MM,

Yes he does. I have moved Him into the pilot's seat. This is a choice I want to make. I have made poor decisions because I haven't trusted God or myself. I recognize how my adoption has played into this. LA makes a good point about my FOO. My FOO are fixers not just my dad but my mom too. My mom the rescuer, my dad the fixer. Both of these R's taught me that I was NOT able to take care of myself or make decisions for myself therefore I have allowed others to take my control away. I choose to give God the liberty to lead me in the choices that are right for me now. This will not be an overnight transition for me with the FOO. This is 38 years of held beliefs that I am incapable of making a choice for myself therefore others must choose for me.

An example of this was my dad and SM told me not to marry my XH. They told me I didn't love him. I married him anyway. Then when I got a D they were happy because all along they were right. Even if they were right they should not have been so happy to be right. They are subtly doing it again. I am aware of what they are doing and I see what they are doing. My dad and SM are not walking with God. They have chosen to no longer be believers. This doesn't make them bad people because they are NOT. They are loving, caring parents. However I have allowed them to control me in the past and I have to deal with how to change the dynamics in my R with them.

My parents divorced when I was 4 or 5. I lived with my mom and saw my dad a lot until he started dating my SM. My R with D changed a lot then. My sister and I would spend the night at my dad's a lot before he was with my SM. I am not sure why for me I stopped wanting to go to see him when he moved in with her and they got married. My sister had no problem going and spending the night. She isn't adopted. I had this attachment to my mom and felt unsafe and insecure when I was at my dad and SM. I have more attachment issues is what I perceive as why I didn't want to go. Also my dad was very affectionate to SM physically and not so much to us kids. My mom was the opposite...very affectionate. My mom told us all the time I love you. My dad did not. Doesn't mean he didn't feel it just didn't say it often when were little. I tell my own kids I love you everyday.

When I was in the third grade my mom moved us to another state. . Unfortunately she was in a LTA with a MM. My mom, the OM, the OMW were neighbors and good friends. The OMW was SAHM. My mom worked at the hospital and sometimes worked days and sometimes nights. The OMW was our babysitter. We spent a lot of time with this family.

When my mom worked days (summers etc.) we were there all day. The OM and his wife had 3 kids. My sister and I were placed on a job chart wheel with these kids and did jobs like cleaning the bathroom, pulling weeds, etc. We ate dinner over there often (my mom too). We went on vacations with this family. I never liked this man but I did like his wife. She was always nice to me.

I hated spending the night there. I never was a bed wetter. One night when I was sleeping on the floor in one of the kids bedrooms I wet the bed (sleeping bag). I didn't wake anyone up to tell them. The OM son was a chronic bed wetter and they had ordered some kind of device they hooked up to him that would sound an alarm and wake him up. I stayed in that wet sleeping bag all night. I was so ashamed. I was also scared to tell and didn't tell until my mom came the next morning. I told my mom in secret and she took me, my sister and the sleeping bag home. She gave me a bath. This is the only time I ever remember wetting the bed.

Sometime during my second grade year (I must have been around 7) We were spending the night at the OM house again. I was sleeping on the couch in the living room and awoke to hear the three of them arguing in the kitchen. I don't remember all the details of the argument except that there was crying by both my mom and the OMW and that I overheard the OMW telling my mom that she slept with her husband. I don't think then I really understood what that meant but I did know whatever it was that it was really bad and that my mom had done something wrong. I was terrified. I wanted to scream STP YELLING AT MY MOMMY. At 38 I can clearly see why she was being yelled at. At 7 I only felt pain for my mom. It is important to mention that I was more emotionally attached to my mom than anyone else.

I remember crying on the couch. I must have been crying loud enough because at some point my mom came in the room. My sister was sleeping in the other room. She got my sister and took us across the street to our house. We never talked about this when I was a kid. At some point some sort of R continued with my us and this family. Maybe the A stopped. I don't know. My feeling is that maybe it did not.

Coincidentally, they moved out of state. We also moved to the same state about a 30 minute drive away. This certainly did not help me with my R with my dad. It was a 17 hour drive away. We flew to see him a couple times a year. I hated going. My sister and I would board a plane together and be assigned to a stewardess as this was the practice of how children flew without an adult. Neither one of my parents were actively involved in the church at this time. We lived in this state for 4 years. This separation from my dad splintered our R. Every time we would fly to visit my dad they would ask us a gazillion questions about my mom. Did she have a BF etc. I hated this questioning and my SM made many DJ's about my mom. I think not only did she do this intentionally but in an effort to try to make my dad look like the better parent and that my mom was somehow inherently flawed. This made me want to be around them even less. Sometimes my dad would tell her to knock it off and stop bashing my mom. He didn't really bash my mom but he never defended her either. His biggest DJ about my mom was that she had took us away from him. He accepts NO responsibility for the splintering of our R with him. We began to see him more after we moved back but I flat out refused to spend the night there period. I am sure this hurt my dad's feelings.

MM I see an important message to you here in how you handle any discussions you have with your children regarding their mom. I sense from another post you made that you aren't DJing their mom to them. They don't need you to do this. They can see on their own and make their own conclusions. Remember that no matter what she has done she is their mother. This is a powerful bond. You also have a powerful bond with them. If they ask you about their mom's behavior be honest but in a way that shows that you are not disrespecting of her only her choices. Be very clear when you are doing this. This is a gift that you can give to your children. Allowing them to come to their own conclusions. Do they know of the A? Is wife still active in A? If so I would encourage you to insist with your wife (not in the presence of your kids)that under NO circumstances do you want your children around this OM if in fact she is still in the A. I don't know what the details of your current sitch are so if you could please tell me a bit it would be helpful.

We had some contact with the OM and his family but not very much. When we first moved there we lived in an apartment. At some point my mom bought a house. She proceeded to have another LTA with her realtor. I didn't know at the time that he was a MM. I liked this man very much. He took us places...to the movies, bowling, etc. I don't know when I found out he was married but it was long after this R was over. I do remember once though that I walked in on them having SF in my mom's bed. I remember two things vividly about this. The bedspread was deep purple and my mom shoving his head under the covers and telling me to get out of her room. At some point this A broke off. I have no idea if the OMW ever knew. Many years later I would learn that during the A my mom became pregnant and had an abortion. It was at this time I learned that he was a MM. When I was a child I remember being sad when they broke up because I had always liked this man. I remember being told that he was getting back together with his wife. I don't know if he was separated from his wife at the time my mom and him were in this A or not. I do think I thought at the time that he was divorced so of course for him to get back together with his wife sparked an idea in my sister and I that maybe my mom and dad could get back together. I didn't seem to register to us that this couldn't ever happen since my dad was remarried but I do remember my sister especially fantasizing that this could happen.

After this A ended my mom got back into the SDA church and pretty much stopped dating altogether. She put my sister and I in SDA school. We went to church every Saturday. (SDA attend church on Saturday not Sunday. It is their belief that the seventh day is Saturday not Sunday. On the seventh day he rested. Thus the belief that Saturday not Sunday was the sabbath.) We lived and breathed this church. All of our lives revolved around this church. We went to church every Saturday. We went to prayer meeting. We went to potluck. We went to Pathfinders (SDA youth group). My mom developed new friends. SDA friends. I liked this church very much. I loved going. I adored this church family.

When I was in the sixth grade my mom's dad had a heart attack. He was not well. My mom was flying to see him quite a bit. She was their only living child. She had a brother who died when he was 33 from some kind of heart thing. It was a very sudden death. He told his wife he didn't feel good. (He was never sick.) She took him to the hospital and he died that day. They had two adopted daughters. I don't know how old we were but it was before we moved out of state but after my parents split up so I must have been 6 maybe.

Anyway my mom was flying back and forth and we would stay with church members while she was gone. He had a stroke and became paralyzed on one side and lost most of his speech. It was decided that she would need to move back temporarily.(I think the time line was that we would be going for about 6 months.) We would live with my grandparents. They were devout SDA. We never moved back. My mom eventually went up to sell the house. We stayed with them maybe a year before my mom her own place there.

My mom was an RN so she felt she needed to be there to help with my grandpa's care. I loved my grandpa very much. He was always a hard worker. He owned a dairy for much of his life and then later went on to start a backhoe business. He was always very physically active so this stroke was very hard on him. He would get frustrated because he could put his words together right and he had to use a cane to walk.

My grandma on the other hand was a shining example of someone who professed to be a christian but whose actions were so far from Christlike that I remember a feeling I had about her. She was judgemental and hypercritical of my mom. Although I have no doubt my grandma loved my mom she told her often in many ways that she was NOT good enough. We went to SDA school here as well and went to SDA church etc. There were many subtle differences in this church. Being a divorced, single mother was frowned upon by many. There were also many good members of this congregation as well. This is where the true beginning of my crisis of faith began to occur.

This is where I currently am in my R with God. I am seeing like you mentioned that my R with God is personal and one on one. I think I talk to God more right now than I ever have. I feel him with me. I see that I do not have to EARN the right to be forgiven. It doesn't mean that I think I get a free pass or will be immune from the consequences of my actions. I see I am living with the consequences of my actions. I see where I have gone wrong and am working with God on where to go next. My H was also struggling with a crisis of faith. He too was raised in a church and brought up as a believer. He had also become disillusioned with organized religion. He is also renewing his R with God and we are openly talking about this. I think this is good. I think we are both wanting the same thing when it comes to a R with God. I see God also working in my H. My H is asking God for help now too.

I have a question about something I have seen posted over and over here again. The idea that once a cheater always a cheater and if he cheated with you he will cheat on you. This is a genuine question. If this is always the case then why have I who was once a cheater now not cheater. I have never once entertained the idea that I would ever be unfaithful.

If this statement once a cheater always a cheater is fundamentally true then according to this theory I should be cheating too. If this is true then anyone who has ever had an A will always be a cheater and again commit adultery. But I see that many here have stopped this behavior of cheating and know they will never cheat again. Even though my crisis of faith continued into this M I have never entertained the thought of being unfaithful. I knew when I was in my own A that it was wrong. I regret that my R with my H started out this way. I carried the belief that it was wrong into this M and have remained faithful. How do I make sense of this? Even when I was away from God I still did not cheat again. I am not exactly sure what I need answered here but there is something I need.

I do not think that my H and I's M can survive without God. I choose to believe that we both recognize this and are working on this together. How our faith and God can help us to work this out. I do not wish to D again. My H does not wish to D again. We have discussed this and have made a commitment to do everything we can to rebuild this M with God's help from the bottom up. We see there is no other way for the M to survive. Another D in our opinion is not in the best interest of our family. Many will disagree. This is their right. Some say that we should get back together with our previous spouses. None of us me, H, my XH, or his XW want this. So this leaves us with the choice of trying to save this M or getting a D. I choose saving the M. My H chooses saving the M. I ask God for answers. I think he is telling me to stay. Running away (my former MO) will not solve anything. It will just break up yet another family. I do not see this as God's will...another D. This is my belief and I choose to own this belief. I know there are many who will say I am wrong. I accept that. I am seeing that I need to stop letting others control my decisions and stop acting like a child who cannot make decisions. I need to let God guide me.

Your pastor story was extremely relevant to me. It represents many things to me about God and about family. It goes back to something that FH said about that we are all God's "adopted" children. This in and of itself is very important for me. I see this. This touches on something LA said All of it is related to my own belief that I was unworthy. I am working to stop judging myself and beating myself up and telling myself that I am unworthy of God's love or anyone Else's. I have to accept myself flawed as I am and know that God and others love me this way and I can accept this love to myself from myself, from God, from my H, and from my FOO. Each day that I give myself over to God I come to accept this more. It is a good thing.

Final question MM. Is this a closed thread for only you and me? I think that FH, LA, and many others have valuable contributions to make. Your son, me, LA, BO's husband...all adopted. The adoption factor and getting through my past beliefs about it seem important to me for growth. I didn't see anywhere where it was said that it was only for us but this has been told to me by Mr.W and BK. My understanding was that you were trying to create a safe environment for met to learn and grow. I see your comments about foodfighting. Foodfight will not help.

I do not have any false idea that I get a "free pass" here and that I will have to answer tough questions. I am more than willing to do that. I see the foodfight as detracting from the questions. I ask that as long as someone is someone is helping me stay on this journey that they be allowed to remain. They have perspective. I don't see rescuing going on here. I see the questions and answers that I am dealing with are relevant and important.

In another post you asked if what I was needing was help getting over my H's betrayal. Yes, that is one part but I think the more deeper part is me getting over my betrayal in my R with God, with self, and with FOO. I need help with all of this and this is what I am asking for help with. I ask that those that can help me do and those who can't ( I respect this) don't. Again I know there are many hard questions to answer and I am really trying to FINALLY get to my truth.

Okay..alot here JJ. But let me get to a few of the questions.

First, yes anyone can come in to this thread. But what I dont want is to be sidetracked right now with the issues that have confronted other threads. Not yet. So, some like FH have been helping move this in the right direction.

JJ...after reading your post just now, I realize this even more. Yo uare askign the right questions in here...surrounded by a lot of history lessons.

I am not belittling your past. We all carry our upbringing with us. But one of the issues I want you to begin to see is that your past is no excuse. That you dont HAVE to carry it with you, if you are a Christian. You can chose to be someone different. The new creation that Scripture speaks of.

You asked abotu "once a cheater, always a cheater." Here's the point...a cheater does so due to an addiction. An addiction to the feelings present between the OP and the WS. It is a drug!! Now, a drug addict that has been clean for 10 years is STILL a drug addict. They are still susceptible to the drug. They are weak in that area. It is why recovered alcoholics dont go to bars! Because it can trigger a temptation.

Just because you havent felt the urge yet does not mean you wont. With things rocky with you and your husband, and the fact that you have doen this before, leaves you ripe for an affair. Dr. harley even says that everyone is susceptible at some point. It is just that those that have already done it before will find it easier the second time around.

So, maybe you have put up some walls to help keep you from falling. or maybe you have moved into a close relationship with Christ. And allow Him to keep these problems away from you. Who knows? But know that you and your marriage are doubly susceptible (as you have seen) to this happening!.

So, let's leave all of your history, adoption, etc aside for just a minute. We will get to that. But as FH says...first things first!

So, you have answered that you are now trying to have that relationship with Jesus that you should have. You also admit that you know what has happened, and the start of this current marriage was wrong.

So, my next set of questions have to do with that. What do you think God's view of this current marriage is? (folks, please dont chime in on this one. I want her to answer this one and for us to work thru this one!) How do you resolve your marriage in light of Scripture?

Do you believe your marriage should be free from the consequences of what you and your husband did?

I ask these honestly, not because I am going to slam you. But because I need to know where you stand on this and where you believe God stands here.

So, let's talk about the basis of this marriage, and about expectations.

MM,

I am going to try to answer this by what I am now believing and not on past belief system. I think that my H and I must renew our vows within this new relationship with God. I believe that our marriage didn't start out with God therefore in order for it ever to be renewed with God's blessing is to renew our vows within new spirtual belief system. I see this. I think we will have to live with the consequences of our actions and will have much work ahead. Without God and our repentance and his forgiveness there is no hope. I don't think God can never bless our marriage. I think work must be done to make ammends again to all we have hurt. I think we have to remain steadfast and committed to God in order for this M to make it. I understand that I have grounds for a D based on my H's actions. That said I believe God knows what is really in our heart and he knows whether or not the repentance is real. My repentance is real. I cannot speak for my H. I only know what he has told me and what I see as a true spiritual change in him. I choose until I see otherwise to believe that his actions are showing a man that wants to walk with God. As we speak he is confessing his current A to his dad. I would say that is God moving in him. To live in his truth. To be accountable for his sins not just to God or me or or kids or the FOW and her H. He has made ammends to all of these people. I see this action of telling his dad (someone who is a believer and someone my H trusts to give him the hard truths) as a sign that he no longer wishes to be addicted. That he will tell those who will condemn his actions and help him spiritually.



No I don't. I think we will always have the consequences but that we can be forgiven for our sins and because of this we can start anew. Again this goes back to a spiritual cleansing and a renewal of vows based in current truths. I don't know if this belief is right or wrong but it is what I hold to be my truth with God.

I understand what you are saying but I am vowing to myself, God, my H and my children that I will choose not to do this again. I am keenly aware of this upheaval this behavior causes and I will Honor God and my M by not placing myself in any situation where this could happen. I did learn one thing from my own A that I allowed myself to go there. I choose not to go there again.

Mr. W - naaaa....I like to think of it as MM and I working in tandem with Christ. We are HIS servants, just as all true believers are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JustJilly – while you did not directly answer my previous questions about your belief in Jesus Christ, or your husband’s, I have read your response to Mortarman and have found your answer there. Therefore, I will now try to answer the questions you posed to me that I have left unanswered up to this point.



Yes, Jilly, that is what being “surrendered to God” is all about. It is in our “weakness” that God is able to show His strength. I’ll have more to say about that later because it is fundamental to surrendering both your life and your marriage to God, regardless of how either began.



[/i] Being a believer does not make one a better person than another. [/i]

That is correct. It makes one saved versus unsaved, redeemed versus unredeemed. A child of God versus a child of Satan. That reality IS “offensive” to many, because they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and are not a “new creation.”


I have witnessed firsthand many who claim to be believers and act in ways that seem far less "Godlike" than those who aren't. FH...can you try to explain this to me why this is. It has caused me a lot of frustration over the years. Why someone who claims to have God in their heart can treat other people with such disdain.

There are a couple of answers to this question, so let’s take them one at a time.

1. “Claiming to be a believer” is not the same thing as “Being a believer.” There are many who claim the title of “Christian” who are not truly saved. Some believe they are a Christian, but deny the fundamental truth of Christianity that one IS a Christian solely upon the grace of God and NOT by any works that we do or don’t do. They tend to see God’s commands as something they must DO in order to be a Christian rather than as something we DO (as in follows after) because of God’s love for us and our love for what He has DONE for us. This gets at the “new creation” concept that Scripture teaches. There is NOTHING that we can do, or need to do, in order to BE a Christian, saved and sealed for eternity in Christ Jesus. ALL that is required to be a Christian is to look upon Jesus and BELIEVE that He is the Son of God, who gave His life to redeem us as the Savior of the world, according to God the Father’s will.

2. Even believers are still struggling with our innate sin-nature. We remain incased in a sinful body, in a sinful world, subject to the temptations and desires that are contrary to the will of God. No one who becomes a believer is “instantly freed” from the capability of continuing to sin. What IS different is that the Holy Spirit WILL convict a believer of sin in their life. That is part of the Sanctification process. You may have heard of so-called “mature Christians.” I would contend that NONE of us are “mature” Christians. Rather, we are all “maturing” Christians, or at least we should be unless we continue to rebel against surrendering ALL of our lives to Christ. Thus, “human emotions” and even “Christian zealousness” become potential areas where we can sin when we give into them or misapply them. The current issue you are dealing with is one example of this sort of thing. This system is awash in all sorts of emotions, and they often control what is said and done. Also, marriage IS a covenant that was established by God with Adam and Eve. The intent of God was that marriage would be between one man and one woman, for life. But then sin entered the world and corrupted God’s “perfect plan” for marriage. So now we struggle with the effects of sin. It is very easy to take just one aspect of God and apply it to ourselves or to others, while at the same time ignoring the totality of God. When we “overemphasize” one attribute of God we can easily get into a list of “do this, don’t do that” as if the DOING or NOT DOING is more important than simply believing in Christ. From there to “justification by works” is just a small step. Most taking this position are “well meaning,” but they change “justification by faith” to “justification by works.” God has made it clear in His Word that “His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts.” To this end, while we as humans may not “like it” or think it’s “fair,” God has said that ALL sins of a believer are forgiven IF they simply look on Christ and believe in Him. When that happens (believing in Christ), “behold, the old has gone, the new has come.” What tremendous assurance this is for a believer, to KNOW that it is Christ who justifies us, not anything that we can do.





There is nothing wrong with organized religion, but we need to keep focused on the fact that all organized religion is made up of people who “have not yet received their glorified bodies” and are still subject to their own sin-nature and “fighting the fight” of surrendering to God’s will and superimposing their own will and calling it “God’s will.” Today, the single biggest “threat” to the one true church (composed of all believers wherever they may be) is the falling away from the simple Gospel message. What happens after that is a form of “Judiaising” of the Chrurch (organized religion) into “do’s and don’ts or you are not considered a Christian.” That is a very common assertion by many, but they themselves have moved away from the Gospel “once delivered” and “add” works that MUST be done, rather than works that flow from a believer in loving response to God for what He has done for “me, a wretched sinner.” There are even those who believe that you can know no assurance of your salvation and that you CAN even lose the salvation that God sealed you with when you “first believed.”




It is obvious to me that someone can attend church and not have God in their heart. Why is this?

The answer is really quite simple, “Form over Substance.” The Pharisees, for example were very good at this. In fact you “knew” they were “holy” simply by looking at them, because they all wore Phylacteries to declare their position. Many people can “look like” something they are not. It’s called “acting.”


[/b] Can one be a strong christian and have a good relationship with God and not attend church? [/b]

Yes, of course. There ARE circumstance where one cannot attend church, but for most of us, it’s simply putting “self” ahead of obedience to God. God has told us to NOT “forsake the gathering together of the saints.” Why? There are many reasons, but a couple of the most important ones are:

1. To “recharge your batteries” because all week long you are living in, working in, being exposed to, the “World.” It is easy to get “beat up and discouraged.” So being with fellow believers is “refreshing to the soul.”

2. To be instructed in the Word by those who God uses to teach His Word. None of us gains an “instant” understanding of all that is in God’s Word. It takes a lot of study to begin to understand many of the things that God would teach us, and for many of us, we simply don’t take, or don’t have, the time to do such study on our own. In fact, for many, all a Bible does is collect dust. It is seldom actually read. Very few have even read the Bible “cover to cover” even one time. Yet they think they have enough to take on Satan and the World. There is a passage in Scripture that speaks to this and we can go into that sometime if you wish. But essentially what it tells a Christian to do is to “put on the FULL armor of God so that we can STAND. It is hard to put on that armor when one doesn’t even know where it is or what it looks like. Church attendance helps in “equipping the saints” to put on that armor through knowledge.

3. Think of it this way, too, if it helps. Attending church is, for a Christian, analogous to attending school. A person CAN learn on their own, but the process is “speeded up” and more information is usually available, where an instructor is present who himself has already learned those subjects.

4. A fourth, and really the most important reason to attend church is because God’s intention for it to worship and glorify HIM. In doing that, He also richly blesses us in the exposition of His word so that we can grow closer in our walk with him, to be conformed to more “Christ-likeness.”






Yes, Jilly, they are all “legitimate questions.” Yes, you really need answers to them. God has told us that we are to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” (Mark 12:30) That is, according to Jesus (and I know of no higher authority), “The most important” commandment of all. The second one is: “The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:31)


Jilly, several have contended that your current marriage is an “abomination” and not “legitimate.” I want to assure you that neither condition is supported by God. ALL of us, regardless of who we are or what we have done in our past (sins), are forgiven of all sin and established as a “new creation” IN Christ and FOR Christ. There IS a “one flesh” state that is established in marriage, and the “two are no longer two, but one.” This IS a mystery of God that none of us fully understands, but that God nonetheless teaches IS truth. We create such a “one flesh” situation every time we have sexual intercourse with someone, thus the strong admonition to NOT behave in such a manner outside of marriage. But even when it IS outside of marriage, a “one flesh” condition is created. It IS as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman when He spoke to her (keeping in mind that Jews thought Jesus was doing something “against God” in even speaking to a “dirty Samaritan.”):

“He told her, [color:"red"] “Go and call your husband and come back.”[/color] “I have no husband,” she replied. Jesus said to her, [color:"red"]“You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”[/color] (John 4:16-18)

Divorce was rampant in Jesus’ day on earth. Yet Jesus acknowledges that the woman DID have “five husbands,” clearly recognizing that a marriage existed at those times. So what IS the “difference” in those marriages and “Christian marriages?” It is the standing of the husband and wife before God. The marriage is either “in Christ” or it is not. But it IS a marriage. ONLY through belief in Christ are the individual, or their marriage, sanctified by the blood of Christ. NO sin of the past is “excluded” from God’s forgiveness and sanctification of those who believe in Jesus Christ.

The consequences of past sin is a different issue, but it has nothing to do with one’s standing before the Lord or their current marriage’s standing before the Lord AFTER they believe in Jesus Christ and surrender themselves to Him. Suffice it to say that once someone believes, they will WANT to NOT do those things that are sin and contrary to God’s commands. Before that time, all they WILL want to do is whatever “their will” is and not what “God’s will” is.

That IS the idea that Jesus was declaring when He told the woman accused of adultery to “go and leave your life of sin.” It did NOT mean that she had to “move” or “divorce.” It meant that she had to start living for God and not self, for God’s will, not her own will. Likewise, Jesus convicted all of her “self-righteous” accusers with the simple statement, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” It is God who justifies, and He justifies solely upon our faith in Jesus Christ, nothing more and nothing less.

God bless.

FH,

Both my H and I are seeing know the power of this surrender and how we cannot do this alone. The weaker or powerless I feel the more I reach out and surrender it all to God. My H is really emotionally struggling right now. He had to call in sick for work today because he was crying a lot. He realizes he needs God's help. I am telling to believe that God does forgive. I forgive him. He is still so wracked with shame. This shame is breaking his spirit. I am choosing to ask him to give that shame over to God. Shame vs. guilt was discussed on another thread here. I believe there is a huge difference to the two. Guilt is about behavior or actions. Shame is about who we are as people. Shame is harmful.

I reminded him that God loves him exactly where he is right now and so do I. His recovery, my recovery, the recovery of our M is going to a process. It will not happen overnight. We are changing the very belief system that we grew up. One that told us that your works are what save you...not that forgiveness is granted just by repentance and asking.

This doesn't mean our actions will not change because I choose to believe our actions will change as a result of this new belief system. Our actions will be a manifestation of allowing God to lead to lead us. I pray for him for me for our family. I pray more than I ever have. I pray differently know. Is talking to God in your head praying? I think it is.

I have the Sarah Mclachlan Afterglow CD in my car. I bought it awhile ago but didn't really listen to it. Many of the songs on this CD could be seem to be about romantic love but right now these songs seem to represent God's love to me. The lyrics to one song called Push seem to represent how I am feeling about my R with God right now.

Push

Push

Every time I look at you the world just melts away
All my troubles all my fears dissolve in your affections
Youve seen me at my weakest but you take me as I am
And when I fall you offer me a softer place to land

Chorus
You stay the course you hold the line you keep it all together
Youre the one true thing I know I can believe in
Youre all the things that I desire you save me you complete me
Youre the one true thing I know I can believe

I get mad so easy but you give me room to breathe
No matter what I say or do cause youre too good to fight about it
Even when I have to push just to see how far youll go
You wont stoop down to battle but you never turn to go

Chorus

There are times I cant decide when I cant tell up from down
You make me feel less crazy when otherwise Id drown
But you pick me up & brush me off and tell me Im OK
sometimes thats just what we need to get us through the day

Chorus


Do you see how this can relate not only to romantic love but love God's love for us. This whole album has taken on a very spiritual meaning for me. Lately the music I seem most drawn to seems to represent this change I feel in my R with God. I know this may seem a bit off topic but when I was searching for the lyrics for this song (I have all her CD's and have listened to her music for a long time.) there was a section about her biography that I had never looked at before. I am choosing to see this as God's work. This is not a coincidence. It is not a coincidence that I found this information out today. This is God showing me that I am not alone in my story, my grief, and there is a spiritual nature to this particular CD that was not clearly as present in her other music...although glimpses are seen in other of her music.

This is what I found out about her history. She was born the same year I was. She is adopted. The album Afterglow was written while she was pregnant with her first child a daughter was who was born 5 month after her mom died from cancer. There are many parallels here to anyone who has followed this thread. I don't think I just happened to stumble across this today. I choose to believe that God knows what we need and when we let him he shows us something.



I see what you are saying here. I no longer have to live with the disillusionment of what I have witnessed in organined religion. I can choose to show my love to God and let go of the disillusionment and go to church with new belief system and see find my purpose there without allowing past preconceived beliefs to create hesitation. I can do choose differently. I have several friends who attend different churches. I can attend with each and find one I feel is where I need to be. God will guide me where to go. I believe this. This is a good idea yes?





FH, this and the paragraphs that follow to support this are showing me something I need to see. Thank you for sharing this with me as it brings more comfort then you can really know. I aligns with my the new spiritual belief system transformation that I am working on. I have 3 bibles. One is the NIV, one is called The Woman's Study Bible (the new KJ version given to me by my mom shortly before she died.) The other is The Message. I am reading the last 2 mostly. The first is one that I have had for a long time. I am not sure if this is a legitimate question but does the version matter? If so why? If so do you recommend a certain version?

Thank you FH for your way.

I said this in another post when I said MM has a way, FH has a way. LA has a way...etc. All of your ways are different and allow me to think about things with new eyes..new perspectives. I know it was suggested by some that this thread was only for MM and me but last night as I reread the this whole thread I saw nowhere where MM stated this. What I saw MM saying is sit back and watch how God will work in this thread. I see this. All of you are helping me develop parts of my relationships with God, H, adoption, and FOO. All of these are issues for me and I feel I need help with all of these. I thank you again for reminding me that we are all really God's "adopted" children. This was very powerful for me to read.

LA,

I have a questions for you about providing support for my H right now. I mentioned that he told his dad and now his mom about our current sitch and his A. They support us trying to stay together and work on M. Since he talked to his dad and now his mom too he is much more emotional. He couldn't sleep last night. We had to return to work today. These are staff development days/set up classroom days. He started crying (serious breakdown sobbing) and called in sick. He seems to be experiencing a whole new level of shame remorse.

He sent loving text to me which I didn't hear because my cell was on vibrate as I was in meeting. I checked it a couple times but missed timing. On my way home I checked and saw voice mail. Voice mail was husband sobbing on phone. He is really having a breakdown of sorts and a whole new level of remorse, shame, guilt...etc. He is apologizing again to me and the kids. I called him from car on way home. He started crying again. I stayed on phone with him just listening and trying to reassure him. I think the going back to work (the scene of the crime so to speak) is causing severe delayed serious grief, sadness, etc. He cried more when I got home off and on. I remained calm and showed kindness. I am thinking of asking him if he would like to pray together tonight for him and for me and for us and for our kids and our M and our R with God to help us get through this.

Working through this is holds a different set of repercussions than what happened when we had our A. There were plenty of consequences and repercussions but we did not have to try to put something back together. We ran away from old problems. This is new for both of us...choosing to stay and fight for M. Choosing not to give up. Choosing not to blame and keep score. All of this is necessary. I need your advise. I am not asking you to TELL me what to do just there is a way you have of showing me what I have done/am doing and how to see it differently. This is helpful for me. Your perspective and your way is helpful to me.

My question is how do I support him in a way that is not playing the fixer role. I want to reassure him. I did tell him I am choosing to stay in this marriage. I am choosing not to leave you. I don't want to play my dad's role and my role. Fixer...rescuee. I see this pattern and where it has been repeated in my M. It has been enlightening. Please don't downplay your importance here LA.

If you have been specifically asked to stop helping me can you at least tell me that you can no longer participate. You have been nothing but a blessing from God to me but if you feel this compromises you or your relationship with other long time members and friends here I will respect your decision.



His anxiety level is so high. I asked if he wished to go to IC for help. He isn't sure if he wants to. This isn't my choice to make. I ask you this because you have been on both sides of the A. The WW and the BW. Your husband has been both the WH and the BH. I do not feel angry at my H. I feel sad that he is hurting so much and am really wanting to provide good support. I feel loving and kind and compassionate for him. I am past anger at him. I did feel angry and sad at the same time. I still feel sad sometimes but more hopeful. I am praying for him. How do I provide loving support for him (magnitude of how the A affects the whole family is really sinking in for him he says and how he feels he has failed all of us.) I want to support without any LBing and because I am now aware of how fixing is a DJ to him and do not wish to do this. I am asking you to advise how to support this

We talked about the text message from the other day. He actually brought it up to me which led to a discussion about my need to feel that checking in his presence is okay. This talk went well. He stated this was not a problem for him and I am welcome to look at anything I need to. I felt better after this discussion. No matter what you decide I will always be thankful for what you have already done to assist me in understanding areas I need to grow in and I just wanted to thank you for all you have done.

Jilly, I personally use the NIV as my primary text. I also have the KJV and the NKJV bibles for reference (I was raised with the KJV and still love the "poetic"-like phraseaology a lot even though few people today use words like "thee" and "thou"). I also have others, such as the New American Standard on CD for when I am doing Scripture study, as well as many commentaries.

I, personally, would not use The Message as I believe it "changes" and corrupts many of the essential parts of the Scripture, and that is "dangerous" to do. It is NOT a translation. At best, it is a paraphrase, similiar in that respect to the Living Bible. It can be used if one wants a more "modern language," but in my opinion it should NOT be used as authoritative and should not be used to "quote" Scripture because of the potential harm it could do to someone is unaware of what the actual Scripture does say, and does teach, about things The Message leaves out.

If a more "modern" language is desired that remains faithful to the original text, then I would recommend the NIV or the New King James.

The quotes that I use when quoting Scripture are almost always from the NIV. Occasionally I will also quote from the KJV or the NAS, but primarily I use the NIV because it is easier for people to understand in "today's" language usage.



Yes, I understand what you are saying. But let me get very practical here for a minute. Your husband needs to be on some medication to help him with huge emotional swings. I used Welbutrin for about 6 months and my wife used it for a couple of years. It smooths out the highs and lows and allows you to think more clearly and rationally without the debilitating depths of emotional upheaval and sorrow. One simple cannot "think clearly" when one's powerful emotions take over control of both mind and body.



I know you mean well, but I have to disagree with part of what you said here. God does forgive those who look to Jesus as their Lord and Savior. That is a promise of God that no one can change. However, the "shame" part should not be "given to God." God uses shame to "break one's pride" and to bring them to the realization that they DO need God. It is heartfelt sorrow over sin that the person has done and is "felt intensly" when one realizes that it was first and foremost a sin against Holy God. The seriousness of such sin is what nailed Jesus Christ to the Cross as the "payment" for our sins. God did that for him, for you, for me, for your husband, for all believers about 2000 years ago SO THAT our sins CAN be forgiven without our needing to anything other than to look on Jesus and BELIEVE in Him as God's provision for our salvation from sin.

Shame also helps to keep us "turned" from similar sins in the future, because we KNOW that we ARE a sinner and we know what it cost God to forgive us "while we were yet sinners." Shame is one of the ways that the Holy Spirit "convicts us" (makes us acutely aware of) of sin in our life.




Guilt, not shame, is the real destroyer, because it tends to cause people to think things like, "my sin was SO great that surely God couldn't forgive me of THAT sin!" Guilt, not shame, is a tool that Satan uses to try to perpetuate his lie that "God didn't really mean what He said." The intent is to keep you separated from God and weakened in your belief, not trusting God to be faithful to ALL of his promises regardless of how "bad" you were before you accepted Jesus as your Savior from sin and death.



This is true, so I would ask "has your husband accepted Jesus as his own Lord and Savior?" If he has, then what you said is true. If he has not, then he needs to do that first, or none of God's promises apply to him.




Yes, Jilly, praying to God "in your head" is praying. In fact, for someone like your husband, crushed by the realization of his sin, quite often won't even know WHAT they are trying to pray for, but the Holy Spirit intercedes for the believer with groans that God understands. God knows the heart. Jesus sits at the Father's right hand constantly making intercession for believers.

Jilly, you may have heard the phrase "look to the Cross" from time to time. That phrase is meaningless to a lot of people because they don't understand what it is "referring back to" as a previous provision of God for the "saving" of His people. It refers back to the "flaming snake" of Moses that God told him to set up in order to save people who were bitten by the poisonous snakes that had been sent upon the rebellious Jews. ALL they had to "do" was to look at the snake that was "raised up," believing that it was God's provision for their healing from the death sentence of the snake bite. That's all they had to do, believe God and LOOK at the flaming snake that was raised up as the only way for them to be healed.

So it is with Christ. ALL we have to do is to look on Him, believing that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, who saves us with His blood. We don't have to DO anything else to "be saved." The "doing" comes later, in response to the love God showed us and our desire to "be like Christ" in response to that love.

Lastly, since you like good songs with much meaning, let me recommend a very good one for both you and your husband during this time...."Some through the Water, Some through the Fire...." It's an old Hymn, but you might find enormous meaning and relevance in it.


God bless.

JJ,

I'm here...and I believe MM and FH can answer these questions you asked of me in the same way...and no, I'm not saying anything because what I've learned is not to get out of man's way, but God's.

He's fully at work here...why I was led to post to you...and there may be an order of information...you're getting the most important first.

I believe strongly in MC...with a Christian pro-marriage counselor...who is willing to individual MC with each of you...yes, for the marriage, I think your WH can choose to do that, even if he fears...and no, that's not you fixing, but protecting your marriage and helping yourself.

If returning to work is a trigger...and if there is any chance he'll encounter OW, then he'll have to get another job in the school district. I can't remember right now (its early for me), so I'm not assuming here.

Respect he has to feel what he feels, and talk about those feelings...and you listen. Listen isn't fixing.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And of COURSE I'll tell you what to do...heehee...only you choose what to do in your life...don't assume, either, that all his upset, his intense crying, is from shame...you guys are talking...there may be a lot of emotions from his tears...his job to find them out and share them. Get counseling lined up and go...with or without him.

LA

Excellent advice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JJ,

FH is right on the money here. But I wanted to hit on something you have said over and over about your husband. You talk about "how can I help him?" Or, you talked about your church, and finding a new one.

Let me let you in on a little secret here...

And the way I will do this is to get you to answer this question to yourself. Is your husband your pastor? Is he the spiritual head of your home? Is he your head in practice? Does he love you with the love of Jesus?

Secondly, do you reverence your husband? Do you treat him as your head? Do you know what that means? Do you submit to his authority? (Submit in the Biblical sense...not the worldly sense).

I would ask you to read the link at the bottom of my post in order to answer your questions concerning your husband's issues, and with how you can help him. Also, what church you might go to.

God has set up a way of doing things in a marriage. it wasnt a suggestion. Anytime we operate outside of the way He intended, we cant seem to make it work right. Well, duuhhhh!!!

There is a way to help your husband. And incidentally, there is a way for him to get over his mess and at the same time lead you and him to where God wants you after creating all of this mess.

So, I suggest you sit down and read the link. Maybe even print it out and have your husband read it.

Then, you can come back and let me know how you think you can help your husband!!

FH,

Thanks for the information regarding the Message Bible vs. the other two I have. I will use the other too primarily. I agree that isn't a translation. I see the difference. I like parts of it but the one I have only has a new testament that in itself leaves it our for total study. I have always had KJ or NIV. The woman's study is NKJ so I think it should be fine. We have standard KJ too. I realize the point you are making here.

I talked to one of my good friends today about attending church with her. She said she and H were going to another church since they moved 9about 25 min drive) but miss other church and would like to come back. So we will go together soon.

I agree. I think he is kind of afraid to go that route as several years ago they started him on Paxil and he had an adverse reaction and rather than try something else he just said no way. I will discuss with him.

For the most part I agree in this case...you need to understand where my own shame issues stemming from adoption issues caused me to feel shame of self. This kind of shame is NOT good especially when it isn't founded in a reason to feel shame. I am talking here about the fundamental shame I felt about being given up and that something must be inherently "wrong or bad" about me for this to happen. I am changing my belief system about this and called IC to make appt. today. IC specializes in adoption issues and may be hard to get into but said if I will come from cancellations then she will try to fit me in and as her schedule clears a bit I can get in a regular schedule. A first step for me. It wasn't that hard. I am feeling happy about this decision. It is good to ask for help in this way if I need it.

He has but he is still struggling with old belief system. I think the biggest person who can't forgive him is him. He hasn't yet gotten to the part where God's forgiveness is so healing. It is unbelievable how much I feel God giving me strength everyday. I am amazed. I feel God's love and when I am weak I know he is carrying me and there is safety in that and peace in that and ability to let it go in him. This is new for me and it is very powerful.

Good point. I see this. Thank you for saying this now. I needed to be reminded of this now.

I finally really accept this to be my truth. This is a change again in belief system. This is a good change and understanding that God takes us where we are and will help us get to where we need to be and continue to help us get better.

Will web search this hymn. Singing hymns in church was always a part I enjoyed. ALWAYS.

FH thank you so much for your way. My H and I are blessed to have your help through God. Thank you.

LA,

Thank you. I will go first and see if she can do all 3. It would be my first choice for us to see same for all. Reputed to be pro marriage so I choose to believe this unless I see otherwise.

Yes you are on the mark. He went today. He confessed to his long time friend at work already and talked to her again about it today. It was good. She told him she is disappointed in what happened but was proud of him for making what she sees is the best choice. Staying in M and working to rebuild. She said she was proud of the way I have handled myself too.

FOW works there too yes. He avoided her and then ran into her. She followed to his room. He was straight up with her. He said I don't hate you BUT I cannot be your friend ever again. I love my family and have hurt them because of this. I will no longer hurt them by this. I will be professional but I will not be friendly or open for any private discussion period. She said her piece...she was sorry etc. and accepts this is how it will be. She will stay away. Then she left room and he did not see her anymore today. He celled me right after it happened. I am proud of the way he handled that. He left NO room for question of where his boundary and loyalty are. Go H GO. I choose to believe this will happen. He is still looking for transfer. We both ran into OWH at meeting. We did not talk to him. It isn't that I don't have empathy for him because I do. He is not mine to fix. LA this fixing idea that you have shown me is needed. I see how much I have done this. I am choosing to stop this behavior. If you see me doing this in my posting CALL ME OUT on it. This has been very valuable to me.

In honesty my first reaction was LA is going to leave me too. Then I chose to rethink that thinking (YES me actually rethinking assumption pattern.) I said NO Jilly stop that. Post...ask her. I would not have done this in past I would have made assumption and then felt hurt. I feel happy that I chose to rethink and act differently. I feel good about this choice. (You saw this coming no?)

I see what you are saying here and respect the order. God first, marriage+ self+ H next, then the FOO and other issues. Order matters I see this.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This made me laugh. It is good to laugh sometimes in spite of all of this.

Thank you LA for your way and for understanding.

MM,

I am thinking on your last post. I need to think about this a bit and read the reread the link. The truth is I don't know the answer to all of your questions and I need to reflect on this and what you said. I hope you don't mind me taking a little bit to get back to you on this. I want to find my truth about this. I will reflect and then answer. Part of this is one of the hardest questions you have asked me yet. I don't know is what is truth yet so I will think and pray and talk to H regarding this.

Thank you so much.

Jilly - Here's something that I posted a long time ago. It might make "good reading" for both and your husband.



Do you dare release the person you are today from the shadow of the wrong you did yesterday?

Do you dare forgive yourself?

To forgive yourself takes high courage. Who are you, after all, to shake yourself free from the undeniable sins of your private history – as if what you once did has no bearing on who you are now?

Where do you get the right – let alone the cheek – to forgive yourself when other people would want you to crawl in shame if they really knew? How dare you?

The answer is that you get the right to forgive yourself only from the entitlements of love. And you dare forgive yourself only with the courage of love. Love is the ultimate source of both your right and your courage to ignore the indictment you level at yourself. When you live as if yesterday’s wrong is irrelevant to how you feel about yourself today, you are gambling on a love that frees you even from self-condemnation.

But there must be truthfulness. Without honesty, self-forgiveness is psychological hocus-pocus. The rule is: we cannot really forgive ourselves unless we look at the failure in our past and call it by its right name.

We need honest judgment to keep us from self-indulging complacency.

Let me recall the four stages we pass through when we forgive someone else who hurt us: we hurt, we hate, we heal ourselves, and we come together again.

We all hurt ourselves . Unfairly, too, and sometimes deeply.

God knows the regrets we have for the foolish ways we cheat ourselves. I smoked cigarettes too long, and while I puffed away on my pack-a-day, I feared the time that I would say: you fool, you fool, dying before your time, and you have no one to blame but yourself. Then there are the opportunities spurned, disciplines rejected, and addictions hooked into – they all can haunt you with a guilty sense that you did yourself wrong.

But the hurt your heart cries hardest to forgive yourself for is the unfair harm you did to others.

The memory of a moment when you lied to someone who trusted you! The recollection of neglecting a child who depended on you. The time you turned away from somebody who called out to you for help! These are the memories, and thousands like them, that pierce us with honest judgment against ourselves.

We do not have to be bad persons to do bad things. If only bad people did bad things to other people we would live in a pretty good world. We hurt people by our bungling as much as we do by our vices.

And the more decent we are the more acutely we feel our pain for the unfair hurts we caused. Our pain becomes our hate. The pain we cause other people becomes the hate we feel for ourselves. For having done them wrong . We judge, we convict, and we sentence ourselves. Mostly in secret.

Some of us feel only a passive hatred for ourselves. We merely lack love’s energy to bless ourselves. We cannot look in the looking glass and say: “What I see makes me glad to be alive.” Our joy in being ourselves is choked by a passive hatred.

Others sink into aggressive hatred of themselves. They cut themselves to pieces with a fury of contempt. One part of them holds its nose and shoves the other part down a black hole of contempt. They are their own enemy. And sometimes, in the ultimate tragedy, their self-hatred is acted out in self-destruction.

Of course, your inner judge may be an unreasonable nag, accusing you falsely, and flailing you unfairly. On the other hand, your better self often sweeps real guilt under a carpet of complacency. You con yourself just to save yourself the pain of confrontation with your shadowy side.

In any case, you shouldn’t trust your inner judge too far.
Still, he is your toughest critic, and you have to come to terms with him.
So let us move on to love’s daring response.
What happens when you finally do forgive yourself?
When you forgive yourself, you rewrite your script. What you are in your present scene is not tied down to what you did in an earlier scene. The bad guy you played in Act One is eliminated and you play Act Two as a good guy.

You release yourself today from yesterday’s scenario. You walk into tomorrow, guilt gone.

Again, the word that fits the case best is “irrelevance.” Look back into your past, admit the ugly facts, and declare that they are irrelevant to your present. Irrelevant and immaterial! Your very own past has no bearing on your case. Or how you feel about it.

Such release does not come easy. The part of yourself who did the wrong walks with you wherever you go. A corner of your memory winks at you and says, “Nice try old chap, but we both know the scoundrel you really are, don’t we?” It takes a miracle of love to get rid of the unforgiving inquisitor lurking in the shadows of your heart.

Perhaps nobody has understood the tortured route to self-forgiveness better than the Russian genius Dostoevski. In his novel Crime and Punishment, he portrayed the inner struggle of self-forgiveness in the soul of a murderer named Ilyon Raskolnikov.

Raskolnikov did something as evil as anyone can do. He brutally murdered a helpless woman, and old pawnbroker – a miserable woman to be sure, and miserly, and mean, but innocent still. His guilt was stupefying.

No soul can bear such guilt alone, not for long. Sooner or later one must tell. Raskolnikov found a girl, an angel, Sonia, and he confessed to her. He told her everything.

She persuaded him to admit everything to the police, and he finally did. He was sent to prison in Siberia.

The loving Sonia followed him there and waited for him to forgive himself so that he could find the freedom to accept her love.

Raskolnikov could not forgive himself. He tried to excuse himself instead.

He came to grief, he said, “through some decree of blind fate”; he was destined to kill the old woman. Besides, when you come right down to it was his act really that bad? Did not Napoleon do the same sort of thing and do they not build him monuments? In clever ways like this he excused himself by finding deep reasons why he was not to blame.

Raskolnikov did not dare to be guilty.

“Oh, how happy he would have been,” wrote Dostoevski, “if he could have blamed himself! He could have borne anything then, even shame and disgrace.”

Yet, now and then, Raskolnikov did get a glimpse of “the fundamental falsity in himself.” He knew deep inside that he was lying to himself.

And finally it happened. How it happened he did not know. He flung himself at Sonia’s feet and accepted her love. “He wept and threw his arms around her knees.” He finally had the power to love. And his power to love revealed that the miracle had really happened; he had forgiven himself.

He forgave himself? For such a crime as cold blooded murder? Yes. “Everything, even his crime, his sentence and imprisonment seemed to him now . . . and external strange fact with which he had no concern. ”

Release! Release by a discovery that his terrible past was irrelevant to who he was now and was going to be in the future. He was free from his own judgment and this was why he was free to love.

Raskolnikov stands out in staggering boldness to show us that even the worst of us can find the power to set ourselves free.

Finally, the climax of self-forgiving; it comes when we feel at one with ourselves again. The split is healed. The self inside of you, who condemned you so fiercely, embraces you now. You are whole, single; you have come together.

You are not being smug. You care very much that you once did a wrong. And you do not want to do it again. But you will not let your former wrong curse the person you are now. You take life in stride. You have let yourself come home.

It does not happen once and for all. The hate you felt comes back now and then, and you reject yourself for doing what you did. But then you come back to yourself again. And again. And again.

To forgive your own self – almost the ultimate miracle of healing!

But how can you pull it off?

The first thing you need is honesty. There is no way to forgive yourself without it. Candor – a mind ready to forego fakery and to face facts – this is the first piece of spiritual equipment you need.

Without candor you can only be complacent. And complacency is a counterfeit of forgiveness. Some people are superficial, there is no other word for it. Drawing on the top layer of their shallow wits, they pursue the unexamined life with unquestioning contentment, more like grazing cows than honest human beings.

The difference between a complacent person and a person who forgives himself is like the difference between a person who is high on cocaine and a person who has reason for being really happy.

Then you need a clear head to make way for your forgiving heart.

For instance, you need to see the difference between self-esteem and self-forgiveness.
You can gain esteem for yourself when you discover that you are estimable, that you are in fact worth esteeming. To esteem yourself is to feel in your deepest being that you are a superb gift very much worth wanting, God’s own art form, and a creature of magnificent beauty.

Sometimes you gain self-esteem only after you come to terms with the bad hand you were dealt in life’s game.

I know a man who has what is cruelly called the Elephant man syndrome; a tough hand to play, but the only hand he has. He has learned to see the beautiful person he is beneath his t horny skin, and he esteems himself – because of what he is. Kim, on the other hand, is a beautiful adopted child whose birth-mother dealt her a genetic disease. Kim has chosen to accept herself as an incredibly splendid gift of God because of what she is, and in spite of the tough hand she was dealt.

Blessed are the self-esteemers, for they have seen the beauty of their own souls.

But self-esteem is not the same as self-forgiveness. You esteem yourself when you discover your own excellence. You forgive yourself after you discover your own faults. You esteem yourself for the good person you are. You forgive yourself for the bad things you did.

If you did not see the difference, you may shout a thousand bravos at yourself and never come to the moment of self-forgiving. So you need a clear head about what it is you are doing.

You also need courage. Forgiving yourself is love’s ultimate daring.

The reason it takes high courage to forgive yourself lies partly with other people’s attitudes toward self-forgivers. Self-righteous people do not want you to forgive yourself. They want you to walk forever under the black umbrella of permanent shame.

I understand these people; I am one of them. There is something inside of me that wants a wrongdoer, especially a famous wrongdoer, to keep a low profile, to take the last place in line, to speak with a meek voice; I want him to grovel a little. Maybe a lot.

So, when you walk and talk like a person who has sliced your sinful past from your present sense of selfhood, you will need courage to face the self-righteous crowd.

Then you need to be concrete.

You drown in the bilge of your own condemnation for lack of specificity. You will almost always fail at self-forgiving when you refuse to be concrete about what you are forgiving yourself for.

Many of us try, for instance, to forgive ourselves for being the sorts of persons we are. We are ugly, or mean, or petty, or given to spouting off; or, on the other hand, we are too good, a patsy, everybody’s compliant sucker, humble servant to all who want to get something out of us.

But people who try to forgive themselves for being wholesale failures are not humble at all; they are really so proud that they want to be gods. John Quincy Adams, not the greatest, but a very good President, could not forgive himself. “I have done nothing,” he wrote in his diary. “My life has been spent in vain and idle aspirations, and in ceaseless rejected prayers that something should be the result of my existence beneficial to my own species.” The last words spoken by the great jurist Hugo Grotius, the father of modern international law, on his deathbed, were: “I have accomplished nothing worthwhile in my life.” Such people sound humble with their moans about being failures in life; but they are really crying because they had to settle for being merely human.

You must call your own bluff: precisely, what is it that you need forgiveness for? For being unfaithful to your spouse last year? Good, you can work on that. For being an evil sort of person? No, that is too much; you cannot swallow yourself whole.

Most of us can manage no more than one thing at a time. “Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof,” said Jesus. When we overload ourselves with dilated bags of undifferentiated guilt we are likely to sink into despair. The only way we can succeed as self-forgivers, free from the tyranny of a tender conscience, is to be concrete and to forgive ourselves for one thing at a time.

Finally, you need to confirm your outrageous act of self-forgiveness with a reckless act of love. How can you know for sure that you gambled with guilt and won unless you gamble your winnings on love?

“She loves much because she has been forgiven much” –this was Jesus’ explanation for a woman who dared to barge into a dinner party uninvited, plunk herself at Jesus’ feet, and pour out a small cascade of love.

Love is a signal that you have done it, that you have actually released the guilt that condemned you. You won’t always know exactly when you have forgiven yourself. It is like reaching the top of a long hill on a highway – you may not be sure when you have reached level ground, but you can tell that you have passed the top when you step on the gas the care spurts ahead. An act of love is like quick acceleration. A free act of love, to anyone at all, may signal to you that you do, after all, have the power that comes to anyone who is self-forgiving.

You can buy her a gift! Invite him to dinner! Visit someone who is sick! You can put your arms around a friend you never touched before! Write a letter of thanks. Or tell Dad that you love him. All ways of confirming that we performed the miracle of forgiving ourselves.

Yes, love gives you the right to forgive yourself. And it gives you the power as well. At least to begin. Healing may come slowly, but better a snail’s pace than standing still, feet sunk in the cement of self-accusations.

To forgive yourself is to act out the mystery of one person who is both forgiver and forgiven. You judge yourself: this is the division within you. You forgive yourself: this is the healing of the split.

That you should dare to heal yourself by this simple act is a signal to the world that God’s love is a power within you.



(Forgiving Ourselves, Ch.8, Lewis B. Smedes, Forgive & Forget, Healing The Hurts We Don’t Deserve, p.71-77)

Jilly, one other thought, have you ever taken the time to read the thread that is linked in my signature line?

You might find some comfort there. Perhaps even a little wisdom.

God bless.

FH + MM,


Both of you have shared some important things...life changing things and God is working in my life in a big way right now. I am asking H some new questions and he is seeing something too but he is fragile right now so I feel guide God showing me when it is right to ask the hard questions in a loving way.

Maybe the shame is good because I see some changes in him.Perhaps this is how God truly wakes a peron up and then they have a very new perspective about OP. Fog isn't love. Fog is selfish.... a taker. I see this he see this. I will report more on this later.


There is a lot we are talking about God. We have had some discussion but I am asking some deep very personal about where he is in his spiritual journey.I am going to print and share some of the posts here regarding God's forgiveness. It is good...God is working. Please pray for us both if you can.

I have to get ready for work now so I will try to post later. The new computers should be installed in rooms today so I will access at school on break times etc. Thank you for all that you are doing through God.

MM,

A lot has happened this week. I have seen my H at his most broken self. I know he is a believer but we are at different points in our journey. This is okay. This is authentic.

We went back to work this week. Yes, my H is still working at same site as FOW. The first day back he called in sick. He couldn't face going back..seeing her. He felt weak. Not because he wants to have any further R with her because but because he felt like he would have a breakdown at work. I think I posted about this day. He called crying on cell phone. I felt scared for him.

Day 2 we went to district staff development together and then had to go back to individual school sites to work in classrooms. He confessed to the bull (his good friend at work and someone I TRUST too.) Later that day FOW came in his room after he tried to avoid her all day. H told her his boundaries. He was strong and straight up with her. He said I cannot be your friend anymore. We have to work together for now so I will remain professional to you but we will no longer have ANY private conversations or be ALONE under any circumstances. FOW said her piece and said she was sorry and that she would respect his boundary.

When he came home he broke down again. I asked him if he had asked God to help him. Have you given over to God. H said I think so I am praying all the time. I said have you asked God to forgive you. H said I think so. I said ask him again. God sees our hearts and he knows when we are sincere.

He had conversation with kids. H cried and held son for a long long time crying and saying he was sorry for not being a good dad. Son was crying too. I was making dinner and they were in the LR (actually it all a great room so I could see and hear what was happening but I wasn't hovering over.) He held DD and repeated. Since both kids are aware of current sitch (son is 12 so he knows more and DD thinks the OW was trying to break up our family and take her daddy.) He told kids he was sorry for this. This isn't the way a good daddy acts. He has said sorry to both before but his sincerity and promise to never hurt them this way again was different than before. It was hard not to cry in the kitchen.

I am broken too but I have God so I feel stronger and so when I talked to kids later I reassured them that daddy will be okay. Daddy hasn't forgiven himself yet. My son and I usually work together to clean up after dinner. It has become a one on one time for us to connect. He is my SS but our R has improved so much over the last couple of years and even more since all of this happened that my love for him has grown so much. I stopped calling him my SS and started calling him my son several years ago. I know I am not his mom he has a good R with his mom. I know a lot of people find this hard to understand but I also have a good R with his mom. It is all of our belief (H, me, XW) that having a good R is best for son. His mom was very supportive of SS and I developing a better R. As I posted before she is also aware of current sitch as son told her. I figured out that she knew but didn't tell H she knew because he had told him not to tell her so I decided not to tell him I knew partly because I was concerned that he would be mad at son and also because I didn't think he was ready to know this yet.

I had good conversation with son about forgiveness and why sometimes it is harder to forgive self for some things than others.My son described an experience where he had kicked his little brother (his mom's other child not my H's) when he was being annoying and little brother was in sleeping bag so son didn't realize how hard he kicked him. B's chin was split open. My son was horrified by what he had done and immediately sorry to his b. He described feeling of shame and that it took him longer to forgive himself. I talked to him about love and why when you genuinely love and care for someone and hurt them it can be harder to forgive self. He understood this and said it made him sad to see his dad so sad. He said he felt lucky and grateful to have his dad flaws and all.

Later in bed that night I discussed this talk with son to H. H immediate response was guilt and shame. I don't want son to feel sad for me I hurt him and know he is feeling sad for me. I said stop....rethink this. I said see the maturity and growth in son's actions. See the compassion in son. Be proud of son. Son is showing so much about his self through this. I said do you not want son to grow up to be a man that can forgive and have empathy for others? H realized and said yes I am proud of son.

Day 3...H is still in breakdown mode. H goes to work. I cell him to see how he is. H says he doesn't know if he can do job this year. H wants to get off phone and do busy work so he can get through day and get home. When H picks up DD from his parents house his mom talks to him about God. She encourages H to let give this over to God and seek forgiveness. God sees heart. God forgives. (This conversation actually happened day 2 but we didn't discuss this conversation until day 3..I am getting days mixed up.) So actually day 3 in laws have both kids and went to movie.

I got home first that day as I was feeling kind of down..worried about H etc. His XW called and (she knows current and past sitch) I told her my concern about his state of mind now. H still didn't know that she knew of current sitch. She was supportive and I felt her genuine concern for his well being too.

H came home and again broke down. Again he talked of not being able to continue at job..not just because of FOW but because he has expressed for the last couple of years about moving up to teach jr. high. He is unhappy at current job and was prior to A. The A just makes the work sitch that much worse. I told H..you can get medical stress LOA. We can sell house whatever it takes so you can quit if you want. I said you are not replaceable. All the rest is stuff. Stuff is unimportant. I have spent too much of my life worrying about stuff. He said he felt like if he quit that he would be letting us down etc. I said stop. You have to be okay. If job makes you NOT okay then job is not okay.

This is when he told me about his talk with his mom about God. We discussed where he is with God. I sense a slight change in him. I ask again if he has truly asked God to forgive him and admitted he is powerless without God's help. I see a change in him. I see him wanting this R with God. He is trying to reconcile his actions with self and with God. I tell him again that God takes us where we are. This is good and this is progress. I feel God is working overtime here with us.

Later that night H's XW calls and talks to him. She tells him she knows. I see the relief and the ability to seek forgiveness from her again. She also tells him it okay to get help...LOA whatever. My H and I talk after this. He isn't mad that I knew that she knew and didn't tell just asked me why. I said because I didn't feel that you were ready to know that. I felt it would be too much for you at time. H said he understood this and was not upset. H and I are struggling with many past demons. The current A opened up a new door of communication between H and I and we have talked more about more than we ever have. This is God working here. I feel with every breath I take. I am amazed at how God works in us. I tell H that I am thinking of going to church with friend. I leave it open to him to go if he wants or not. H says he isn't ready to go but has no problem with me going if I want. I understand that we are each on our own journey with God. I am not upset by this. I will go with or without him. (MM I think this answers part of one of your questions and I will go into further in a minute.)

Day 4 (yesterday) We go to work. H is not in good space again. I repeat that he can quit. I will support him in whatever he needs. $$$$ is irrelevant. We leave for work. H cells to say that he is picking up son to help in classroom and DD will be dropped later at his classroom. This is a half day.

Later at home H tells me that he confessed A (prior to picking up son) to another friend at work. This friend is someone I know who used to work at my school. She had A with man at my work. A broke up marriage but she and OM are no longer together. During the time she was at my site and in A I confessed my A to her and talked to her about her sitch. I remember telling her that she shouldn't make a decision about a D based on feelings for OM. They tried to rebuild M and her H requested that she leave site and take job in other district. She took LOA from our district and when M was not recovered she came back to district and was assigned to H's site. I told H that I had told her about our A and so they have both always known about each other's A's and have talked about it before. I trust this woman so it isn't a problem for me for him to be friends with her. Anyway yesterday he confessed to her current A and sitch. I had seen her at district staff development day and as I was leaving I saw her in parking lot and said to her H needs support and I trust YOU. After H confessed to her she said Oh now jilly's words make more sense to me. Their discussion included the realization of the totality of the destructiveness of A's. It was a good talk. I am not worried of H having another A with her or anyone one else. I know that conversation would have been same if I was there too. I see H's confession to these two coworkers as good. H knows both will call me if they see anything out of line with FOW. He wants it this way. I see this is good. H wants to live with accountability.

H tells me that FOW came in his room the day before the day before (he told me same day but I didn't add this in timeline so adding now) asking if he wanted her to pick up lunch for him as she was taking orders for their wing. H said no and don't ask me that again. I told you boundaries and this is one of them. H repeats boundaries. Professional work related period..no other contact period. She apologizes and leaves. H says he sees her with new perspective and she makes him sick. He says he cannot stand her. He says she is a word that I long ago asked my husband to stop using ever as it is the worst thing you can call a woman and is a vile word. He said this is how he feels about her and because he is out of the fogged out fantasy he sees her for who she really is and now knows she was never his friend that had an agenda and that agenda didn't included her wanting to break up our M and be with him. He is sickened by his actions and that he once saw her so differently. H says he feels so much shame for once have putting her needs and feelings above mine. Now it just sickens him what he did. We talk about fog and fantasy and about when you step back into truth what you see is not pretty. What you see is truth. Truth is good.

My friend (the one I asked about going to church with) called last night to invite me to church. H did videography for their wedding last summer. She tells me she saw him with the bull at Starbucks and that she gave him a hug and told him that we can call her and H anytime. She tells me this and that H says to her at Starbucks thanks but I am NOT going to church with you. She isn't hurt by this. As someone who has gone through a spiritual rebirth she understands we are all on our own path with God. She tells me that last summer when he was filming part of interview with her for wedding video that he had expressed a desire to go to church but didn't think I would want to go. I didn't know of this conversation but he is probably right last summer I was not ready. She says to me sometimes the wives go first and then the H follows. I said I am going to go whether H goes or not and that I am okay with him not going now if he isn't ready. There is a good understanding between this friend and me about leaving it up to God.

Later I discuss this conversation with H. I tell him that she and her H love and care about us. Her H and my H went to HS together and used to be good friends and are still friendly but we haven't spent time with them for awhile. H says I was mean to her in Starbucks and said I wouldn't go to church. I say I know she told me. I said she loves you anyway and wasn't hurt by what you said. She knows your heart and she sees your pain. She has God and understand how he works. I discuss me going with her to church. He says okay but I don't want to go. Then he says something remarkable. He says I want you to go. You said you want to go and you need to go. I want you to go. Maybe your going will OPEN the door for me to go too. I cry he cries. I feel God here with us. I see that maybe I need to take first step. If my step helps then this is what is God's will. God is my pilot and I will let him lead the way.

So back to your questions.

No not yet but I see hope and I see this can happen.


Not in the past. I am working on this. This has not been my way but I am changing. I have given my decision making power away to FOO and H and others regarding other stuff for a long time. I see I must reclaim my power and behave as an adult in my truth. I will not submit my R with God to anyone. This is mine not to be given away. When H is ready to become the spiritual leader of our home then I will gladly submit to him. Right now H openly admits he isn't there yet. God will show us. I can take the step. If my step leads to his step then this is God's will. This is my thinking right now. Is this wrong thinking?

I can help him by taking the step to let God run the show. It is a process and we can get there with God's help. H is still struggling. God is working with him. Expelling old belief systems is a process. God is patient. God is working. I know this. I don't know how the timeline will work for this just that it is up to God to lead us in whatever order.

I feel God guiding my words, my actions. I hope I have answered your questions. This is where we are right now. Please keep praying for us. This is a beginning. We still need help.

Thank you so much.

Jilly, I'm going to bring out the old "2x4" for a minute. As you have stated, you and your husband, your marriage, are at at "turning point" right now. What I am going to say applies to you, but more importantly right now, it applies to your husband.

Jilly, a Christian can't "have it both ways." Either we are obedient to God's commands or we are not. Some commands are "easier" to submit to than others, but they should all be obeyed no matter what we are feeling simply out of love and gratefulness for what God has already done for us. So here is the "beginning" of your husband's walk (as well as yours it would seem).

Going to church is NOT an "option." You both have a Mandatory Meeting scheduled each week to meet with God at His "place of business." Unless one is sick and physically unable to go to church, you BOTH need to be in church, now more than ever. You need to hear God's word and feel the presence of fellow believers, all of whom are also sinners who have had their sins forgiven. The purpose of church is to worship God, not "feel good." God's blessings will flow from humble obedience, but right now THE issue is that you BOTH should be attending church every week without fail. It is past time for "do it yourself" cures and is now time to begin the following of God by submitting to one "very easy command;" "do not forsake the gathering together of the saints.

The problem your husband is feeling right now is that he doesn't feel "good enough" to be in church. His guilt is telling him that "maybe later" is best for him. I am posting this to tell you that is yet another lie of Satan. God WANTS him there now because God wants to talk to him, and to you. God has forgiven, will you now "snub your noses" at God telling Him "thanks for the forgiveness but I'm not 'up to' saying thank you in Your House?"

Like it or not, your husband now IS the spiritual head of your house. Just like he is going to work even though he doesn't feel like it, he needs to obey God and go to church even though he doesn't feel like it. No more running and hiding from God. This is the START of learning to live in humble obedience to God. Just as there is No Contact with the OW, there needs to be a "replacement" for that habit. That "replacement" is CONTACT with God, at least once a week in church.

If he doesn't want to go to the church your friend invited you to, that's okay. Pick another bible believing/bible teaching church and go, but the point is to GO.

Remember Jilly, and tell your husband this, God does NOT want "perfect people" in church. They don't need to be there, just ask them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

God wants sinners who are trusting and believing in Jesus Christ BECAUSE they know that they are sinners and only God can forgive their sins through Christ. So for now, forget all the other reasons to go to church and begin by going for two main reasons; to worship and thank God for the gift of His son and for your salvation, and to be taught by God what He has to say to you that day.

So let's start the obedience walk with the simple step of attending church. Be "just one of the people in the pew" and let God speak to each of your hearts. Sit in the back, in the balcony, near the aisle, in case you need to leave briefly if emotions overwhelm you, but know that in a church of believers, crying is NOT "frowned upon" because all believers have cried over the depth of Gods' love and forgiveness for them personally.

Jilly, you are both very vulnerable now, and your husband is just beginning to learn what it means to be a spiritual leader. So let's not get overwhelmed with all the things "to do," let's just start with the ONE step of commitment to obey God whenever it is within your power to do so. Begin with church and let others build and be added as time passes. But DO NOT miss church unless there is a very good reason, and "I just don't feel like it, but I'd like you to go" is not a good reason.

Each journey we take begins with a single step. Growing in Christ and in one's walk with God begins the same way. Attending church is a "simple step" but it is one of the first steps that can be taken, even when you know the full journey may take a long time before reaching your destination of a recovered marriage and a marriage that bring honor and glory to God.

So go. This week. Right now. Make the effort. And trust God for the rest.

God bless.

FH,

I went to church last night.
My husband did not go.
I did not force him or get angry.
I had already read your post so I went anyway.
I was gone 5 hours.
I was not a church 5 hours but I was with God.
It was a candlelight evening service.
I felt like the pastor read my mind...
because the sermon was about rest and why God
gave us a day of rest.
He spoke of being tired...
physically
emotionally
spiritually.
He spoke about how all of us are carrying burdens...
marriage problems, addictions, other issues.
He said God knows we need rest but God doesn't.
He is never tired.
He talked about honoring God by going to church.
He talked about giving the burden over to God.
God will help us carry it if we ask him.
It was a good sermon.
He used NIV.
Then he prayed at the end of the service.
I wept.
I did not get up and leave.
I stayed. I wept.
I did not feel ashamed.
I wept for a long time after the service was over.
When I came home my husband asked me about the service.
I told him everything.
I said I would go by myself every week if I had to.
My husband said next week I want to go with you too.
My husband said he felt afraid to go.
He said he was proud of me for going.
He said it took a lot of courage.
He said it gave him courage.
We will go together next week.
This is not my acomplishment.
This is God's will.
I felt grace in that church.
It came from being in God's house.
Broken as I am I am welcome in God's house.
We will go to God's house together.
This is God's will.
Broken as my husband is he is welcome too in God's house.
We will go together.
This is God's will.

No 2x4's please. I know this isn't how you thought it should go but in the end it is the way God planned it to go. So next week we will both be in church. God did NOT forsake me. God showed me the way.