MM + FH + Neak,

I am struggling with some emotional issues right now. Please pray for me and my family if you don't mind.

God Bless,
Jilly

Done, and glad your tests turned out well.

Jilly, prayer is easy, so consider it done. But if you'd care to talk about the specific emotional issues you are struggling with perhaps we can help a little more directly.

God bless.

JJ,

As was said above...the prayer was easy. And done. Care to elaborate?

FH, MM, Neak, LA,


I have been working through some issues with LA on another thread. Some stuff came up over the last weekend and I was processing through it. LA is helping me with it as she is good with this kind of emotional stuff. But in a nutshell it is really bottom line about addictions.

I know I have mentioned before that I made the choice to taper off several prescription meds which I have become dependent well actually more like addicted to. LA has me trace stuff back so since I haven't traced the addiction back yet I guess it is time to look at this. My H is also addicted to several prescription meds and has also chosen to get off of them too. So I guess we are what you call codependent I think that is what you call it.

If you want to read about the incident that happened with my H and the FOW STBX who he has befriended go to here

This is what started the cycle of me thinking harder about addiction in general and my own problems and my H's problems.

So to trace back my own addiction history (this will be long maybe and I don't know how important it is but tracing seems to help some.) I think the first habit (addiction?) I had started at a very early age...maybe around the time of my parent's divorce. I started biting my nails really bad. I bit my nails until I was in my 20's and stopped only after I started getting my nails done so the acrylics stopped me from biting my nails. I still get my nails done and therefore I don't bite my nails anymore.

I started smoking when I was 14. I smoked until around my junior year in college when I decided to quit. I patched up and quit. It was hard but I did it. I quit for a couple of years. I was smoking when I met my XH and quit during the time we were together. I started again a few months before we got married. I don't why just one day I decided I wanted a cigarette and then I was smoking again. I have always kind of been a closet smoker...not really a smoke in public kind of person as NO one in my family smokes and they have are very judgemental of smokers...I mean they knew at some point that I was smoking but when I quit they didn't know (or maybe they do and just have chosen not to say anything) I started again. Well let me be clearer...my mom knew and so did my sister. My dad and stepmom and that whole side didn't know.

I drank some in my teenager years. I never really liked it. I never really had a good time doing it and usually wound up sick. I drank once in a great while in my 20's and when I graduated from college I went out with a bunch of girls from my program got really drunk...very sick and that was pretty much the end of me and drinking. I just decided it was stupid...I didn't enjoy it when I was doing it and always wound up sick so I just decided I was done with it. I never drink alcohol now ever. I don't know if I had a problem with it or not...I wouldn't say I did because I never liked the way it made me feel. Some people think I am so weird because I am a total tea totaler. But I figured why do something that made me feel yucky...seemed kind of pointless to me. I guess it is a life choice for me. I serve alcohol at parties (Christmas etc.) but it is for our guests since neither my H or I drink. (He used to drink beer some when we were first together but he just stopped too. I didn't ask him to and I don't know his reasons for stopping just that he doesn't drink at all either ever.) Both of our families socially drink and there is some alcoholism in both of our extended families but none of our parents are alcoholics.Well sort of ...because my stepmom's first H was a full blown alcoholic.

I think my mom may have at some point had a problem with drinking but since she was Adventist (most of her life) she only did this drinking occasionally when she was kind of away from the church. I don't think Adventists are supposed to drink (I'm sure some do) and I am not sure if it is a rule (Neak probably knows the answer to this one) but I really only talked to my mom about her drinking later when she wasn't drinking and she told me she stopped because she LIKED the way it made her feel and she thought it best for her to abstain because she said she thought she had the potential to have a problem so she just stopped pretty much.

I think she probably had a glass of wine here and there with her friends (much later on) when they went to dinner and stuff but she didn't buy it or drink at home...except for a brief period after she and my dad divorced.

We eventually moved out of state after/during her first affair and maybe into her second affair. (Yes...I am now reviewing that my mom had 2 affairs with married men. I don't think she was involved with the first guy until after she was separated from my dad but I don't know for sure.

It was a LTA and my mom was not going to church during this time or not very active if she was. It was a complete mess. I don't know how old we (my sister and I ) were when it started but I remember when I found out. I was in the second grade.

The street we lived on was filled with people who taught at the university and their families.(My dad was a college professor.) The man my mom had her first affair was also a college professor and college of my dad'.They lived across the street from us. I think there was a lot of socializing that went on with the whole university folks that lived on our street with the U families. All I know is that after my mom and dad separated my dad moved out into an apartment and we stayed in the house for the next couple of years. I think he moved out when I was either in kinder or first grade. We became more friendly with my mom's affair partner and his family of course at the time I didn't know they were involved. His wife became our babysitter as my mom worked nights at the hospital and so sometimes it would involve us sleeping overnight at their house when my mom worked graveyard. It was all a very bizarre arrangement as we had chores etc. at their house and we ate dinner over there almost every night. Yeah...my mom and us and their family. My mom and his wife were good friends. We went on vacations with their family and in retrospect I think the whole thing was kind of a polygamist type of thing that was going on except the other man's wife didn't know for a long time that her H and my mom were having an affair. I recall one night when I was in about the second grade that I was supposed to be sleeping over there over night and I recall awakening on the couch to an argument between the three of them and this man's wife yelling at my mom and even at 7 I knew my mom had done something really bad with her husband and I didn't really understand but wanting to run out there and attack her for yelling at my mom. A total kid's desire to protect their parent. Well this just escalated to their family moving and then my mom and us moving to the same state about 30 minutes away from where they moved. I don't know if they moved to end the affair or not. I don't know the details of what happened after that too well except that I remember seeing the wife and kids a few times but not often so I am guessing the affair ended then at some point and then my mom got involved in affair number 2 with another married man. I don't know if he was or wasn't separated from his wife at the time only that he did eventually go back with his wife and that affair ended and my mom pretty much stopped dating altogether for a long time. Later I learned (much later as an adult that she got pregnant I am guessing during her second affair and had an abortion. I think this is the period of time when my mom may have been drinking.Or when she thought she may have had a problem with it anyway. I am not positive. Just the sense that this is about the timing that makes sense.

Okay so there is that piece of my life that I have known about but that had been pretty repressed until recently.

We got back into the church when I was in the fourth grade and that is when we began going to Adventist schools. We remained in this state until my mom's dad got very sick and we returned back to the state I have lived in from then on. We remained active in the church and I attended Adventist schools through the 10th grade. In 11th grade I went back to public school.

During both the time I was in Adventist school and public high school I experimented withs some recreational drugs. It was pretty much normal experimentation and I didn't really get too involved in any of it.

When I was about 18 I began to experiment with cocaine. This phase lasted less than a year. It was very common for the era of the 80s' . I got pretty deep into it for about six months and then one day I realized that although I liked the way I liked the way it made me feel when I was doing it but hated the way I felt afterward. One day I just was sitting outside on the back porch with my good friend who was living somewhere else at the time but going through her own experimental phase with it. I remember that conversation with her and looking at her and saying what the heck are we doing? It was during the course of that conversation that I stated I was ready to be done with it. And I was. I stopped hanging around any and all friends that were involved in it and just stopped doing it. It wasn't hard for me to stop at all. Same with the alcohol thing I just said I am done with this and I was. I don't think I was ever physically addicted to it because I didn't have any problem stopping or really ever thinking about it anymore. It was just done. That is kind of how I am with things. Or at least that is how I was.

Being married to an alcoholic I learned some things about addiction but not enough. I knew I didn't want to be a part of that and that it affected our life. I felt out of control because I never knew what to expect from him. I am not saying he was a bad person just that he had a problem and he didn't really want to stop. I didn't know enough about support groups and I knew that I couldn't fix this. I wanted to but I couldn't stop him from drinking. It affected our R on many levels but I didn't understand what enabling was or really what codependent was either. I was undereducated about it and I also didn't know at the time that he was self medicating his mental illness. I didn't know he was mentally ill...not really anyway. Knowing his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia helps me to understand that none of his addiction was ever really about me. His illness was not full blown yet either. I no longer wish to speak badly about my XH. He isn't a bad person at all. Just a person who has issues just like the rest of us...his are just ones that are very severe and since he has refused all treatment for his diagnosis and that later he chose he to medicate with meth and alcohol (he wasn't doing meth at least not to my knowledge when we were together although I suppose it is possible I don't think he was.) I think as his illness progressed he need to self medicate more to control what was happening to him and since he wasn't getting any treatment his addictions just became worse and maybe caused his second divorce. I wish for him peace and hope he can truly get some real help for his illness and accept his diagnosis and chose treatment. Because he is unstable because of his addictions and illness I feel it is best for me to stay out of it. I do pray for him though. God's guidance regarding this has left me with the feeling that it is best for me to stay uninvolved in his life because he could potentially be dangerous and I can't put my kids life in danger or mine or my H's.

None of the problems of my XH justify my choice to have my A with my current H and I want to make it clear that I no longer hold him accountable for any of my choices. Yes, there were problems in our M but that still never gave me any right to do what I did. That fog has lifted and I am take full accountability for my choice to have the A which was wrong.

After we separated I began to smoke more than just cigarettes...I started smoking weed....and not just once in awhile. It was something I started doing with my current H during our A socially at first and then I started doing it by myself and pretty regularly. When I got pregnant I stopped smoking any and everything. However during this time prior to my pregnancy I was suffering from long time migraines and then I broke my foot. I was prescribed vicodin for both of these. At this point the vicodin wasn't a problem for me and when I got pregnant I stopped taking any meds including even OTC Tylenol or anything at all. I was very health conscious during my pregnancy and after my D was born I never went back to smoking weed. My H quit smoking when I was pregnant (cigarettes...he was still smoking weed just not around me.) I knew he was doing it but I had come to the realization at this point in my life that we have no control over others choices regarding addictions and that we only have control over ourselves as far as addiction goes.

When my daughter was about a year old I fell and herniated some discs in my back and I was in severe pain. My back hurt all the time and I went on a regimen of pain meds and physical therapy...for about a year. I didn't even realize at this point that yet that I was developing a dependence on pain meds. In the words of Dr. Phil...we start things for one reason and then they can continue for another reason. It was also around this time that I found out all the stuff about my bio family and unfortunately I started having a lot of anxiety and panic attacks. Doctor diagnosed me with survivor's guilt/PTSD. I was them put on xanax. It was a necessary thing at the time because I was experiencing tachycardia in the 160-200 range. This is very dangerous. I had a lot of tests run at that time to rule out other things such as heart problems/BP etc. a full blood work etc. I didn't really get all that was happening to me. The stress of my mom death's during my pregnancy and then to find out all the stuff about my bio family in such a short time was overwhelming for me. I also didn't have the emotional tools to deal with it.

I was strongly cautioned about using xanaz and was very careful with it paranoid that I would become addicted to it..Between the back issues and my migraines I was physically in a lot of pain and emotionally under a lot of stress and I learned to cope by stuffing my feelings, disconnecting and medicating. I didn't put it together for quite some time that I was basically becoming dependent on the combination of pain meds amd xanax. My problem was more with the pain meds than the xanax because I was so strongly warned about it and not so much about the vicodin. At some point I started to realize I had a problem with the vicodin because it was relieving more than just physical pain. But I chose to ignore what I knew was potentially becoming a serious problem and more of a psychological one as well. So this was not a good choice on my part.

I recently watched an episode of the A&E show Intervention where the therapist said something that struck such a chord of truth with me. He said that addiction is about medicating feelings...ones we don't want to feel. The addict learns early on that unfortunately drugs (prescription, street whatever) work really well to make those feelings go away. But that of course doesn't solve the core issues. The addict has to learn how to deal with the painful emotions they don't want to face without chemically alerting.

It took me a long time to admit to myself that there really isn't a darn bit of difference about what I am doing and what a heroin addict is doing. Just because I am legally getting a prescription for an opiate it is technically doing the same thing to me. I was in denial of sorts for a long time and justified what I was doing because it was a prescription from a doctor and not a street drug. Huge mistake...there is a fine line with prescription meds and they can be just and detrimental as street drugs. It was an ugly truth that I have had to face.

Once I finally really admitted to myself the extent of my problem. It didn't help that right about the time I was coming into this thought process that my H's A happened and I started having serious panic and anxiety. My doctor upped my xanax and klonopin (I have been on the klonopin once a day for about 2 years. It worked really well and had pretty much eliminated my need for xanax altogether.) However after becoming suicidal after the D-day my doctor put me on Lexapro and then increased my xanax but left my klonopin dose alone.

As I got deeper into my R with God I really came to see my addiction issues. I knew that I wanted to stop taking most of these meds regularly and both my H and I started a taper program to get off. You cannot stop any benzo (xanax,valium, klonipin etc) immediately because there are serious side effects including seizures. So I knew that I was going to have to taper off the xanax which wasn't really a big struggle for me until two weeks ago when I started having elevated heart rates. Thus the medical testing to make sure there wasn't anything else going on. I was honest with my doctor about my situation and how I wanted to get off these meds so I am being medically supervised now in getting off safely but as FH you have noticed about me I am not as patient as I might be. Sometimes I want to hurry up and fix myself...like I was doing with trying to absorb to much of the bible and making too many demands on myself to hurry up and get better.

It took me many years to develop these addictions. I didn't realize at the time when I increased my xanax dose over the summer that I was just temporarily making my problems bearable (yes I was suicidal and yes God took that away from me and helped me with my desire to stop this viscious addiction cycle. But since my test results are negative for heart conditions etc. then it would suggest to me that the elevated heart rate/panic attacks may be a result or a too rapid taper off of the increased xanax dosage. I have discussed this with my doctor and she is working with me on a safe taper off program and thankfully she isn't doing with any judgement toward me. She has actually shown a lot of dignity and explained that my problem with presriptions is a lot more common than I might have known and that she was proud of me for wanting to try to stop so I feel like God has a hand in this too. By providing me with a doctor who is willing to treat me with humanity and compassion as I face and deal with this.

Emotionally where I am with this is I feel a mix of pride and disappointment. Pride that I am finally making the choice to get off this crap that has allowed me to some degree to disconnect from my true emotions and face them head on and disappointment that I got myself in this boat in the first place.

I want it to be like I have done with all the other times I decided to just stop and then once the decision is made it is done for me.This time the problem is more serious because other than smoking cigarettes I wasn't physically dependent on any of the other drugs I was taking. I am making good progress getting off the pain meds. I hit a plateau and have had a few setbacks but God has given me the strength to take it one day at a time and NOT give up.

I am not giving up but I am fighting some feelings of remorse for the consequences of my actions. I am at a plateau with the vicodin. You will all probably be appalled at the amount of vicodin (which I am openly going to admit as DOC.) This is really the only one of the three that I am trying to taper off of that my dosage has significantly increased over the course of the time of my taking it. It has been presecribed for both my back and my as a back-up med for migraines. Unfortunately I still have both back problems and migrines (fortunately I rarely take this for migraine as the newer migraine specific meds non narcotic) are much more effective and no addictive anyway. However I still have back problems and so it is a slippery slope and I have been trying to subsidize controlling my pain with Advil which isn't as effective but does provide some relief. I know that in part the tapering off of the vicodin in and of itself can cause rebound pain so I am keeping that in my mind as well. I am going to be straight up an honest about the extent of how much I have been taking of this so you can see just how deep this problem really is for me. About 6 years ago my initial dose right after the first back injury was to take 1-2 5mg vicodin 3-4 times a day as needed for pain. Your body does develop tolerance to this so my dose was then increase to 1-2 7.5 mgs 3 times a day as needed...and then upped to 1-2 10mg 2-4 times a day after a second herniation that occured about a year ago (in the C 2-3 range) plus dealing with an new MRI that showed herniation of L2-5 and C2-3 was not good news. I have physical scarring on my lower back from sleeping on a heating pad. When I first showed my doctor this scarring that was happening as a result of the need to use the heating pad to reduce the pain enough so I can sleep at night was concerning to her. So prior to my taper I was taking on some days up to 10+ 10mgs of vicodin a day. This is the equivalemt of about 80-100 mgs. of it a day. That is a boatload if you think about where I started at about maybe 10mgs a day.

Now to understanding what it is like to withdraw myself off this you have to really understand what it is like to come off of opiates or narcotic pain meds. At one time there was talk of moving me onto oxycontin ( a much stronger and much more addictive narcotic time realeased opiate.) I was so terrified to try that after I had heard so much negative press about it that I begged not to have to go on that. I am actually grateful in some ways because that would be even harder to get off then the vicodin because it is much stronger. They moved me up to the 10mg because they have less tylenol in them and if you are taking the amount of tylenol in the 7.5mgs (for some reason they have the most tylenol in them and that much tylenol is dangerous for your liver. After my recent bloodwork last week...my liver counts came back okay so I am okay as far as that goes and fortunately haven't done permanent liver damage to myself.

If you have seen a movie or documentary about someone withdrawing off heroin you will get a pretty accurate idea of what the withdrawal side effects are and they aren't pleasent at all. If I cannot do this ...get off of this with my doctor's supervision and support then I will make the choice to check myself into a rehab detox center if that is what it takes. I have made good progress getting way down on the vicodin in a short period of time. I am down to about 35mgs. a day which I know still sounds like a lot but each cut I make down has physical side effects that aren't very pleasent. I have had some setbacks (up one tab a day here and there due to pain) but have really dilligently committed to getting off. God has taken the mental struggle away but the physical is the consequnces of my sin of addcition that I will have to go through. I am going to attempt another cut...about 5mgs. next week so that will mean that I will suffer some physical side effects but mentally I feel okay about what I am doing.

As far as the other the xanaz and the klonopin both are bad and must be tapered off under the supervision of a doctor as well since it is dangerous to cold turkey these unless you can afford to check into a rapid detox and do it under medical supervision which is still an option. As far as those go I have been on the same dose 0.5mg of the xanax since I started them and actually worked with my doctor prior to D-day to start taking less. We had dropped my scrip of 30 a month to 15 a month until D-day when I started having uncontrolled panic attacks every day so she increased the number but not the strength to 50 a month. I have slowly been able to get to under 25 (in other words cut that dose in half over the last month.) I tried to cut our the klonopin which is .5mg omce a day and this is the one I tried to stop without talking to her about first...which was a mistake because it is a long acting one versus xanax which is a short acting one so I didn't figure out that I was having more panic and then feeling the need to increase the xanax when my heart rate started getting tachycardic again. After I told her that I had gone to taken the klonopin every third day she said no to break it in half first and still take it everyday amd stabalize at that. Then I can go to taking a half every other day etc. and see how that works because the goal is to get off the xanax first because of the potential for seizure if I try to quit taking all of them to quickly. So my hurry up and get off this crap strategy wasn't as good as I thought and could have potentially set me back. She said I am doing well with my vicodin taper and we will see what need to be done to control my pain etc. and how to go about it as I continue the taper process. My goal is to eventully be off a regular scheduled dose of vicodin period and to only have to take it PRN as needed when my pain is truly unberable and this I am hoping God will help me with so that I don't meed it at all.

When the incident with my H and the STBXH of the FOW happened it caused a setback for both my H and I as it raised both of our stress levels. I have been praying hard as has my H about what God wamts us to do regarding this. I am working on trying not to mother my H or to set his boundaries regarding this....set only my boundaries as I realize through the shame work with LA that I need to stay in the present and not live in the past (which triggers fear) or in the future (my MO of trying to control outcomes of things that haven't even happened yet. If you read the link to the other thread you'll get a better picture of how I have dealt with things in the past and how I have tried to control myself and others throught trying to predict the future which doesn't work as I am not God and have no control or idea what will happen in the future and to stay in the present and take it one day at a time. This is why I need God's help more than I ever really realized. My faith in Him has gotten me to the realization that I need to get off these meds and that He is there for me and helping me and that I just need to keep my R with him stromg. Going to church weekly has really helped as has reading my bible daily and praying in a way that I am learning from both you FH and MM about how my R with God is that personal and that I have nothing to fear from him as He already knows what is really in my heart and I feel that He does have faith in me too. That He is my father and that he will help me with this emotional and physical struggle in the day to day the more I give it over to Him. He is my ROCK amd I love him with all my heart with the purest kind of love I have ever felt.

The reason I asked for you all to pray for us is because I feel like the more people that are praying for us the better. We want to be clean and sober and worshiping God and not slaves to our darn prescription additions. It was God who gave me the strength to come clean with my doctor because although I have thought about confessing to her many times about how deep my problem is it wasn't until just recently that I felt the Holy Spirtit truly guiding my converstaion with my doctor.

Amd finally I am going to speak to the pastor's wife at church this week about setting up IC with her. I have been praying hard about who I should go to and I finally feel that God had in fact given me that answer as far as who to go to for IC. She is the one...I feel it from God. The church also has addiction recovery smaill groups which may be where my H and I need to start our small group work within our new church family.

So I hope you have a cleared picture of why I feel we need people praying for us. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my honestly about my issues and why they are heavily weighing on me emotionlly.

I am praying that with God's help that I will be able to do this with Him, my H's support, my doctor's supervision, and some IC. I am willing to enter a lock down rehab. if that is what it takes but I am praying that I can do it without that. I think God will show me what path I need to follow and I am willing to go whatever way God leads me.

God Bless you all for all of your support. I kmow many of you have your own very deep and painful issues you are dealing with so I again thank you for all the help and support you have all given so tirelessly. God Bless you all.

PS...MM and FH...I see the work you are doing with Mr. and Mrs. Vash and I just wanted to add that I so adnire how you have both refocused that thread to the real issues and have done so with so much Christian faith and love. Keep up that good work as you both always do. None of you ever really know how much we are truly blessed to have you here.

With faith, hope and christian love...thank you again.

Jilly, let me begin by reiterating my refrain of "patience." Now that you and your husband have decided to kick your addictions there are a couple of things that you both need to keep always in the forefront of your minds each day.

1. Begin each day with prayer for God's help, strength and comfort as you seek to conform your lives to one that brings Him honor. God knows how hard things can be, and He will help as only He can.

2. Be patient. This is a lifelong change you are working toward, just like your efforts to recover your marriage. This is NOT just about today, this week, this month....it's about "for the rest of your lives." So remind yourselves each day that Patience is a major prescription that will help accomplish your objectives, especially on days that seem tough or when you face temptations (which you will).

3. Don't forget that Satan wants you to fail. He LOVES addictions because they lead people AWAY from God, not toward God. Be aware of his efforts, and include prayers for protection from his efforts to come between you and God.


If you'd like, I will also type up a pamphlet that I have about dealing with addictions from a biblical perspective. It might take me a little while to type it in (I'm not a very fast typist), but if you'd like to have it to possibly be another source of help I will do it and email it to you.

Lastly, thanks for the clarification. It helps in providing specific things to pray for.

God bless.

FH,

Yes...you see it my issue with patience. It is an area I am truly struggling with. My H jokes with me that I am always rush, rush, rush. Ironically teaching kids requires endless patience and I seem to be able to more patient with others than I am with myself.

Sometimes I think I am hardwired in fast forward mode. A little side story to inject a bit of humor in here since most of what I am dealing with is on the serious side and I think God would say it is okay to laugh even at ourselves.

When I was pregnant with my daughter I started early labor at 31 weeks. (yep...couldn't even be patient there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) so I was put on medication to stop the contractions and bed rest. The med they put you on is called terbutaline which is actually an asthma med but it also works to stop contractions. Anyway this med for whatever reason to me felt like speed. So they put me on a med that made me feel like I was on speed and then told me to stay in bed. I did what I was told but it wasn't easy as I always felt like I should be doing something other than lying around do nothing. Okay I did cheat a little bit in the last 2 weeks before I delivered because everyday I would sneak over to In and Out Burger and get myself a hamburger. I craved those hamburgers like nobody's business. I re wrapped the garbage in another bag and snuck them out to the outside garbage can because my H was at work when I would sneak over there and he would have been mad if he knew I was doing it. (H knows now and thinks it is so funny that I did that...even the hiding the evidence...wrappers) but then I thought he would be mad. I justified it as I had to eat and would have had to get up to eat anyway and since I was going through the drive thru that I was sitting down and not up and about...LOLOLOLOL.

Okay fast fwd. to 37 weeks.I stop taking the medication. 12 hours later my water breaks at about 4 am when I am in bed. I wake H and tell him. He says great but that it'll be a long while til real labor gets going. Me thinking he is the expert because he has been through a delivery with his son defer to his expertise. I decide to sit on my little shower stool and take a hot shower since after water broke I felt pretty much like I needed a good shower. I'm thinking yeah plenty of time to shower, dress, and do full hair and make up.

Big joke on me about the full hair and make-up...ummm the only think I felt like doing after staying in the shower for like half an hour was go to the bathroom. I know gross but that what I felt like...like I kept having to go to the bathroom...ummm didn't realize these were contractions and that what I was doing was pushing. So my H is making coffee and showering and thinking he is going to eat breakfast as I might as well do as much of the laboring at home as possible. He is thinking hours to go. His thinking...ummm let's just say dead wrong. Pretty soon he comes to check to see what I am doing...he thinks I am getting ready. He sees me in the bathroom and that I am not able to get dressed because I can't seem to stop having to go to the bathroom. I am sort of moaning and grunting and I think it was about at this point that he realizes that maybe things are progressing at a different rate then he thought. He calls his mom to come NOW to watch our son. By the time she gets there he is trying to get me dressed. I can only get one thing at a time on between the contractions and his mom can hear me moaning and said you guys really need to go. As I come down the hall no make up wet hair etc. I have to stop midway and squat down...she says go NOW. We get in the car and now my H is begging me to stop pushing which I can't control. My body was having this baby not my mind so I didn't feel in control of anything. We left for the hospital (about a 5 minute drive) running lights etc. with my H coaching me to breathe and stop pushing. I gave him a look like if you say that one more time I am gonna jump out of this moving car and deliver this baby on the side of the road buddy.

We get to the ER and since we fortunately had preregistered we didn't have to do a lot of paperwork. I ask if my H can finalize the paperwork and can I use the bathroom in the ER/check in area. When I don't come out right away they hear me in there. Yep...I am in there pushing on the potty. I can't help it I don't know what I am doing. I haven't had a baby before and don't know what is happening. I am just thinking that if they tell me that I am dilated to a 2 or something that my birth plan is going to go out the window because I am no way going to make it hours like this with no epidural or anything. (Yeah my birthplan included no unnecessary interventions...IV's etc.) So when they get me out of the bathroom and into the wheelchair to go in the elevator up to labor and delivery floor I am panting and pushing in the chair. The nurse is like try to relax and stop pushing.

We get to the floor and they take me in a room and tell me to undress and get on the scale. I try to undress and get my pants off and then squat on the floor and start pushing. The labor nurse then says very strongly get her undressed and get her on the table. They want to check my progress. I am thinking in my head please don't say I am only dilated a little bit because I don't know if I can take this much longer. The nurse says you are ready to go. I asked her what she means and she says you are fully effaced and dilated to 10. Then there is a flurry of people in and out. Everything feels like it is from a movie and it isn't really happening to me because it is all going so fast.

They call my doctor but then say they are bringing up the resident because they don't think my doctor will get there in time. I am like huh? What do you mean my doctor isn't going to get here on time but then I am in the delivery room arguing with the nurse about no IV and then in comes Doogie Howser...no lie the resident looked like he was about 12 and I was thinking this guy is gonna deliver my baby but then I guess at that point I didn't care because all I wanted to do was push.

The nurse says don't push yet. They get me all situated and Doogie is down there and the nurses etc. The nurse says okay you can start pushing now. Counting 10 pushing. My H on the second push cycle says...baby can you wait a minute I have to go to the bathroom. I say sure you can go but I can't guarantee this baby will still be in me when you get back. My H comes back and when he does in walks my regular OB doctor and just like you see in the movies the nurses are suiting him up like they do. He is a great doctor...super calm and very reassuring. The nurse tells him I am refusing an IV and he tells her to back off...an IV and pitocin aren't in her birthplan. Nurse is pissy and says she will have to deliver the placenta after with no help...doctor says she knows this already. He asks me if maybe I want an IV just fluids no pitocin because I might be weak after the delivery. No no no I don't want any interventions. He doesn't pester says okay. Doogie asks me if I mind if he stays for the birth. I say fine with me at this point they could have brought the president of the US in and I would have said okay I only want to push.

So I am pushing and not very many times maybe 4-5 pushing cycles and bam...baby girl is born into this world at 6:30 am. Total labor and delivery time on a first baby 2 and a half hours. The doctor tells me this is NOT common especially delivery of a first baby. He said we were lucky that we got there when we did because he has actually delivered in the parking lot when people have waited too long.

After she is born I get to hold her for only a couple of minutes before they whisk her away for all the things they do after a baby is born. H goes with baby...this is our plan... never lose contact with baby after birth. My parents and in laws arrive to find that their granddaughter is here already. They do the other stuff they have to do before I can be moved to recovery room. One is that you have to get up and go to the bathroom. So I do and then they are getting ready to wheel me over to my room. For some reason we were stopped in the corridor. It is a long corridor and I can see my stepmom way down at the other end walking toward me. I can hear her saying something but I can't really make it out. I feel funny...lightheaded but I am sitting down so it doesn't occur to me that I am going to faint. This is what my stepmom was saying as she is coming down the corridor...to the nurses...something is wrong with her. Next thing I remember is an awful smell and the nurse saying there she is she's back and then realizing that I had fainted in the wheelchair. This was why my doctor had wanted me to have IV fluids he later tells me. He says same thing happened to his own stubborn wife with the same fainting results.

Anyway my point to this funny (well at least I think it is pretty funny) story is that when delivering my daughter I wasn't exactly patient now was I? Yeah it was out of my control how fast it did happen but just that hurry up and rush may be my hardwire. I don't know. I am working to slow down. Not easy for me FH and you have so got my number on that.

I guess you also won't be too surprised to know that my daughter is kind of a rush rush rusher too. Is it nature...nurture? Both? I am trying to slow down. I am trying to trace back where the need to rush came from. Haven't figured it out yet.

I will follow the steps you listed. They make sense to me. You are right...this is a lifelong change so I do need to address it that way if I really want true success with it. I didn't get into this mess quickly and I am not going to get out of quickly either. I have to accept the one day at time thing and stop rushing to the finish line. God will get me there if I just stay with Him on the path. He knows what I need to do. He shows me when I am quiet..when I listen.

If you have a scanner and can scan that paper and then send it email okay but don't retype it. That is too much for you to do. There is a Christian book on recovery at the bookstore that I am going to get. I can't remember the name of it now but will post it when I get the book.

Thanks for your nonjudgmental support. It means a lot to me. I am starting to understand that addiction isn't really about the thing that you are addicted to anyway...it is about us and the reasons behind why we are doing whatever it is that we are addicted to. God has helped me strip away my prideful thinking regarding this meaning that I now see all addiction the same. My addiction is no better or worse than someone addicted to heroin or meth. I can no longer justify what I was doing just because it was a "prescription" med because at the core of the issue it is the same thing. I am working on eliminating the self shame about it and focus only on the shame of the behavior. In other words love self but not those actions...doesn't make me a horrible person. Just one with issues. Issues that when given over to God can be dealt with.

I truly believe that if I don't apply patience to this struggle I will not be successful so thank you for reminding me again to be patient with myself. Funny...I know God is patient so why if I am trying to be more like Him would I not allow myself the gift of patience. Hmmmm?

And yes...ugghhhhhhhh Satan...I see what he is doing and how he is working. I know he wants me to fail and I know he loves addiction just as you said because it keeps people away from God. So to Satan I say...get thee behind me evil one. You are no match for God.

Thanks for praying for us. I do believe that prayer from others helps as well as our own praying helps.

Keep the faith.

I know pain meds can be a terribly strong addiction. God will be able to communicate much more clearly with you when you are free of them, and He will continue to help you. You will find that in giving this up, you will have gained so much more.

Believe it or not, I can actually give a pretty short answer to the alcohol thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, the Bible seldom makes an outright distintion between wine and grape juice; both are referred to as wine in most cases. You can usually tell by the context which one is meant.

Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, who received his wisdom directly from God as a special gift, had a lot to say about wine.

Two examples:



This is good advice on how to have a pure body and strong mind, and be able to serve Christ better. It is not a ceremonial law meant only for Jews. Even Noah got in trouble when he slipped too much at the lip.

So context remains the best way to tell if the wine mentioned in a particular passage is fermented or unfermented. Surely when Jesus turned the water into wine at the wedding feast, He was not contradicting the wisdom He had already given to Solomon, and creating alcohol that would numb the minds of the people there.

But those who drink should not be judged, ostracized, or treated differently than any other sinner. In God's eyes, it is no worse to drink alcohol than to gossip or cherish pride. Jesus wants to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness, not just from socially unacceptable flaws.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Neak <----- sometimes foolishly proud, but always speedily cut down to size

Neak, I tend to agree that the best way to understand a passage is by looking at the whole context in which a passage occurs. Suffice it to say, that it seems patently obvious that Jesus changed the water into wine, not grape juice. In fact, the comment was made to him that most people serve the best wine first and then later bring out the less good wine whereas the wine Jesus provide was the best. These wedding-goers new the difference between wine and grape juice.

But the real point is NOT that Jesus made wine from water, it was the miracle of the changing of the water, regardless of the "end product," grape juice or wine. Either one is substantially different from water to be the miracle that showed Jesus' power over the "natural world."

FH,
I would agree-disagree-agree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree that most weddings at the time probably served fermented wine. After all, Jesus came at a time when His people were far from Him, and many could hardly be distinguished from those in the world around them.

I disagree, in that the context of the OT, which was the entire Scripture provided up to that point, made it very clear that God did not approve of the use of alcoholic wine. Leviticus 12:9 - Aaron, as the high priest, and his sons were not to use wine or strong drink. Numbers 28:7 - "Strong wine" was to be poured out before the Lord as an offering, but nothing indicates it should be drunk. Deuteronomy 29:6 - During the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, the Israelites had not eaten bread, or drunk wine or strong drink, "that you might know that I am the Lord your God". Judges 13:4 - The angel told Samson's mother not to drink any wine or strong drink while she was pregnant with him. Proverbs 21:17 - If you love pleasure, wine, and oil, you will not be rich. Proverbs 23:20 - Do not be a winebibber. Proverbs 31:1-7 - Kings and princes should not drink, or they might forget the law and pervert judgment. (But medicinal usage in some cases may be advised.) Isaiah 5:20-24 - Woe to those who call darkness light, or who are "mighty to drink wine", they will be like dust because they have cast aside God's law. Isaiah 28:7 - Prophets and priests have stumbled because of strong drink, making mistakes in vision and in judgment. Isaiah 65:8 - A blessing is found in new wine (in the cluster).

I only found one verse, Deuteronomy 14:26 that seemed to speak favorably of specifically alcoholic wine.

The New Testament speaks of drinking, also.

Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist was not to drink any wine or strong drink. Ephesians 5:18 - Do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit. 1 Timothy 3:1-8 - A bishop or deacon in the church must not be a man given to wine. Titus 2:3 and 1 Peter 4:3 only speak against the excessive use of wine.

But in the face of many direct prohibitions, I think it is more likely that Jesus made grape juice rather than sour wine. Of course the guests knew the difference between fermented and unfermented, but what He made was far superior to any beverage any of them had ever tasted in their lives.

Which brings us back to the agree part again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am in 100% agreement that the main point of the story of the wedding feast was the miracle that was worked, the creative power that turned water into an amazing and refreshing beverage, such as none had previously experienced. And it turned the focus on Jesus and the beginning of His work.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one (which would doubtless be true of other subjects as well), but I certainly enjoy discussing it (them) with you.

God bless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey all,

I like this song we sing in church. Just thought I'd share the lyrics. It is by Glenn Packiam

For Your Name

Jesus Your name is far above all others
Jesus Your name be praised
No other name is worthy of all honor
Jesus Your name be praised

For Your name for Your glory
For the lamb who once was slain
For the joy that's set before me
I will give my life away
For Your name

Kingdoms will fall and all will fade away
Jesus Your name is great
We become small so all the earth will see You
Jesus Your name is great

For Your name for Your glory
For the lamb who once was slain
For the joy that's set before me
I will give my life away
For Your name

For the glory of Your name
I will give my life away
For the glory of Your name
I will give my life away
For the glory of Your name
I will give my life away

For Your name for Your glory
For the lamb who once was slain
For the joy that's set before me
I will give my life away
For Your name


God Bless

FH,

An update...I am taking the next step in my recovery process (for all my issues) by setting up IC for myself. My H also asked me to set up IC for him as well. Both of us will be seeing people from our church. My IC also happens to be the pastor's wife.She has her counseling license. When I called to set up my appt. she asked the issues that I was wanting to work on and I was honest. I told her this. We (my H and I) are struggling with prescription med. addiction and recovery. We are struggling to survive infidelity to which she asked who was unfaithful. I said he was BUT that we BOTH were unfaithful in our first marriages (me taking accountability for my own sin) and the other issues surrounding my adoption, our blended family etc.

I wasn't sure what we should do as far as whether my H and I should see her together, each separately, etc. She suggested that I see her and that my H see another male counselor from the church. The counselor my H will see basically does crisis counseling and is sort of like a triage center. He meets with you a couple of times and then helps you find appropriate help whatever that is for your core issues. My H originally wanted us to see him together(which they said would be fine...he said he wanted me to go because he felt really scared to go.) but as he gets stronger he says he thinks he might actually want to go by himself. After we both do some IC then it will be decided who and if we also need to do MC. My guess is that we probably will have to do at least some MC. My first appt. is tomorrow. I am glad that I waited and let God guide my choice as to who I will see for IC because my first choice was not this counselor but one that specializes in adoption. When I tried to get into to see the other counselor she was so booked that she couldn't see me. I think this was God telling me NO not the right person for right now. When I turn things over to God and I listen He does answer. I am learning that He doesn't always answer with what I want or what I think He will. Sometimes God says yes, sometimes He says wait, and sometimes He says NO. I am learning to embrace this...the yes and no are easier than the wait. Since you see my issues with patience you understand why this is harder for me. I know this is God's way of teaching me patience. I see this.

We have also decided to become members of our church and will take some classes through the church and are moving toward the next step of joining a small group within the church. We will meet with the pastor to decide what type of small group we will join. My H wants us to join a small couples group. I think this is probably good for us to join a group together as a couple. We have been attending church regularly but know we need to take the next step to become more involved in the church community. Fellowship with other believers...especially with those who are struggling with some of the same issues as us. The one thing I really like about our church is its mission statement which is "Meeting people where they are and loving them to where Christ wants them to be." Pretty good mission I think. Also the church has lots and lots of support groups and there is a very diverse group of members. Lots of people whose M's are in shambles, lots of people struggling with addictions etc. We have started our kids in the children/youth groups.

My H asked me several weeks ago (the sermon was about the word is the map) if he needed to read the Bible more. He reads his devotional every day and we do some studying together but he was asking did he have to read more on his own. I said NO you don't have to do anything. It is a choice. I told him I read more to know more. I took from that sermon that if you don't read the word then it will be more difficult for you to hear God speaking to you and you will have a harder time since God speaks to us through his word. He asked me to read more often with him so I have been with the NIV study bible which has been a great resource for me in helping to share with my H because it explains a lot of things and how they are relevant to us.

Okay now for a question about forgiveness. I was reading the thread about God and forgiveness of the unrepentant. I thought about posting...but I didn't. I thought about how the poster was saying that her H was now living with the OW and isn't showing any remorse etc. I thought about posting and saying that it may be many years before that R hits serious problems...could be 11 years like me. I doubt any M that begins as an affair is going to trouble free. The only reason our M even has any chance of recovery at all is because we have surrendered our lives to God. But the poster states she is a non-believer. I didn't post because I know that my posting could hurt her worse. I am clearly aware of how much my very presence here is a trigger for those who are trying so hard and then even despite their best efforts with Plans A, B, and even D that it isn't very pretty to think about someone like me here trying to save my own M...I get it I really do. So I don't post there. I don't know if that is what is best or not. I don't know what God's plan is for me at MB. Right now I think it is to learn. Any insight here?

Also on that thread in one of your posts you talked about your own situation and forgiveness of your OM. I wanted you to know that your honesty about that was very helpful to me as I am still struggling with forgiving the OW. Here is where I am with it. Prior to D-day I confronted her once by phone about the texting and cell phoning and how I felt that her "friendship" with my H was destroying our M. She was ever so apologetic to me and sympathetic saying she could understand how I felt and that she would feel the same way...blah blah blah...then she kept having an A with my H so obviously she wasn't really sorry or didn't care that she was destroying our M. Then on D-day when I caught them together she again stated how sorry she was and I had every right to hate her blah blah blah... then she kept continuing my H by their stinking secret email accounts. So again I knew her saying sorry was not about being truly sorry only sorry that she got caught and maybe sorry for herself because now that it was exposed that she was terrified she was going to lose my H which she did. Then all the secrets that she held over my H's head about the drugs, the money he owed her etc. Her ace cards...the ones she thought she was going to be able to use to keep her A with my H going. Here is where I am really struggling because of my own A with my H and the forgiveness that God has given me and the forgiveness that my H's XW has given me.

Maybe only after I became the BS did I truly understand how deeply my actions had hurt another. When I sincerely apologized again to her after becoming the BS and was honest with her...my R with her changed. Even though I had said I was sorry to her before this I didn't have the depth of understanding of the BS so even though in fact I had been sorry before I wasn't expressing the kind of real remorse I felt after becoming the BS. I have asked her again and again how she is so able to forgive me and talked with her about my own struggle to forgive the OW. She says I can't compare the two. It is hard for me not to since I don't see the OW sin of A any better or worse than my own A. My H's XW says there is a difference...she said "Jilly, you are really sorry. I never confronted you and asked you to leave my H alone. I never called you and said you are destroying my M. You did both of these things and she lied to you and continued the A." She claims that in part that her forgiveness isn't as hard as mine because she didn't want to recover her M. She wanted a divorce and not just because of the A. She said she wanted a divorce before that happened. She tells me to stop taking on what isn't mine. She says she had a choice to try to recover her M and she chose not to. That that choice isn't about me or the A. I still feel shame and guilt for my actions. It doesn't matter to me that maybe she did already want a divorce from my H. She is a good person and she didn't deserve the A. Maybe she has a different perspective because she too has also been the OW. She too had an A that broke up a 17 year M and had an OC with her OM. They aren't together anymore but she wasn't M when she had her A. Her A was with someone that was M but she wasn't M at the time. So I guess she too has the perspective of being the victim and the perpetrator. I don't know.

My problem is that I feel like I should forgive the OW as I have been forgiven by God and by the XW. I guess partly my problem with forgiveness for her is that I don't think she really gets it at all. She doesn't have the perspective of being a BS. Maybe the only way for OP's to really get it is to become a BS. I don't know. This goes into Jesus' forgiveness and saying "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." I am not saying that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong because I don't think she is that stupid that she can't at least grasp the concept that A's are wrong. Maybe part of my inability to forgive stems from knowing that she didn't just do this with my H and me but also with another R with her good friend and the father of her friend's child. I think a part of me still sees her as a predator...someone who will take whatever they want from whoever they want.

But I have been able to forgive my H. He isn't blameless in this. He chose to have the A with her. I can forgive him because I love him but also because I see genuine remorse and he has asked for my forgiveness many times. He has done the things that he needs to to help me rebuild my trust in him and he accepts there will never be blind trust again. He is accountable to me... he shows total transparency. He has given me all the passwords for his computer et.all. It is much easier to forgive someone who is repentant. But I know that Jesus says that of course it is easier to love your friends and much harder to love and forgive your enemies. So I still struggle with forgiving her. I see her as a lost soul...really lost and unable to make good choices. I don't hate her but I do resent her and I certainly do not trust her at all. I think if my H's boundary toward her wasn't iron clad she would be happy to rekindle her A with him.

As you know my H has befriended her STBXH and although I admire this and think that this is what God wants it is still hard for me. I know that her STBXH is a victim and my H's friendship with him is honorable. He is trying to make amends to him for his actions. I think partly this R for this and the incident I spoke of earlier with my H and the STBXH that I waver about the impact that friendship has on our M. My H seems very torn. On the one hand he feels like he owes a lot to this man. On the other hand he sees how this R too affects our M. I think even though the STBXH is a victim... he has a lot of his own issues and inadvertently even though he is a victim that this R is still a trigger for me. It is at least on some level a reminder of the A. I try hard to separate the two. Hassle...and her STBXH. In a roundabout way it still keeps her in our life to some degree but that isn't the fault of her STBX. I am hoping to sort some of this out in IC.

I was pretty okay with my H's friendship with him until the incident but after that happened it triggered a lot of fear in me...I do realize that the STBXH's SA has little to really do with sex and is an addition just like any other addiction and since I myself am struggling with an addiction although it is a different kind of addiction still an addiction and at least on some level all addictions are really about medicating...trying to medicate the emotions we don't want to feel.

So I keep asking myself what would Jesus do? What does He want me to do? As a christian who sins are covered by His blood what are my obligations as a christian in terms of forgiveness of others. I do want to forgive the OW because I feel like that is what Jesus wants me to do. When I discussed this with LA she expressed that I am giving the FOW too much rent in my mind. Because even when I try to think about forgiving her it still means I am thinking about her and I do still have angry and resentful feelings toward her. Maybe and I don't know the answer to this...but maybe for right now this is too unhealthy of an area for me even to attempt. Maybe for now I can just put the idea of forgiving her in a box of things I eventually I would like to get to but for now just let it be...stop trying to forgive her right now. Maybe right now it isn't my job to forgive her. Since I am NOT God I don't have the same ability to forgive. I am human and flawed doesn't make me a horrible person because I'm just not there yet. I am trying to work on my R with Christ and with my H. Maybe that is enough on my plate for now. Maybe this is just another lesson God is giving me about patience...like I can't just hurry up and forgive her. It isn't working...I am not able to hurry up and forgive her...I just can't. I will just keep praying about it and continue to listen to God's voice. I know He sees my heart...and that I am trying so so hard to be a better person...to live with Him as the director of my life. I choose to believe that He always knows best and so it is my job to quiet myself and listen to what He really wants me to do.

Sorry for this long post..just working through some issues. Maybe thinking about this today was something I needed to do before I meet with my IC tomorrow. Anyway thanks for always listening. And another thing too... see I know that you have said just as MM that because I am with God now that that is the reason that you feel compelled by God to help me. Maybe a part of me sees how you and MM and LA and others who have tried to help me show me Christ through your actions and maybe that is why I feel like if you all willing to help me through Christ that I feel like I should help the OW in the same vein. But the OW isn't with God now so maybe that too makes a difference. I really really just don't know and I am trying to be radically honest about my feelings about all of this.

God Bless you all.

Jilly, I hear your mental stuggle with this, so please don't be too surprised when I say that I am glad for your struggle. That is because in facing and examining "difficult" issues we grow in our knowledge of Christ. Understand that ONLY God is "all knowing" and, as such, God does NOT mind questions. He is ready to provide the answers, but sometimes as you previously noted, HIS timeframe doesn't seem "quick enough" to us. I think the reason is the same as for many things, we learn better and make the lessons learned a part of our lives when WE have to work through it instead of having the "answer" handed to us. Something obtained for "free" is often not valued as highly as something someone acquires through hard work.

So let me give you something to think about and respond to.

You mentioned a couple of things that are pertinent to this idea regarding forgiveness, so let's look at them.




Good questions.




You should. On what basis HAS God forgiven you, feelings....or something else? Would God have forgiven you on ANY other basis?




Is it Jesus' desire that all should come to a saving faith and forgiveness of sin in Him? Will everyone so respond? If it IS God who draws men/women to Him to hear, understand and accept the Gospel, is it Jesus' desire that all would be drawn by God? Do you think it was Jesus' prayer that God "give them over to a hardened heart" or that they might see the magnitude of what they had done and be convicted and repentant?

Would any of them RECEIVE forgiveness of sin without turning their lives over to Christ? And who IS the "Judge" who looks into the hearts of people and knows who is, and who is not, His?



I don't know about "insight," but it's always a good policy to engage brain before tongue (or typing fingers).




Policy of Joint Agreement: If there is NOT enthusiastic agreement by both husband and wife, the "thing" does NOT get done.

Another way to look at is there ARE consequences to all sin and to all choices. NO amount of "restitution" or "guilt driven acts to pay some measure of restitution" is enough. Some debts are TOO big to be "paid back." THAT is the message of the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. THAT is why forgiveness by God is so important. That is why we don't withhold forgiving a fellow "servant" of the same "Master" we serve.

So let's look at a practical answer: NO Contact for life MEANS NO Contact.

YOUR marriage, and your relationship with God is primary and paramount. Place the others into God's hands to work in THEIR lives.

God bless.

I could not agree more. There will be plenty of time for reconciliation and restoration in heaven, but here on earth your husband and the STBX are not going to be able to help each other with their recoveries.

While it may have been good that they spoke and your husband had a chance to apologize for his sin against this man, continued contact will only slow (or even stop) their healing.

An OP can never pay back, or make up for what they did. The most merciful thing they can do is apologize, and back away for the rest of their lives, this side of eternity.

Do just as FH says. Pray for them, but leave them in God's hands.

What I told my H is that, because of all the wonderful and deeper experiences he was having spiritually, that he would surely be tempted at some point to contact the OW just to share this, and try and "witness" to her.

But that he must not do it, because with his actions, he forever disqualified himself as a fit vessel to share the gospel with her, and God was going to have to use someone else, if it would be done at all.

Your husband has made his amends, now he needs to cut all ties that still connect him with any memory of his affair.

FH,

Sorry for the delay in my response. Thanks for your post.
I really get this. And yes I think it is true when we work hard for something it is more meaningful than when it is just handed to us.


I think God has forgiven me because I was remorseful and repentant and I ASKED. Hmmmm...are you suggesting maybe that none of this has occurred really between myself and the FOW so perhaps this is why there is a struggle here?

Yes it is. But we do have to come to Him...correct?

No I don't think Jesus wants to turn them over hard hearted. Yes, if we don't realize the magnitude of what we have done then we cannot marvel in the truth of the magnitude of what HE has done for us. So if we are unrepentant we learn nothing... we don't change because if we don't see that we have done wrong then what is there to change?

No, no one receives that unconditional forgiveness without surrendering to Him. God is the judge not me so I cannot really ever know what is in the heart of anyone except myself. In forgiving my H I see repentance, remorsefullness, guilt, shame, and surrendering of his life to God..so I see a point here. My H has worked to show me he really wants forgiveness and is willing to take whatever steps necessary to regain trust...not blind trust but more trust. He starts IC next week and I see that as a huge step for him and for us in our recovery process.

As far as forgiving the FOW she hasn't shown repentance or remorsefullness her remorsefullness IMHO is she is sorry she got caught not that she is sorry that it happened. However what would Jesus want me to do? I can forgive her for myself. I don't have to call her up and say, "Hey, I forgive you." I have no insight into what she is thinking and it isn't my responsibility to fix her. I have no idea if she ever thinks about what she did to our family. It doesn't really matter what she thinks because she isn't asking me to forgive her anyway. It is not my job to make her feel better about what happened. I talked to my IC about this...my struggle with forgiving her. She said you can or not forgive her up to me. But I am under no obligation to let her know either way. It isn't my job to make her feel better. It is my job to get myself healthy and for ME to feel better through hard work on self and with H. No one is going to hand us the recovery of our M or the recovery of our addictions. We are forgiven because we submitted to Christ but that doesn't supersede the work we have to do go get better.

We are learning how to do this. We don't fight about stuff the way we used to. We show a lot more genuine caring and respect for each other's feelings. This has helped us with honesty and openness.

In fact I was able to confront my H about a little white lie (nothing related to any of this) without judging him and say to him...H we don't need to do this any longer. Tell each other little white lies about anything anymore. We are safe to tell each other the truth. We talked about it and realized that the little lies just make the big one all the easier and since we are working on our R with God that this isn't what God wants for us...to lie to each other about anything even something little. I told him the truth about how it made me feel...I want to trust you but if you lie to me even about something small it works against the progress we have made to rebuild trust. It didn't cause a fight. It didn't cause a bunch of hurt feelings because I really believe when we allow God to lead our actions and our words we are able to get to the point in the same way He would want us to.

We have been studying the Bible more together. We pray more and fight less. We turn to God and each other for support and we truly know that the only way this M is going to survive is with God at the helm.

I see this...the consequences to sin. I agree there is no amount of restitution either. God has forgiven him. He cannot fix the STBXH. I think my H was doing the right thing in saying he was sorry but I think guilt has made him feel an obligation of friendship. I pray about this and I listen to God about this. I see how God is working this out. Because my boundary with this is firm...and my H respects my boundary toward STBXH it is putting a conflict of interest here. I don't need to say H you can't be his friend because I trust God and I see how God is working this out. The STBXH has his own addictions and issues. Some of his issues cross my H's own boundaries and so ultimately I see this friendship reducing to a respectful acknowledgement that H is truly sorry for what he did but this friendship just isn't truly healthy for any of us.

Yes, unfortunately my H still works with her. He has put up extremely strong boundaries and will be taking a job at a different site next school year. So he does still have contact with her. It isn't the best case scenario I know it is just the way it is right now. I prayed very hard about this and both my H and I struggled with how to deal with this. I feel like God has directed my H exactly how to handle this and I have been told by an outside source that I trust that my H has in fact shown a boundary so clear that NO one is mistaken where his loyalty lies. Has the FOW tried to overstep this boundary...yes a couple of times. I posted about this awhile back with the $$$ thing etc. My H has held fast in his boundary and God is his shield.Sorry to say but the FOW doesn't stand a chance against God when it comes to my H. My faith in God is so strong now. I know that God will work all of this out and that He will lead us where we need to go.

Loud and clear FH...loud and clear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So to summarize where I am...I am leaving that families problems to them and pray that God will help them. I choose to forgive her in the sense that I will not let this resentment toward her negatively affect our recovery. I choose to believe that God has a plan for our life and it is our job to listen and obey him. I choose to believe that as my H works through his own issues in IC God's influence will be felt here because I strongly believe that his IC is going to tell him that the friendship isn't healthy for our recovery. I choose to believe God worked through me to show me who we should go to for IC and that the IC's we have chosen are a part of the body of Christ and that those that are with God...really with him...will lead others to follow and obey Him. I see that going to church has been absolutely and totally healing. I see our faith as the glue that will recover our M. I see God's forgiveness as the foundation for my seeking help with my addiction and recovery. And I see the MB people who have helped me as instruments of God...speaking truth and blessing me with the gift of a fellowship of faith.

Am I all fixed? Nope...patience and hard work and the knowledge that one day...I will be in a place where I will be all fixed but until that day I will have to keep working and have patience...and faith.

FH,

We went to church last night. I didn't want to go. I have been feeling angry the last week or maybe resentful. These feelings are directed toward my H. I haven't really felt those feelings toward him since D-day. I think perhaps this is also a phase in the recovery process? Does this happen...maybe the first stage is fear and relief that your spouse isn't going to leave you for the OP? Then after some time passes you allow yourself to feel anger toward your spouse...the anger that was previously directed rationally or not at the OP.

Maybe this is what people mean when they say the BS is at risk for an affair. I know I will not have an affair. Affairs are vile. Yes, I include myself in that vile group too...so it's not like I am black kettling. It is just when you wind up on the other side of it... the BS side then you see the vile and ugly truth about affairs. I think I am also mad and disappointed in myself as well.

So some of the anger is about my H's recent A... and some is about my own vile actions.

In IC my therapist asked me who was my judge? This was about my struggle with forgiving Hassle (the FOW) and the IC asked me this...who is your judge? What came out in therapy was that somehow I had linked my own forgiveness with the idea that Jesus would forgive Hassle so if I wanted to be like Jesus so should I. Wrong... I am not Jesus. I am not able to forgive with the same ability that he is. She asked me if I was going to impose a life sentence on myself. How long did I think I needed to be punished for my own sins...my A? Was I ready to accept Jesus' death for our sins... all of our sins even mine? I cried because I felt like I had accepted Jesus... that I have been developing a R with him each day.

Once again black and white thinking. Not healthy thinking...like I am learning in my faith and just because I was still judging Hassle, myself, my H etc. doesn't mean that I don't love Jesus...it is just another step of faith. I see where I need to trust Him more and stop this unhealthy behavior of judging that which isn't mine to judge.

My IC told me the story of David and Bathsheba... I had heard it before but I was missing some of the important details of this story. Anyway she told it to me and about how Nathan came and told David that God wasn't pleased with his behavior at all. When David finally repented for his multitude of sins, he still had consequences. His child died. David accepted the consequences but also that God still loved him always had... even when he was committing grave sins against God and man. This was when my IC asked me if I was ready to lift the self imposed life sentence and accept Jesus again. She prayed with me and I did. I felt a tremendous sense of relief.

What I think might be happening is I think Satan is really working on me. He is mad as h*** that he can't have me or my H and so he is going to work any angle he can... to drive a wedge in my marriage, my addiction recovery, whatever way he can he is going to try.

I think he is working the anger angle right now and that he was tempting me and that is why I didn't want to go to church last night. When I got there (we went in separate cars as my H planned to leave right after the sermon to go watch the fights at his brother's house. I was invited to go but I didn't want to go. Like I said I was grouchy and I didn't want to go anywhere.) and sat down with my H...in the front row where we always sit, he could tell that I was irritable and he kept asking me what was wrong and if I was okay.

I said I was fine... not really true but I wanted him to stop asking me so I said yes, I am fine, I am just grouchy. The second song started and that was it... I started crying. It is hard to stay angry in God's house. This I have come to see...no matter how much I don't feel like going to church I have to go anyway because I need what happens to me there. I need the relief that comes when I am there. I don't know exactly how to explain it...just that something breaks in me there...the anger, the sadness, the whatever it is that might be eating at me...

One of us cries every week just about. It is probably good we sit in the front because the people who see us breaking are the pastor, the band...etc. not everyone behind us. Well maybe the see it too... I guess it doesn't really matter who sees it. I am not quite sure why both my H and I break like this in church more than any other place. Maybe we really feel grace and mercy there more than anywhere else. Maybe for those 2 hours each week... it is a respite from the rest of it and it is the place where my guard drops and my heart is filled up with the love of the Lord.

When I started crying my H again started to ask me if I was okay, then he said no you are not okay. He was like just let it out... it's okay. I felt irritated with him because I just wanted him to let me be.

He went out to get me some tissue. I sat down and started getting my offering envelope ready... I knew what I was doing. I was trying to distract myself for a moment so that I could regain some composure. My H came back and said Jilly go pray with a prayer partner, you'll feel better. I know he was saying this with love and compassion, but I was annoyed at him for telling me what to do. So I finished my offering envelope and then I started crying again on the next song. I quit trying at that point to try to distract myself...and just let myself be. I felt the anger toward him fade.

After the sermon my H left before the end worship music. He asked me if I wanted to leave then too and I said no. I didn't want to leave. I needed the end worship music too because sometimes it is during the music that I feel closet to God. Also I didn't want to pull DD7 out of her kid's worship service early either...she loves going.

Anyway during the end music I started crying again. When it was over I sat for a few minutes trying to collect myself as people were leaving. The woman that had been sitting next to us asked me if I was okay and I said I had felt angry when I came in but it is hard to stay mad in God's house. We chatted briefly when one of the band members came down and knelt down where we were sitting. He listened as this woman told me how this church had saved her and her partner's lives. (I already knew they are recovering meth addicts because her son is in my H's class this year and they have a special love for my H because of the love and compassion he has shown their son. At one point the state had taken their kids away from them and they got them back a year ago when they got serious about their recovery which they are doing through our church. They are very open about their addiction and recovery.) We talked for a few minutes more and then she left and the guy from the band said to me...Jilly I see you guys front row every week. I see you are really burdened. He asked me if I wanted to share what was burdening me so much. Like I may have mentioned there are a lot of small groups in our church of many different kinds. They kind of have all the bases covered as far as the wide scope of issues the congregation is dealing with. This isn't a small church. There are about 1500 members and there are 3 different main services each week. The Saturday night alternative service we attend is probably the smallest but I don't know it is packed full every week too. We go early so we can a seat. Fortunately not many people want to sit in the front front row.

So I said yes I am burdened. I never really know what to tell people in the church when they ask. I finally told the pastor a few weeks ago when I prayed with him he asked me what I was struggling with and I just (okay read shame and fear here) said I am struggling. I didn't know what to say to him so I just said your wife (she is my IC) knows my issues. So he prayed with me and then I felt really bad for being so afraid to tell this man of God what I am struggling with that I wound up telling him at a later date.

The band guy said he didn't want to pry and asked me if he could just pray with me and I said yes. When we were done he asked if I would mind if he and his wife could pray for me and my H this week. I said that would be good. Awhile ago my friend (the one that first took me to this church and also a good friend of this band guy and his wife) had said that she thought this guy would be a good person for my H to get plugged in with since he had struggled with some addiction issues as well.

We are still taking baby steps in terms of getting plugged in more. Both of us are seeing IC's through the church. I think maybe that is the first step but probably we need to join a small group. I know we both feel like we need to plug in more yet there is a sense of fear and shame at least for me (and I would guess for my H as well) that causes hesitation. I know that getting more involved means open up and exposing ourselves more...and also leads to more accountability which is probably a healthy thing for us. I am working on this fear.

When my H came home from the fights I told him about praying with the band guy. His reaction was to tell me that this man had cheated on his wife. I knew this wasn't true. I know if it was my friend would have told this to me not to shame the guy but because she has tried to help us find people to connect with who we can relate to. I said Husband I am not going to have an affair so you can stop right there. H said okay...I felt jealous. I know this guy didn't have an A. I just felt threatened. I said again Husband I am not going to have an A and I am not going to leave you. In my own cloud of feelings sometimes I don't see how fearful my H is that I will leave him or have some sort of retaliation A. Neither is true...even though I am aware that I am risk for an A from things I have read here. I know I won't because I have committed my life to Jesus and I know that Jesus wants me to rebuild my M and that certainly wouldn't include having an A. I love my H and I want to be married to him. I know his fear is as real to him as my fear that he would leave me was to me. I don't discredit his feelings. I don't know how to reassure him more than I already am.

I think the honeymoon phase of our recovery is moving into the next phase and we have to continue our work. Just because I feel irritated with my H doesn't mean I have any feelings of wanting to leave the M. I don't. I am committed to us.

I have another question regarding tithe. I grew up paying tithe...every birthday money, allowance whatever money we got as kids we had to pay tithe on it. The pastor keeps bringing up tithe in church. I give as much as I can, more really, every week but our finances are not in that good of shape. I know the bible says to tithe. The pastor says over and over again that God will provide when you tithe. I know this is probably a trust issue for me but what do I do when I know that tithing 10% will mean that we won't be able to pay all our bills and still have enough for food and basic necessities. FH what do I do here... I want to do what Jesus wants me to do but I also want to feed my kids. What does Jesus want those in debt to do? Does he want us to give 10% if we don't have it... does he want us to give as much as we can until we can get to 10%? What do I do here?


On a positive note my H has ended contact with Mr.Hassle.

Jilly,

I just happened to see this as I was doing a drive-by, and didn't want you to think I forgot.

Being the super-organized person that I am (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), I lost all the research I had done for the next study, and didn't find out till I was ready to type it up. I started over, and am now nearly to the point I was before.

So I am still around, and will be back shortly.

Neak

Jilly - you made some mistakes 15 years ago, you have grown and would not repeat those mistakes, forgive yourself. Given your history and your loss, it must be very difficult for you now. Please don't blame yourself! I know I miss my father who died suddenly 8 years ago, every day, but the love lives on. Try to find support in that.
Enjoy your daughter.
J

Jilly, first my apology for not responding sooner. I have not been on MB in some time and only check in from time to time now to check on you and one or two others.

Before I get to your question let me say that it sounds as though you are in a good church and have a good caring suppport group there.

I want to talk to you a minute about patience. You already know that is one of your "short suits" and it is evident that you are still struggling (normal) with your own issues.

First, anger toward your husband is a normal part of recovery regardless of whether or not is it "right or wrong," "justified or unjustified." It IS part of the emotional recovery. So is your "beating yourself up" over your own past mistakes. Jilly, there is not one of us who don't have "past mistakes" we regret. If our own actions had anything to do with our being saved through what Jesus did on our behalf, then none of us would be able to "earn" "right standing" with God. What you are doing is now is learning the depth and truth of that simple fact.

With respect to that, the crying, the mental struggles, the issues you keep running through your mind, your own potential hormonally affected emotional highs and lows that are also a "normal" effect with many women, the emotional effects of "coming to grips" with being a BS, as well as your "former self," are all NORMAL parts of recovery AND the work of Holy Spirit in guiding you along the path of Sanctification. If you don't understand what Sanctification is, that would be a good thing to ask your Pastor or counselor.

Here is something I hope you will consider, especially in light of your "impatient," "Are we there yet?", disposition. "The Lord is my shepard, I sahll lack nothing. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me."

Jilly, God is taking you through the "valley." He is NOT expecting you to walk it alone or to even know the way. The "dark valleys" ARE scary, and God knows that. He gave us Psalm 23 (and many other passages) so that we will know that we DON'T walk alone, even when it seems as though we are alone. But HE leads, and we follow. We trust Him to know the path, to know how long the valley is, to know what WE need to see and confront as we KNOW that HE not only walks with us but HE carries the "biggest stick" and we don't have to carry one. COMFORT is what God is teaching you right now, Jilly. Comfort with God. Comfort with God being in control. Comfort with Jilly not being in control of everything. Comfort with your being a "new creation" who UNDERSTANDS sin against God and comfort with the TRUTH that Jesus actually DID "cover over" all of your sins, and the sins of ALL born again believers. It's NOT about "fairness," its about forgiveness. And sometimes being the "forgiven" is harder than being the "forgiver."

Now, on to your question.

I'm not going to get into a big debate about tithing. But I want you to think about a few things. First, all that we have IS the Lords. We are stewards of what he has entrusted to us. Tithing is an Old Testament requirement for the Jews, in part to teach them that very fact. What did God "withhold" from us? His Son? All that He is?

Does that mean that we give all our money to the church? Think about your own circumstances for guidance in what God is teaching YOU about financial giving. IF you gave a tithe that you could not afford and left yourself "enslaved" to debt, is that what God would want from you NOW? What about when you are "debt free?" Does God want you to tithe exclusively to your church, or to perhaps help others in need also?

The "idea" revolves around where we "place" money in our thinking. We ALL struggle with, or have struggled with, the "love of money." But God wants to teach us to be "content" in our own circumstances and not envious of others or guilt ridden because we are not "doing" what a "good Christian" should do. You have to be careful in this area of "doing" as a "measure" of your standing with God. God has no need of your money. God wants you to be a steward of what He has entrusted to you, be it a lot or a little. YOU have taken yourself into "debt bondage," as did I and many many others. It stems from the "I deserve it" and "I want it now" mentality, rather than from being content with what God has given us. Guess what, most of us "got there" before we became believers, and now we deal with THOSE consequences. And one of those is God's direction to "pay back" what WE owe to others and THAT is a huge "Christian witness" in itself.

How much "giving" is "important" to God? How important is your heart and your honoring God? How important was it for Jesus Himself to tithe? That He did, I have no doubt, but just how much "material wealth" did Jesus have? It is not the "amount," Jilly, it is the heart. Think about the "widow's mite." It was not the amount, it was the heart.

Finally, be careful about the idea that God WILL provide you with more money just because someone DOES something. God CAN do so, but God is NOT "beholden" to us because we "do" something. Consider the parable of the money the "master" entrusted to some servants. Some a greater amount and some a lesser amount. The "rewards" and "judgment" came after the master returned, not while the servants were "on their own." The "rewards" God promises us are in heaven, and are based in our heart and the "motive" for what we did. Becoming more "Christ-like" in our lives is what the Sanctification journey is all about, not what we do in anticipation of God "Having To" give us anything in return.

God bless.

P.S. When did God become a "Tax Collector" interested in only how much money he gets and not concerned about you and your family, and uses that to decide how he will "bless" you?

Jan,

Thanks... forgiveness of self is a hard concept for me but I am working on it. I am sorry to hear about your dad. The loss of a parent is something I don't any of us is ever really ready for. The healing takes a lot of time. My kids are a true sense of joy in my life.

Thanks again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />