that if anyone has broken even one of them, they are as guilty as if they had broken all of them. That IS what our sin-nature is all about. We are incapable on our own, no matter how much we might want to deceive ourselves, of being "good enough" in God's eyes. ONLY through Jesus Christ, who the Father provided as the ONLY way for us to be saved and reconciled to God through what Jesus did FOR us, CAN we be saved. ALL other "religions" of the world are "works" based. Christianity is "done for us" based. It is a gift of God to us that we don't merit and can't earn on our own.

I hope that helps a little.

God bless.

FH,

I think I really understand what you are getting at regarding "works". I think what you are saying and what God's word tells us about works is that works for the sake of works isn't the way. Changing behavior however because of change in relationship with God is a different kind of work. The deep inner spiritual work that I have been doing isn't for someone else...it's for me and God. It is hard work sometimes when you really "see" your truth.

When I stop and listen quietly to what God is telling me I am able to look at myself and my sins with acceptance. Not because sinning is good or right but because I know that God sees my heart and He forgives me for all of it. The lies I have told myself over and over God shows them to me. I am able to see the tangle web I wove to survive without Him. Without him and living in truth I had to create other coping mechanisms to just be okay with myself.

With all that has transpired since the A...the total and raw breakdown of me to my core..physically, emotionally, and most importantly spiritually I just let go. Letting go was never an option for me before. Push it down...keep going...don't think about it...don't go there ever ever that was my way before. I masked everything not just to the world but to myself. I felt like I had to be "in control" of everything all the time. If I started feeling anything uncomfortable I would do something to stop feeling that way...overmedicate with prescription meds...get busy cleaning house or fill up my time with some kind of work or simply tune out and disconnect. I had pretty much stopped crying.

I literally convinced myself that crying was weak and that belief was reinforced in my marriage. My H would tell me through the years that he couldn't "talk" to me when I was "like that". So I stopped. I cried maybe once or twice a year. I found the only acceptable reason for crying was that I missed my mom. This crying was tolerated and comfort was given for this. For the most part I wouldn't allow myself to go there...to cry. Whenever I would allow myself to cry it would last for a long time and then be hard for me to stop even thought I hardly ever allowed myself to do this when I did afterwards I always felt a certain amount of relief. My H would explain to kids that mama just misses her mama and I rarely allowed myself to even do this. If I felt like this I would tell myself to stop... I was being weak. Buck up...medicate...get busy...don't think about it. This is about as unhealthy as you can get.

Since the A we have both cried more in the last few months than we have in the past 11 years. When you are stripped down before God there is a lot to cry about. When you accept what has happened as a result of your distance and disconnection from God you know how bare you are. And when you cry in this time..in this way you feel God's arms holding you and you know God is my father. As God's child I am allowed to cry these tears and to be given the comfort a parent gives their child. Just as I say to my own kids when they are hurting or crying...it's okay..mama's here God is giving this comfort to me and to my H. Because God gives this to us we are also able to give this to each other as well.

This surrendering to God is both the easiest and the hardest thing I have ever done. Easy because I really know I cannot do this work...live my life without him. Hard because even though He gives me grace, mercy, comfort, and forgiveness he also shows me the truth and the truth is hard to look at. To see so clearly how far I have driven my life into the ditch without him and to see all that that encompasses is so much. To live in truth..to stop lying to myself and to accept the reality of all the things I have done to myself just to get through life is hard to look at...but at least it's honest.

God isn't pointing the finger at me and saying "shame on you horrible sinner." He says to me "Child, finally you see I have been here all the time. Finally you see the truth that you cannot do this without me." Just as I might guide my own child to see something another way...He gives me the grace to accept what I have done and permission to let it go and just as he healed people in the Bible and then said to them..."Go and sin no more." he does this for me. FH I see what you mean when you repeat Jesus blood covered all of our sins. He paid the price so I can be forgiven. Lack of self worth doesn't change this. Jesus did this for us. Of course none of us is worthy of this. We are all sinners. Refusing this sacrifice that was made for us is the most shameful thing I could do.

I see this work work that I am doing as the single most important work I will ever do. Without this work no amount of IC or MC will ever "fix" the problems. This work is the basis of what all my other work will come from. I will never be able to heal myself or my M without this work first. I now see why earlier posts were stating that there was an order to the work I need to do. It is very clear to me now why this order matters. Without my R with God first no other R's will ever prosper. I accept that I will never stop sinning. I also see that this work is what allows me to try to obey God's laws.

For example I have broken the commandment..."Thou shalt not take the Lord thy God's name in vain." many many times. Because of the work I am doing in my R with God I am able to recognize this sin and to really really try to stop doing it. When I made the choice to try to stop doing this first I had to become aware of how much I was doing it. Then I had to correct myself every time I did...like be present about doing it and immediately correct and ask for forgiveness from God for doing it. I have kept at this work not only because this is what is God's law but because I want to live by this. I know this is only one commandment but it is a start. I have for the most part been able with God's help and conscious effort to stop this. I told my H that I was going to do this. This became such a part of my vernacular that I said it without thinking about it for so long that I was no longer even thinking about it. Is this a small thing...maybe to some. Not to me. It is following God's law and I can do it with Him.

I read the other commandments and see how much they truly encompass. It will be work to try to live by these but this is what God commands me to do and I can work to do this. I can never do the real work of helping others unless and until I do my own work (take the plank from my own eye).

I know Satan is really mad right now. He is so mad that he can't have me or my H unconditionally anymore. I tell Satan everyday to get away from me. I pray for God to protect me from evil. God gives me the strength to go on. I see what Satan is doing. He cannot get us one way so he will keep trying to get us other ways. I am so aware and so humbled by God's gifts to me that because God is in charge of my life now he shows me what Satan is doing. He whispers in my ear and I listen with the whole of my heart to Him. This doesn't mean I am not sinning or making mistakes it just means that I see what is happening and am staying in that truth.

An honest question...as I wonder how this will go. As I get stronger in my R with God and make life changes and "feel" stronger I am scared that if I feel stronger then I am at risk for actually becoming weaker. I don't want to ever get to a place where I feel complacent in my R with God. Because I am so broken right now I literally cannot do anything without Him. I don't ever want to feel false strength that I am strong enough to do this without Him. How do I do this...become stronger without becoming weaker? Does this make sense?

I am going to be asking you more questions regarding the commandments because although I know what they mean literally I think God is showing me that they encompass some subtext too...in other words for example: "Thou shalt have no other god ME." I know what that means literally but I am also thinking that this means not to worship anything else like TV etc. Correct me if I am way off here and if you can see what I am trying to ask you here. Perhaps TV watching (I don't mean any I mean as an escape and a disconnect mechanism) is this the first or second commandment or neither? I use TV watching as an example for ME because I was doing a lot of this to disconnect. I don't mean I am not going to ever watch any TV again. I have just radically altered the amount I was watching. God has better things for me to be doing with my time.

I think what I am trying to get at is that I feel like God is telling me to look deeper at my actions not of specifically what I was doing but deeper level "why" I was doing those things and when the answer is so clear...to disconnect to disengage then I see why and why I must focus on the deeper why and work on the why not the what of my actions but by reducing or eliminating the activities that allowed me to disconnect I stay in the present and in the truth with what God wants. Am I making sense?

Okay I have more questions but these are some for now.

An aside...I noticed that MM hasn't posted since the 9th of Aug. I haven't been here long enough to know if this is typical for him and since I cannot contact him privately out of respect for him and also honor to my own M I am still concerned about him. Are you close enough to contact him and just check and make sure he is okay. Maybe you already have. If so can you please just post that he is okay no details needed. I have been really praying for him because I know he is also going through a lot. I know he is strong in his faith with God so I know he is "okay" that way just both of you have helped me so much that I notice his absence.

FH, I just wanted to say I appreciated your well-thought-out post about the true relationship between faith and works. This is something that has caused so much controversy (even among SDA's), and yet it is so simple when you just look at the whole picture the Bible gives.

Good works DO NOT lead to salvation, ever.

Salvation DOES lead to good works, always.

I have known people at both extremes, both the ones that thought all they had to do to be saved was to "be nice people", and those on the other end who do not believe that Jesus is able to keep us from falling in every respect. "We cannot ever be perfect," instead of the truth, "We are not perfect now, but He is able to make us perfect, and is working on it."

The Bible is so clear. We are saved by grace, and the outpouring of God's Spirit leads to more and more good works, guiding us along the path to sanctification - the place of being so surrendered to God that any sin is repugnant to us because we stand always in His presence.

I pray we all come to know the perfection He has in store for us.

Just a quick answer to your questions.

It makes perfect sense.

The "how to" is this: Put on the full armor of God. Daily, for you go to battle every day you are alive.

I am attempting to post something on that full armor of God thing in response to a request on the Recovery forum. You might find it helpful too, so I can let you know when I finally get it up. It's sort of a Mortarman type of thing where I'm "working on it" because it's fairly long and the length is not all that conducive to MB forum posts.

God bless.

P.S. I'm not sure where MM is, but he has a lot on his plate these days and will be back when he can.

Neak - Amen to that!

Neak,



Thank you for so eloquently stating what I was trying to ask.



Also,

Thanks for sharing this too. I am not sorry that I was raised SDA because so much of what I learned was based in scripture. I will never be sorry about that. SDA was my whole life for many years...church, SDA schools, SDA campmeeting, SDA pathfinders...bible study, prayer meeting etc. I believed but I didn't have faith. This isn't the SDA's fault. I see this now. They are just like any other denominational congregation with people on both sides of the debate etc. I am old enough to understand this now but I wasn't when I was younger so I became disillusioned.

Faith has lead me back to God. I am now so grateful to have the spirtual foundation that I do because although I am rusty...it isn't lost to me.

If you are SDA would you answer some SDA based questions for me. If you aren't or you don't want to I will respect that.

Thanks again.

FH,


Is this the Bobpure thread? If so I just started following that one or maybe there are 2 but will not post there just read...you understand out of respect for others.


PS. Thanks for update on MM.

P.S.S. I got 2 new NIV todays. One is the Couples' Devotional Bible and the other one is Life Application Study Bible. They both have stuff I needed plus the Life one has digitally animated bible and encyclopedia for the computer. I ordered the MacArthur too. If I am correct now I thought MacArthur was NIV but it is NKJV yes? If not then I ordered the wrong one. I know it seems like why am I needing this many Bibles. Answer because I need 3 for my personal study, 2 for my study with H, 1 for the car, and one for school. You know what is going to happen though...right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I am going to find one that will become the one I want to use all the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well at least I didn't feel one bit guilty about spending this money. God is good.

Jilly, Zondervan tightly controls publishing rights to the NIV, so no, the the MacArthur Study Bible is not NIV. You can get one directly from Zondervan if you want yet another one to add to your growing collection.

And, yes the thread I was referring to is Bob Pure's thread on Recovery. However, when I post that stuff it will be on a new thread I will create at that time.

God bless.