LA,



This is more than okay with me but I choose not to answer anymore for others so I choose to answer with my truth.

I haven't finished reading the book yet am on page 117. I was first thinking I really wished that I had read this book 10 years ago but I choose to accept that I would not have been ready to really digest this material then and so it is appropriate that I am reading it now.



Yes, I do believe this. I think not understanding that there is actually a difference in healthy and unhealthy shame means that unless and until we are able to differentiate the two (which I could not do because I didn't even understand what has actually happened to me in my shame based family that carried over into my shame based marriage and has seeped into my shame based parenting and even into shame based teaching of school.)

My relationship with God prior to this was never "authentic" it was always shame based. I believed I had to "earn" my way and since I was already shamed based this just compounded my shame into the belief that whatever I did would never ever be enough because I was NOT good enough, worthy enough, etc.

God sees our authentic selves. He has always seen us. We cannot hide from Him and He doesn't want us to. He so fully showed that we are NOT God when he sent His son as He promised because He knew that no matter what we would never achieve a "God" like status. Christ's blood and his death are the gift we are given without any charge. Accepting this gift seemed impossible to me because I am a shame based person. Letting go and surrendering to God has set my feet upon the path to reclaiming my authentic self. This IMHO is what God wants.

When FH speaks of sanctification what that means to me (and I don't know if my definition is anywhere close to what FH actually means as I cannot read his mind.) is that God wants us to move into our authentic self. I personally cannot do that without God's help.

With God's help I feel protected from complete shame that can never be undone. I don't think God wants us to live in a constant state of shame because the actions of living in this state (our continued shame based sins to hide the authentic self, create a false self, and and protect the family secrets) does not move us closer to God. Accepting the shame of sin and removing the shame of the sinner is God's way of moving us closer to our authentic self and closer to Him. How can we ever recover our authentic self if we continue to live as a shame based individual. How can we forgive as God forgives us if we cannot become our authentic self and live in truth. I choose to believe that God wants us to BE our authentic selves.

He is so powerful in his ability to take care of us emotionally when we accept that his forgiveness? Jesus says love you neighbor as yourself.How can we ever love our neighbor if we cannot first love ourself. We cannot truly love ourself if we hide in a constant state of shame. Loving ourselves is NOT a selfish act. Some might think it is but I truly choose to believe this is NOT what God would say is a selfish act. In fact I think the complete opposite applies. If we don't learn to love our authentic self we will continue to "act out" in shame based cover ups and behaviors that are not only harmful to us but continue the cycle of shame for our children and those around us who we are in relationship with.

After reading Max's story in the Bradshaw book a lot connected for me about my own FOO. Since Max is a composite character it offers a lot of perspective into the whole concept of shame based families and how the shame is multigenerational. This is NOT about blaming our parents or their parents etc. It is about understanding where this shame originates from and how this shame continues cyclically until the patterns are broken and the shame that binds us is healed. I don't think God wants us to be unhealthy and continuing in shame based beliefs about our self because we will not be able to begin any kind of sanctification until we ourselves work heal our shame.

Our inner work with God's help is a process. For me the process began with my surrender to His absolute forgiveness and His gift of faith to me. Faith has never been something I thought was in grasp. My faith and trust in God is what allows me the ability to recognize ALL of it. I have been so enmeshed for so long and have developed such a poor sense of coping skills (they look okay on the outside because society teaches us the appropriate response...How are you? I am fine...good...okay when in fact I was not fine, good or okay on the inside.)

God gives me the courage to accept this. He gives me the strength to deal with and change the things that I can about myself. The serenity prayer takes on a whole new meaning for me. Addictive behaviors have been a part of my false self and are things I have kept hidden because of shame. Shame told me I was bad...self medicating through many different avenues from under/overachieving to continual disconnection from self and medicating. When I think how often I have done everything in my power not to GO THERE...because the shame is so great I am not surprised by all the poor choices I made in an effort to NOT feel that shame.


Yes, for me it is clear cut. God loves us so much and His love is unconditional. He gives us consequences because He doesn't love the sins...He loves us and the consequences when we accept them for what they really are (checks and balances) move us out of living as a shame based person.

How will we ever be able to do God's work (loving others with Christlike love) if we are unable to remove the plank from our own eye? The plank is our sin..the speck in our neighbor's eye is the judging we do without first accepting our own sins and moving toward healing with God. We will not be very helpful to others if we aren't first helpful to ourselves.

Do you think it is possible that because in many other cultures there is more than one for shame and in ours there is really only one? Is it possible that we use the word guilt in association with shame because shame has only negative implications in our society? If we had 2 words for shame would it make a difference...or is this only semantics? I don't know.

I have a lot of questions about shame and FOO and what happens to us when we have become so enmeshed that we are frozen in this state. There is much relearning for me to do. I am honestly glad to do this work. I choose to believe that God will help me face my fear and help me to replace long standing unhealthy shame with my authentic self. What an awesome God we have.

Jilly, sorry for the delay in responding. I've been in Atlanta for the weekend and just got back home. (Cubs lost....grrrr..)

The answer to your question is that the use of Red Letters is intended to highlight the actual words of Jesus.

It simply makes it easier to identify when it is the Lord Himself who is saying something directly rather than someone else. It goes to things like the "inspiration" and "inerrancy" issues of the Scripture also, because Jesus clearly states the information in the Old Testament is factual and true, and provides a "bridge" to the beginning of the New Testament fulfillment of OT prophecies concerning the Messiah and God's direct stating of many truths.


And it sounds as though you have found a wonderful church to attend.

God bless.

FH,

Sorry about your team hope the rest of your time was fun.

Thank you for the clarification on the red texts I thought that might be it BUT I am no longer going to assume things (or at least I should say I am trying not to do that anymore in any context...because I assumed too much in the past and it got me in a false sense of selse and a false sense of security.)

I have noticed that there are many references to the OT in the NT. The pastor made reference to one last night when he spoke about God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac...that it was like a precursor to what God himself was going to do...sacrifice HIS only Son. Because Abraham trusted and had complete faith in God he was willing to go the distance. God provided a ram in the thicket that was ultimately replaced for Isaac because Abraham trusted God so much. I have heard this story many times growing up but I wondererd last night if Abraham's utter and complete faith in God is why God provided the ram. Did God reward him for his faith? Does God reward our faith? I know he does in eternal salvation but what about in the day to day? I think he does... In His word he promises to provide for us when we believe and have faith that He will.

The word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. I think this part of last night's sermon means to me that by reading and studying His Word He will show us what and where we need to go...or do...or be.

FH do you believe that God wants us to be our authentic self and live in truth? Would you explain what your truth is regarding sanctification and what it means to you? Is self work selfish? When I was growing up I was taught that true JOY is

J= Jesus
O= Others
Y= Yourself

It would seem to me that if you put others before yourself and you aren't healthy then this isn't going to bring much joy to anyone. I think Jesus is in the right place and perhaps others can be second but only if you yourself have put yourself if God's hands and allowed Him to lead you to the place you need to go. Back to what if you need to work on you first is that selfish in healthy way? Am I way off here in thinking that God wants me to act in a way that is honoring Him? Is is honoring Him to take care of myself? I think that He does want me to work on extinguishing the toxic behaviors in my life because they don't glorify Him. Am I anywhere close?

Jilly, time and space will probably not allow me to delve fully into this, so let's just touch on a few "highlights" if I may. Then, if you want to talk about some specfics you can ask about them and I'll try to answer those too.

1. The story of Abraham has a LOT of "stuff" in it. With respect to this particular incident, let's look at what was going on.

The story begins in Genesis Chapter 12 with the calling of Abram and the establishment by God of the "Abrahamic Covenant." This covenant promise was repeated in Chapter 15 and verse 6 is the "key," "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited to him as righteousness."

2. The "problem" of impatience with God and trying to "take things into our own hands is what Chapter 16 is all about, and is the beginning of a major problem that is still with us today.

3. In Chapter 17 (some 13 years after the birth of Ishmael) God again appeared to Abram and confirmed the covenant He had made with Abram, changing Abram's name to Abraham and Sarai's name to Sarah. God also honored Abraham's request to not "discard Ishmael," but gave the Covenental Promise to Isaac, not yet born, but known to God personally by name before he was even conceived.

4. In Chapter 22 we have the story you referred to of the testing of Abraham concerning the sacrifice of Isaac. There is much symbolism and foreshadowning in that chapter, but let's try to focus on the issue of the sacrifice asked of Abraham.

Abraham trusted God implicitly and completely at this point so that when God commanded him to "give up" the biggest blessing of his life, his ONLY son of the Promise, he followed God in humble obedience. I have often said to others here on MB that Christians need to surrender their lives to God and humbly obey God's commands even when we don't feel like it. Suffice it to say that Abraham loved Isaac as both his long-awaited son and as the "son of promise." Though Abraham most likely had no idea how God could keep His promise to him IF Isaac were sacrificed, Abraham "trusted God" and God's ability to do whatever He promised regardless of circumstances in our lives. God could even resurrect Isaac if that was how God intended to fulfull His covenant. Remember, God takes His covenants SERIOUSLY.

So, what sort of "types" are we dealing with here? There are many.

Isaac as the only son of Abraham and Sarah.

Isaac, trusting his father Abraham even though he "questioned" where the sacrifcial lamb was.

God seeing the heart of the believer (Abraham) and knowing that he put God, and obedience to God, before everything else, including his only son.

God intervening and saying, in effect, NOTHING you can DO is enough, but your willingness to do it IS enough....it's a matter of the heart.

God showing that ONLY what God provides is "sacrifice enough," and that God Himself provides the only "acceptable" lamb for sacrifice.

When God made the promise to Adam that HE would work salvation for us, God meant at the most terrible of "costs," the life of God's ONLY son, Jesus. And God did NOT withhold that sacrifice and DID resurrect Jesus from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy. Isaac was a type for what God Himself would do. Jesus would not want to die, as Isaac did not want to BE the sacrifice, and Jesus asked the Father 3 times to NOT have to be sacrificed on the Cross, "nevertheless, your will, not mine, be done." Complete and utter trust in God no matter the circumstances or the "cost" to us personally.

And today, the majority still continue to refuse the gift of that sacrifice, preferring the "mind of Man" to the "mind of God."




Of course. That is a prime reason why He gives believers the indwelling Holy Spirit to "guide us into all truth."





Sanctification is the process whereby God, through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, reveals sin in our lives to us and helps us to become more conformed to living as Jesus lived in union and harmony with God. We ARE not sinless, not before or after we have been saved. God "sees" us as sinless because our sins are "covered over" by the blood of Christ. But God knows that we have not yet received our glorified, sinless, bodies. So the process of Sanctification is to deal with sin in our lives, basically anything that would separate us from God by putting "something or someone" ahead of God. Even Abraham didn't get to where he was by the time of the "testing" with Isaac. It was a process that he went through, in his case of over 100 years in "getting there." Along the way he made "mistakes," such as trying to "hurry God's promise" through Hagar, rather than through Sarah. Sarah, too, had much to learn and often put her "feelings" or "emotions" ahead of God's promise.

The point is that NONE of us is, or can be, perfect. Only Jesus was perfect. We are "bought" by the price of Jesus' blood, but we are bought with all the flaws we have. We become a "new creation" in heart and spirit, not physically. God can destroy us and make a new person of us, like a Potter with a flawed vessel, but it is appointed unto Man ONCE to die, and then the resurrection. We WILL have a new body, but that is in the future. In the meantime, we try to use what we have to God's glory. We try to polish it and use if for more and more things that glorify the Potter, not the pot.

We, believers, are His. It is our love for His love for us that "motivates us" to try to "do less sinning" because we know that all sin is hateful to God. We don't do it to "earn" "sonship." We ARE His sons and daughters. We do so out of love for Him in that He did NOT withhold His Own Son from His requirement for the only way we could be reconciled to Him and adopted in as true Sons and Daugthers IN Christ. We love God because God first loved us, and gave His only begotten Son for us, while we were yet sinners.

Sanctification can be thought of as "walking with God" in the same attitude that Christ had. And the "caveat" is the same as Peter's, "Peter, why did you take your eyes off of me?"

God bless.

When we see our sinfulness held against God's spotless perfection, we cannot help but feel ashamed.

The Holy Spirit's job is to bring us to that point, then take us beyond it. "Good" shame (not the long-lasting, crippling guilt that is a tool of Satan) shows us that we need God, that we cannot make it on our own, and leads us to desire the covering of Christ's righteousness.

The Holy Spirit leads us through the shame experience into the saving grace beyond.

Neak,



I couldn't agree more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH,


Thanks for sharing this. I remember the story of Hagar and Ishmael well. When I think of this story in context of what then happens with Isaac it makes more sense to me as to why God was testing him. Abraham's faith is amazing. Although he does have some expressed fear his faith and trust in God allow him to do what God asks of him allowing him to truly believe that God in fact would provide a sacrifice.

I have been struggling for the past 3 weeks or so with the fear that I might be pregnant. We had a condom malfunction to be clear (sorry I realize that is a lot more information than you probably wanted but I wanted to state it because we are NOT trying to get pregnant and are explicitly trying to prevent another pregnancy at this time> Neither my H or I feel that this would be a good time to have another child.)

So anyway after the fear set in of the possibility that I could be pregnant (I was late and 4 negative pregnancy tests later I finally got the final knowledge yesterday thatI am indeed NOT pregnant) I started really praying about it. The thing is that I know now that even if I pray in a way that I should (God whatever is Your will here...) He already sees what is really in my heart (God...please don't let me be pregnant.). So I realize that in this situation I was NOT truly surrendering this over to God correctly yet I understand that HE knows that and I know that and that I am trying in ALL aspects of my total surrender but am not currently as successful as I would like to be.

I DO trust God. I did feel like even if I was pregnant that in fact He would have been there to help us deal with that too. However in all honesty I did not nor do I want to be pregnant at this time or any time in the near future. I got to thinking about the malfunction and that God knew our hearts regarding this. Maybe I was late to test my faith. I guess that is certainly a possibility. I wonder if God is trying to help me strenghten my faith by showing me that in fact no matter what HE will take care of me.

In church last week one of the early prayers in the service (prayer led by the head of the church's band...prayed about us thinking about what we want versus what God wants. He was talking about how we think that God is not answering or supporting us when we don't get the answer we want. He suggested that we deeply look at that and accept that God does hear us and just because we might not get the answer we want doesn't mean He didn't hear us just that He in fact does know what is really in our best interest.

I choose to accept that God believes that this would not be a good time for us to have a new baby. I know that babies are a blessing from God and I prayed for God to help me accept whatever decision that He had for me. Was I relieved that I wasn't pregnant? Yes, I was. Would I have been okay if it had turned out differently? Yes, I truly believe that I would have been.

This is where I am. I am choosing to accept that my faith must continue to grow. I accept where I am and where I want to be in my R with God. The whole next series at church about "Experiencing God" is one that I really feel will be very important for me. Because my past experience with church gave me belief/knowledge about God but I didn't have faith or experience God one on one I think I really need to connect in a small group at church to further my trust/faith in God.

I have asked God for a lot of help in the last few weeks regarding decisions that I needed to make. One decision I had to make was regarding whether or not I should return to my graduate studies program. I really asked God to guide my decision here. I also asked my H of course about his feelings about it too. I took the summer term off because it started 3 days after D-day and I knew continuing during the summer would rob my family of any chance of any real recovery. I feel like if I would have taken the summer class I would have continued to "keep going" and stuff the feelings which has been a regular pattern for me. Deny feelings...disconnect emotionally...keep marching forward. God showed me that this can no longer be my way. I must deal with my emotional self, my "false self" and recover my "authentic" self with His help.

My choice regarding the class that started 2 weeks ago was to go to the first class and see how I felt. If I felt like it was going to be too much then I would not turn in add form at the end of first class. My H and I talked about this a lot before I went to first class. I felt okay after the class so I added. There is good and bad news about this. As I read the Bible in conjunction with the Bradshaw book and the book I am reading for my class a lot of themes appear to me in how my R with God and my shame based identity have affected my teaching and I see that through this class (the one I am in now) there is a deeper level of work to be done on a personal level regarding how my own shame identity, the shame that is so prevalent in school culture and my faith in God to lead me to make better choices and forge new relationships with my students is very important. I think God has a lot of lessons for me to learn through this class about how to incorporate my healing into my R with kids.

I see so much now how God is guiding my interactions with my students and how He encourages me to LISTEN with the whole of my heart to these little broken people and to do more with them on an emotional level...not just an academic one. I see what a gift from God I have been given as a teacher and how that gift is to be used to truly help my students beyond just academically. Because I teach in a public school I am limited in what I can actually say about God in the classroom as far as teaching itself goes (in other words I cannot teach a bible story or lesson) but I can say that I believe in God. I cannot ask them or suggest to them that they develop a R with God but it does open the door for those kids who are Christians to seek me out on an individual level. Not in whole class instruction but in a one on one conversation with a student if they ask me about something.

I see a change in my attitude toward my students and how we are problem solving this year differently then I have in the past. I am listening more...way more and asking different questions than I would have in the past. I am focusing on removing shame from the children (sadly schools are full of shameless people who because of their own shame pass it on consciously and unconsciously) and helping them to look at their behaviors with a different approach. I feel strong guidance from God here and I haven't felt this in the past so I feel like this is really a good thing.

I will share an experience about this. On Wednesday, a group of 5th grade boys (some from my class some from other classes) had a serious problem that led to name calling including racial slurs and hitting. It happened during lunch and I happened to be on campus back earlier than I normally am from lunch. When I dealt with the situation I really listened to each of the boys asking them to please be respectful and listen to each other without interrupting. By doing this we were able to get down to the root of the problem without shaming any of them and see that the problem was really about 3 of the 5 boys involved having a crush on the same girl. The hitting, name calling etc. had very little to do with the actual problem...it was a result of not listening to each other and understanding what the core issue was (jealousy).

I didn't send any of these kids to the office or dole out serious consequences and started off the process by asking them to accept responsibility for their own actions and as a result all the boys were honest about their actions (the fear of the consequences of suspension were removed and that in and of itself lowered everyone's stress level and need to blame or shame.) The end result was all of the boys admitted their actions and each one of them owned what they did and made amends to the person or people their actions hurt. It ended with each boy shaking hands with each other with a forgiving spirit and the desire to work together to keep this from happening again. God quieted me through this whole problem solving approach and I was amazed at how much impact authentic listening really had on me and these boys. I literally watched each boy's physical body language change in conjunction with the release of shame and the ownership of their behavior.

The boy from my class has some anger management issues.I have asked God to guide me in how to help this boy who has had problems both socially and academically his whole school career. I have been working with him on specific strategies to deal with his anger is a healthy way which will allow him to have these feelings still but to choose differently about how he deals with them. His parents seem genuinely surprised by my approach to dealing with him since he has been in constant trouble since kinder. They seem shocked that someone might actually want to try to get to the heart of his anger issues with a helpful spirit rather than a punishing one.

Sadly yesterday during lunch (I was off campus during lunch) this boy got into a fist fight with a girl(none the less) on the playground. Both kids had already been sent to the office by the time I returned to campus and therefore I wasn't a part of the decision making process that doled out suspensions for both kids. I am wondering if I should ask (the admin. at my school knows I am working on admin. credential) if I can be involved with any and all problem solving for this boy because he and I have begun to develop a trust bond that allows him to feel "safe" in expressing his emotions and feelings with me. I have witnessed some serious growth with him in class but since I am not on the yard on every recess...I will not always be present when outside yard issues occur with this boy.

This goes back to me finishing my administrative credential/master's degree in educational administration. I see the continuing on with God's help as a chance to ultimately help a larger volume of students with better non shaming principles and radical honesty with integrity for all students, parents, teachers...etc. Could this be a road God wants me to pursue? In healing myself through inner work with God...in myself, my M, my family... I believe I will become more equip to be a better person with better problem solving skills. I am now seeking God's guidance as to whether He may be calling me to do this work. Could He be? What do you think about this?

I bought my DD age 7 a new NIV children's bible for 5-8 year olds and also a book of bible stories which we have started reading at night for her bedtime stories. She really was so excited to get her "own" kid's bible and has asked some profound questions about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and other biblical figures through this nightly ritual and I was very touched when she started sleeping with her "pray sheep" (this is what she calls him...it is a little stuffed sheep that when you squeeze it says this prayer..."Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep. Angels watch me through the night. Until I wake to morning light. Amen") She recites this with pray sheep several times right before she goes to sleep...her choice, her idea. Since she has a gazillion bazillion other stuffed animals that she loves...yep she loves them all. She was so cute when we were reading the creation story about Adam and Eve naming all the animals. She said "Mama...it is kind like what I do when I name each stuffed animal." She said, "God was nice to let them have all those animals and even choose their names." Oh, the innocence and beauty of a child. I really enjoy this special one on one time with my daughter.

I am trying to connect with my DSS age 12 on a spiritual level as well. I want to purchase a book and 2 bibles for him. I think the NIV for teens and maybe the Message bible that he can use in tandem. I know the Message isn't scripturaly as accurate but I do think parts of it will help him understand the NIV version better and since he has the least amount of scriptural background in our family (yes, we dropped the ball big time with him) he will need because he is older and has had more time to form his own opinions about the world and God.

Since we were not actively teaching (we by not actively teaching them were still teaching them something by teaching them nothing) either of our kids about God really (he stopped going to Sunday school with my in laws a long time ago but my DD loves to go so she has continued going) we will need to help him differently with his R God. I have had some discussions with him and I have a sense of where he is in his R with God. He asked me if I was a bible legalist or literalist( I didn't even really know what he meant when he asked me that and asked him to explain what he meant by that) and then told me he isn't. In other words he does NOT believe the bible is timeline or stories like Adam and Eve are true. I am not really sure how to help him "experience God" for himself. My thinking is that since he has expressed interest in attending the church's jr. high youth group that this might be a good starting point. He and his buddy both want to go...well it doesn't hurt that there are lots of "cute" girls their age there. I accept that this might not be the right reason for him to get involved with church community I am willing to risk his reasons for wanting to go in return for the other gifts he will receive as direct result of him simply attending. It doesn't hurt that his buddy is a Christian and wants to go to church with our family either. His buddy currently attends a different church with his older sister (his parents don't go at all) but stated that he would really like to go with us to church. We called last weekend because he was at our house all weekend and asked their permission before taking him to church with us and they said it was fine. Do you think this sounds like a good starting place to go with my DSS? I want to develop an open and honest spiritual R with my SS too. We have a good R already but there is a spiritual component missing in regards to his upbringing and knowledge about God. Please feel free to offer any advice about what we might do to help foster and develop our son into the body of Christ.

Finally...I posted to LA regarding doing some of the Bradshaw work. I am linking that post to her here to get your input on. Whatever you choose is okay by me. I respect you and your spiritual guidance to me.

Link to LA...
LA Thread

God Bless you.

Jilly, I have not read the Bradshaw book and am unfamiliar with it's contents, so I'm probably not a good resource to discuss the book. If there are specific question perhaps that your reading generates that you'd like me to comment upon, I'll be happy to try to do that.

With respect to your son, I would NOT give him the Message book because it would "reinforce" his current misunderstandings. Stick with the Word of God itself and be prepared to help him with any questions he might have. But the choice is yours as to how you think to best proceed.

One potential starting point for you, with respect to his stated position concerning "legalist or literalist" is for YOU to get a good understanding of those terms, as well as an understanding of how HE defines those terms in his own mind.

Part of that process could also include talking about Jesus. If he believes Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, and that Jesus speaks the truth, then you can bridge to what Jesus said about the Old Testament and the "literal veracity" of what it records.

You application of "what you have learned" to the schoolyard situation is VERY good. But don't be too surprised because that is part of WHY God helps us. "So that we may comfort others with the same comfort that we ourselves have received."

As for the "shame" thing you were referring to, I'll see if I can dig up something I posted a long time ago that might have some bearing on what you are feeling and thinking about. If I remember right, it was from a book by Smedes. Regardless, I'll let you know the source if I can locate the post.

God bless.

Jilly, here's the post I referred to above. I hope it helps you and may even generate a few questions in your process of Sanctification. Perhaps your husband might also find it helpful if you care to share it with him.

God bless.




Do you dare release the person you are today from the shadow of the wrong you did yesterday?

Do you dare forgive yourself?

To forgive yourself takes high courage. Who are you, after all, to shake yourself free from the undeniable sins of your private history – as if what you once did has no bearing on who you are now?

Where do you get the right – let alone the cheek – to forgive yourself when other people would want you to crawl in shame if they really knew? How dare you?

The answer is that you get the right to forgive yourself only from the entitlements of love. And you dare forgive yourself only with the courage of love. Love is the ultimate source of both your right and your courage to ignore the indictment you level at yourself. When you live as if yesterday’s wrong is irrelevant to how you feel about yourself today, you are gambling on a love that frees you even from self-condemnation.

But there must be truthfulness. Without honesty, self-forgiveness is psychological hocus-pocus. The rule is: we cannot really forgive ourselves unless we look at the failure in our past and call it by its right name.

We need honest judgment to keep us from self-indulging complacency.

Let me recall the four stages we pass through when we forgive someone else who hurt us: we hurt, we hate, we heal ourselves, and we come together again.

We all hurt ourselves . Unfairly, too, and sometimes deeply.

God knows the regrets we have for the foolish ways we cheat ourselves. I smoked cigarettes too long, and while I puffed away on my pack-a-day, I feared the time that I would say: you fool, you fool, dying before your time, and you have no one to blame but yourself. Then there are the opportunities spurned, disciplines rejected, and addictions hooked into – they all can haunt you with a guilty sense that you did yourself wrong.

But the hurt your heart cries hardest to forgive yourself for is the unfair harm you did to others.

The memory of a moment when you lied to someone who trusted you! The recollection of neglecting a child who depended on you. The time you turned away from somebody who called out to you for help! These are the memories, and thousands like them, that pierce us with honest judgment against ourselves.

We do not have to be bad persons to do bad things. If only bad people did bad things to other people we would live in a pretty good world. We hurt people by our bungling as much as we do by our vices.

And the more decent we are the more acutely we feel our pain for the unfair hurts we caused. Our pain becomes our hate. The pain we cause other people becomes the hate we feel for ourselves. For having done them wrong . We judge, we convict, and we sentence ourselves. Mostly in secret.

Some of us feel only a passive hatred for ourselves. We merely lack love’s energy to bless ourselves. We cannot look in the looking glass and say: “What I see makes me glad to be alive.” Our joy in being ourselves is choked by a passive hatred.

Others sink into aggressive hatred of themselves. They cut themselves to pieces with a fury of contempt. One part of them holds its nose and shoves the other part down a black hole of contempt. They are their own enemy. And sometimes, in the ultimate tragedy, their self-hatred is acted out in self-destruction.

Of course, your inner judge may be an unreasonable nag, accusing you falsely, and flailing you unfairly. On the other hand, your better self often sweeps real guilt under a carpet of complacency. You con yourself just to save yourself the pain of confrontation with your shadowy side.

In any case, you shouldn’t trust your inner judge too far.
Still, he is your toughest critic, and you have to come to terms with him.
So let us move on to love’s daring response.
What happens when you finally do forgive yourself?
When you forgive yourself, you rewrite your script. What you are in your present scene is not tied down to what you did in an earlier scene. The bad guy you played in Act One is eliminated and you play Act Two as a good guy.

You release yourself today from yesterday’s scenario. You walk into tomorrow, guilt gone.

Again, the word that fits the case best is “irrelevance.” Look back into your past, admit the ugly facts, and declare that they are irrelevant to your present. Irrelevant and immaterial! Your very own past has no bearing on your case. Or how you feel about it.

Such release does not come easy. The part of yourself who did the wrong walks with you wherever you go. A corner of your memory winks at you and says, “Nice try old chap, but we both know the scoundrel you really are, don’t we?” It takes a miracle of love to get rid of the unforgiving inquisitor lurking in the shadows of your heart.

Perhaps nobody has understood the tortured route to self-forgiveness better than the Russian genius Dostoevski. In his novel Crime and Punishment, he portrayed the inner struggle of self-forgiveness in the soul of a murderer named Ilyon Raskolnikov.

Raskolnikov did something as evil as anyone can do. He brutally murdered a helpless woman, and old pawnbroker – a miserable woman to be sure, and miserly, and mean, but innocent still. His guilt was stupefying.

No soul can bear such guilt alone, not for long. Sooner or later one must tell. Raskolnikov found a girl, an angel, Sonia, and he confessed to her. He told her everything.

She persuaded him to admit everything to the police, and he finally did. He was sent to prison in Siberia.

The loving Sonia followed him there and waited for him to forgive himself so that he could find the freedom to accept her love.

Raskolnikov could not forgive himself. He tried to excuse himself instead.

He came to grief, he said, “through some decree of blind fate”; he was destined to kill the old woman. Besides, when you come right down to it was his act really that bad? Did not Napoleon do the same sort of thing and do they not build him monuments? In clever ways like this he excused himself by finding deep reasons why he was not to blame.

Raskolnikov did not dare to be guilty.

“Oh, how happy he would have been,” wrote Dostoevski, “if he could have blamed himself! He could have borne anything then, even shame and disgrace.”

Yet, now and then, Raskolnikov did get a glimpse of “the fundamental falsity in himself.” He knew deep inside that he was lying to himself.

And finally it happened. How it happened he did not know. He flung himself at Sonia’s feet and accepted her love. “He wept and threw his arms around her knees.” He finally had the power to love. And his power to love revealed that the miracle had really happened; he had forgiven himself.

He forgave himself? For such a crime as cold blooded murder? Yes. “Everything, even his crime, his sentence and imprisonment seemed to him now . . . and external strange fact with which he had no concern. ”

Release! Release by a discovery that his terrible past was irrelevant to who he was now and was going to be in the future. He was free from his own judgment and this was why he was free to love.

Raskolnikov stands out in staggering boldness to show us that even the worst of us can find the power to set ourselves free.

Finally, the climax of self-forgiving; it comes when we feel at one with ourselves again. The split is healed. The self inside of you, who condemned you so fiercely, embraces you now. You are whole, single; you have come together.

You are not being smug. You care very much that you once did a wrong. And you do not want to do it again. But you will not let your former wrong curse the person you are now. You take life in stride. You have let yourself come home.

It does not happen once and for all. The hate you felt comes back now and then, and you reject yourself for doing what you did. But then you come back to yourself again. And again. And again.

To forgive your own self – almost the ultimate miracle of healing!

But how can you pull it off?

The first thing you need is honesty. There is no way to forgive yourself without it. Candor – a mind ready to forego fakery and to face facts – this is the first piece of spiritual equipment you need.

Without candor you can only be complacent. And complacency is a counterfeit of forgiveness. Some people are superficial, there is no other word for it. Drawing on the top layer of their shallow wits, they pursue the unexamined life with unquestioning contentment, more like grazing cows than honest human beings.

The difference between a complacent person and a person who forgives himself is like the difference between a person who is high on cocaine and a person who has reason for being really happy.

Then you need a clear head to make way for your forgiving heart.

For instance, you need to see the difference between self-esteem and self-forgiveness.
You can gain esteem for yourself when you discover that you are estimable, that you are in fact worth esteeming. To esteem yourself is to feel in your deepest being that you are a superb gift very much worth wanting, God’s own art form, and a creature of magnificent beauty.

Sometimes you gain self-esteem only after you come to terms with the bad hand you were dealt in life’s game.

I know a man who has what is cruelly called the Elephant man syndrome; a tough hand to play, but the only hand he has. He has learned to see the beautiful person he is beneath his t horny skin, and he esteems himself – because of what he is. Kim, on the other hand, is a beautiful adopted child whose birth-mother dealt her a genetic disease. Kim has chosen to accept herself as an incredibly splendid gift of God because of what she is, and in spite of the tough hand she was dealt.

Blessed are the self-esteemers, for they have seen the beauty of their own souls.

But self-esteem is not the same as self-forgiveness. You esteem yourself when you discover your own excellence. You forgive yourself after you discover your own faults. You esteem yourself for the good person you are. You forgive yourself for the bad things you did.

If you did not see the difference, you may shout a thousand bravos at yourself and never come to the moment of self-forgiving. So you need a clear head about what it is you are doing.

You also need courage. Forgiving yourself is love’s ultimate daring.

The reason it takes high courage to forgive yourself lies partly with other people’s attitudes toward self-forgivers. Self-righteous people do not want you to forgive yourself. They want you to walk forever under the black umbrella of permanent shame.

I understand these people; I am one of them. There is something inside of me that wants a wrongdoer, especially a famous wrongdoer, to keep a low profile, to take the last place in line, to speak with a meek voice; I want him to grovel a little. Maybe a lot.

So, when you walk and talk like a person who has sliced your sinful past from your present sense of selfhood, you will need courage to face the self-righteous crowd.

Then you need to be concrete.

You drown in the bilge of your own condemnation for lack of specificity. You will almost always fail at self-forgiving when you refuse to be concrete about what you are forgiving yourself for.

Many of us try, for instance, to forgive ourselves for being the sorts of persons we are. We are ugly, or mean, or petty, or given to spouting off; or, on the other hand, we are too good, a patsy, everybody’s compliant sucker, humble servant to all who want to get something out of us.

But people who try to forgive themselves for being wholesale failures are not humble at all; they are really so proud that they want to be gods. John Quincy Adams, not the greatest, but a very good President, could not forgive himself. “I have done nothing,” he wrote in his diary. “My life has been spent in vain and idle aspirations, and in ceaseless rejected prayers that something should be the result of my existence beneficial to my own species.” The last words spoken by the great jurist Hugo Grotius, the father of modern international law, on his deathbed, were: “I have accomplished nothing worthwhile in my life.” Such people sound humble with their moans about being failures in life; but they are really crying because they had to settle for being merely human.

You must call your own bluff: precisely, what is it that you need forgiveness for? For being unfaithful to your spouse last year? Good, you can work on that. For being an evil sort of person? No, that is too much; you cannot swallow yourself whole.

Most of us can manage no more than one thing at a time. “Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof,” said Jesus. When we overload ourselves with dilated bags of undifferentiated guilt we are likely to sink into despair. The only way we can succeed as self-forgivers, free from the tyranny of a tender conscience, is to be concrete and to forgive ourselves for one thing at a time.

Finally, you need to confirm your outrageous act of self-forgiveness with a reckless act of love. How can you know for sure that you gambled with guilt and won unless you gamble your winnings on love?

“She loves much because she has been forgiven much” –this was Jesus’ explanation for a woman who dared to barge into a dinner party uninvited, plunk herself at Jesus’ feet, and pour out a small cascade of love.

Love is a signal that you have done it, that you have actually released the guilt that condemned you. You won’t always know exactly when you have forgiven yourself. It is like reaching the top of a long hill on a highway – you may not be sure when you have reached level ground, but you can tell that you have passed the top when you step on the gas the care spurts ahead. An act of love is like quick acceleration. A free act of love, to anyone at all, may signal to you that you do, after all, have the power that comes to anyone who is self-forgiving.

You can buy her a gift! Invite him to dinner! Visit someone who is sick! You can put your arms around a friend you never touched before! Write a letter of thanks. Or tell Dad that you love him. All ways of confirming that we performed the miracle of forgiving ourselves.

Yes, love gives you the right to forgive yourself. And it gives you the power as well. At least to begin. Healing may come slowly, but better a snail’s pace than standing still, feet sunk in the cement of self-accusations.

To forgive yourself is to act out the mystery of one person who is both forgiver and forgiven. You judge yourself: this is the division within you. You forgive yourself: this is the healing of the split.

That you should dare to heal yourself by this simple act is a signal to the world that God’s love is a power within you.


(Forgiving Ourselves, Ch.8, Lewis B. Smedes, Forgive & Forget, Healing The Hurts We Don’t Deserve, p.71-77)

FH,


Okay...makes sense. Since he doesn't have much of any training in the Bible I see what you are saying...show him the truth. This is why I think it might also be beneficial for him to join the youth group.




This is the wikipedia definition of literalist:
Biblical literalism is a belief that goes beyond acceptance of Biblical inerrancy. Biblical literalists regard Biblical Scriptures as literal statements of truth. This is established by comparing Scriptures such as Proverbs 30:5-6 with 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 to affirm that the Bible is flawlessly true. This is contrasted with claims that metaphorical and allegorical statements are inherently untrue at some level. It is also contrasted with claims that the numerous metaphorical and allegorical interpretations of Scriptures splinter the Bible's meaning and provide an inconsistent -- and therefore flawed -- message.

The answer to whether or not I am a literalist is simply I don't know. I need some guidance and maybe a history lesson here. Some questions I have...are if one believes in the creationism (which I think I do) then how does one explain science...evolution? Can these theories exist in tandem? Is it black and white. I have an inherent problem with black and white. Black and white thinking has caused me to be very unhappy. If you will indulge me for a moment on this...black and white thinking leads me to make deductions that may not be healthy. On IQ tests they have a lot of deductive reasoning questions like if all whigs are snarks and some snark are borks...etc. Unfortunately I score really high on these kinds of logical reasoning questions. Now why would this be a problem? Because logical reasoning for me takes me AWAY from faith. Since I need faith more than anything else I don't know what to do with these questions and this type of thinking.

I do believe that Jesus put some people in their places when they questioned His works. For example (the legalists??) would question Him healing people on the Sabbath. It seemed to me that He kind of told those folks it wasn't there place to decide what God wants. Now this kind of thinking makes perfect sense to me. Jesus is God's son and therefore He had/has an infinite wisdom that none of the rest of will ever have no matter how much we study.

This is where I have had problems in the past...with what I would say are OT rules like eating meat or wearing jewelry. Again if I go back to deductive reasoning to try to figure this out I will inevitably come to the conclusion if A is God's law and B is God's law then if you don't follow A and B then you aren't following God's law and if you aren't following God's law then you won't be saved. See how this thinking is not healthy for me. My new acceptance that Jesus' blood covers all our sins (because we are inherently sinners...we are NOT God.) creates the only safe haven in which I can find respite.

Since I have etched into my upbringing the idea of Investigative Judgement (in other words that every thing I think and do is being recorded in a book of judgement that will later be used to determine my salvation) I have lived in fear so long that it would never be enough that in fact I gave up and turned away from God entirely for a very long time. The only way for me to be okay is to turn away not from God but from the very idea of investigative judgement. So therefore I deduced in the past that if one was a "good" Christian one would be following all God's laws so that when the time of investigative judgement came one's works would be "good" and therefore one's salvation would be "earned".

The idea of investigative judgement would seem to me to say that in fact the cross was not enough. I wholeheartedly believe now that the cross was enough and that God in his infinite wisdom recognized that none of his children (except for Jesus) would ever be without sin.

So this is where I get hung up on literalism. Help me out here FH. I do believe in the teachings of the bible. Does that make me a literalist? Many scholars have tried to interpret the Bible...who among us is qualified to make interpretations? Are all of us? Are any of us? I don't know. When I study the Bible I ask what does that mean to me and for me? Is this wrong thinking? Am I supposed to deduce for myself in my study or I am to look to others to interpret meaning? In the NIV study the footnotes on each page in addition to explaining also ask the individual reader to questions themself. For example Mary had faith that she was chosen to bare God's child. Then it asks how are we allowing God to work in us and through us? Mary had faith. If she didn't have real faith she would have had a really hard time with reconciling what happened. How can a virgin become pregnant? Joseph had to have faith too. He had to accept that God had chosen Mary and him as well to be the chosen parent's of Jesus on Earth (interesting to me that in a sense Jesus himself was an adopted child of sorts on Earth.) It speaks to the idea that ultimately all of us in the body of Christ are really adopted by our Father. You told me this before and it has so profoundly stuck with me that I cannot thank you enough for showing me that.

Mortarman in a post way back said that understanding that God is our Father means that if I wanted I could run in and sit on God's lap if I wanted to like a child. This brought me closer to the understanding that the relationship between God and us is that personal...that God really is that accessible to me. Even better for me personally is the understanding that God is NOT a shame based parent therefore He is the one I can always turn to and He will not shame me the person but rather shame the sin (the behavior) and that gives me courage and strength to go forward and embrace faith. Faith means that He will never abandon me EVER.

I try to ask myself what would Jesus say if he was here. I think Jesus dispelled a lot of hypocrisy during his time on Earth. The biggest thing I see when I ask this is that Jesus would say..."You are not God" and your job is not to question my authority. Your job is to accept me as your Father. Only He has the ability to truly see our hearts therefore we cannot really know what is in another's heart.

Can you explain to me the history of the Bible? I mean exactly when did it become the Bible in it's entirety? When was the first completed Bible available? Was this what was in the ark of the covenant? What exactly are the dead sea scrolls and how and when were they found and are they a part of what made up the Bible? I really want to know and please forgive my ignorance on this history.

This is the wikipedia definition for legalist:
Simply put, legalism is belief, stated or supposedly implied, that law, not faith, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption.

So it that is the correct definition of a legalist then no I am not a legalist because in being a legalist I would have to remove the belief that the cross wasn't enough. Legalists IMVHO are playing God...well at least that is what it seems like to me. I could be way off. Weren't the legalist so to speak those in the NT that had taken over the synagogues and started to take over the roles of the religious leaders? The best explanation for this for me is Matthew 5. It explains to me how the OT laws were being enforced by these legalists. The aspect of laws and who is enforcing them...making them etc. is again explained it Matthew 12:10-12. Basically it states simply Don't let rule keeping to blind you to human need.

Again Jesus was accused of breaking laws in Luke 6. It is so clear that Jesus understood the true meaning of God's law so inherently better than the religious leaders and that made them really mad. In fact so mad they killed him for it. Of course this was God's plan all along wasn't it...because He sent his only beloved son to be ultimately sacrificed so that our sins would indeed be covered with his blood.

God says..."Love one another as I have loved you." He loves us in-spite of our sins and imperfectness. Are we not to love one another in this same way? This would seem to put the deep needs we have over any set of laws. If we become so locked into so many set rules and regulations then we miss the bigger message. Are we more concerned about what people shouldn't be doing than we are about advancing God's Kingdom? If we are then we are in fact missing the point it would seem to reason to me.


Thank you because this is SO true. This is how the work happens not through laws but through real life application of what the message to us really is.

I am printing this one off to share with my H.

Again I know I am always asking a lot of questions...I need help to develop spiritually and since what I really desire is to be what God wants me to be I need support to get there. So again FH thank you for your time...help and most of all your patience with me. I truly see why we need the Body of Christ...because we all need help. The Body provides help.

So in summation I would say that I am NOT a legalist for sure and I am not sure if I am a literalist but I am leaning toward NO on that too if I understand Jesus's teachings correctly. If not point me back in the direction of scripture so I can this worked out too. Is saying that I am not a literalist saying that I don't believe the Bible...because I do believe the Bible.

Jilly, just a quick note to let you know I read your post.

The questions you raise are HUGE to discuss. Please, I understand your almost insatiable desire to know and take in as much as you can as fast as you can. But this a lifetime process. Think of it as "eating an elephant" and "slow down." Take it one bite at a time and allow yourself time to digest each meal. Eventually you will get through the whole thing, but not in one sitting.

With respect to what seems to be particular concern to you right now, the idea of putting some "label" on you such as "literalist," let me simply say to be careful with this. YOU will know what you are without a label, but others will like to use labels to "pigeonhole" you so as to attack you or your beliefs. In addition, before applying "labels" you need to fully understand how the person using a term DEFINES that term, it may not be what you think. I have recently had to ask someone to define what they meant by "Traditional" and "Fundamental" when applied to what it means to be a "Christian." They clearly implied there was an important difference in their mind concerning the two terms, and it's important to know how they interpret the terms they are using, especially since they were using them as a type of "label" for "acceptable and/or unacceptable" Christians.

I'll try to find some time to answer you more fully, but until then, it might be more helpful, and less time consuming, if you prioritized the things you want to talk ahout into more "bitesize" pieces instead of a sort of "goulash" all in the same bowl. Start with those most "pressing" to you and "rank" your questions from "most burning" to "would like to know at some point."

God bless.

FH,

I agree...I need to slow down and take some time to absorb some things. It isn't a race. I am going to be leaving for the rest of the school week for our yearly outdoor education program with the students. It's a four day program where we take the students to a camp near Yosemtite National Park. The kids stay in cabins and get to experience nature and the great outdoors in a totally different learning enviromnemt then many of them have ever experienced.

It will be good for me to be in nature.

However I feel some stress about being separated from my family right now. It is the first time we will have spent a night apart since D-day so although I am not concerned about the things I was a few months ago I still feel anxiety about being away. Our family although stronger is still very emtionally fragile and we all really need each other right now if this makes sense. I have always disliked being away from them each year at this time but this year particularly is harder. Please please pray for me and for my husband and our kids as we will be hanging tightly onto our new faith this week.

Yosemite and the mountains are a beautiful example of God's awesome power.

God Bless you FH.

I’m back, sorry about the terribly long delay. Things have been nutty around here trying to get ready for a major yard sale that will hopefully take place in 2 weeks, as well as doing major major work around the house. (My dear sister has been helping me. The armed forces don’t know what they’re missing, or they’d recruit her. She really gets things done! And the soldiers wouldn't be able to stand upright when she finished with them.)

How was Yosemite?



Well, the Sabbath is such a beautiful subject, a gift of God that He gives us to rest in Him, which is especially precious in this turbulent world in which we live.

It’s also a really big subject, so I’m going to break it up into three sections. The first is going to deal with the question of obedience. Does God expect us to keep His law? If not, then all other questions about the Sabbath are irrelevant. The second part will be the moral law vs. the ceremonial law, and where does each kind of Sabbath fit in? Then the third will be what the Bible says about the Sabbath itself, and what it means to us.


The Old Testament has a great deal about obedience, and the promises God makes to those who do what He asks. That alone is worth studying, as all God’s promises, even those made to the Jews, are the spiritual inheritance of all Christians today. (Galatians 3:29) Even though we (most of us) no longer keep the ceremonial laws, the principles and promises are still there for us to claim and learn from.

Since I am not actually writing a book on the subject, lol, mostly I want to focus on the New Testament, and the light Jesus and the apostles gave us, that magnified and clarified what we read in the Old Testament. Both are cohesive and intertwined, with the OT giving the picture in symbols, especially with the sanctuary, services, and feasts, while the NT shows Jesus as the example and fulfillment of the Old.

Note: As always, context in Bible verses is very important. I would encourage you to look up the following verses on your own, and read the surrounding passages. To continue your study regarding God’s law, and how it relates to obedience and grace, it would also be very helpful if you would study the entire book of Romans. With effort, I managed to resist copying and pasting the entire thing here.

The first chapter of Romans contains a whole list of sins, certainly not exhaustive, but many of the worst ones. As he brings the list to a close, Paul speaks very sternly to those who condemn those sins in others, while practicing the same evil themselves. Then he says this:

Three points we get from this:
1) God judges us by our deeds (works), verse 6
2) Those who are obedient will be rewarded with eternal life, verse 7
3) Those who do not obey will receive trouble and wrath, verses 8, 9

A little farther along in Romans 2, which is all a fascinating read, verse 13 says:


Law and grace are delicately balanced, as well as obedience and salvation. Each of them has a very important role to play, and each one is critical in our walk with God. Although I am trying to stay focused on law and obedience, it just isn’t possible (for me, anyway), to get through without at least touching on the other two.
Romans 5: 19, 20

So one of the purposes of the law is to bring a knowledge of sin. But it does NOT justify us, and it does NOT save us, any more than a dam builder goes to work with a tennis racket. The law has its place, but when it comes to our salvation, it is not the right tool for the job.

But what about grace? On the radio and TV, any time the law is mentioned, you almost always hear, “But we aren’t under the law. We’re under grace.”

And yes, we are. If we have accepted Jesus in our hearts, we are no longer under the law, but under grace. But does that cancel out the law? Does it mean we don’t have to obey?

Romans 6:1-4

Paul uses the strongest possible language (without resorting to swearing), to make this very plain. Because we are under grace, should we continue to sin, so there will be more grace? “God forbid!”

If we are dead to sin, how can we keep living in it? The answer is, we can’t. Baptism symbolizes this, that we have died to sin, and are to walk in newness of life. “To walk” implies day after day after day, no longer living in sin, but continuing in our new life in Christ.

Not that we don’t sometimes make mistakes, but we do not knowingly cherish any sin, whether it is large or small. Being dead to sin means, for the alcoholic, that he or she is no longer continuing to get drunk. For the drug addict, it means giving up the addiction. For the thief, it means no longer stealing. For the adulterer, it means no longer committing adultery. For the murderer, it means no longer killing.

It works the same way for the “little” sins, too. The gossip stops gossiping. The angry person controls their temper. The critical person stops criticizing.

This is not legalism, THIS IS GOOD NEWS!!! You don’t have to be bound by sin any more – God will change you into His image!

Romans 6:10-14
And there we have the context for that often-quoted verse about law and grace.

“Dead to sin.” “Do not let sin reign in your mortal body.” “Do not obey sin’s lusts.” “Do not present your members as instruments of unrighteous ness.” “Be an instrument of righteousness.” “Sin is not to rule over you.”

And why are we not in bondage to sin? Because we are under grace, and no longer under the law. In other words, we do not disobey because we are under grace; we obey because we are under grace.

The very next verses put it this way:

Romans 6:15-18

Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? Certainly not!

So… Under Grace = Not Sinning

But if we make a mistake, God has still made provision for us.

1 John 2:1-2

Romans 7:5-12

1) When we were in the flesh our sinful passions were arounsed.
2) We have been delivered from the law. The law says we should die for breaking it.
3) Now we serve in newness of the Spirit, no longer only obeying just the letter of the law.
4) We would not have known sin except by the law.
5) If there were no law, there would be no sin.
6) The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, just, and good.

When Paul looked in the law, he saw all his shortcomings. He saw that, even if he had not broken the letter of the law, he had broken the spirit of it by his evil desires. He saw that the law condemned him, and he deserved to die.

There was no flaw in the law, but it showed him all too plainly how terrible a sinner he was.

At first glance it might look as if he is saying that sin and the law are in cahoots, but he clarifies this in the next verses.

Romans 7:13
The commandment causes sin to become “exceedingly sinful”, by showing the contrast of what God’s beautiful character is like.

1 Corinthians 10 talks about the children of Israel in the wilderness, and their terrible mistakes. Paul says that those things were written for our example, that we would not make the same mistakes. They lusted after evil things, committed idolatry and sexual immorality, tempted Christ, and complained.

1 Corinthians 10:11-13
This is the answer to it all. We do not EVER have to sin. Not even one little teensy weensy time. God does not let us be tempted above what we can bear, and always makes a way of escape.

Every time we sin, it is because we choose to. With God’s power, we can be perfectly obedient. That is what He asks of us, but only because He will help us to do it. And if we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father.

Hebrews 5: 8-9
Jesus learned obedience through His sufferings. Of course He never sinned, but that was only because He walked the same road we must take, if we are to follow Him. But He had to not only not sin, He had to not sin day after day, tempted by the same temptations that we face.

And having conquered temptation, and demonstrated perfect obedience, He has become the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

(As we talked about before, we are not ever ever ever saved by our obedience. Nothing we do can gain us salvation, or any favor with God. But once we have been saved, our new love and new life lead us into obedience, so that we do not continue to hurt our Savior with our sins.)

God expects us to obey, but also provides the power to do it. “Without me, you can do nothing.” John 15:5 It is only as we receive His power that we are able to do any of the things He asks.

To me, it is like a father who expects his 2yo to get him a car for a Father’s Day present. When Father’s Day rolls around and there is a nice new car in the driveway, and a little boy standing there beaming up at his dad, you can make some assumptions. You KNOW the little kid did not do this alone. His mom provided him with the transportation to the dealership, guided his choice of vehicle, gave him the money to pay for it, and then brought him home again. Really, all he did was agree to go along with her.

It is exactly the same for us. We have nothing to bring to God. He provides the salvation, the grace, the power to obey, the desire to do what is right. All we can do is open our hearts and be willing to let Him work on us.

I'm going on another out-of-state trip today, but will keep posting as I am able.

What a wonderful post Neak.
Thanks.

One of the things I have noticed is that as we become more obedient, it gets easier, and easier to follow God. We learn that he can make more of us than we could by our selves. He knows us, and he knows what we need to be happy, so when we obey, we find the happiness we seek much faster than we would on our own.

SS

FH, MM (so happy to see you are back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, LA, Neak, et. all,

I had to have some medical testing done this week. I missed two days of work because of a 24 hour heart monitoring test and some bloodwork to test my thyroid.

Please pray for me as I am a bit concerned that I may have hypothyroidism or possibly Grave's disease. I won't know until next week. Hopefully it is just stress...

Neak thanks for the post. I did read it and I am sorry I haven't responded. I have had a lot to think about the last week and so I will respond when things relax a bit here.


Thanks to all of you always.

Prayers already said. Let us know what's up.

Sorry I was out a while...as you saw in my post, things got a little heavy. I am just now catcing up on your thread.

SS - thank you, that was a neat way of saying it. Obedience is simply not taking the hard way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly - saying a prayer that your tests go well. No worries about not responding; when life is busy (when is it not?) I'm a little slow myself.

MM - glad to see you back, I will have to peek in and see how you're doing. We've missed you.

MM,

Your last post on your update thread really hit me hard. I am not sure why exactly it made me so sad but it did. I am sorry that you are not it seems going to recover your marriage. I am encouraged that the pain is lessening for you and I will continue to pray for you as I have during your time away.

FH has helped me a great deal in your absence and you both have helped my family start to go church together weekly. FH has provided spiritual guidance and support in your absence and it just shows me more and more how the body of Christ works. How people step in and step up. I have learned how much I need God in my life and how true your tagline is about who is the pilot in my life.

It is time for a newer ritual to read the Bible with my daughter (7) each night. She is standing here now telling me now that it is time. Not arguing for more time to watch TV or play but telling me it is our scheduled time with Jesus right now. A lot has changed in our life. Things are better in many ways.

I just wanted to thank you again for all that you have done through Christ to help my family. I am happy to report that my husband is now the spiritual leader of our family and that we also spend time in each day spiritually working together. God is amazing once you get to really know Him.

Keep the faith.

Hey all,

Just wanted to update as my doctor's office called today to say that all my tests results came back normal and nothing is wrong with me...just stress/anxiety which is not new for me. Thanks to all of you who prayed for me. I am really relieved nothing is wrong.

Keep the faith and praise the Lord.