Jilly, ask away, and I'll do my best to answer.

Neak,

Okay some of these are fairly superficial and come from questions I had growing up and the feelings that were attached to those questions and the way some people were treated and the way some people were judged. My own did a lot of judging of anyone who stepped outside any traditional SDA belief/practice.

So here are my questions:

Growing up if you were SDA you were vegetarian. Yes, there were some "approved" meats I guess but not for us we were strictly vegetarian. I understand scripturally where this belief comes from. I know there are plenty of non SDA folks and non believers period who are also vegetarian for other reasons.

So what is SDA stance on eating meat today? Is it the same? Is there a division among the church? If you eat meat are you "judged" not a good SDA?

Oddly even though I am not a practicing SDA I still do not eat shellfish or pork. Now I ask myself do I not eat these things because of what I was taught or because they just gross me out or do they gross me out because of what I was taught?

Next question...what is SDA stance on wearing jewelry? Again, I know the scriptural reference (do not adorn yourself...) as to why but I was always confused as to whole no wedding ring thing. Growing up SDA's would give each other an engagement watch. A watch is a useful thing yes. However it never made sense to me. Many of the woman's engagement watches would be covered in diamonds and they would be comparing them just as other woman would compare and engagement ring. Why don't SDA just wear a simple gold band to show marriage? Why wouldn't they want to show they are married this way? If the problem is with adornment then why the "elaborate diamond" watches? Some people in the church did wear wedding rings and some even wore other jewelry as well but again there was a certain amount of judgement passed on those who did. Where is the stance of the SDA church today regarding this belief?

No matter how hard I try to convince myself that any other day could be the "Sabbath" day I still find myself very comfortable with the idea of attending my new churches Saturday service. When I look at the calender Sunday is still the first day of the week so therefore that would make Saturday the seventh day and therefore the Sabbath. The pastor of the new church even made reference to this. He said it doesn't really matter what day you rest and you can rest "today" if your tired. This also made sense to me.

Growing up I was taught to believe that you did no work from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. No work meant no going to the store, no cooking (all meals for Sabbath had to be prepared ahead. They could be reheated but should be prepared ahead.) no TV watching etc. What is SDA stance today on sundown to sundown? What if you need milk? What if you have a job that requires you to work on Saturday?

Now this I really don't know at all and maybe it is just a coincidence but why are so many SDA colleges "medical profession based" ? Is there a specific reason why so many Adventists go into the medical field? Is there a biblical reason for this? Are there certain professions that SDA's should just never enter?

What about speaking in tongues? I was raised to believe that speaking in tongues was done in biblical times because many that came to hear Jesus speak where all speaking different languages therefore speaking in tongues then was done so that all that were gathered could understand what Jesus was saying. I was raised to believe that speaking in tongues in today's world was bad and that people that were doing so were not doing so through the Holy Spirit but rather this was the work of Satan. Because in today's churches most people are speaking the same language so tongues are unnecessary. Any church that I ever attended with friends where speaking in tongues occurred terrified me. I am still scared of it. What is the SDA stance on this today? Why?

Scripturally speaking I would say that I know the least about the Holy Spirit. My belief today is that the Holy Spirit is the way that God speaks to us. It is what in the past I would have considered intuition or gut instinct. What is SDA stance on the Holy Spirit and how it is related to the trinity? What are true "gifts" from the Holy Spirit? This kind of goes back to the tongues thing as some believe that tongues are a gift from the Holy Spirit. I am very confused by this. I really need to try to understand why I am so terrified of tongues and still hold the belief that tongues = Satan working through people and not the Holy Spirit. Am I way off on SDA belief regarding this? No one is speaking in tongues in my new church which is a relief to me. However I do not wish to be closed minded or judgemental of others who do speak in tongues in other faiths. Is this just an SDA thing? Is it a christian thing? Aren't pentecostals Christians? Please understand I am not trying to offend anyone of any faith here I am just confused about this practice.

What is the official SDA position regarding the prophet Ellen G. White? I was going to ask this earlier and then I did a websearch and came across this link:
Ellen G. White

Since this is just a website I am wondering what the official SDA general conference's position is regarding White? Was she a prophet...a false prophet? Again this goes back to my less than good understanding of the Holy Spirit's gifts. Does the Holy Spirit give gifts to certain individuals and are they prophets? Then I think about scriptural teachings about not believing in false prophets and do not want to be judgemental or confused. Am I making any sense?

And finally I have some questions regarding the second coming. I was raised as was my husband(raised Lutheran) to believe in the second coming. I was taught that the skies would open up and He would return and all would fall to their knees. The dead would be raised and this is when believers would be taken to live in heaven. As a child I was terrified every time there would be a dark sky or storm. I was always thinking well this is it. I was scared that I wouldn't go to heaven. I thought somehow I had not "done" enough to get to go. I realize now that our "works" don't get us there but why as a child would I have thought that I wouldn't get to go. Maybe this was my own self worth etc. issues but it still upsets me that even as a child I thought that I would not have "earned" a place in heaven. I understand that this is wrong thinking now but I am wondering how I could have assumed this as a child. I am wondering if there was some subtext that I got that would make me think this.

My questions regarding the second coming are is it this way? Will the skies open up and God return to claim us this way? What happens to people when they die? I know their physical body dies and is buried or whatever but what happens to their spirit? Does the spirit go right on to heaven or does the spirit remain dead until the second coming? When my mom died people told me, "Oh she is in a better place now or she is with God now." Is this true? Is she with God or is her spirit waiting for the second coming?

I also am going to have some questions about the "end of time" and Revelations. Maybe for another post since I have already asked a lot here.

Thanks for your help.

Jilly,

I will go through your questions one by one, though probably not until tomorrow after my H leaves for work.

Those are all very good questions, and I would be happy to share what the Bible says, or just my opinion in the areas which are not spelled out as specifically.

First of all, I’m very sorry that judgmental people tarnished your image of what a Christian should be. I know this happens in most denominations, but it does not make it right. It is actually the same mindset that got the Jews into so much trouble over the past few thousand years: we have the oracles of God, we are special, we are chosen, we are better than everybody else, and anyone who is different from us is a terrible person. But any person, regardless of denomination, who has been given special blessings/gifts by God, is also under special obligation to share them

My parents carefully sheltered us from that (and all kinds of other bad stuff), until we were much older. They didn’t shelter us from the knowledge of it, and from a young age would educate us about any error of action or belief that caused them concern, freely sharing the Scripture and their views, but they did shield us from experiencing it, the harsh critical spirit and judgmentalism that is always around somewhere.

They showed us the distinction between judging people (this is bad) and judging actions (this is necessary), and really honed in on the concept of “there but for the grace of God, go I”. No matter what the sin, we are all capable of falling into it. So although we unhesitatingly label sin by its right name, it is not with a sense of superiority, but reverent thankfulness as we realize that God’s grace has kept us from the degradation we abhor. And we recognize that in even the worst, most debased sinner, God sees a precious soul that Jesus died to save, and if we are to be like Him, we will see their value, too.

Well, vegetarianism is an easy one, so I’m glad you started with that. My understanding of the official church position is that it is recommended as the best diet, but certainly not required.

Jesus ate meat, but it was clean meat, and prepared by His own strict requirements, i.e. kosher. The Bible says not to eat meat with the blood still in it. (Genesis 9:4) That prohibition was first given to Noah, before there was ever a Jew to be found, so it is not part of the ceremonial law. (A note about the preceding verse, Genesis 9:3. Placing it into the context of clean vs. unclean animals at the time of the flood, and all the subsequent instruction, I would interpret this to mean animals within the guidelines already set up, not that God told Noah to eat everything that slithers and slimes and squiggles on the earth.)

I also suspect that there may have been health-related reasons why Jesus ate, and allowed the Jews to eat, meat during that time. There may have been some key minerals not available otherwise for those who were impoverished, and had such limited dietary options.

It is also my personal opinion (which means it is worthless ), that if Jesus were here today He would be a vegetarian, since that is, IMO, the best diet currently available.

In the beginning, man was given fruits, grains, and nuts to eat. After being booted from the Garden of Eden, God added in vegetables. In heaven, since we will not “hurt nor destroy”, and nothing will die, it appears that we will revert to our original diet.

All you have to do is read the newspaper to see many reasons why eating meat is not healthful in today’s world. But if a person is going to eat meat, it should be according to the Bible’s guidelines (clean and kosher), and then many of the diseases can still be avoided. You may know this already, but when slaughtering animals for kosher meat, the throat is cut and the animal is allowed to bleed out as it dies, so the meat is left virtually bloodless.

You don’t eat shellfish or pork – good, you will avoid quite a few problems and contaminations that way. I don’t have a clue whether the chicken comes before the egg or not. All I can tell you, is that having been raised vegetarian myself (though my dad ate clean-but-non-kosher meats while he was growing up), I would find it difficult if not impossible to adjust to a life of carnivorousness. Who knows if it is because it is just gross, or if it is only gross when you aren’t used to it? (I always secretly felt sorry for Jesus, not only having to eat meat, but having to eat the cute little fishies and lambkins that He had made Himself.)

As to anyone being judged by someone else because of their diet, the same principles hold true in every situation, whether it is a small matter of two different interpretations on some insignificant belief, or whether it is a crucial matter that can affect our salvation. Everything that we do should be done in love, with the goal of drawing others nearer to Jesus, not driving them away.

Even on those occasions where a warning needs to be done, it should be prayerfully presented as gently as possible, so as to uplift rather than discourage. As one of my favorite preachers says, “God didn’t make us a bunch of junior Holy Spirits.” It doesn’t mean there is no place for stern rebuke in times of crisis – God called Elijah just as much as He called Isaiah, and John the Baptist was inspired by the same Spirit as Jesus.

But what it does mean is that a harsh, critical spirit is displeasing to God. So we recognize that those people who indulge in it are doing wrong, and lift them before God in prayer to ask that He will lead them and convict them to become the loving people He wants them to be. We also see that in our interactions with them, that we display to them the same love we would like them to show, even if they are rebuking us directly.

Are people still sometimes judgmental toward those who do not adhere to the same dietary guidelines? Sometimes. Should they? No.

I hope that answer is detailed enough for what you were looking for. If it was not, or if you have any further questions about the other subjects as they come along, please let me know. If I haven’t been clear about something, or if you want to go a little deeper into some area, just ask.

God bless.

My goodness, darling, looks like you're going to be wading into deep waters here with a vengeance. I am always intrigued to hear what you have to say about stuff like this, hoping to recognize something I taught you, but fascinated to see you put your own insight into it as well. That's why your book was such a surprise to me, and I so often found myself saying, "Well, I never thought of this quite that way before."

I think of vegetarianism as being like following the owner's manual on your new car. If it says premium, don't use regular. If it specifies oil in this hole and water in another, don't mistake one insertion site for the other, or mix the two additives together. Don't put windshield washer in your coolant tank. Etc. When man was first created, at the peak of humanity's physical power and mental health, the Manufacturer gave them detailed instructions on the care and upkeep of their body machines. When humanity, in heaven, is restored to its original condition of purity and might, we will not eat anything dead, since the Bible promises "...they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain." This interval in which we live, during which sin and death have dominion, is an aberration...and a temporary one at that. It seems reasonable to me that if plant food was best for perfect original man, and will be best for perfect "changed" man, it's best for weak, struggling, dying man now, too.

Vegetarianism should never be a works-oriented thing, although I admit it often is. It is simply God's gift to me, to keep my body as healthy as possible for as long as possible so that I will be better able to live, and work, and glorify my Maker to my full capacity.

t&l

P.S. Neak, did your sister tell you about the surprise?

Neak,

Thanks for the response. It makes a lot of sense to me and I have never really had a problem with eating or not eating meat as a personal choice for me. I guess in the way TL put it best it shouldn't be put as "works" based idea. I see that I am not going to get into heaven by being a vegetarian or not. I just wondered why there was always so much judgement from certain SDA's regarding this. I see know also that a child/ young adult's perspective is much different than an adult. Also if you had a judgemental SDA grandmother (which I did) then you might learn to think that you are a bad Christian if you eat meat which is absolutely ridiculous. I see this now. Thanks.


This has caused me great confusion over the years. I think I somehow got the message that there is a hierarchy of Christians based on works. WOW...how off could I be. Sadly because although I had belief but no faith and therefore no real personal relationship with God myself (even though I think I thought I was doing what I was "supposed" to be doing) I didn't get the message that accepting Jesus and his message is where it is at. From there our actions as we learn more will represent more of what we know to be truth. Not outer work but rather inner work...deep inner work. When we change as people because of inner work with God our outer self will change as well.

I'll give an example. Taking the Lord's name in vain was one of the worst things you could do in my house as a child. It was a huge NO NO. During my rebellion against the church and God I was very angry. I blamed God for my disillusionment so like an angry rebellion teenager I began to say one specific phrase in particular. It became a regular part of my venacular. I said it when I was mad and I said it just as part of my vocabulary. Kind of like how some people use the "F" word. Well a couple of weeks ago I made a conscious choice to stop saying this.(Maybe I already posted this) The first few days or so I would catch myself and then apologize to God. I just really became aware of how much I really said it and now I am just not saying it anymore. Even if I drop something on my toe it has been replaced by something less repulsive. This change came about from my inner work. It isn't for the benefit of others(although some will surely benefit from it) it is my inner work with God so I am really starting to see this logic.

Inner work is hard... but the weird thing is that even though I am sifting through some pretty heavy stuff I don't have the same mindset (run away..don't go there...NEVER think about THAT) I feel a sense of peace about looking at it and accepting it for what it is or was. I understand that actions positive and negative have consequences. My sin has consequences but my self worth is no longer defined by my sins.I cannot really find the words to explain what is happening in our lives right now. All I know is that we let go of the reigns and have been graced because of it.

AMEN Neak.



I am working hard on this. I don't want to be that person. I no longer wish to think about things that way...any things. Love the sinner doesn't mean you love the sin. God loves us and we are all sinners but doesn't mean He doesn't want us to obey and stop sinning. yes?

Thank you for helping me understand the vegetarian thing better.

You know what I see...I see that I had a big fat plank in my eye. Maybe I was so mad at the SDA's because the plank in my eye wouldn't let me see that I was doing the same thing I don't like so much myself. So I guess what I see is that I was being a hypocrite... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Back to Ephesians.
Thanks again.

One quick comment about the "bad Christian if you eat meat" thing.

It is not the eating meat that gets you into trouble, but the attitude with which you do it. Do you eat meat because you want to glorify God with your body, and to present Him with the best temple you can, and eating meat is part of the best diet you know?

Or do you eat meat even though you believe you shouldn't because you like it? Or eat it because your parents told you not to?

Rebellion will separate you from God, regardless of whether what you are rebelling over is right or wrong. Look at your motives carefully, and that will tell you a great deal. Are you trying to please God, or excuse something you think is wrong?

That is a far better indicator of a person's standing with God than the contents of their diet.

Not that eating the healthiest diet possible is not important, but what is the most crucial is doing the right things for the right reasons.

This is probably my longest post yet............


I know I’m going to get myself in trouble on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Jewelry and adornment is often a very touchy issue, but I won’t let that stop me. What does God say about jewelry? That is what is most important to me, not what other people think.

Hopefully after reading what I’ve already written, it will be clear that I am not judging those who wear jewelry, or placing myself above them in any way. I believe the Bible makes it pretty clear that God does not approve of jewelry or elaborate displays, and my love for Jesus has led me to put aside things I once thought nothing of wearing. (I often sneaked jewelry during my brief rebellious period, and if my mom didn’t know it before, I guess she does now. I have also recently become uncomfortable with some of my tops being a bit too low-cut. Just two examples from my own life – I am far from perfect.)

Mom always told us a story.


Of course the point she wanted us to learn (and we must have, if I still remember the story 20 years later), was to have an attitude of wanting always to do more for God, to please Jesus even better, not to see how little we could get by with, and still be saved.

So with that in mind, let me bring in a few verses. We’ll just kinda start at the beginning.

Jacob, after he had traveled from Laban’s household, passed by the very spot he had dreamed of the ladder that reached to heaven. As a reminder, he had set up the stone he had used for a pillow, and called the place Bethel, which means “House of God”. There he made atonement for his family, and rededicated each one to the Lord.


So here, in the place God appointed to meet with Jacob, and to rededicate the entire family to the true God, Jacob called them to put aside the symbols of paganism and idol worship, which included their jewelry.

The same thing happened during the time of Moses. While Moses was on the mountain, talking with God face to face, the people were down in the camp, making the golden calf. They put on their jewelry, or at least what was left after using their golden earrings to make the calf, and danced around, doing a whole bunch of stuff they hadn’t oughta. God told Moses there was trouble and sent him back down to put a stop to it.

Before thinking what followed was too harsh, think what a high standard any of us would be held to if we lived at the base of the mountain of God’s glory, heard His voice speaking the Ten Commandments to us, and we bowed directly before Him and promised to obey. And if, having done that, in a month’s time gone back to worshiping idols, getting plastered, and performing vile acts right there in front of His face. Had such flagrant rebellion been allowed to continue, the people would all have ultimately been destroyed. It is also worthy of note that only those who refused to turn from their rebellion were killed. Everyone had a chance to be saved.

The bloodshed over, it was a sad, humble, and sober group that stood before God. Before He would even talk to them about a new deal, He told them to get rid of their heathen trappings.


The chapter goes on to describe how Moses continued to plead for the children of Israel, and how God agreed to give them another chance, once they had cleansed themselves of adornment to show their sorrow and repentance.

Then there is Isaiah. This whole section is well worth reading, as God, through His prophet, describes the condition of the Israelite women, and contrasts it with what He wants them to be like. Note that this rebuke is given as God begins a time of judgment.


Unless I misread it, the condemnation applies to rings, and does not make an exception for wedding rings. Which is why I do not wear one. Take a look at the very next chapter…


Please read the whole segment, so you see I am not taking anything out of context, or twisting it to suit my point. (This applies to any subject, not just this one.)

First we have God’s people coming under judgment, but they are polluted by a long list of ornaments, including rings, earrings, bracelets, and extravagant clothing. God lists in detail all the things that displease Him, and then says that those who remain after He has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, are to be called holy.

Here’s where I start really getting in trouble. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> This denunciation of prideful display lays down principles that would exclude the fancy watches you mentioned, or the flashy clothes so many people wear today to church, my (late) grandmother’s bejeweled broaches, and a host of other things we all are pretty attached to. (And low-cut blouses, lol.) In fact, we are so attached to it that God has to remove it by a ‘spirit of burning’.

A few other places where impure or idolatrous women are described as being heavily made-up and/or bejeweled.
Jeremiah 4:30
Ezekiel 23:40
Hosea 2:13
Revelation 17:4

The New Testament does not change the picture, and suddenly start encouraging jewelry and make-up.


(The verses just after this about women keeping silent are a whole nuther topic!)


As I examine my own life, saying, “What more can I do for Jesus, who gave Himself for me, and died for me?” this seems like such a small thing for Him to ask. Much like Naaman when he was instructed to dip in the Jordan River to find healing, and in his pride, he didn’t want to get in the muddy water. The rivers of Syria were much cleaner and more attractive. His men told him, “Wouldn’t you have done it, if the prophet had asked you to do some hard thing? Why not this one small thing he asked of you?”

When I compare what Jesus gave up to come to earth, any sacrifice I might make seems so small by comparison, and well worth it, if it pleases Him. (Obviously His idea of beauty is very different than the world’s opinions.) So that is why I do what I do, whether it is not wearing jewelry, keeping the Sabbath, or anything else. What others do is between their own hearts and God. And if they are sincere, God will lead them into all truth. We just need to each have a willing, pliable spirit, and to be open to His leading, even if He takes us in some unexpected directions.

Jilly, I think perhaps the best thing for me to do is to retire from this thread.

I am somewhat deeply troubled by the direction this has taken and I don't wish to potentially add to your struggles by entering into a discussion of SDA teaching. Suffice it to say that I am of the belief that the Scripture teaches clearly that is NOT what goes into (or for that matter what goes ONTO someone) that has anything whatsoever to do with "holiness" or acceptability before God. If someone chooses to go back to a "do this or don't do that" sort of Pharaisitic type teaching, they can, but Scripture clearly teaches against the bondage of "works." I happen to believe that Miller was a false prophet and as such, the Scripture is equally clear about what a believer's response to such a person's teaching should be.

That's all I'm going to say and I'll leave you to the others who are SDA's or who adhere to those teachings.

Last thought, let no one judge you by the clothes you wear (including jewelry) or the food you eat. Let me simply let Scripture speak through Paul rather than give you my opinion:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncirumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the basic priciples of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?

22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Colossians 2:13-23 NIV, emphasis added)


God bless and continue to help you with your recovery and to guide you in your study of His Word.

FH, I apologize if it did not come across in the way I wrote this, that I do not judge Jilly, or anyone else who has not chosen the same belief system and lifestyle as me.

Nor do I think I am ever made holy by anything that I do. By my actions I can make myself unholy, but only God through His Spirit can make me, or anyone else, holy.

The passage you quoted applies to the ceremonial law, the law of ordinances that was against us, and that was nailed to the cross. We no longer have to keep them - they were fulfilled in Jesus.

Also, I do not believe William Miller was a prophet. IMO, he was a sincere man who misinterpreted the prophecy about the sanctuary, and because of his faulty premise, came to a faulty conclusion. But God used his mistake to focus the attention of the world at that time, on the books of Daniel and Revelation. Nothing that I believe, or have said here, is based in any way on the teachings of William Miller. He is an interesting man, had a work to do in his day, but would be a very poor foundation for belief. For me, it always comes back to what does the Bible say? and not what does William Miller say?

The leaven of the prideful Pharisees must still be avoided at all cost. They believed they were made holy by what they did, they wanted to make sure everyone could see what they had done so they would know how holy they were, and they were very vocal in their criticism of anyone who disagreed, including Jesus.

I hope that after clarifying, that you can see that this is not what I believe, and is not why I have chosen to live the way that I do. Although I can make myself unholy by my actions, only God can make me holy. Only God can save me.

By embracing what I have embraced, and giving up what I have given up, I want to serve God to the best of my knowledge and ability, trusting Him to continue His work in me, and to correct my understanding in His time, if I remain open to His leading. Any sacrifices I make are made joyfully, as I am overjoyed that He has asked anything of me at all.

It does not add to my worth, my holiness, my salvation, but it increases my pleasure in serving Him.


Not out of fear, not out of pride, but out of reverence for God.

Neak - I understand what you are saying and that for you, that is how you view the "doing" of certain things. There is no problem with that. I have "problems," if you will, with other things, just as I do with members of many denominations who put "human thought" ahead of God's Word.

The "problem," without going into detail, that I have with the SDA church is fairly simple, but the discussion is complex at times. First, Ellen White is considered a "prophet" by many, yet it is fairly well known now that much of what she had to say was plagerized, not original. Second, the "emphasis" on a Saturday Sabbath, ala the Old Testament day for the Jews, the often overemphasis on what is eaten, as in "vegetarianism is the 'best'" form of eating, etc. lends itself very easily to the "weak in faith" being mislead into "works" as begin a "defining" criteria for what a "true Christian is."

My discussion with Jilly originated from just that sort of thinking of the part of some others who felt that the ONLY solution to a marriage begun through adultery was to divorce and return to their original spouse. IF the "criteria" for "being right with God" entailed ANYTHING that we HAD to do, then the need for Jesus to "do it for us" would have not existed and His death for us to reconcile us to God would have been meaningless, perhaps even a "cruel joke" by the Father.

Can certain behaviors be beneficial or detrimental to our health? Sure. Even a strict vegetarian diet can lead to health problems. The ONLY point I am making is that God declared all food to be "clean" and "ranking" foods, other than by personal preference likes and dislikes (I hate liver, for example), and WHAT we eat has no bearing on our "holiness" or "standing before God."

Likewise, Jesus made it quite clear that "good works" on the Sabbath are okay. He further made it clear that ANY day can be a "Sabbath Day" to us. In fact, every day should be lived as if it were a Sabbath Day. Christians have selected Sunday as the day to worship the risen Christ because that is the day that He rose from the dead to begin our "new life in Him." It is NOT that Sunday is the only day. It is to signify the beginning of the "new week" in God, the "first fruit" of the week, if you will. Regardless of the day that believers gather together, it is in obedience to God's command that we don't forsake the gathering together of the saints. The "old way," if you will, as the only way (Saturday as the Sabbath, or really sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), was supplanted by "man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man. The "old laws" were nailed to the cross with Jesus, and a "new age in Christ" began with His resurrection.


What "contaminates the body and spirit" is NOT what goes into a person or what they wear. It is what comes out of their heart that makes them "clean or unclean."

All life, Adam and Eve and all the animals, were, imho, herbivores BEFORE the Fall. After the Fall, everything changed, including death. There are now, for example, poisonous to humans, plants and animals, the eating of which can lead to death. The WHOLE earth and all that is in it became corrupted as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God. We dare not "elevate" anything above God's will and humble submission to His commands as revealed in Scripture.

Regardless of what many may believe, the WAY is narrow, and is dependent solely upon Christ and not our "actions."

If someone, because they love God and want to do the best that they can, chooses to NOT do something (like eating meat) because THEY themselves consider it a sin to DO whatever it is, then they should not do it. But they should not seek to impose their "Rule" on someone else who doesn't see, for example, eating a juicy steak or a hamburger or an oyster(I don't like oysters, but my wife does), as somehow making that person "less" of a believer in Christ.

The "judging" that I was referring to was directed at things like Jilly's grandmother who DID make it clear that someone was "less of a Christian," perhaps even an "unbeliever," if they ate any diet other than vegetarian.
It was not directed specifically at you.

God bless.

As will no doubt be seen, there are definitely some differences between what you believe and what I believe, but I'm also sure we will agree to disagree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is a privilege to be able to share on the subjects Jilly has asked about, but I view it only as that, sharing, and would not want Jilly (or anyone else) to do ANYTHING unless they studied it out for themselves, and were whole-heartedly convicted by the Holy Spirit that it is the truth.

Not that I think you said I was, (I don't), but I am not here to impose my views on anyone. I believe that we should study the Bible for ourselves, and not just take what any person or group of people says.


If the believers of Berea were commended for doing their own research on a brilliant man like Paul, how much more searching would be needed for a Neak? Oodles, at least.

God bless you, too.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey,

The Cross was enough.

I completely agree. Jesus' sacrifice in our place meant that full forgiveness is available to anyone who will accept it.

Would you care to elaborate on what the cross means to you?

Neak,

The Cross means everything to me. It is what allows me to truly have faith. It means that I don't have to as I once believed "earn" my way. Any former belief that I have to earn my way through works to me seems like a slap in God's face...saying what He gave us all (the cross...the forgiveness...the blood shed to wash my sins clean) wasn't enough. I cannot say that to God because His sacrifice was so great that I can no longer deny what He has given me.

I often hear the phrase..."The path is narrow" what this used to mean to me and what caused me to be so afraid is that the narrowness of the path meant following so many rules and any mistep would lead to eternal damnation. I no longer think this is what the path is narrow means. What it means to me now is the path is the cross...accepting the gift is what is narrow. No amount of works will ever earn my way...accepting and believing that He gave his only Son so that I don't have to earn my way is what I see as narrow. It is narrow because the narrowness is that it is that simple...if we truly accept it. I accept this narrow path that the only way is through the belief that the Cross is enough.

This doesn't mean that I don't want to continue to study...learn...grow and develop a stronger relationship with God because I do. I think the vertical relationshiop (God and me) is the most important one. All my other horizontal relationships will be affected as a result of my vertical one. I see it already. I see the courage and strength that God has given to me since surrendering my life to Him. I know I cannot do it without Him. This has strengthened my ability to live in the truth with myself and within my marriage. All I know for sure is that when I surrendered and gave my life over to Him stuff started getting better. When my H surrenedered and gave his life over things started getting even better. We have a sense of peace and serenity that we never had before. We are able to break down those walls between us because of our R with God. It has been the one true thing that has radically changed every other aspect of our lives.

I love and trust God with all of my heart now and He never lets me down. He gently guides me everyday. I know this serenity comes because of my total acceptance of the Cross. His sacrifice is enough. I will not slap Him in the face and say that it wasn't.

He is the way the truth amd the life...he who believes in him shall never die. What a Father we have. One who has given us such unconditional love. I stand in awe of what He has given us.

I undoubtly will become a happier and better soul through Him but the inner work I do with Him is his gift to me also. I am not earning anything...again He is providing me with this gift of His one on one relationship with me. I am stronger, safer, and more loved than I ever thought possible because He loves me that much. He cares about me that much and He will give me what I need.

Jesus saves...

FH,

Last night my husband and I went on a date. We have been trying to do this more as this was not a regular part of our marriage in the past...scheduling time together without the kids.

So our date consisted of dinner, a trip to Starbucks after, and then church. My husband planned this date and he planned for us to go to church.



We were both sick last week...and so were the kids so I didn't go to church. My husband and I had planned to go together last week. Last week would have been his first time going. The week before that he was supposed to go but he didn't. That is the night he called the FOWH's to express his apology and offer amends to this man. Although at the time when I left with my friend for church (2 weekends ago) I was disappointed that he didn't go I didn't want to make a federal case out of it since I know my H well enough to know that doing this would only further push him away from church. It was when we came back from church that he confessed to both me and my friend that he called the FOWH and I have to say I was very proud of him for taking this step. I know it took a lot of courage for him to do this. It was a couple of days after that when he came in when I was putting my daughter down for bed crying and saying that he really felt God for the first time. I posted about this already I think.

Anyway so last weekend none of us went because we were all sick but we did an at home scripture study that night.

So this weekend he was insistent that he wanted to go. I was very happy that he set up our date to include going to church.

This is what happened when we went to church. We came into the sanctuary and I suggested that we sit on the side close to one of the exits close to the back. We sat there. Then my husband took me by complete surprise when he asked if I would mind if we sat in the FRONT row. I said it was fine with me if that was what he wanted. So we moved to the front row. We were there early enough so that we moved before the service actually started. I was a bit hesitant about being in the front because I knew what happened to me the first time I went and wept. I had a feeling that my H might weep too but I just accepted that this was where he wanted to sit so we sat there.

From the moment the service started my husband was on his feet singing. The service is an alternative one where they have a band and really good music. Being there with my husband made me feel safe. I don't really know how to explain this other than to say that growing up I never attended any service where there was this kind of music or a band or anything like this. My past experience was one of a very traditional service where only hymns were sung and it was very for lack of a better word choice I guess...proper?

So with my H there I felt like I could sing. I had stood for the singing the other times I went with my friend but I couldn't bring myself to sing. With my H I felt stronger to participate. Then came the offering and then a song by a male soloist so we were no sitting down. The lyrics to this song(actually all the songs are projected onto 2 big screens) so you can read the words and sing along. The lyrics to this song really struck a chord with my husband and he began to weep. We didn't get up and go out. He wept and I put my arms around him the same way my friend had put her arms around me when I wept the first time. He quietly says to me thank you for taking the first step to get us here to church. He continued by saying that we needed to be here every week. I felt the sincerity and the raw truth of what I was witnessing happening to him. During the final prayer that the pastor gives he always asks those who need Jesus right now to raise their hand. The previous times I have been although I wanted to raise my hand I just couldn't. When it happened this week with my husband there with me we both raised our hands. Maybe this seems insignificant but it I know it isn't. I know that this just shows me how much we need this as a couple and how we need to build our marriage with God.

The message of the sermon (a continuation of the rest series) reiterated what I needed to here. That it makes no difference what day we rest (choose as our Sabbath) we can rest TODAY. We can rest every TODAY that we need. I also learned something I didn't know about why Sunday was chosen as the day for many. I didn't know that Sunday was chosen because that was the day Jesus was risen. But the pastor again suggested that the day of the week doesn't matter because the reason we need to rest is to reconnect to God and that reconnecting with God can take place any and everyday that we need it. He said that yes we should schedule regular time with God via going to a service but that if we need more than once a week that's okay today. He also talked about making a way "into the zone" meaning that the Sabbath (again whatever day you choose) was God's regulatory measure for maintaining connection to God and balance in life.

Key Habits for this are Rhythms of rest and rituals of trust. Habits bear fruit. If I want to be in the zone I need to do the following.

I need to take responsibility. Change my mind (concentration) my determination.

Next I need to join community. In the zone I am a recipient and dispenser of forgiveness. ("Forgive as the Lord forgave you." Colossians 3:13) I am a recipient and dispenser of acceptance. (Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God." Romans 15:7)I am a recipient and a dispenser of love. ("A new command I give you: Love one another, As I have loved you, so you must love one another." John 13:34) Which also means I need to change my membership, my affiliation.

I need to build accountability. Rest requires rituals (structure...going to church). This require event control (in other words we need to schedule God and worship into our calender and if this means that we need to give up being so overscheduled that we make scheduling in God our priority.) Rest requires relationships (Support...ie community and fellowship within the church). We need to get yoked up with God and fellow believers.

This message was so clear to my H and I and it means that we go to church every week and we will become a part of this community which will help us build accountability...ie. not finding excuse to NOT go to church.

After church as we were walking out to the car hand in hand my H was crying a little bit but he said that he felt like this was the exact church we need to be at. I know God led me to call the particular friend that I did to attend this church because I have other friends that go to church and we could have also gone with my in laws but God did lead me to this friend and this church. It is the place our family need to be. The church has a lot to offer in terms of support groups and counseling. My husband stated that he felt at home in this church more than he has ever felt at home in any church which is the same feeling I had when I went the first time. We both accept that we need God in our marriage if we want to rebuild it from the ground up. It didn't start out on a good foundation...but that doesn't mean it can't be overhauled and rebuilt with God's grace and leadership.

Since surrendering our lives and our marriage to God we both have a new found strength and serenity that we know is because of Him. This strength allows us the courage to speak the truth and break down the walls that have disconnected us for too long. This peace of mind drives us on to do the inner work we need to with God and with our selves and with each other. All I know is that if we would not have made this change I don't know where our marriage might be now. If you would have asked me right after D-day if I thought I would ever feel this close to my husband again I don't know where I would have been with that. God has saved my life not only eternally but also here on Earth and I am on my knees in humbleness and awe at how great He is.

Edited to add: our new church is non-denominational.

(((((Jilly)))))

Consider this, if you will. It might make more sense now.

God knows all the days that are accounted to us.

God knows our hearts, unlike anyone else living.

God knows the paths we take and how each one of us will respond.

God knows even the bad things we choose and the bad things we endure, and how to use even those things to touch our hearts and bring us to the point of confession and surrender to Him.

God knows how we are as newly born again believers and we know that as our Father, He has begun a lifelong work in our lives to "raise us up" as one of His children.

God knows what we need, not necessarily what we want, and He gives us three very important "assistants," "mentors," and "protectors."

They are:

1. The indwelling Holy Spirit who will guide us in all things.

2. His eternal promise that no matter what we face, "I can do all things through him who gives me strength." We have God's strength, without limit, to face anything and to do anything, especially those things that we think are "humanly impossible."

3. He gives us the Full Armor of God. He has given us some of it, and He tells us to TAKE the rest of it that He has laid before us.

Thus we can STAND. No matter what. Especially when we feel beaten down and can't take another step. Especially when we begin to be assailed with doubts about the "goodness of God" or that "God didn't really mean what He said."

Jesus IS the Good Shepard, among all of His titles and roles.

If you have any questions at any time, feel free to ask them or to send me an email.

God bless.

Jilly, I just wanted to briefly check in. I had company over the weekend, and have not been on here for more than a couple minutes. I'll be around more in the next few days. It is wonderful that you are learning to love Jesus more, and that your husband went to church.

FH,

We went as a whole family to church tonight. We took the kids. We sat in the front row again (this is my H's way and I would probably not sit in the front on my own which seems ridiculous since I always sit in the front row in every college class I've ever taken because I know I do better, pay attention more etc. in the front.) so I guess I am really actually grateful to my H for having the courage to sit in the front row.

The pastor came over tonight to meet us...said he saw us last week. My H told him we are interested in joining. We know from others that this pastor and his wife survived an affair too so there is some comfort in knowing that even pastors are human and make mistakes and can recover their faith, their marriage, their family, and their life and be stronger and healthier people for reconnecting with God and self.

I started reading the John Bradshaw book that is on the LA thread about owning your villagers called Healing the Shame That Binds You. It is a good read so far and I think with God's help this book will be important in my recovery of my authentic self which I lost a very very long time ago. Fortunately it isn't so lost that it cannot be uncovered. It will require work but again although this work will be hard I feel guided by God to get myself healthy... and to continue to live in my truth with God.

Tonight sermon was the set-up for the next series which is called "Experiencing God" which could not have come at a better time for me or my H. The pastor talked about how we may read, know about, study God...but if we want a real R with him it goes beyond that. The Word is the map to the path...when we read God's word often then when we call upon him He is better able to help us find what we need in His Word. But we have to connect to Him which goes beyond just studying because we can study and have all the belief system in place and still remain unconnected to God. (Hmmmm...this part I felt was meant for me to hear.) It was a good message. We are thinking about taking a class with the pastor and also maybe joining a small group (couples) to do a more personal study on the "Experiencing God" series.

I like that the church does a lot of small group stuff to help connect people in the congregation with others who are willing to open up and really be honest about what's going on in their lives with others. It takes a lot of courage to do this but I was proud of my H for saying that he will NO longer hide from the truth or pretend nothing is wrong. All I can say is that I am so blessed by God to have Him working on my H too because I see so many changes since our surrender to Him.

I am studying in Matthew and reviewing Luke. I have a question about my NIV study Bible. Why is some of the text red? It is only red in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It isn't red throughout just in some parts. I have searched the study references in it but cannot seem to find any notes on why some text is red. Do you have any idea?

And finally I know this is probably on a lot of people's minds right now too but I am really thinking about the anniversary of 9/11 and I am praying for the people who were hurt so much by this attack. God Bless those everywhere who were hurt by this tragedy.

MM, FH, Neakers and JJ,

Since you're reading the Bradshaw book, I thought I'd ask a question, also, if that's okay.

In Eden, when our reaction to having eaten the apple was shame, to cover ourselves...do you think human shame (a healthy God ingredient) taken to an unhealthy degree is what gets between us having a close relationship with God?

And would this be where God made the definite line between loving the sinner and not the sins? From their choices, their actions, not THEMSELVES, God gave consequences...

Shame separate from guilt...

LA