PM...

I see no evidence that Jesus abolished the law..in fact he expressly says he does not.

Can you explain what you mean by "Jesus fulfilled the law." I do not understand your use of the word fulfilled in this context.

MEDC

eta... never mind... I found an explanation about that.... there seems to be a lot of speculation about the intent of his words. I will do more reading on this.

I personally do not think anyone should be stoned for their sin... but I do think they need to stop sinning in order for their sins to be forgiven...to turn away from their sin. I have read much and have heard this from people far more learned than me. I agree with the stance that Aph has taken on this issue.

MEDC

Jerry - no "2x4's here, just a sincere question.

1). When God forgives a sin is it forgiven or held as a "maybe?"

2). When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them and God judges them "justified" and "white as snow," does that mean FULLY and COMPLETELY or just PARTIALLY and the "rest of the way" requires us to DO something to earn full forgiveness?

The very day JJ accepted Christ into her life... she became white as snow... the VERY NEXT time she was with her "husband" she once again returned to sin.

TJ: Mrs. W, thank you. I had never seen that before. Link or forum, either one. (I've basically always been a GQII girl.)

FH,
I'm sorry but this exactly wher you and I part ways.


Yes FH, that is exactly what it means! Did you ever hear of the notion of doing penance for our sins. Surely you have heard of fasting and prayer for the repentance of sin, have you not.

Yes indeed, I do believe it takes something on our part to complete the forgiveness that Christ so freely imparts. Why would it not be so???
Are we somehow to believe that we need to do nothing to recieve His forgivness. Do we not also have to show good faith in the wonderful gift that he freely gives? To do otherwise is an insult and an affront to the mercy and grace that He so freely imparts. How much must our Savior bear? How many times can we continue to recrucify our Lord, before the Father's hand falls on us all. His bitter cup of justice is overflowing now. Which of us will share His cup????

Yes, I am adomant that we must turn away from our sin for the forgiveness process, to be complete.
To assume otherwise is to forget that our God is also a God of Justice!! Thus far, we have beeen blessed to see only his mercy and forgiveness, but I ask you, what will we see on His glorious day of judgement.

Notice, I did not quote anything from scripture. Just spoke my heart.

I wish you All blessings,
Jerry

Noodle and MEDC – the law was not “abolished,” it was fulfilled. The “purpose” of the Law was to convict people of their sins and to point to the need of a “perfect” sacrifice that was fulfilled in Jesus.

MEDC – I assume (so correct me if I am wrong) that you are NOT arguing for a “works based faith” nor are you arguing that Christians are subject to the “do’s and don’ts” of the law, as the early Jewish believers thought should be imposed upon the Gentile believers until they were corrected by the apostle Paul. Even Peter held to Jewish ideas of “clean and unclean” when it came to the Gentiles and he had to be “set straight” by God to “not call anything unclean that God has made clean.”

So what is your point? Are you arguing for a “return” to death for adultery? Are you arguing that God cannot have mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy, whether you “like it or not?” Are you arguing that God had no right to forgive the heartfelt repentance of David? Are you arguing that God had no right to bless David and Bathsheba’s marriage with Solomon? Are you arguing that God had no right to be faithful to His Abrahamic covenant even though God chose frequently to do so through “less than faithful, less than perfect” humans?

Here is the passage of Scripture in question and commentary on the verses for you to consider. Again, God is NOT arguing for a “works based” salvation and God is not arguing for a LAW based “working out of your salvation. God is talking about a “heart condition” of surrendered lives in believers and their desire to be obedient to all of His commands.



“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-20, NKJV)

Commentary:

5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. Jesus was neither giving a new law nor modifying the old, but rather explaining the true significance of the moral content of Moses’ law and the rest of the OT Scriptures, not the rabbinical interpretations of them. fulfill. This speaks of fulfillment in the same sense that prophecy is fulfilled. Christ was indicating that He is the fulfillment of the law in all of its aspects. He fulfilled the moral law by keeping it perfectly. He fulfilled the ceremonial law by being the embodiment of everything the law’s types and symbols pointed to. And He fulfilled the judicial law by personifying God’s perfect justice.

5:18 till heaven and earth pass away…till all is fulfilled. Here Christ was affirming the utter inerrancy and absolute authority of the OT as the Word of God – down to the least jot and tittle. Again, this suggests that the NT should not be seen as supplanting and abrogating the OT, but as fulfilling and explicating it. For example, all the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic law were fulfilled in Christ and are no longer to be observed by Christians (Col.2:16,17). Yet not one jot or tittle is thereby erased; the underlying truths of those Scriptures remain – and in fact the mysteries behind them are now revealed in the brighter light of the gospel. one jot or one tittle. A “jot” refers to the smallest Heb. Letter, the yohd, which is a meager stroke of the pen, like and accent mark or an apostrophe. The “tittle” is a tiny extension on a Heb. Letter, like the serif in modern typefaces.

5:19 shall be called least…shall be called great. The consequence of practicing or teaching disobedience of any of God’s Word is to be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Determining rank in the kingdom of heaven is entirely God’s prerogative (cf. Matt.20:23), and Jesus declares that He will hold those in the lowest esteem who hold His Word in low esteem. There is no impunity for believers who disobey, discredit, or belittle God’s law. That Jesus does not refer to loss of salvation is clear from the fact that, though offenders will be called least, they will still be in the kingdom of heaven. The positive result is that whoever keeps and teaches God’s Word, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Here again Jesus mentions the two aspects of doing and teaching. Kingdom citizens are to uphold every part of God’s law both in their living and in their teaching.

5:20 unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. On the one hand, Jesus was calling his disciples to a deeper, more radical holiness than that of the Pharisees. Pharisasism has a tendency to soften the law’s demands by focusing only on external obedience. In the verses that follow, Jesus unpacks the full moral significance of the law, and shows that the righteousness the law calls for actually involves an internal conformity to the spirit of the law, rather than mere external compliance to the letter. will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. On the on the other hand, this sets up an impossible barrier to works-salvation. Scripture teaches repeatedly that sinners are capable of nothing but a flawed and imperfect righteousness (e.g., Is. 64:6). Therefore the only righteousness by which sinners may be justified is the perfect righteousness of God that is imputed to those who believe (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5)
(NKJV, The MacArthur Study Bible, p.1400)


And what is the “perfect righteousness of God that is imputed to those who believe?”

It is Christ’s righteousness, not our own.

We receive a washing, a cleansing, a new birth, through the blood sacrifice of Jesus, who DID keep all the law perfectly and whose righteousness God then imputes to all believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. IT IS DONE! “It is finished.” We receive a changed “heart condition” wherein we desire to be obedient to God even though we are still “trapped” inside of a fallen sin-natured body. Remember, God did not call Israel out of the nations because Israel “merited” being “God’s people.” God chose Israel because that was His choice. God chose you and me for the same reason, He chose us, we did not “merit” being chosen by anything we did, nor do we “remain chosen” because of what we do. We remain chosen by the blood and power of God and His faithfulness to HIS promises to believers.

David, likewise, received God’s unmerited grace and mercy. So has JJ, and so have you and I and all believers in Jesus. God, not us, is Sovereign and does as He “sees fit.” Ours is to accept His gift of grace, His wiping out of OUR own debt of sin, and to NOT place a burden on a fellow believer that God has released you from. Jesus fulfilled the debt of sin that we all owed, “for the wages of sin is death.” He died so that ALL of our sins COULD be forgiven and that the Justice of God (the wrath of God concerning sin) was fulfilled in His body and His death.


“As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” So he arose and followed Him.” (Matt. 9:9 NKJV)

Commentary: 9:9 sitting at the tax office. Matthew’s own humility is seen here. He did not disguise his past or make any excuse for it. Whereas Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27 employ his former name, Levi, Matthew himself used the name by which he was known after becoming a disciple (cf. Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15). Tax collectors were among the most despised persons in this society. The money they collected was often partly extorted for personal gain (cf. Luke 19:8) and partly a tax for Rome, which made them not only thieves, but also traitors to the Jewish nation. (The MacArthur Study Bible, p.1407-1408)

Question: Did Jesus tell, much less require, Matthew to “make restitution to all he had extorted money from” BEFORE becoming Jesus’ disciple? Or did Jesus simply say, “Follow Me?”


“Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Matt.9:10-12, NKJV)

MEDC, there are two opposing beliefs concerning salvation and the forgiveness of sin. One is a “works plus faith” based belief and the other is a “faith only” based belief. Which do you believe and which do you believe the Word of God teaches? I would ask the same question of Aphelion.

FH - I know you *think* I believe in a faith + works salvation but I do not. I believe that "His grace is sufficient" that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and solely that.

However in Matthew 25:32ff Jesus tells the story referred to as the "sheep and the goats" Can you tell me what it was that separated these 2 distinct groups of people - the damned and the saved? Because it was not faith was it?

God has prepared good works for us to do not to earn our salvation but out of a desire to serve him when we are saved.


Imagine that FH - Jesus even had the temerity to call people to REPENT. WOW. Luke 13 even says repent or perish. He even talks about the joy in heaven over 1 sinner who repents.

The early Church also called on people (Acts 2:38) to REPENT and BELIEVE


Seems clear to me we are called to Repent.

Is repentence works FH?

Is anyone entitled to continue sinning? Or does Jesus's command to the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more" not applicable?

Tell me FH - some people have genuinely repented and accepted Christ's sacrifice for their sins and been saved. There are in fact many Christians who have committed adultery. If they refuse to repent and return to their Lord, are they saved or not? I mean - they were ONCE saved weren't they - or do you only acknowledge convenient scripture?

Or perhaps we should just pluck out the whole book of James since it is surely inconvenient for you to read that "Faith without works is dead"

and please don't try and put words in my mouth as happened in your other thread....

Jerry, thank you for speaking from your heart. I try to do the same.

Would you care to discuss this further? This is one of the “dividing lines” between the major religions of Roman Catholicism and Reformed Protestantism, if not THE dividing line.

Here, from my heart, is the Word of God’s position:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8,9 NKJV)

“Works” have nothing whatsoever do with being saved.

“For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” (Eph. 2:14-16 NKJV)

“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone [not Peter], in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” (Eph. 2:19-22 NKJV)

“As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” (Colossians 2:6-14 NKJV, emphasis added)


“Did you ever hear of the notion of doing penance for our sins.”

Yes, I have heard of “penance,” at least as the RCC teaches it.

I am also aware of the RCC teaching of “Mortal Sin,” whereby according to the teaching of the RCC a saved person can LOSE their salvation and have to “earn it back again,” contrary to the teaching of Scripture.


“Yes indeed, I do believe it takes something on our part to complete the forgiveness that Christ so freely imparts. Why would it not be so???”

It would not be so simply because the Word of God teaches us that there is nothing we can do on our own to “earn” forgiveness of our sins. It IS a “normal thing” for man to think in terms of “restitution” or “making up for” what is owed. But God doesn’t think that way, at least not according to what God has revealed to us in His Word. That is the entire idea of the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant, and is contrary to “by grace you have been saved, not of works.”


“Are we somehow to believe that we need to do nothing to recieve His forgivness.”

Yes. The only thing that we need to “do” is to believe in Jesus and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.


“Do we not also have to show good faith in the wonderful gift that he freely gives?”

No, we don’t have to “show” anything. All we have to is to believe.


“To do otherwise is an insult and an affront to the mercy and grace that He so freely imparts.”

Perhaps the “insult and affront” is thinking that we can, or must, DO anything other than to believe. We cannot “merit” God’s forgiveness. That is WHY Jesus had to come and die in our place.


“How much must our Savior bear?”

He bore it ALL. That is the purpose of His incarnation and death.


“How many times can we continue to recrucify our Lord, before the Father's hand falls on us all. His bitter cup of justice is overflowing now. Which of us will share His cup????”

All those who do not accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior WILL “share the cup of God’s wrath against sin.”

“Recrucifying” our Lord is precisely what the RCC teaches in their “Mortal Sins” doctrine.


“Yes, I am adomant that we must turn away from our sin for the forgiveness process, to be complete.”

So am I. We are in agreement on this need for repentance, but not in agreement as you are applying it. You are applying it to a “loss of salvation” concept, and I disagree on that point. It applies with respect to our relationship with God, our walk with God, our heartfelt sorrow over, and repentance of our sins against God. In the case of an unbeliever, it means accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. In the case of backslidden believer, it means repenting of our sin and walking in humble obedience to God, NOT that we had “lost” our salvation and need to “crucify” Jesus again to “regain” our salvation. THAT, Scripture teaches, is an impossibility.


“To assume otherwise is to forget that our God is also a God of Justice!!”

God IS a God of Justice. That was the POINT of the need for Christ(Messiah), and that Jesus paid the price demanded by God’s justice regarding sin, FOR us, so that HIS righteousness can be imparted to us and so that God the Father can “stamp” us justified and our “debt paid in full” by Christ, we “owe” nothing. That IS the grace and mercy of God toward all believers.


“Thus far, we have beeen blessed to see only his mercy and forgiveness, but I ask you, what will we see on His glorious day of judgement.”

We shall see God. And we shall see the “books” opened and everyone judged. Anyone whose name is not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity and those whose names are written in the Book will be with God for all eternity.


“Notice, I did not quote anything from scripture.”

I did notice. I did not take offense. As believers we know that the Word of God is authoritative and is where we are to turn whenever there is question or disagreement in thoughts or feelings, traditions or teachings, between believers. It is not necessary to “quote Scripture” to state a thought or feeling, but it is necessary to evaluate those thoughts and feelings, traditions and teachings, against what God has revealed to us in His Word.


God bless.

BK, if you truly want to DISCUSS differences in beliefs, I will be happy to talk with you about them and offer WHY I believe what it is that I believe. But I will have no intention of answering you while you are taking an abusive position.

So let me simply answer your two questions in this quotation and that's all I'm going to do at this point.

Yes, BK, it was because of faith. This passage is talking about the final judgment went those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are separated from those whose names are NOT written in the Book. The "sheep" go with the Shepard for all eternity, the others go to the Lake of Fire.

I have no doubt that you are basing your question on the idea of being "blotted out." We can discuss that if you'd like, but I do mean DISCUSS, if that is what you'd like.

BK - Does this question mean that you now DO want to discuss the doctrine of Eternal Security? You have steadfastly refused to discuss it before, have you changed your mind and want to discuss it now?

And the very day a liar accepted Christ into his/her life...he/she became white as snow... the VERY NEXT he/she lied again "he/she" once again returned to sin.

Your point is what, MEDC?

Are you arguing for a "loss of salvation" because of any sin committed after receiving Christ? Are you saying that "once a liar always a liar" barrs someone from salvation?

Or are you saying that God didn't really mean that ALL of a persons sins are forgiven in Christ?

I'm not particulary fond of Jacob for example, or what he did, but he was CHOSEN by God for God's purposes and my "liking it or not" isn't an issue. It may be "my problem," but it's not God's problem.

So I'm really trying to understand your concept of the Sovereignty of God and God's prerogative to "forgive" as He said He would and His prerogative to have "mercy on whom He will have mercy."

God bless.

FH is doing a great job, IMO so far. I just wanted to chime in with a couple of small things here.

First, when we accepted Christ, we were grafted into God's family. My oldest son is mine, not biologically, but by adoption when I met my wife when he was 3 months old. Now, when my son sins against me, is it possible for me to deny that he is my son? No it is not. No matter what he does, good or bad...he will be my son. Of course, if he is being bad, then Dad will come down hard upon him. But that in no way takes away from who he is.

God says the same thing about believers. Unbelievers are not in the family. Believers are. When believers misbehave (sin), God (Dad) has His ways of dealing with that. But that does not mean we are no longer His sons or daughters. The Prodical Son is a great example of this.

The second thing I wanted to mention was that of what FH was talking about earlier concerning earning salvation. When Christ hung on that Cross, He saw every sin that I would ever commit. He died to pay for every one of my sins. He did so while I was yet a sinner...even long before I was born.

Once I accept Jesus and His sacrifice, I have accepted that He died for all of my sins. That I neither deserved nor merited what He did. That the point was to focus on Him...not on me.

All sins must be paid for. All of them! What does God say the payment is for even the simplest or smallest of sins? Death. Death is what God demands as payment for sin.

So, I get saved at 15. Then, at 15 plus one hour, I commit the sin of lying. How am I to pay for that sin? To repent? Well sure, I am commanded to repent...but that still doesnt deal with the payment of the sin. God didnt say repentence pays for sins...He said death pays for sins.

So, the question is...once I am saved and I sin (and we all do), then what is it I must do to pay for the sin? Well, I must die. So, in this example, Jesus saved me from my sins before...but now I sinned and now I must die. Thus, what Jesus did on the Cross was not enough. And there is no man that makes it to Heaven because we will all be having to pay the death penalty of our sins...even believers.

Or maybe Scripture is saying it is another way. Maybe what it is saying is that Jesus paid for all sins on the Cross...even my lying an hour after being saved. Maybe that sin of lying was paid for by Him and the death penalty that must be paid for that sin was already paid by Him.

Well, then...that means that a believer that needs to repent from his/her sins means something entirely different. It doesnt mean I have to pay for that sin with my death...Jesus did that already. It now means that God will deal with me as a member of the family. That I must repent...or get back in line with the "rules of the house." It also means that should I continue to sin, that would be called rebellion, and Hebrews 10 is very clear on how God deals with rebellion by believers.

But nowhere in there does it say that a person that has been saved, must now have their new sins paid for. That negates the Cross and makes it all based on us. Or, we have to keep hanging Jesus up there again when we sin again in order to have the death penalty paid.

Anyway, there is my two cents!

FH...if God's law was that adulterers would be put to death... why didn't David suffer this consequence? Why were there stand ins for his crimes???? Simple enough question FH???

And if you had read my posts, you would see that I am NOT advocating death for adultery....but it WAS the law at the time that others were held to. Why not David??? Power and privilege??? Why was the just punishment that was established by our Lord not carried out on a repeat sinner???

And my point is that you question me about here is plain to just about everyone but you... JJ is continuing her sin. Just because she WAS forgiven her sins... does not mean that she can go on sinning. I said nothing about salvation FH.... but in your mind, does a guarantee of salvation allow a person to get away with anything and imo, mock the Lord?

good explanation MM. It appears to me though by this explanation, that you impression is that repentance is not required for the forgivenss of sin....? I'm not speaking of salvation here MM....forgiveness is the focus of my question.

Hhhmmmm. If you are speaking of forgiveness in terms of salvation, then I would say that all is needed is to accept by faith what Jesus did on the Cross. The saving faith and repentence done at the moment of salvation is all that is needed to gain entrance into Heaven.

In order to receive forgiveness in the fact that punishment in this life for believers MAY be abated and/or blessings being given, then yes...a believer must repent and seek forgiveness. Without that, then they are in rebellion. And there will be no blessings forth coming. And God will not hear that believer's prayers. And God may even intervene and "spank" the believer.