LOL! A few?!?

Jilly, you are asking lot of good questions, but I want you to know that answering them is getting into Theology, and that takes time. I'm willing to have a "go" at it, but at the same time I want you know that you may have to patient and not try to "eat the whole elephant" at just one sitting.




God chose to save us because there was no other way but for Him to do it Himself. There is, and never has been, any "perfect" man or woman. That is why Jesus had to become a man, so through HIS life, through His taking in our place the wrath of God as the just penalty for sin, His righteousness could be imparted to everyone who believes in Him.




Yes, but not in order to gain, or regain, our salvation. DOING (works) never saves anyone.




Yes.



Precisely.



The Sabbath was made for man, man wasn't made for the Sabbath, that is what Jesus taught. The Sabbath was made so that we would be able to focus our minds on God, to remember that He is God, the Creator of all things.




Assuming you are talking about a truly born again believer, then the answer to your question an emphatic "No."




Oh boy! This a a potential "can of worms," Jilly. There are many people on MB who believe that a believer CAN lose their salvation. I am not one of them. I believe in the doctine of Eternal Security, which is where you get the often used phrase "Once Saved, Always Saved." If you are "very serious about this question," then I will take time to discuss this with you. Just be aware that it may take a while to answer questions and to provide you with the information about WHY I believe the Scripture teaches that once a person is truly born again, they are sealed for eternity and cannot "lose their salvation."




Well, this person you described is me. Baptised as an infant, confirmed around 12 or 13, denied the faith around age 16 and remained an agnostic until about 23 when I finally accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, baptised by immersion 5 years ago. Have you been looking into my past? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />




Not to be flippant, but for the same reason there differences in other religions, fallen Men and attempting to make the Scripture fit what they want instead of them fitting what God has said. To put it another way, why do so many reject Christ, even though He DID rise from the dead after paying the "price God demanded" for sin?

God bless.

FH,

LOL FH actually I have more but these seemed like a lot to start with and since I am working on not rushing through things in my life to get to my truest beliefs then I am not in a big hurry. I just have a lot of questions. They don't have to be answered all at once or in some set time frame.

To be honest I don't think I could eat the whole elephant all at once even if I really wanted to because I need time to process what I am learning and get to the deep understanding that I am really yearning for. Does this make sense?

Okay so where I think I am really trying to gain a deeper understanding seems to me to be in the realm of the sanctification process.

How do you know and I mean this in total sincerity... how doe you know if someone is truly born again? Does something happen so you know? I want to know for me... was something supposed to happen to me when I rededicated my life to Christ? Was I supposed to get some kind of a special sign?

I know some people have shared that they felt convicted by the Holy Spirit... even my H said he felt this strongly. I just felt more of a sense of inner peace. I cry a lot when I go to church... even though I am not exactly sure why I am crying. I don't think I cry because I am sad... I think I cry because I feel relief when I am there... safer somehow there. I feel embarrassed sometimes when I get all emotional at church but H says just to let it out.

What is the doctorine of Eternal Security? I know the OSAS thing is divisive here... this is where I first heard the term OSAS. I don't want to open a worm can for the sake of arguing... I just really want to understand what it means since I had never heard of OSAS until I came here.


LOL FH, not yours... mine. Raised in the church... baptized around 11 or 12. Rebellion in high school. I thought I was agnostic for awhile although in retrospect I am not sure if I ever really stopped believing in God although I certainly wasn't choosing the lifestyle of a believer. Stopped going to church in late high school. Hadn't really attended church for like 20 years. So that is why I asked. No secret sleuthing into FH's past. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This is why I think the only way I am truly going to get it... what I am trying so hard to understand is to study scripture deeply. I get that to some degree all religions are trying to make sense of scripture. I mean no DJ to any religious group... this is where I again get somewhat confused... if I read the bible what if what I read seems to mean something different to me than what it means to someone else. What if the word of God means something different to me then someone else... is my interpretation wrong? I am human trying to understand... I am not stupid nor do I think someone else who intreprets something in God's word to mean something different than me is stupid. But does that mean I am wrong? They are wrong? We're both wrong... both right?

I guess what I am getting at is when I read am I supposed to be asking myself, "What does that mean to me or what does that mean?" What if I am wrong in what I think it means... where do I go to get the TRUTH? Not my truth or someone else's truth but the TRUTH. Cause I think where the bible is concerned... there is the TRUTH. Am I making any sense at all here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Okay JJ, let's take this slowly, one at a time.

How do you know and I mean this in total sincerity... how do you know if someone is truly born again?

The only two people who can KNOW that someone is born again or not is the person theirself and God. Others "come to believe" that someone else is born again because they hear what the person says and sees what they do that give external evidence to having been born again. Please understand that being "born again" is a spiritual rebirth, not a physical rebirth. The body is still "dead in sin," but the spirit is "alive in Christ."

How do YOU know that you are born again? If you have confessed your sinful state to God and asked Him to forgive your sins because of what your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did for you, believing that Jesus IS the Savior, and surrendering your life to Him, you ARE born again. "All who call upon Him will be saved," "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, emphasis added)

See also John 3:16-21.


I know you may not understand this next part yet, I know I didn't understand it for a long time, but it is true nonetheless and our "understanding" of it is NOT required for it to be true or for our ability to BE saved through faith in Christ alone.

You are "born again" because God chose YOU, you did not choose him. Yes, you accepted the gift that He offered, but not before God changed your heart SO THAT you could could accept Christ. "All that you (God the Father) have given me (Jesus), I will not lose because that is your will," to paraphrase John 17. "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." (John 17:6) "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me (Jesus, Emmanuel). None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12) "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world." (John 17:24)

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30, emphasis added)


Does something happen so you know? I want to know for me... was something supposed to happen to me when I rededicated my life to Christ? Was I supposed to get some kind of a special sign?

Yes, you received the Holy Spirit, indwelling you, as the sign that you are sealed to Christ, that your name is in the Lambs Book of Life, and can NEVER be blotted out.

How do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." (John 14:13-20)


I know some people have shared that they felt convicted by the Holy Spirit... even my H said he felt this strongly. I just felt more of a sense of inner peace.

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." (John 14:25-27, emphasis added)




JJ, you cry for the same reason I cry at times...a broken and contrite heart, KNOWING that Jesus loved me and did the "unthinkable" in order to bring a "sinner like me" back to God, in HIS righteous that He GIVES to me simply because I believe in Him. I don't have to DO anything, and can't DO anything on my own to stand righteous and justified before holy God. I just have to receive, because Jesus paid the price of sin, the wrath of God, for me so that I would not have to suffer the just penalty for MY sin.

How can that NOT lead someone to tears when they realize just how HUGE a debt has been forgiven because "someone else" paid it for us and our debt has been stamped "paid in full" by God? Totally unworthy of God's love, yet He loved us anyway and it was the Father's will that Jesus die in our place to pay the REQUIRED penalty for sin to satisfy the Justice of God. We have passed from eternal death to eternal life solely by what God has done for us. It is by God's power that we are saved, and it is by God's power that all of those God has elected to BE saved WILL be saved.

That brings us to your next question about Eternal Security, the "Once Saved, Always Saved" issue you hear about, even hear denied and/or maligned. I'll save that for another post and begin there.


Before ending this post, here is something else for you to think about in answer to your question about how do you know that you are born again. You now have a heart that is changed, that is "inclined" toward hearing God and that has a strong desire to learn more about God. That desire comes from the Holy Spirit, who "will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I said to you." Just as someone grows from being a new born baby into childhood into adolescence into adulthood, so does a new born believer begin as a "spiritual baby," knowing that they are "alive," but not understanding the "why's and wherefore's." They begin the PROCESS of both growing (a physical process) and maturing (a mental process). There are teachers along the way, "professors" who have learned and are now passing along that learning to the "next generation." We start with "Run, Spot, run," and we learn the skill of reading and writing. Each thing we learn builds the foundation for more learning. But we never stop learning because we never "know" everything. Such it is with the Word of God. It begins with the "basics," BELIEVE in FAITH. The receive the "instructor," the Holy Spirit. Be faithful to God's command to "go and make disciples." That involves teaching, answering both simple and difficult questions. Study, so that you gain discernment to KNOW if what someone says is "from God or from Man."

Remember, the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing. "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor.2:14)

Remember, too "but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." (1Cor.2:10a)

"The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. ... The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"

But we have the mind of Christ." (1Cor.2:10b-13, 15-16, emphasis added)

"Jesus replied: [color:"red"] "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."[/color] (Matthew 22:37-40, emphasis added)

Jesus replied, [color:"red"] "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." [/color] (Matthew 22:29, emphasis added)

God HAS revealed Himself, and His will, to us and has given us His Word so that we CAN know Him through the Scriptures that He inspired to be written. "Let the learning begin" is the desire that the Holy Spirit gives us, and our changed hearts provide the "willingness" and the desire to "obey God."

God bless.

FH,

Hey... just wanted to mention that I am on vacation this week so that is why I have more time to post more than I can when I am working. I say this because there will be other times when I won't be able to reply as quickly and that it doesn't mean that I am not thinking about it... or that I am not going to respond. Also I know you have a real life too, so I am not going to take it personally if it takes you a bit to respond.

Now if a long time goes by like what happened when you started the other JJ thread... just bump this one and I will get it. LA bumps villagers for me that way... just says something like JJ thinking of you. Or I will say something like FH... yoo hoo over here.

It gets my attention because these 2 threads are in my favorite toggle threads on my home page and usually how I check posts. Bump me here and I'll respond... bump me elsewhere and who knows who'll respond...k? This is me attempting a POJA with you.

Okay back on task. This is the teacher in me... in the classroom. This is what I say to my students when we sidebar for something and need to get back on "task" whatever it is that we were doing prior to the sidebar. Trust me 10 year olds love to sidebar... "Ummm... Mrs.JJ, Shelly has gum... Mrs.JJ last night on American Idol... did you watch it?" and so on. Sometimes the sidebars are actually about curriculum... like reteaching something so that we can proceed with what we are learning then. And let us not forget the ever popular chair tip that results in a tipover that send the class into hyterics. Or the never ending stream of intercom interruptions... of send Johnny down with his stuff, he is leaving for the day. And of course we cannot forget the fire drills.

Okay so now really... back on task.



I have done this.

Hmmmm hadn't thought about it that way. Good to know.

See I think I had an expectation here... about what this is supposed to look like based on other people's experiences.


So would this be when you hear that little voice inside of you... sometimes it is like a nagging voice that says... it becomes an uncomfortable feeling sometimes. Like the opposite of peace. For example when I missed church because I had a migraine or when my DD had a high fever I didn't feel any of those nagging feelings. When I didn't go because I just didn't feel like going I got a lot of those feelings... like guilt so to speak. I knew I needed to go... then I chose not to go...then I got THAT feeling. My H and I have both got THAT feeling when we have chosen not to go just because we didn't feel like going. We have even shared that we were both feeling a guilty kind of feeling about not going.

I would imagine that that is the Holy Spirit in us... saying to us GO. Just because we didn't go act on that feelings didn't mean that we didn't have them because we did. It isn't just church either where I have had those feelings either. Happens with lots of choices.

Good to know... really really good to know because this is what I felt... still feel.

When I listen I get peace when I don't I get inner conflict. I don't always think the conflict is a bad thing either. Because sometimes through internal conflict I learn... grow. Does this make sense?

I guess I was just thinking that because others have described this life altering moment... that maybe I hadn't done it right... prayed hard enough... believed strong enough. But that isn't right either because I know that I have asked sincerely... deeply and with true conviction.

Okay... that makes total sense to me and would explain the deep sense of relief I feel in God's house. I think the fear happens when I start to worry that it can be taken from me and the peace comes from deeply knowing that it can't. This is why I asked about OSAS... because I think somewhere I learned that in fact our salvation can be taken from us. This would lead me to a state of constant state of worry that I am gonna mess this up... when in fact I cannot. We aren't to give to get. There isn't enough giving we can do that could ever GET (earn) that which has been freely given to us.

Maybe that is how that dasterdly Satan works on me... you are never going to be good enough... and then me buying back into that. Satan is not to be underestimated... he isn't stupid. Peace comes from knowing that God is, was, and will ALWAYS be more powerful. My gf from church told me awhile back, "I don't want to scare you and make you think that Satan is under ever seat... just know that he is out there... looking to find your weakness... and attack you there." Like if he can't get you one way he will try try try to find another way.

Kind of like when a kid realizes that the way that they have tried to manipulate to get what they want... that that particular manipuation strategy isn't working anymore then they look for another one. And staying in awareness that they will try another way. Good to know.

I think what you are saying here is that the Holy Spirit works through man to help us gain understanding. The Holy Spirit works through me to gain understanding but also leads me to others who are also instructed by Him... the teachers so to speak. So my own study is to get discernment so I can KNOW the difference.

Seems to me if you do the first... then all the rest will come as a result of doing the first. The choices I will make will come because of the first, not because they are what I think I *should* be doing but because they will be what I want to do... because that is Christ within me.

I do have the willingness and earnestness to learn and to obey God.

And from being here... I have learned something... that I no longer believe in "coincidence". I believe that there is a reason for everything. I believe God led me here for a reason. It is not coincidence that you happened along to my posting and it isn't chance that I happened along to you or to LA or to anyone here for that matter.

I don't know what all the lessons we are to get from each other are but I do believe we are to get lessons from one another. From LA, I learned that the lessons aren't only mine either. I used to think that I was the only one who was learning here... not true is it? When you teach someone does not your own lesson deepen?

Thank you for the time you choose to take... to help me in my spiritual journey FH.

God Bless you too.

Jilly, sorry for the delay in getting back to your questions about Eternal Security. Not only is a large topic, my time to organize a response has been limited lately. The next post will be LONG, but it will provide a lot of information on which to base subsequent questions. There is a lot more information, but this should suffice as a "beginning."

God bless.

Jilly, this a good place to begin our discussion of this subject.

There ARE many who believe and teach that a person who is a “born again” believer in Jesus Christ CAN lose their salvation. They base this belief on Man’s “Free Will,” that is, our ability to choose FOR or AGAINST anything, or in this context, to stand justified or unjustified before God.

This is very appealing and very understandable if viewed from a “human perspective,” because we DO have the ability to choose, to sin or not to sin, to obey or not to obey, to accept or reject the Bible as the inspired and inerrant Word of God, to accept or reject Jesus, etc., or so we want to believe.

And this is PRECISELY the same lie that Satan began our fall into his sin with, when he first tempted Eve. “YOU have the ability to choose. YOU ARE just like God and YOU can determine what is true and what is false for yourself. YOU CAN BE “just like God” and know right and wrong. YOU are NOT a created being, you are a god just like God, a sovereign unto yourself who can make your own choices apart from what God has said. You need to “understand” that God didn’t really MEAN what He said.

How does a “baby” learn? Does a baby learn all at once or over time? Who does the teaching and what is taught? (Remember this is the prime theory of our school system today and is the same way all who want to “mold” a society in “Man’s image” and not in “God’s image” approach the “information” that is fed to students as the “truth” and who denigrate anything that lends itself to “anyone” being higher than “Mankind”). Remember the Hitler Youth? Remember the Islamic indoctrination of their youth, to the point where they willingly strap on bombs and blow themselves up thinking the twisted teaching of Islam is right despite their denial of Jesus Christ?

The “ways” of Man are not the ways of God.
The “thoughts” of Man are not the thoughts of God.
God has chosen to reveal Himself to us, we did not choose to seek after God and make Him in our image.

When “human reason” conflicts with “God’s revelation,” God remains sovereign Lord despite what we may “choose” to believe.

When “human free will” conflicts with God’s teaching and commands, the result is not holiness, but sin.

When Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, it resulted in the total depravity of Mankind, not just a “partial” depravity wherein “some part of us remained untouched by sin and ‘partially good.’”

So that is our “natural state,” sinful by nature, totally corrupted by Sin, no desire to seek after God but to follow in the “sin steps” of Satan, beginning with the “chief sin of all sins,” PRIDE in self. Mankind was, and still is, incapable of “saving themselves.” And if that was the “end of the story,” our fate would be sealed and our eternal destination secured. “For the wages of sin IS death.”

So let’s begin our talk about “Eternal Security” in Christ (what is often referred to as Once Saved, Always Saved) with the Word of God and what God has told us.


“And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” (Romans 10:20, referring to Isaiah 65:1)


God chose us, we did not choose God.


“So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:5-6)


It is by God’s grace that we are chosen and it is by God’s will that we are saved through Jesus Christ wherein Christ’s righteousness is imputed to believers. So where does this idea that a born again believer CAN lose their salvation, against God’s will in the matter, come from? It comes, in my humble opinion, from misapplying Scripture. It comes from misapplying the “warnings” of God to people everywhere to NOT to “take Christ’s sacrifice for granted” and to use it as an “excuse” to continue sinning. We, as believers, DO NOT “get into heaven” by “association” or by “appropriating the name ‘Christian’.” In addition, fallen Man’s “condition” does not have any good, or righteousness, remaining after the Fall.


“The Word of God leaves no half life to man, but teaches, that, in regard to life and happiness, he has utterly perished. Paul, when he speaks of our redemption, says not that the half dead are cured (Eph. 2: 5, 30; 5: 14) but that those who were dead are raised up. He does not call upon the half dead to receive the illumination of Christ, but upon those who are asleep and buried. In the same way our Lord himself says, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God," (John 5: 25.) How can they presume to set up a flimsy allegory in opposition to so many clear statements? But be it that this allegory is good evidence, what can they extort out of it? Man is half dead, therefore there is some soundness in him. True! he has a mind capable of understanding, though incapable of attaining to heavenly and spiritual wisdom; he has some discernment of what is honourable; he has some sense of the Divinity, though he cannot reach the true knowledge of God. But to what do these amount? They certainly do not refute the doctrine of Augustine - a doctrine confirmed by the common suffrages even of the Schoolmen, that after the fall, the free gifts on which salvation depends were withdrawn, and natural gifts corrupted and defiled, (supra, chap. 2 sec. 2.) Let it stand, therefore, as an indubitable truth, which no engines can shake, that the mind of man is so entirely alienated from the righteousness of God that he cannot conceive, desire, or design any thing but what is wicked, distorted, foul, impure, and iniquitous; that his heart is so thoroughly envenomed by sin that it can breathe out nothing but corruption and rottenness; that if some men occasionally make a show of goodness, their mind is ever interwoven with hypocrisy and deceit, their soul inwardly bound with the fetters of wickedness.” (from Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin, underlining added for emphasis)

When this “state of Man” is applied to WHO is responsible for saving faith, it becomes clear that there is no “half-alive” part of Man that is willing to, much less able to, choose God, or Christ, independent of God first choosing the individual and changing their dead heart to one that is receptive to the truth of Jesus Christ and to God’s ONLY method of salvation. Only those who are “elected” by God are saved by God’s grace and mercy because it requires God to “act first” since we, as fallen, spiritually dead, people, are not just “unwilling” to receive God, but we are incapable of receiving God on our own. Might this sound “unfair” to our human reason? Quite possibly, just as it might seem “unfair” that the sin of Adam and the sin of Eve is passed on to every subsequent human being even thought we were not the ones actually in the Garden of Eden who then ate of the forbidden fruit in the first application of “Man’s free will ability to choose FOR God.”
What does the Word of God say about this seeming “unfairness” argument?

“What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,”

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:14-16)


Consider the following passage from Romans 11 as an example of this need for careful comparison of particular verses with the entirety of Scripture in order to understand what God is saying.

“Again I ask, Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. … If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature was grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree!” (Romans 11:11, 17-24)

“What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,” (Romans 11:7)

“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

“Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.” (Romans 11:25-36)


Let’s look again at John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion and how this “Free Will” applies with respect to God’s choosing us rather than us choosing God and in the application of Free Will to “doing good works that God has appointed unto us to do.”


“2. They add, that unless virtue and vice proceed from free choice, it is absurd either to punish man or reward him. Although this argument is taken from Aristotle, I admit that it is also used by Chrysostom and Jerome. Jerome, however, does not disguise that it was familiar to the Pelagians. He even quotes their words, "If grace acts in us, grace, and not we who do the work, will be crowned," (Heron. in Ep. ad Ctesiphont. et Dialog.

1) With regard to punishment, I answer, that it is properly inflicted on those by whom the guilt is contracted. What matters it whether you sin with a free or an enslaved judgement, so long as you sin voluntarily, especially when man is proved to be a sinner because he is under the bondage of sin? In regard to the rewards of righteousness, is there any great absurdity in acknowledging that they depend on the kindness of God rather than our own merits? How often do we meet in Augustine with this expression, - "God crowns not our merits but his own gifts; and the name of reward is given not to what is due to our merits, but to the recompense of grace previously bestowed?" Some seem to think there is acuteness in the remark, that there is no place at all for the mind, if good works do not spring from free will as their proper source; but in thinking this so very unreasonable they are widely mistaken. Augustine does not hesitate uniformly to describe as necessary the very thing which they count it impious to acknowledge. Thus he asks, "What is human merit? He who came to bestow not due recompense but free grace, though himself free from sin, and the giver of freedom, found all men sinners," (Augustin. in Psal. 31.)

Again, "If you are to receive your due, you must be punished. What then is done? God has not rendered you due punishment, but bestows upon you unmerited grace. If you wish to be an alien from grace, boast your merits," (in Psal. 70.) Again, "You are nothing in yourself, sin is yours, merit God's. Punishment is your due; and when the reward shall come, God shall crown his own gifts, not your merits," (Ep. 52.) To the same effect he elsewhere says, (De Verb. Apostol. Serm. 15,) that grace is not of merit, but merit of grace. And shortly after he concludes, that God by his gifts anticipates all our merit, that he may thereby manifest his own merit, and give what is absolutely free, because he sees nothing in us that can be a ground of salvation. But why extend the list of quotations, when similar sentiments are ever and anon recurring in his works? The abettors of this error would see a still better refutation of it, if they would attend to the source from which the apostle derives the glory of the saints, - "Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified," (Rom. 8: 30.)

On what ground, then, the apostle being judge, (2 Tim. 4: 8,) are believers crowned? Because by the mercy of God, not their own exertions, they are predestinated, called, and justified. Away, then, with the vain fear, that unless free will stand, there will no longer be any merit! It is most foolish to take alarm, and recoil from that which Scripture inculcates. "If thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it?" (1 Cor. 4: 7.) You see how every thing is denied to free will, for the very purpose of leaving no room for merit. And yet, as the beneficence and liberality of God are manifold and inexhaustible, the grace which he bestows upon us, inasmuch as he makes it our own, he recompenses as if the virtuous acts were our own.

3. But it is added, in terms which seem to be borrowed from Chrysostom, (Homil. 22, in Genes.,) that if our will possesses not the power of choosing good or evil, all who are partakers of the same nature must be alike good or alike bad. A sentiment akin to this occurs in the work De Vocatione Gentium, (lib. 4 c. 4,) usually attributed to Ambrose, in which it is argued, that no one would ever decline from faith, did not the grace of God leave us in a mutable state. It is strange that such men should have so blundered. How did it fail to occur to Chrysostom, that it is divine election which distinguishes among men? We have not the least hesitation to admit what Paul strenuously maintains, that all, without exception, are depraved and given over to wickedness; but at the same time we add, that through the mercy of God all do not continue in wickedness. Therefore, while we all labour naturally under the same disease, those only recover health to whom the Lord is pleased to put forth his healing hand. The others whom, in just judgement, he passes over, pine and rot away till they are consumed. And this is the only reason why some persevere to the end, and others, after beginning their course, fall away. Perseverance is the gift of God, which he does not lavish promiscuously on all, but imparts to whom he pleases. If it is asked how the difference arises - why some steadily persevere, and others prove deficient in steadfastness, we can give no other reason than that the Lord, by his mighty power, strengthens and sustains the former, so that they perish not, while he does not furnish the same assistance to the latter, but leaves them to be monuments of instability.” (emphasis added)

What, then, does all this have to do with Eternal Security for a born again believer?

It is, simply, that our salvation does NOT rest in our hands, but it rests in God’s hands.

How can we KNOW that our salvation is assured and cannot be lost should we fall into sin after we have been saved?

We have the promise of God himself through the testimony of His Word, the Scriptures.

Let’s look at a few of those promises and truths that God has revealed to us.

“Father, the time has come, Glorify your Son, that your Son may Glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.” (John 17:1b-2, emphasis added)

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. For they were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed you word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.” (John 17:6-7, emphasis added)

“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name – the name you gave me – so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” (John 17:11b-12, emphasis added)

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24, emphasis added)

“Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:25-30, emphasis added)

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:37-40, emphasis added)

“Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:17-20)

“Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” (Hebrews 10:24-28, emphasis added)

“The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
“This is the covenant I make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.” (Hebrews 10:15-18, emphasis added)

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” (Hebrews 6:4-6, emphasis added)

The writer of Hebrews “sums up” the issue of Eternal Security (sometimes known as “Once Saved, Always Saved”) with this “hypothetical situation.” IF IT WERE POSSIBLE for a born again believer to “fall away,” that is, to lose their salvation in Christ, it would then be IMPOSSIBLE for them to ever be brought back to a saving faith. In essence, they would be “given over” to Satan, and like Satan and his angels, have NO HOPE of redemption. If a sin of any kind, let’s say what is sometimes referred to as a “Moral Sin,” were to be committed, and the commission of that sin resulted in someone who is born again losing their salvation, NO amount of repentance, penance, prayers, etc. would have any effect on “regaining their salvation,” because it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do so and God would NOT forgive their sin “a second time.” Therefore, when combined with Christ’s own statements about “not losing anyone who the Father has given him (the Elect),” it is CLEAR that a believer is maintained in the hand of God BY the will and power of God and NOT by the will or power of any created being, including the “free will” of the believer.



The following is from Christopher Ness, one section among a larger treatise. It speaks directly to this issue of “Free Will” and the ability, or lack of ability, of a fallen person to “choose God” on his/her own, independent of God. If further speaks to the issue of being able, or unable, to lose one’s salvation through a later rejection, because the power of being saved or unsaved rests with God, not with the created beings on whom he chooses to show his grace and mercy.


Of Free Will and Conversion
CHRISTOPHER NESS

The Arminians not only deny election to be an eternal, peculiar, unconditional, and irreversible act of God; and assert that Christ died equally and indiscriminately for every individual of mankind; for them that perish no less than for them that are saved; but they also aver that saving grace is tendered to the acceptance of every man; which he may or may not receive, just as he pleases. That the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit in conversion is not invincible but is suspended, or depends for its efficacy on the will of man. That notwithstanding Christ's death, it was possible (in respect of free-will) that all should perish; that now, by His death for all, true grace is given to all; which they may improve, hold fast, and be saved; or despise, neglect, cast away, and be lost!
The will of man is naturally a self-determining power and principle, but hath since the Fall the strong bias of sin upon it. Freedom is radically and originally in the will, not in the understanding; and it is an essential property of it, that it cannot be compelled by any created external agent, in its own free choice. Now it is no wonder, if many mistakes arise about this great engine of the Almighty, since the soul knows not itself but by reflection; and though we know its qualities and operations, yet we know not its essence.

Man is considered in a fourfold state:

1. The state of creation, therein he had free-will either to good or evil, but was necessitated to neither.

2. The state of degeneration, wherein he is a servant to sin, and necessitated to evil.

3. The state of regeneration, wherein he is freed from the slavery and dominion of sin, and from the love of sin, though not at present, from the inbred corruptions and in being of it.

4. The state of glorification, wherein man is both freely and necessarily good, perfect, and happy. In the first estate, man is free; in the second, a slave; in the third, set free; and in the fourth, having a glorious liberty.
The controversy is concerning the second state, wherein we say, that man is under a necessity of sinning, yet free from coercion; he is free to evil, but not to good; which appears by the following arguments:

1. That there is no free-will to good in the fallen estate, is proved from the Fall itself; if man, in the Fall, lost his free-will to good, then it cannot be found in the fallen estate.

The Fall implies: The loss of that original righteousness and perfection wherein man was created. If the other faculties of the soul became depraved, and were stripped of their primitive lustre by the Fall, then must the will also be a sharer in that depravation. Now the depravity of the will is proved by considering the good it hath lost, and the evil it hath gained, through Adam's sin. The good it has lost is sixfold: power, order, stability, prudence, obedience, liberty. The evil it hath gained is a threefold rebellion: (a.) Against the counsel of the mind. (b.) Against the controls of conscience. (c.) Against the commands of God. This king of the Isle of Man (the will), when he come first out of God's mint, was a curious silver-piece, and shone most gloriously; but now, being fallen among thieves, is robbed of all, hath ashes for beauty, and is a tyrant upon a dunghill; yea, is free from righteousness, but a very slave to sin (Ro 6:17-20). Before the Fall, the will had liberty both to good or evil, to do or not to do; but since the Fall, the will is evil, only evil, and continually evil (Ge 6:5). The whole heart now is evil extensively, only evil intensively, and continually evil protensively.

2. If conversion be a new creation, then fallen man hath not a free- will to good.

A convert is called a "new creature," or a "new creation" in Ga 6:15, and 2Co 5:17. Creation is a production of something out of nothing; but if there be a free-will to do good in man before conversion, then is there something of its own nature spiritually good in unconverted man towards the work of conversion; so can it not be called a new creature. Sure I am every experienced soul finds the contrary in that work; the whole frame is out of frame in the unconverted state and man is a confused chaos, a vast emptiness, when this creating power comes upon him. Yea, a greater power is required to recreate this little world than at first to create the greater; for in this, though there be no pre-existing good matter, yet is there resisting evil matter. The creation of the great world was the work of God's Word (Ps 33:6); of His fingers (Ps 8:3); or of His hands (Ps 102:25). But to restore (the little world) man, requires God's arm (Lu 1:51); nay, Christ set His sides to it (Lu 22:44); it cost Him tears and agony and blood. New qualities and operations are created in us; the will to will well, and the power to do well, are ascribed to this creating almighty power in the effectual conversion of souls to God. "It is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Php 2:13).

3. If conversion be a new-begetting, or generation, then fallen man hath no free-will to good.

Generation is the motion to a being, and a proceeding into a being; this presupposes that there is no being before; for we are not, we are nothing before we be begotten; as it holds true in generation, so in regeneration: "Of His own will begat He us" (Jas 1:18). It is not said that God begat us of our wills (yet this should be said were there in us a free-will to good) but of God's will; and till then we are not (1Co 1:28).

Unconverted men are nothing creatures.

(a.) A natural nothing; for what is the great womb whence all things come but nothing?

(b.) A moral nothing; we are morally worse than nothing, that is miserable; "Man is vanity," or as in Hebrew, Adam is Abel, that is, vanity (Ps 39:5); "and a lie" (Ps 62:9). "The heart of the wicked is little worth" (Pr 10:20); neither for use nor service; as a shadow is not useful for war, nor a statue for prayer, so fallen man is unfit for the service of God, for his best actions are sin. All this shows we are nothing, and have not a free-will to good, till begotten of God.

4. If conversion be a new birth, then fallen man hath not a free-will to good.

We cannot have a birth of ourselves; a babe cannot be born of itself; nothing can have its original from itself, for it would then be before and after itself; it would be and would not be, at the same time. Thus are we taught to look up above ourselves for our new birth. "Except a man be born again," or from above (Joh 3:3). We are born, not of the flesh, "but of the Spirit" (Joh 3:6). Our first birth is of the earth, earthy; our second birth is from the Lord, Heavenly; "Born of God" (1Jo 3:9).

5. If conversion be a quickening of one that is dead in sin, then fallen man hath no free-will to good.

This is proved from Eph 2:1: "You hath He quickened who were dead" etc. He doth not say half dead, as the man was that fell among thieves (Lu 10:30); but wholly dead, as to spiritual life. There is no manner of good in us (Ro 7:18). And "we are not sufficient of ourselves to think" a good thought till Christ quickens us (2Co 3:5). "Without Him we can do nothing" (Joh 15:5). From Him is our fruit found (Ho 14:8); both the bud of good desires, the blossom of good purposes, and the fruit of good actions. Aaron's rod (a dry stick without a root) is a fit emblem; it budded, blossomed, and brought forth almonds; this was not done by any inward principle or power of nature, but it was solely and wholly the work of God. So Ezekiel's dry bones were made to live; nothing of that life was from themselves, but all from God. Thus it is in this spiritual life; we can contribute nothing by which to dispose ourselves to will that which is truly good; we cannot so much as call Christ Lord, but by the Spirit (1Co 12:3). If there be no life, but through union with Christ, then till we be engrafted into that blessed and bleeding vine we cannot bring forth fruit unto God. And it is not any natural power or principle in us that can engraft us into Christ, for faith is the engrafting grace, and that is "the gift of God" (Eph 2:8), the grace by which the just live (Hab 2:4), and by which Christ dwells in our hearts (Eph 3:17). Till then we are dead, and have no free-will to good.

6. If regeneration, or recovery from the state of degeneration, be a resurrection, then fallen man hath no free-will to good.

That regeneration is a resurrection is manifest from the following scriptures: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (Joh 5:25). "When we were dead in sins, (He) hath quickened us together with Christ" and "hath raised us up" etc. (Eph 2:5,6). It requires as much power to raise, quicken, and make alive a sinner dead in trespasses and sins, as to raise Christ from the dead (Eph 1:19,20). To raise up Christ, and to work faith in us, requires "the exceeding greatness of His power" (Eph 1:19). Here are three gradations: power, greatness of power, and as if that were too little, the apostle adds, "according to the working of His mighty power." The original words imply not only a working, but an effectual force in working; such strength as in the arms of valiant men who can do great exploits. Nay more, it is beyond all this, it implies a power that can do all things, an omnipotent power. Surely, had there been an internal principle in us toward this great work, or any free-will in us to good, Paul would not have used those gradations, nor such emphatical, significant expressions. This work of regeneration would not then have required the effectual, forcible power of the valiant arm of God; even such a power as raised up Christ from the dead, by which He was declared to be the Son of God (Ro 1:4).

7. If moral persuasion be altogether insufficient of itself to recover man from his fallen state, then fallen man hath no free-will to do good.

If moral persuasion could recover man, then faith would be an easy work, and not require such mighty power as has just been proved. Christ did more to the raising of Lazarus than morally persuade him to come out of the grave; when Christ said, "Lazarus, come forth" (Joh 11:43) a mighty power went along with the command, which gave effect thereto. It is not enough to persuade a prisoner to come forth, but his chains must be struck off, and the prison doors must be opened (Ac 12:6,7,10); and man is more than a mere prisoner; he is dead in sin, so must have a quickening grace; which moral persuasion can never accomplish.

8. If Christ be All in all (Col 3:11), in matters of salvation, then man is nothing at all as to that work, and hath not in himself a free-will to good.

(a.) Christ's work is to bore the ear, which before is stopped like the deaf adder's to the voice of the charmer (Ps 58:4,5). Christ gives the understanding ear; "He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity" (Job 36:10). See Ps 40:6, and Isa 50:4, which passages, although spoken of Christ, hold good concerning His people.

(b.) Christ opens not only the ear, but the heart also (Ac 16:14). The Lord opened the heart of Lydia, not she her own heart; which she might have done had she a free-will to good. The key of the heart hangs at Christ's girdle. "He that openeth and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Re 3:7). Moral persuasion will never prove effectual to open the heart of man.

(c.) Besides Christ there is no Saviour (Isa 43:11; Ho 13:4); but free-will Arminianism makes man a co-saviour with Christ; as if there was a halving of it between the grace of Christ and the will of man, and the latter dividing the spoil with the former; yea, deserving the greater share: for if Christ be only a monitor, and persuade to good, then man's own will is the principal author of its own goodness; and he makes himself to differ from others, and hath something, that he received not at conversion, of which to boast before God. "Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" (1Co 4:7).

Persuasion leaves the admonished will to its own indifferency, not changing it at all; so man becomes his own saviour, at least Christ is not the only Saviour; how then is Christ All in all?

9. If fallen man must be drawn to goodness, then hath he no free-will to good.

That moral persuasion will not bring a soul to Christ; that man cannot come himself, but must be drawn, is proved from Joh 6:44: "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him." Drawing is a bringing of anything out of its course and channel by an influence from without, and not from an innate power or principle from within. In So 1:4, it is not said lead, but "draw;" in drawing there is less will and more power than in leading; and though God draws us strongly, yet He doth it sweetly. As we are drawn, we have not a free-will to good, else man fell in his understanding only, not in his will; yet are we volunteers (Ps 110:3), a willing people; not that Christ finds us so, but makes us so "in the day of His power," and when He speaks to us with a strong hand (Isa 8:11). We are naturally haters of God, and at enmity with Him (Ro 1:30; 8:7), but the Spirit gives a new power to the soul, and then acts and influences that power to good; so draws a God-hater to love Him. This is more than a bare persuasion to a stone to be warm, for God takes away the "heart of stone," and gives a "heart of flesh" (Eze 36:26). God the Spirit gives the inclination to come, and the very power of coming to Christ; and Christ finds nothing that is good in us (Ro 7:18).

10. If the soul of man be passive in effectual calling, then is there in fallen man no free-will to good.
The spirit of grace is compared to a precious liquor that is infused; and the called and chosen of God are styled vessels of mercy. "I will pour upon the house of David . . . the spirit of grace" etc. (Zec 12:10); "the vessels of mercy prepared unto glory" (Ro 9:23). Now a vessel is a passive receiver of liquor poured into it. "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost" (Ro 5:5); that is, poured out and infused into God's vessels of mercy. The atmosphere is passive when it receives light, and Adam's body was passive when God inspired it with life; though it was formed and organized, yet was it lifeless and breathless (Ge 2:7). So the will of man (in respect of this first reception of grace) hath neither concurrence nor cooperation active; the Lord is alone in that work. Apart from the influences of Divine grace, it is a very he11 to any to be brought from he11; though it be an he11 to us to stay after God hath opened our eyes and changed our hearts. Corrupt nature neither can nor will contribute anything to destroy its own corruptions. In the first work, the will moveth not itself, but is moved by God. The will, as a creature, must obey its Creator; yet as a sinful depraved will, it obeys not willingly till "made willing" (Ps 110:3). Man, and the will of man, while in an unregenerate state, may be compared to the tied-up colt in Mr 11:2 (tied and bound with sin's chain), but when "the Lord hath need of him," and the "day of His power" is come, the sinner must then be loosed and let go.

11. To deny grace, irresistible, special grace in conversion, is abominable; and the doctrine of free-will is a denial of this.

The advocates for free-will say, "If a man improves his naturals, God is bound to give him spirituals." What is this but turning grace into debt? And to say that the reason why one believes and another does not arises from the co-operation of the free-will of him that believeth, is to deny special irresistible grace as peculiar to the elect. All which is contrary to these scriptures: Joh 6:37,45; Ro 8:14; 1Co 1:23,24; 1Jo 4:13, and very many others. God's dispensations towards His people are all of free grace. He quickens whom He will (Joh 5:21). The heart of one sinner is caused to melt as wax before the fire and receive God's seal, while the heart of another remains as immovable as marble, and as the rock that cannot be shaken; this is the work of God's gracious dispensation. "He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth" (Ro 9:18). The Spirit blows where it listeth (Joh 3:8). God may drop in grace, even with the first breathings of life, and regenerate a babe as soon as it be brought forth; as John Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb (Lu 1:15). And others He may cast into the womb of the new birth when in the very act of dropping out of the world, at the eleventh, yea, at the twelfth hour, as the thief on the cross. Oh, who can order the ways of grace, and set bounds to the spirit of God in its breathings on man!

12. Free-will brings with it so many absurdities that it cannot be received.

(a.) It makes man the cause of his own salvation.
(b.) It puts grace into man's power, not man's will under the power of grace.
(c.) It robs God of the honour of making one to differ from another, and ascribes it to man.
(d.) It allows man a liberty of boasting to God, saying, "God, I thank Thee that Thou gavest me power to will (yet Thou gavest that to Judas as well as me), but I thank myself for the act of willingness, since I receive from Thee no more than Judas did."
(e.) It exempts the creature from the power of God, as if man, spider-like, could spin a thread out of his own bowels whereon to climb to Heaven.
(f.) It maketh man the cause why God willeth this or that; so God must attend on the will of man, and not be infallible in His decrees, nor working all things according to the counsel of His own will (Eph 1:11 Ps 115:3).
(g.) Then the apostle James lied in saying "every good gift" is from God (Jas 1:17); and Paul also was mistaken in Ro 9:11. He should have said, "It is of man that willeth and runneth," and not, "Of God that showeth mercy."


Objections in Favour of Free-Will Answered

Objection 1. There is a law written in the hearts of fallen mankind (Ro 2:15).

Answer 1. This is conscience bearing witness of right and wrong (see the same verse, Ro 2:15). Impotency is in the will.

2. Adam begat a son "in his own image" (Ge 5:3), not only as a man, but a sinner. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" (Joh 3:6). "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one" (Job 14:4). While we are Christless we are without strength (Ro 5:6).

3. The devils have more light than men, yet are they altogether dead in sin, though they believe and tremble (Jas 2:19), and though they confess Christ (Lu 4:34; Mr 1:24). They sin freely, yet cannot avoid it, but must sin.
Objection 2. Why is man blamed for resisting the Spirit, if there is no free-will (Ac 7:51; Mt 23:37).

Answer 1. They resisted the preaching of the Gospel (which is the outward means of grace) by persecuting the ministers of it. The word "resist" in that passage of Scripture signifies a rushing against, and falling upon in a rude and hostile manner, and fitly expresses their ill- treatment of Christ and His ministers by falling upon them and putting them to death. That is the resistance here particularly designed; see also Ac 7:52. The inward work of the Spirit cannot be resisted; as the creature can neither hinder nor further his own creation, nor the dead their own resurrection, so neither can fallen man hinder or further his conversion.

2. Mt 23:37. This scripture, so common in the mouths and so frequently found in the writings of Arminians, so readily produced by them on almost every occasion against the doctrines of grace — this scripture, taken in its context, will advantage them nothing. "How often would I have gathered," etc., "but ye would not." This gathering does not design a gathering of Jews to Christ internally, by the Spirit and grace of God; but a gathering of them externally, to hear Him preach, so that they might be brought to an assent unto Him as the Messiah.
This reception of Christ would not have been saving faith, but it would have preserved them from that temporal ruin threatened in the following verse (Mt 23:38). This scripture therefore, as Ac 7:51, only respects a resistance to Christ's outward ministry. Jerusalem, i.e., her rulers, received Him not (Joh 7:48), therefore their house is to be desolated (Mt 23:38); the city is one thing and her children another. Here is temporal destruction threatened for neglecting temporal visitations (Lu 19:44). Nationally considered, Jerusalem would have been preserved in its peace had the people, upon the rational opportunity afforded them for receiving the Messiah, accepted Christ under that character.

Objection 3. Why doth God say, "What could I do more to My vineyard?" (Isa 5:4).

Answer 1. This is not spoken of grace, that God gives to particular men peculiarly; but of great things done for Israel as a nation (Ps 147:19-20). God dealt not so with other nations. "These words are part of a parable, representing the state and condition of the people of the Jews; and the design of it is to show the ingratitude of the Jews in the midst of many favours bestowed on them, and the patience and long-suffering of God towards them, and to vindicate His justice in their ruin as a nation" (Dr. John Gill).

2. God did enough in making man upright, and if he hath lost his uprightness, he must thank himself, and not blame God, who is not bound to restore it. Grace is the Lord's own; he giveth it to whom He will.

Objection 4. Man is a rational creature; his will cannot be determined by anything from without, it being a self-determining principle.

Answer 1. Irresistible grace takes not away that natural liberty which the will hath by creation, but the depravity of it only; knocking off its fetters, but not destroying its nature. We never enjoy our will so much as when God's will overrules ours. If man can determine his own will, and destroy the liberty of it, then much more God who is the maker of it.

2. To will is from nature, to will well is from grace; spiritual fruit must spring from a spiritual root.

"Not all the outward forms on earth,
Nor rites that God hath given,
Not will of man, nor blood, nor birth,
Can raise a soul to Heaven.
The sovereign will of God alone,
Creates us heirs of grace;
Both in the image of His Son,
A new peculiar race.
Thus quicken'd souls awake and rise
From the long sleep of death;
On Heavenly things they fix their eyes,
And praise employs their breath."

Jilly, I am not sure if you had a chance to read what I wrote previously about the Moral Law (10 Commandments) vs. the Ceremonial Law (the Law of Moses, the system of sacrifices, etc.), and all the scripture references are above, but to recap:

The two laws were very clearly different. The 10 commandments were places inside the Ark of the Covenant, the ceremonial laws were placed in a pocket on the side. The 10 commandments were called the Testimony, the ceremonial law was called the law of ordinances, or the law of Moses. The Sabbath commandment, specifically, points back to Creation. The ceremonial law pointed forward to the death of Christ. The 10 commandments were written with the finger of God. The ceremonial law was given verbally by God to Moses, who wrote it out later.

When Paul spoke of a law being nailed to the cross, he said it was the "handwriting of ordinances, which was against us". The only handwriting of ordinances was the law of Moses, and it was done away with at the cross, because after Christ there was no more need of a sacrifice to remind us of a coming Messiah.

It is true that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. But that doesn't mean not to keep it; it means to keep it as a joy, and not as a burden. If any part of the Sabbath feels like a burden, that is a good clue to examine how we are keeping it. Joy, rest, peace, fellowship, not a yoke of bondage.

In fact, every one of the 10 commandments is intended to protect us, and draw us closer to God. We keep them only by His power and grace.

We obey Him because we are saved, and because we love Him.

You had other specific questions about the nuts and bolts of ideal Sabbath-keeping, which I am in the process of answering.

God bless,
Neak

JJ, still around?

I do hope so. I have a question for her.

JJ you said :

This is the teacher in me... in the classroom

I assume from this you are a teacher.

Say a child in your class asks you a question about what is right and wrong in marriage, what do you tell her ?

That marriage should be forever until you decide you find somebody better, in which case you can go live with them,"marry" them in law and as long as you feel forgiven by God all is fine ?

If you would NOT advise the child that, why not ?

If you WOULD advise a child that, don't you think the parents of the children you teach should know this ? I'd sure as heck like to know if a teacher of my children was advising that affairs are just hunky dory as long as you marry your affair partner and find religion.

I know you asked this question of Jilly, but please allow me to give my thoughts...

You know, I DO feel forgiven by God...no, maybe I don't "feel" the forgiveness, but in my head, I know that I AM forgiven by God. It is not required of me to FEEL forgiven. It is required of me to ACCEPT that I am.

But being forgiven by God is not akin to having all the consequences of my sin wiped away. They are NOT. And in NO WAY do I think that forgiveness for sin would EVER allow me to do whatever I please!

God often uses the consequences of our sin to draw us nearer to Him. That, IMHO, is the ONLY way we can be convicted of our sin and repent. If there were no consequences, then we would not NEED God, and we would not be inclined to turn from our sinful way.

The consequences will always be before us....there is no getting out of them as Jilly full well knows, as any FWS knows. If not for God, and the HOPE he provides us when he says our sins will be forever forgotten, the consequences of our sin would completely destroy us. If not for that, what would be the point of going on living?

A large part of myself DIED because of my sin. I will be carrying that cross for the rest of my life, even though I DID what was "right" in God's eyes, even though I did return to my marriage and turn from adultery.

Only when Christ returns will I be freed from that debt, and not before. It is the HOPE of that which allows me to live in freedom from sin, but not freedom from consequences.

Is it really right to destroy MORE lives just because you think it would get you "right" in God's eyes? Do the ends justify the means here?

Is it "ok" to commit more sin(divorce current spouse) to get into a position where you are NOT in (supposed) sin any longer(remarry former spouse)?


Somehow that does not seem desirable.

FH,

Yep, sorry I haven't responded... I have read your last post several times... and it's a lot to take in.

Let me see if I got the basic ideas right and then we can go from there. I had to read and reread and think about it because after the first couple reads I still wasn't sure I understood it.

So, I'll do my best.

We don't come to God or choose God... He has already choosen us... from the beginning. We are sinful by our very nature... born into so to speak since the original sin of Adam and Eve. Many want us to believe in the idea that believe we CAN lose our salvation through the context of Free Will.

Satan tried to convince Adam and Eve that they were they same as GOD... they were also Gods not just created beings.

This part makes sense to me.

So does this mean that people are in conflict with God the result is sin?

Everyone is full of sin as is the world since the fall of man?

We are still saved by belief and receipt of the gift of the cross because we aren't capable of ever being sinless.

SO eternal security cannot be taken from us because we don't "earn" it. We never could.

I believe this IS true.

If we then go to some merit system we do not understand the true meaning of grace.

So are you saying that you think that it is a misapplication where man has interpreted it to mean that you better be good or else... and if you are bad (sinning) then you are taking this gift for granted... stop using this gift as an excuse to keep sinning. Here the thing for me... I was raised to believe (Neak if I got this part wrong feel free to correct me because I very well could have misunderstood this as a young person) that all of our sins were being recorded in a book of judgement. Also our good deeds were being recorded. At some point this book would be sealed and there would be nothing else you could do... the fate of your salvation was then sealed.

I lived in constant fear that what if I got caught on a day that I had been naughty... and that was the day the book was sealed. So I tried to be good all the time but I just wasn't. By the time I was in my teens and acting out... it got to a point where I figured it was hopeless... cause I was just never going to be able to be that good.

I know that can't be right though... because we all still sin... and unless the belief is that you right your wrongs through works... I don't know.

This is why when I came back I felt a huge relief that it was by grace that we are saved.

But then there was the thought that... we are to go and sin no more. Well... I am still sinning. I make better choices but I can't make it one day without sinning in some way... even if it is just in my heart which I do believe is really according to scripture is sinning too.

FH don't you still sin too? Don't we all? We can't stop because we aren't God. They couldn't stop then... before the crucifixtion... which is why Jesus came. He was the only one who could and that is because He was of the Father not of man. So He took the weight of the worlds sins.

We could not choose Him if He hadn't first chosen us. Reminds me of that old hymn..

"Oh how I love Jesus,
Oh, how I love Jesus,
Oh, how I love Jesus,
Because He FIRST loved me."

Okay a question ... an aside sort of... Why did sin first occur? Did God already know ahead of time that Satan was going to tempt Adam and Eve and they were going to fall? Seems to me they already had "free will" otherwise they wouldn't have eaten the fruit... not like they couldn't have said no... were told not to do it. Yes, they were made in God's image as are we all... but they were not GOD. If they were they wouldn't have sinned. Why did God create them if He already knew they would fall? Seems to me He had a purpose... in everything He has done.

Maybe I am confused about the term "born again". To me this would suggest that you are born again... when you accept the gift that you are never going to be able to be without sin and God has always known this. That you are born again by faith in grace... and that grace is enough. There is no other way. Is this sort of it?

This would seem to me to say that we are grafted in through BELIEF... in grace. Not in any work we can do. The only way to become ungrafted would be to stop believing. Is this correct?

That God is kind and stern. Not that he is so kind that there are no consequences for our sin... because there are I believe. But it seems the only sin to which one could not be forgiven would be in not believing.

Okay so now this question... say someone is raised a believer... then at some point in their life they leave the church... however in their heart they never stop truly believing. Yes, they are wayward and sinning... but they still believe. What happens to this person? Also seems to me that there could be some sitting right there next to you in church who don't really believe... but they faithfully go because that is what they have done all their lives. What about this person?

Then there are people like me and you who were raised in faith and believed... then turned away and then came back. What if we had not come back? What then? We were saved before... yes? Were we still saved even when we turned away? Or would we have gone to ******? Do you see where I am confused here?

Even when I turned away from my faith... tried hard to really stop believing in God... I might have tried to stop but way down deep FH I could never really stop believing. Would this be because I was already chosen... and it wasn't about me chosing... God had already chosen me. I rebelled against that but it didn't change that He had chosen me... all of us really.

But what about someone who never learns of Jesus? Someone who is raised Budhist or Daoist or some other non Christian religion? What if they are never exposed to Christ but believe in God in the way that they have been raised? Are they not chosen? Or are they also chosen? What if this is all they have ever learned? Surely God loves them too.

In the Bible God says... for I your God am a jealous God. Which would seem to be where the whole have no other Gods before me would come from... but what if someone ever only knows of another God?

Let me try to back up... and forgive my lack of good historical knowledge here. I believe in creation and by that belief alone it would suggest to me that there were no other Gods before creation. I have no idea if there were ever any universes prior to ours... can't know I don't have a time machine that allows me to travel back before our world was created. When I think of creation I think of our Earth being created... the universe we live in so I will only approach it from that standpoint.

Okay so on that premise, God creates the world. Adam and Eve sin and are thrown out of the Garden of Eden (was that part of Heaven? or on Earth?) and sends them out... wherever "out" is and then throughout Genesis the rest of their story is told. (okay I looked further and found the Garden or Eden was like living in Heaven but it wasn't Heaven.)

I have a question here which I am just going to ask and I know it is gross but I am still going to ask because I am curious. I get how Adam and Eve procreated and had Cain, Abel, and Seth. It also says they had numerous other children.

Later it speaks of Cain laying with his wife... if there was only Adam and Eve and then their kids how did Cain or any of the first descendents of Adam and Eve get wives? Were they marrying their sisters and brothers and having kids with them? Sorry for this aside but I have always wondered about that... because later in Leviticus 18 it lists all the unlawful sexual relations... such as don't have sex with your mother, or your father's wife (I believe they had multiple wives in the OT? so this would seem to be a stepmother as well??)

Do not have sex with your father's sister or your mother's sister. (which would be your aunt?)
Don't have sex with your sister (again seems they had multiple wives and or husbands because here it further states that not with your father's daughter or your mother's daughter even if you didn't grow up in the same home together.)

Do not have sex with your son or daughter's daughter (which would be your grandchild?)

Do not have sex with your father's brother's wife.(okay this would be your aunt.)

Don't have sex with your son's wife. (your daughter in law)

Do not have sex with your brother's wife. (your sister in law)

Don't have sex with a woman and also her daughter, her son's daughter or her daughther's daughter. They are close relatives and this is wickedness.

Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife (so again suggesting they had multiple marriages then) while your wife is living.

Do not have sex with a woman who is unclean during her period.

Do not have sex with your neighbor's wife... and defile yourself.

Don't sacrifice your children.

Don't have sex with a man if you are a man. It doesn't mention woman with women here specifically but I am guessing that was surely implied. (so homosexuality)

Do not have sex with an animal or present a woman to have sex with an animal. (Beastiality correct?)This is perversion.

These laws from what I can ascertain were given to the Israelites... when they moved from one idol infested country (Egypt) into another Canaan (was this country from Caan brother of Abel?) And that they also had contact with other cultures such as Moab. As they formed a new culture God told them to leave all aspects of their pagan ways behind. He warned them that it would be easy for them to slip into the pagan (pagan meaning either believing in polythesim or little or no religion and following the sensual pleasures or material good... heathens who would be anyone who doesn't acknowledge the God of the Bible.)

So back to what I was asking... did they procreate initially with family members because there were no other people or had God put other people on Earth then after Adam and Eve. I looked further and it says that Cain was afraid after he murdered Abel of other people. If there were only the four of them... it doesn't seem as though it is his mother and dad he is afraid of. He leaves and goes elsewhere. It says that Cain's wife may have been his sister or a niece. It also says that at that time the human race was still pure.... and there was no fear of side effects of marrying relatives. So this to me at least on some level would suggest that everyone is an offspring of Adam and Eve? Is this correct?

So I get that they lived people lived hundreds of years back then (this is literal yes?) so that is how the earth was eventually populated and other nations formed. Descendants of Adam and Eve left wherever Adam and Eve were originally and started other cities?

And the OT laws regarding sexuality... are for the most part what is still in many ways law today. I don't just mean God's law... it is law law too. Incest and such is against the law.

So I guess I answered that question already... it was through incestous relations that procreation first occured but it wasn't considered incestous initially and later those laws came into effect.

Back to OSAS or eternal security.

This would seem to be saying that everyone must first become disobedient in order to receive mercy. For God has bound all men over to disobedience (sin?) so that he may have mercy on the ALL. This would seem to me to be saying HE choose every single person. Not only some were preselected but ALL were. But was this His plan from the beginning? I would think that God being all knowing and all powerful would have already known Adam and Eve were going to sin. And also what would transpire afterwards. Which would seem that his plan all along would have been to send His son to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. But why?

If He knew from the get go that we could not be without sin... why did He create man? I don't ask this lightly or with any disrespect. Maybe it is not for us to know why. We aren't God so His reasons may not make sense to us in our less than infinate wisdom.

This would seem to indicate on some level faithlessness... that we have a hard time accepting that which is given to us freely. Could that be because we are human and in our humaness believe in repayment... atonement as necessary. We are not able to forgive in the same way God can because we are NOT God. We cannot understand because we are human and we try to understand through our human mind that which is so far beyond what is within our capacity to understand. This is where faith comes in. Faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no tangible proof...complete trust in God even when something doesn't make sense to us.

His promise in John 3:16-21

For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemed, but whoever does not believe in him stands condemend already, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light, because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he does HAS BEEN DONE THROUGH GOD.

To me the only possible explanation that makes sense to me in the above is that WE cannot do anything ourselves to glorify God. It is only through GOD that we are even able to give glory. Anything we do be it even some works would only be through him, because of him and not because we chose to do it ourself but rather He chose for us to do and through him we do.

For example, someone becomes a missionary or some other "work" of the Lord. They did not choose this work because they are a "good" person or not choose it because they are a "bad" person. In fact God chose this work for them through HIM not them. In other words they do this work because they are convicted through their FAITH to do it. God chose this work for them.. not they chose it for them. Is this right?

All work we do including sanctification is because of Him not us. We don't chose this... it is chosen for us and when we listen to God He shows us this, his choice, not our choice for us to follow.

We get led astray thought Satan because Satan has a plan against us. His plan includes the following (from NIV notes)

Doubt: makes you question God's word and His goodness

Discouragement: makes you look at YOUR problems rather than at God.

Diversion: makes the wrong things seem attractive so that you will want these more than the right things.

Defeat: makes you feel like a failure so that you don't even try.

Delay: makes you put off something (hmmm like maybe accepting Christ?) so that it never gets done.

What is the purpose of Satan? Is his purpose to test our faith and to try to lead us into belief that faith will never be enough? Why would a loving God allow Satan to even exist? Why didn't He just get rid of him when He first started to believe he was as powerful as God?

I know his fall happened before Adam and Eve and that he is considered the ruler of the evil spiritual kingdom. In truth Christ through his resurrection became permanent ruler of the whole world. Satan is only a temporary ruler over the part of the world that chooses to follow him.

I was reading through Ephesians 2 and some of this seems to be more clear to me here through reading. It is only through grace and faith that we are saved because of the cross. Not that we will sin no more but that we will accept the gift and say thank you. Because of our humaness we try to show gratitude for this gift through works. But the appropriate response isn't give to get... it is thank you.

Any work we then do isn't to earn what was freely given to us but rather to serve God. To bring others to Him. That was His intention in terms of work. That we bring others to the body. We don't do this work to earn salvation but rather to share this news so others too will be aware of this gift.

We are all unified in Christ... which would debunk at least for me the idea of one true or remnant church. Anyone who accepts Christ is part of the body of Christ which would seem to me the one true church... the body of Christ.

I think where my confusion sets in is when I try to figure out why there are so many differnt denominations of Christianity and other religions as well. I still have questions about other non Christian religions and what of those that have been strongly raised to believe that that religion is right. If the path is narrow, and the only way to get there is through accepting Christ what is then to become of those never exposed to Christ? Are they to perish because no one ever told them of Christ? What if they are so endocrinated in their religious belief that even if they are given knowledge of Christ because their own belief is so strongly engrained in them that they have a hard time accepting in and believing in Christ?

I just don't know. Maybe I am not supposed to get this.

I don't believe God wants us to be afraid all the time that if we sin that's it were doomed. Otherwise we would give up easily. Or at least it seems to me we would.

Is the one doomed here Satan?

This seems to sum up OSAS pretty clearly to me. That without it.... salvation for anyone would be impossible. Is that what this means?

I am still digesting the latter part of your post.

Thank you for sharing this with me. I needed time to digest it and am still thinking about some of it.

Thank you also for bumping this thread for me... ya know now that I check it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob,

You assume correctly. I am a grade school teacher. I teach in a public school.

Because it is a public school there is law regarding the seperation of church and state.

This is the law in the U.S.


So far in my teaching career no child has specifically asked me this question so I cannot share an experience of this specifically. I am not trying to evade your question here.

Are you asking me if this is what I would say? Can you clarify this for me? This seems to me, which is why I am asking you, a DJ toward me Bob. Is it?


Are you suggesting this is what I should tell them based on my own life choices?

Again Bob, I teach in a public school so I could not by law share with my class either way whether or not my belief is that all is forgive by God. I just can't.

Would you have me stand before my class each year... on the first day of school or perhaps on Back to School Night when their parents are present and share my sin of adultery and my marriage to my affair partner with the students and their parents thus giving them an adequate opportunity to decide whether or not they would wish to have their child taught in a class by a teacher who has in fact committed those sins? Is this what you are asking me to do Bob?

Would this be in the best interest of students and parents?


You most certainly would have the right to know that and you would find in the U.S. that the majority of teachers would NOT advise a child using their religious beliefs specifically because it is against the law... for me to advise them about my personal Christian beliefs.

If the situation you describe actually were to happen, I would probably speak to that specific child privately to try to find out why they were asking me this question. My guess (and I can only speculate as this has not happened) would be that this child was more than likely experiencing some kind of marital problems in their own home. If they shared that they were... I would notify the school counselor and contact the child's parents.

I don't know of any teacher that would advise a child that affairs are hunky dory as long as they marry their affair partner and all would be well as long as they found religion.

And NO I would not advise this to anyone... period.

I do not believe that my salvation is dependent on me divorcing my husband and either a. remaining unmarried, b. remarry my previous husband, or c. remarrying someone else. That is MY belief. I know others disagree. I don't believe this because it suits me personally to believe this. I believe this because I believe that Christ's death was enough. He has already atoned for my sins as well as for yours and every person who believes in him.

That does not mean that I don't believe there are consequeces for sin because I do.

Is it your belief that someone such as myself be removed from the teaching profession because my sins are worse than others?

Neak,

Sorry I should have clarified that I in fact had read your other post and those were questions I had after I read it.

Your last post helped me a lot to understand your first one better so thank you.

This seems to me, which is why I am asking you, a DJ toward me Bob. Is it?

It is my summary of your situation. No more,no less. You wish to argue with its accuracy ?

My summarising of the facts of your situation is disrespectful you say, yet your continued prioritization of your own need to have your situation "legitimised" here over the decent desire to avoid preventable heartache to vulnerable people on here is NOT ?

I do not believe that my salvation is dependent on me divorcing my husband and either a. remaining unmarried, b. remarry my previous husband, or c. remarrying someone else. That is MY belief. I know others disagree.

How very convenient for you.

How inconvenient it would have been for your comfortable life if you believed your marriage was an unrepented affair.

I think I am going to believe that I can steal a million dollars, repent but kep the cash. I know others will disagree but thats my belief.

That does not mean that I don't believe there are consequeces for sin because I do.

Just not any that mean you have to change your behaviour in any majorly inconvenient way, right ?

Is it your belief that someone such as myself be removed from the teaching profession because my sins are worse than others?

Show me where I even inferred that you should be removed from your job.

Your sins are like all sins: deserving of death but forgivable.

I care only that an unrepented affair marriage is being "legitimised" in the faces of the vulnerable to whom such is the worst possible outcome of their present situation.

Do you feel entitled to discuss your situation here, regardless of the arguments you have heard for taking it somewhere quieter ?

I know that was a rhetorical question but DUH.

Since you asked this question... I would say .. NO... I don't think you should be removed from your post...

BUT... I wouldn't want you teaching my child based on your personal life.

I also would not want you to teach my child and do believe you should be dismissed from your position.

Let me tell you *why*.

Is it because I am an unforgiving [email]hard@ss[/email] who thinks anyone who falls short of my great and terrible self should just pick up their marbles and go home?

No..it is because there is a very REAL and very present tense manifest problem with the way your brain is functioning.

You are a chronic addict whether it be affairs or drugs and that makes you untrustworthy and unstable whether your intentions are ethical or not.

A few years ago there was an active WS man here with several small children and a possible OC on the way.

He was the PICTURE of instability, immaturity, flawed logic, complete lack of ethical standard...and he was also...a DOCTOR.

So doesn't THAT just fill you with confidence in trusting this man with your life?

I do not believe that any person who is presently demonstrating...not failure to sustain PEFECTION..but failure to sustain MINIMUM FUNCTION belongs in any role that could be regarded as pivotal..and to be frank..you probably WOULDN'T be if you were honest with the people employing you about your lifestyle.

Bob,

Your question was a fair question. I didn't believe the question itself to be a DJ. What follows is you answering the question you ask me yourself. That part to me is a DJ.

It isn't accurate that I would say this to a child in my classroom. Your belief about my marriage is your belief. Your belief in itself isn't a disrespectful judgement. It is your belief. I accept your belief as yours.

To which I said:


To which I replied:


I did not say your summary of the fact is disrespectful. I asked for clarity. Where I called DJ was not with your summary or your belief. It was answering the question for me that I thought was disrespectful. Why ask me a question if you choose to believe you already know what my response is?

Your belief from the above statement is that my presence here causes preventable heartache to vulnerable people here? Is this correct?

My belief is that I cannot prevent anyone here from the heartache they feel. My choice to marry my H and his choice to marry me caused pain to the real people in our real life. No one here was harmed by my choice. I did not commit adultury with any person on this board.

I cannot make any BS feel more pain. I am just not that powerful. If they choose to believe that my life choices cause further pain in their life that choice is theirs to make. I cannot stop them from choosing to believe that I am hurting them.

Is your issue with the fact that my affair went all the way down that road... all the way to marriage of the OP? That this is harmful because it will cause them to be more fearful that it can happen? Is their fear that it could happen reasonable? Do some WS leave their M and marry their OP?
Are they leaving their M because of something I posted here? Do I have any control over what a WS does or doesn't do? Can I stop them? What can they learn from my situation?

That it can happen again. Does it mean it will? I can only speak for my situation that yes in my case infidelity occured again.

When I had my affair... I thought I would be different with someone else... my life would be better... I would be better. I falsely believed that the problems in my first M were what caused me to be wayward. It wasn't true. People aren't replaceable. You cannot change out a spouse for a new one and then think every thing is hunky dory. Because the truth for me was... I was still there, in my current M, too. All the issues I had in my first M, didn't miraculously go away by getting myself a new husband, because he couldn't change who I was, or make me better, or heal my pain. When I was wayward, that is exactly what I believed... that he could.

When I first came to MB shortly after D-day and becoming the BS... I falsely believed that I was no longer wayward because I wasn't and hadn't had another affair. I was still in WS mentality as a BS because I still believed that it must be my fault that my H cheated because logic would follow that if I believed that I cheated on my XH because of him... then my H cheated on me because I was not a good enough wife. Neither belief was true.

I cheated because I felt a sense of entitlement. It had nothing to do with my XH. I wanted to justify it by blaming my A on the problems in the M. There was no problem in the M that could ever have justified my A. Just as there is no justification for my H for either of his A's. He chose because he felt entitled. Entitlement is what causes A's.

Do you believe that Squid's A was because you were a bad husband? Or was it because somewhere in her mind she justified to herself that she was entitled?

Your M pre A was half yours and half hers. The A was not about you... even if at the time she told herself it was. This is what WS tell themselves. We know it is wrong (at least I believe most people know or believe it is wrong) but we have to tell ourselves this so we can do it anyway because we feel entitled to get our needs met.

Waywardness is a state of mind and it isn't limited to marital infidelity, same with entitlement.
Is it your belief that my life choices are convient for me? Do you think my current marriage has been a bed of roses? It would have been easier... or more convient for me to get a divorce. Rebuilding a marriage whose foundation was based on a lie, fantasy, and deception is a steep hill to climb. If it wasn't for God I don't think I would have had the strength to go on.

Should my kids' family be destroyed because of horrible choices my H and I have made?
Bob, it is your belief that my life is comfortable. I live with the consequences of my life everyday. I cannot change the past. I can only go forward and make better choices. I sinned horribly Bob and I have given my life over to Christ. My sins are forgiven the same as any Christian who asks for forgiveness.

I do not believe that the only way to repent for this sin is to divorce my current H. I also respect that this is some believers belief. I respect their belief as theirs.

Do you state this, to support, that because I choose to believe that divorce is not what God requires of me? Do you think I believe this... because it is "convient" for my situation? Is that what you are saying?

In this you seem to suggest that the only way I could change my behavior in an inconvient way, is a divorce. Is that what you are saying?

I asked you a question. You had stated that if I was advising that it was okay to cheat, marry the OP, and then ask for forgiveness and everything would be hunky dory, then you as a parent would want to know that. I stated that I agreed that if in fact I was advising students this way that a parent should know that. I asked you if you thought I should be removed from my job. I did not state that you inferred it. It was not my intent in asking you that to infer that I thought you believed that. I asked you because I wanted to know what your belief about this was. If it came across that I was inferring that you were saying that I should be removed,then I apologize to you Bob.

I am not sure what you mean by this.. are you saying I deserve to die because I committed adultery? Or are you saying all sin period is deserving of death?

You say my sins are forgivable. By what means are my sins forgivable... do you believe that our sins are forgiven because Jesus was nailed to the cross? Or do you believe we have to do more than that to earn forgiveness? Can forgiveness from God be earned? Is there ever enough I could ever do to be worthy of Jesus's forgiveness?

I have no control over the outcome of any other person here's life. I share my situation... this was my outcome. I had an affair, I married my OP. My H then had an A. I believe there is a lesson in my story too. If we don't get to the truth of what causes infidelity... if each person doesn't get the lesson for themselves from their own A or their partners A then they will continue to repeat this over and over until they DO get the lesson.

It is my belief that if an A ends only through exposure and then a marriage is "recovered" only through the WS admitting they were wrong and then they try to go back to their life with the WS trying to make it up to the BS without the deep personal inner work that both partners in a marriage must make... their recovery will not be that successful long term. The post A marriage has to grow and each partner has to commit to a new and different M than they had pre A.

I believe telling the truth is not as harmful as hiding it and pretending it doesn't exist.

If a BS reads this and then fears more than s/he already does.. what also will s/he learn from my story? S/he will learn from my story that the infidelity continued. What will the WS learn... that infidelity continued. That their OP who was capable of cheating with them... will be just as capable of cheating on them. Infidelity is like a disease. It doesn't get cured by getting a new partner. At least that has not been my personal experience.

Yeah, the lesson in your story is that you are getting what you had coming to you... the story is that sometimes justice has a way of popping up.
What I don't get is why when you married your A partner... is that you are on here whining about his A.... you KNEW what you were marrying, just as he knew what he was marrying....you were both cheaters that NEVER stopped. It really is that simple.

eta... I know the above sounds snippy... and I guess it is... but what really confuses me about this whole mess... is when did your "relationship" stop being cheating? Was it the day you were divorced? Married? I just don't get how if you were cheating yesterday... that you feel that today doing the same thing is not in fact wrong.... why... because you have a paper from the state? Or is it because you think you have some understanding of what God wants from you right now? IMHO, if it was cheating yesterday... it is cheating today.

MEDC - Perhaps this is something that may help to clarify your confusion, because we all suffer from a similar confusion.

When did you stop being a sinner? That "you" is both you personally and you as it applies to everyone.

For me, I AM still a sinner. I AM forgiven because God has chosen to forgive my sins because His Son earned that right for all who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. This forgiveness by God is a LEGAL term, "declared innocent." It is NOT granted by anything that I did, or could do. It is a gift of God to us simply by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. "Behold, the old has gone, the new has come." It is God who works the miracle of "new birth" and it is Christ who provides the "exoneration" through having taken ALL of our sins upon Himself FOR us. God does this for us on behalf of Jesus, HE earned it, not us.




MEDC, I wonder, by extension of this logic, why many people are on MB "whining" about their situation when they knew going in what the "past situation" was? How many people are in their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. marriage? How many people are "unequally yoked?" How many people are got married without God as a part of their life and then "whine" when someone accepts the "worldview" that cheating is "okay?" How many people are married to people who are so "independent" that they are married in "name only," and they knew "going in" that the person they were marrying was "married" to their job first and foremost?

Nothing in life is ever "that simple." That is the nature of sin and disobedience to God.

Where DOES forgiveness of sin, big or small, enter into the "equation?" Did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman to "go back to her first husband?" Did Jesus tell the crowd surrounding the adulterous woman to "go ahead and toss a few stones, your sins are nowhere near as agregious, so you are "justified" before God and can even toss bricks if you have a mind to?

"Neither do I condemn you."

It would seem that the Lord has spoken, don't you think?

"Leaving a life of sin" does NOT mean to commit another sin in order to "make things right." It means to recognize the sin for the sin it is and to change one's "mindset" that sinning is "okay" to one where one tries, to the best of their ability, to follow God in humble obedience from that day forward.

You, Bob Pure, etc. seem to want to make a distinction between an "adulterous marriage" and an "affair marriage." You seem to want to "limit" it to only one where a WS marries the OP and not to include ANY marriage that the WS might enter. IF the "logic" is that the only way to "stop sinning" is to divorce from an "adulterous marriage," then you cannot "limit" that "requirement" to just a marriage of "affair partners."

Adultery is adultery.

Extending this "logic" you, Bob, and others are making, NO person should be welcome on MB if they are seeking help for their current marriage problem IF they were previously married, especially if they were the one who divorced their previous spouse for ANY reason other than their former spouse having committed adultery.

All "irreconcilable differences" divorces, for example, would put ANY subsequent marriage by either the husband or wife, into an "adulterous marriage" and would, by extension of this logic you (and others) have proposed, REQUIRE that they divorce their spouse because their marriage was founded in adultery (per the biblical definition).

So what IS the point of this continued harrassment of Jilly?

COULD someone be "offended" that she is here?

Sure, all of you are offended, as you were in my previous thread that was just to check up on her.

Is the "potentially offensive" to others to be the MEASURE of whether or not someone is "allowed" to, or has a "right to," post on MB?

If that is to be the measure, then why don't we just close the doors to the site and tell everyone to seek help anywhere else but where "I" (meaning any person who might be potentially or actually "offended") might happen to be?

What IS the purpose of forgiveness of sin and of repentance of the sin that was committed? It is the FULL restoration of FULL fellowship in the body of believers regardless of whether or not "some" individuals in the body might be "offended" by a given type of sin. That's because forgiveness of sin is FIRST the province of God, and second is a command to fellow believers to "forgive AS God has forgiven your sins."

Failure to forgive is itself a sin of disobedience to God's command TO forgive a repentant sinner "seventy times seven times" in a day if necessary.

That the sin is "offensive" is NOT the issue. ALL sin is offensive. The "offensiveness" of the sin is NOT the issue. Repentance of the sin committed and our requirement to forgive a fellow believer IS the issue. We don't have to "like it," we merely have to obey God ourselves.