I am glad I am a Christian, based not on the behavior of other Christians, but on the person of Jesus Christ. Christians do sin, they do make mistakes....but Jesus did not come to heal the healthy, He came to heal the sick. And I look to HIM as my example, my "witness", and not to any human, Christian or otherwise. To do that would not be a very good idea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH,

Regarding the previously quoted scripture:

“no need to "explain these verses away." I happen to agree with them.”

So what then is the issue? The marriage you are defending on this thread is patently adulterous. Forever true, correct and unambiguous scripture, according to your own words, says so as plain as day. And you say you agree, too!


“That's correct. I cannot. Only God can, and then only for those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Or are you saying that there are some sins that God cannot forgive and make the individuals "white as snow" (sinless) in His eyes?”

Sheesh, God is God. He knows a person’s heart. But you yourself have said on other threads many times continued sin is not forgiven. I agree with you there. The issue is never, “God cannot”. God has plainly said through Christ what he will not.


“Accusations and opinions are fine, but now it is incumbent upon you to provide the specifics of your reasoning that you use to arrive at such a conclusion. “

I don’t know, FH. These discussions never get anywhere with you.

I do not know your heart. But, hypocritical is the word that first comes to mind.

God forgives the truly repentant. And true repentance means no more sinning, no more adultery in this case, and restitution. An affair marriage is continued adultery with no restitution and thus continued sinning. No wiggle room here at all.

For you to say an affair marriage can be made not so by God is hard to argue with. But, Christ has said through scripture he does not condone such a marriage.

This is where I worry about your soul, your salvation. You continually (i.e. persistently, with frequency or regularity) re-interpret scripture at will. You promulgate your own individual, wrong, almost non-Christian beliefs in a smokescreen of scripture. This is an egregious evil you flirt with.

I leave you with this:

John 4 16 Jesus saith to her: Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered, and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: Thou hast said well, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands: and he whom thou now hast, is not thy husband. This thou hast said truly.


Perhaps five could be replaced with one affair husband and it means the same.

still with prayers,

Do you know what the really rotten thing is? That no matter what is said here, it will not phase Jilly...She will only come back and say "I respect that that is your belief, I choose to believe otherwise"...She's freakin' bulletproof!!! So strong is her sense of entitlement to be helped HERE that there is no one or nothing that matters to her one bit...It's digusting, IMO...

She has been asked time and time again to take this elsewhere...Even just to take it to another section of Marriage Builders, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...It is, for some reason, so all fired important to her to get help right here in the trenches...Feeling or at least saying that she feels that her sharing might even help the folks here...PUHLEASE...Jilly, as a FWS I can tell you that the only message that a WS would take from reading your stuff is that you received what they believe to be the ultimate "marriage prize"...They would not look at you as a cautionary tale as you believe...Nope, they would think, see marriages can happen from affairs and my OM/OW would NEVER cheat on me or me them, so we would not end up like Jilly...It's all pie in the sky with the wayward mindset...You of all people should get that...

As for continuing the religious discussion with Jilly...FINE...DO THAT...But WHY OH WHY does it have to be HERE on GQII??? Somebody come up with a VALID reason (short and to the point please) for it having to be HERE when so many are so obviously negatively triggered by it??? Why does the "need" of ONE supercede the needs of MANY?

Mrs. W

Aphelion - I think Jesus merely discerned that she was not married to the man she was currently with.

FH - You often quote the woman found in adultery but please remember Jesus told her to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

"I think Jesus merely discerned that she was not married to the man she was currently with.'

yes, an instance of one or more of these explicit cases:

Matthew 5 32 But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Matthew 19 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Mark 10 11 And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10 12 And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16 18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband, committeth adultery.

2 Peter 2 14 Having eyes full of adultery and of sin that ceaseth not: alluring unstable souls, having their heart exercised with covetousness, children of malediction.



Note the last verse. Anyone who apologizes, excuses, justifies, says God may make it OK if such and such occurs or in anyway explains away an adulterous union of any kind, including an A marriage, allures souls to sin and is not to be believed. In fact, is to be called on it.

I just learned something very interesting....

The phrase that is translated "Put away" is very different from the word that translates to "divorce". In Old Testament times, men had multiple wives and concubines and at times they would "put away" or "send away" a wife for no good reason....it was in those instances that if she then married someone else, she was in effect committing adultery, and that is why Deuteronomy establishes a law that they can't just "send away" a wife, they had to give her a certificate of divorce. In other words, the one who was "put away" was only comitting adultery because he/she was not legally divorced.

I know that many translations translate "put away" into "divorce", but now I am wondering if that is really accurate? According to the original Hebrew words, it is not.

Jesus said "MT 5:31 "It has been said, `Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

A good thing we don't apply the OT standard... "LEV 20:10 " `If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

I interpret it to mean she was just shacked up with the latest one - never having married him.

In effect, that is what I think is going on in this thread...not a LITERAL stoning, but a stoning nonetheless.

NOW,

No one is saying that Jilly can't get help...EVEN here on the boards at MB, but WHY here, on GQII, in the trenches in front of so many victims???

Mrs. W

I would disagree. It is nothing more than an ongoing affair that needs to be turned from.

NOW - I agree with this but remember Jesus's forgiveness and healing is not a licence to continue in our sin. Jesus said GO and sin no more.

I really have the utmost respect and compassion for the BS on this forum, I think so highly of you all, and I hate to see you hurting. I really do understand your concerns. I don't know why Jilly wants to continue here, knowing how painful this is for a lot of people to read.
But, you all know, you cannot change other people, you can only change yourself. You have said what you believe, but you cannot do the convicting. If there is sin that Jilly needs to be convicted of, repent of, and turn from, then it is God's job to see to it that happens. Beyond that, there is nothing you can do, other than pray...pray for her, for all marriages exposed to adultery, pray for protection for the vulnerable who come here seeking help....and believe that God can and will handle this how HE sees fit.

NOW

It's called entitlement - and Jilly has that in spades.

in other words she doesn't care

I honestly see two different issues, dear Mrs. W, Big K, and all my other wonderful friends.

There is the spiritual issue, which as long as it doesn't concern marriage, I think could be addressed anywhere, here included. Certainly all discussion of her current situation should be elsewhere, out of courtesy to the BS's here.

But what purpose will driving her away entirely serve? She will be cut off from a very good source of truth and information, which has revolutionized my own life, and that of many others.

For any person who ever sins, the answer is to have Jesus in their life. None of us realize our own sinfulness, until we get close enough to Him to see our true condition.

This is the case whether the sin is stealing, lying, pride, selfishness, or even adultery.

The Holy Spirit works with more effeciency than any of us. When our human best has failed, He still has a thousand ways left to reach our hearts.

I would humbly propose that, as long as Jilly doesn't go around all over trying to stir up trouble, which I have not seen her do, that she either be left alone or brought closer to Jesus, whichever one any given person thinks they may be able to do.

Not everyone changes their minds overnight, and if Jilly truly follows Jesus, He will lead her into all truth and righteousness. As will He do with us.

Neak...

Because her NAME ALONE triggers quite a few here, why not take this to a quieter section of MB? Why is GQII, the infidelity trenches, the ONLY place that any that choose to help her may? That is the part that I just don't get...It seems very cruel for her to stay when it so obviously causes dissension and feelings of grief...There is an entire General Discussion section here after all...

Mrs. W

Neak - gotta agree with MrsW on this one.

Aphelion, I understand what you are trying to say and I do not accuse you of being a hypocrite simply because you have an honest disagreement with my opinion.

Having said that, then allow me to give you my reasoning on this issue, though some like MEDC might not like the fact that it requires more than just a simple “yes” or “no” answer and will take a fair amount of space to try to explain.

You have a sincere question about my position and you deserve a sincere response.

So let’s begin with your post and then I’ll add to it in the hope that you will have a better understanding of my position vies-a-vie Jilly’s particular situation.



That’s not exactly what I have said. What I have said, and what I maintain, is that unrepentant sinners are not forgiven. In the context of JJ’s situation, she committed adultery, as did her husband. That is a fact. That is a sin, just like all other sins are sins.

What IS the Scriptural position with respect to being forgiven for sins?

Obviously the FIRST “need” in this area is for someone to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Included in this acceptance is a repentance of sins committed, recognizing that all sin is foremost against God. Someone who does not accept Christ remains in sin and their sins are not forgiven.

The biblical truth from the Word of God is not always “easy” for us to understand or accept because we frequently view things from our own perspective. But God views things from His perspective, not ours, and tells us that we are to submit our will (our views, if you will) to His will.

So what is “relevant” to this issue is found in 1Corinthians 6:9-11:

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, not thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (NKJV, emphasis added)

Here is some commentary on that passage that may provide further clarification.

“6:11 some of you. Though not all Christians have been guilty of all those particular sins, every Christian is equally an ex-sinner, since Christ came to save sinners (cf. Matt.9:13: Rom.5:20). Some who used to have those patterns of sinful life were falling into those old sins again, and needed reminding that if they went all the way back to live as they used to, they were not going to inherit eternal salvation, because it would indicate that they never were saved (cf. 2Cor.5:17)
washed. Refers to new life, through spiritual cleansing and regeneration (cf. John 3:3-8; 2Cor. 5:17; Eph.2:10; Titus 3:5).
sanctified This results in new behavior, which a transformed life always produces. Sin’s total domination is broken and replaced by a new pattern of obedience and holiness. Though not perfection, this is a new direction (see Rom.6: 17,18,22)
justified This refers to a new standing before God, in which the Christian is clothed in Christ’s righteousness. In His death, the believer’s sins were put to His account and He suffered for them, so that His righteousness might be put to an account, so that we might be blessed for it (Rom 3:26; 4:22-25; 2Cor.5:21; Phil.3:8,9; 1Pet.3:18).
by the Spirit The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation’s transformation. (cf. John 3:3-5). (The MacArthur Study Bible, p.1736)



I agree. And what Christ has said is that the ONLY unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. As the passage in 1 Corinthians quoted above makes clear, even adultery is forgiven in Christ.



God does forgive the truly repentant sinner. It is a change in “thinking,” of attempting to live in humble obedience to God “from that day forward” and in repenting (heart felt sorrow for sin against God) for any sins that one may commit in the future (since we are NOT perfect but are still locked in “sin-prone” body).

But I disagree with the remainder of your statement. Please show me where in the Scripture God requires “restitution” of a debt in order for that to be forgiven. There is, as you say, “No wiggle room here at all.”

What the Word of God DOES say is the following; “But God, who is rich in His mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.” (Eph. 2:4-9)

There is NO “restitution” required by God, no act, no works, that anyone can do to “merit” or “qualify” for God’s forgiveness. As you said, God sees the heart, and God knows true repentance and grants total forgiveness through Jesus Christ. That isn’t my “opinion,” that is the Word of God.



Okay, I’m a bit confused by what you write here. You are saying that God CAN forgive an “affair marriage” and make it “not so.” If it is “not so,” then it no longer would be an “affair marriage” as those who are arguing that Jilly “must” divorce her current husband in order to actually BE forgiven of the sin of adultery.

You seem to want to “qualify” that “not so” that God CAN make by adding that Christ does not “condone” such a marriage. That is something that I would agree with. Jesus does NOT “condone” any sin. But that is something quite different than saying that it cannot be forgiven and that the sinners cannot be justified, because Christ died for all the sins of a believer.



Okay, let’s take a closer look at the passage of Scripture you quoted concerning the Samaritan woman that Jesus encountered at the well.


This entire encounter is about the “living water” that is provided by Jesus. When the woman did not understand that he was talking to her about her spiritual needs He focused her attention on her “real need for conversion and cleansing from sin. His intimate knowledge of her morally depraved life not only indicated His supernatural ability, but also focused on her spiritual condition.” (Commentary in quotes, The MacArthur Study Bible, p.1584)

“4:17 not your husband. She was living conjugally with a man who Jesus said was not her husband. By such and explicit statement, our Lord rejected the notion that when two people live together it constitutes marriage. Biblically, marriage is always restricted to a public, official, and recognized covenant.” (The MacArthur Study Bible, p.1584)

When someone has sex with someone, they create a “one flesh” situation, as God intended sex to be reserved for marriage. In that situation (fornication) it is “correct” to say that she had “five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband.” But conjugal relations with someone is not the same thing as being married biblically. As such, it is inappropriate to attempt to use this passage of Scripture to support a contention that Jesus did not, or does not, “recognize” an “adulterous marriage.” The woman thought that Jesus was talking about her physical need for water and not her spiritual need for “living water.” The same is true for her physical need for a “man” in her life. The “man” that she really needed was Jesus, for her spiritual need for cleansing and justification, to be His “bride” as all believers are His “bride.” Jesus drew the distinction between “living with a man” and being “married” to a man according to God’s “rules.”



So let’s turn now to your most serious allegation:


Aphelion, you apparently contend that God does NOT recognize, let alone provide His blessing of, a marriage founded in adultery. I understand the “repugnance” of such a thing, especially since the Scripture is replete with warnings and commands to “not commit adultery. Adultery is repugnant to God and it is repugnant to me also. However repugnant it may be, it does not mean that the sin cannot be forgiven and that God cannot bless and use ANY marriage, even one that was “born” from an adulterous relationship. If that is “re-interpreting scripture at will,” if it is promulgating my [/i] “own individual, wrong, almost non-Christian beliefs in a smokescreen of scripture,” [/i] then you are right to “rebuke” me for such a belief.

However, when God has shown that He not only CAN forgive such a marriage, but that He HAS done so and continued to bless that marriage, even while allowing some of the consequences of the sin to be manifested, then I stand on the Word of God no matter how “uncomfortable” or “repugnant” it might make me feel.

In 2 Samuel 11-12 we have the most relevant story of King David’s life and his adultery with Bathsheba. David committed both adultery and murder. He married his “affair partner.”

11:27 And when her mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

God sent Nathan to David to confront him with his sin. After telling David about a “hypothetical situation,” David responded:

12:5 So David’s anger was greatly aroused against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, the man who has done this shall surely die! And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and had no pity.” (indignation over the sin and a “fix” of restitution to be imposed upon the sinner)

12: 7a Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man!

12: 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon.

12: 13 So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. (emphasis added)

12:14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die.”

But the LORD did not abandon David, nor did He “cut him off” without forgiveness or blessing.

12:24-25 Then David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in to her and lay with her [which many here have said would constitute “continued adultery” even after receiving the Lord’s forgiveness]. So she bore a son, and he called his name Solomon. Now the LORD loved him, and He sent word by the hand of Nathan the prophet: So he called his name Jedidiah, because of he LORD.

12:25 Jedidiah “Beloved of the LORD” was Nathan’s name for Solomon, who was loved in the sense of being chosen by the Lord to be the successor to David’s throne, a remarkable instance of God’s goodness and grace considering the sinful nature of the marriage. (The MacArthur Study Bible, p.444)

Finally, on this issue, Jesus was Himself descended from David.

“And Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah.” (Matthew 1:6 NKJV, emphasis added).

There were terrible “prices” (consequences) that were paid as a result of the adultery and murder. Yet God chose to forgive because of David’s repentance. He could not make “restitution,” nor did God command him to make restitution. There were consequences that David would have to live with for the rest of his life, but God forgave him the sin and blessed his “affair marriage” with Bathsheba, first in their son Solomon, and finally with His own Son, Jesus. You and I might choose to “not forgive,” but God chose to forgive. It is the same thing with all of the elect. God chooses us, despite how despicable we might seem prior to our being born again. God also chooses to forgive ALL the sins of a born again believer, no matter how egregious they may be, or seem, to others. God continues to convict us of sin in our lives and brings a believer to repentance of that sin. If God commands believers to forgive fellow believers “seventy times seven times,” isn’t Jesus really telling us to “do as God does” on My behalf, since I bore all of your sins, not just some of them?

If that is promoting a non-Christian belief, or an “almost” non-Christian belief, then I stand guilty.

You implied, also, that you were worried about my soul, as if I was, in your opinion, in danger of losing my salvation in Christ.

“This is where I worry about your soul, your salvation.”

Are you saying that a believer CAN lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? If that is what you were saying, then I would hope you would support that contention with the full context of Scripture. If not, then what exactly were you trying to say?


God bless.

Aphelion - this is a gross misrepresentation of this passage and a missapplication of it.

This is a passage about False Teachers (which is what it appears you are backhandedly accusing me of being).

This particular verse is speaking about false teachers.

But just so you know it is not merely my opinion, here is a commentary on that verse.

2:14 eyes full of adultery. The false teachers had so totally lost moral control that they could not look at any woman without seeing her as a potential adulteress (cf.Matt.5:28). They were uncontrollably driven by lust, never resting from their sins. enticing unstable souls. The metaphor is from fishing and appears also in v.18. To beguile is to catch with bait. False teachers do not capture those strong in the Word, but prey on the weak, the unstable, and the young in faith (see 3:16: cf Eph.4:14, 1John 3:13). heart trained in covetous practices. The word "trained," was often used for training in athletics. The false teachers have trained, prepared, and equipped their minds to concentrate on nothing but the forbiddden craft of self-fulfillment. accursed children. This is a Hebraism for the curse of sin being the dominant thing in their lives, thus saying that they are damned to he11 for their blatant wickedness. (The MacArther Study Bible, NKJV, p.1958)

So, are you accusing me of being a "false teacher" or perhaps not being born again and just a minion of Satan attempting to deceive others for my own gain?

Are you accusing Nathan of being a "false teacher" when he told David that his sin was forgiven by God?

Are you accusing God of incorrectly forgiving David's sin?


This is very troubling, Aphelion.