I find it very odd that this whole notion of forgiven seems very...selective.

I really don't distinguish between an affair "marrage" and a homosexual "marriage".

Both are certified and sanctioned by law and thus meet the "requirements" to qualify. [Why would the man/woman standard apply to a greater degree than "already in a covenant"]

Both are sexually immoral.

So if a post salvation life change MUST include leaving the homosexual lifestyle it must then ALSO include leaving an affair marriage because imo...either both can be covered under the forgiveness..oops my sins are as far from me as east is from west and by the way I am white as snow my salvation isn't about works dontja know...or both can not.

If a person...FH in this instance agreed with that stance then although I disagree I wouldn't really bother to point out my own issue...but the inconsistencies are hard to ignore.

Affair marriage transformed to real marriage and white as snow...homosexual marriage...not.

Why?

GREAT point Noodle.

First off, homosexual "marriage" isnt a marriage. You cant marry a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. Just as you cant marry a woman and a horse. Marriage is between a man and a woman, as defined by God. So, we cant even get to the rest of your question because this is an apples and oranges thing.

On the subject of transforming an affair marriage to a real marriage, that has been the main subject of most of the posts on this thread. In JustJilly's case, he first marriage is over. It has been broken. It has been broken because her husband decided on and was a part of divorce (I cant remember if he remarried or not).

Scripture states that a marriage isnt over until death. If our spouse dies, we are free to remarry. But what about Biblical divorce? Where is the death there?

Well, God goes on to say that if an unbeliever wants to leave a believer, then let them go. That unbeliever is "dead" anyway, and the believer is called to live in righteousness.

The other "death" is the one outlined when a spouse commits adultery. When that happens, Scripture allows the BS to decide if they want to let the marriage die after going thru the process of reconciliation (as outlined in Matthew). If the WS, after being confronted by the BS, by those from the church and by being brought before the church, will not repent...then they are to be treated as if they are "dead." This releases the BS from the marriage covenant if they choose to leave it.

Once the marriage bond is broken...it is broken. Once my sife dies, my marriage ceases to exist. Period. Once JustJilly's marriage died (when her husband agreed to a divorce), it ceased to exist because the BS had decided to end the marriage (notice I didnt say the WS has any authority to end the marriage. If a WS tries to divorce a BS, and the BS will not particiapte in that...then the marriage still exists! No matter what the court says. Only a BS has the right to divorce).

So, since her husband has agreed and has divorced her (as her current husband's wife did also), then both of those marriages have ceased to exist. They are dead.

Once the covenant is broken, it no longer applies. Which means JustJilly can remarry someone that is not married.

Now, since this relationship started with adultery, it is almost certain (unless God decides to give some measure of grace) that it will suffer some consequences for as long as it exists. God is very clear on this.

But it is a marriage, nonetheless.

Remember, God has the same penalty for sin...every sin! Did any of you have sex with your spouse before you were married? Then you were guilty of fornication, a sexual sin punishable by death (all sin being punishable by death). So, all of the marriages that started with pre-marital sex are just as guilty as all marriages that began with adulterous sex.

Again, I want to make this clear. If JustJilly's husband had wanted to continue to remain faithful to the marriage and not agreed to divorce, then JustJilly would still be married to him in God's eyes, and she would be living in an adulterous relationship right now. But from what I have read here, that is not the case.

MM... yes ... two men can be married in some places... call it what you will... but the powers that have been allowed to be installed by God have permitted gay marriage in some places. And people that are not Christian are married every single day MM... they do not require God's definition of marriage...but Noodles point is... does their marriage become transformed when they turn to Christ??? It really is no different than the sexual sins of infidelity (as recognized by the required punishments in Leviticus).

Okay MEDC, I’m hearing a sincere desire to try to understand this concept of the forgiveness of sin and repentance, so let me try to address your questions. If they suffice, fine. If not, then ask more questions to get to the “root” of the issue.

Let me begin (and I’ll have to ask you for your forgiveness in advance because I know you like “short” answers and this one might be a little “longer”) by speaking to the general subject of forgiveness of sin and then I’ll get to your specific questions about David.

There are many “types” of forgiveness (such as “love covers over a multitude of sins) but they can be grouped under two primary “headings.”

1). Forgiveness that results in justification before God, i.e. salvation of our souls and “right standing” before God. This is what occurs when a nonbeliever accepts Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and Savior, surrendering their self to God. Going “hand-in-hand” with this how we “get” the ability to even accept Christ. This part we’ll leave alone for now, but it involves the depravity of man, “free will,” and election. We can come back to that at some later time if you’d like.

This forgiveness of sin is a “once for all time” forgiveness. Our names are found (not written at that time) in the Lamb’s Book of Life, never to be blotted out. We are secured by Christ’s blood and sealed for all eternity by the Holy Spirit. A truly born again believer can never lose their salvation. They CAN “arrive” in heaven “by the skin of their teeth,” so to speak, with no “good works” to be accounted any “rewards” or “rank” other than being in heaven rather than tossed into the Lake of Fire with the “goats.”

2). Forgiveness of sins we commit is part of the ongoing process that a work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life. First comes awareness of the sin, second comes conviction that it is a sin against God, third comes confession of that sin to God, fourth comes repentance (heartfelt sorrow for sin) of the sin. We ask God to forgive our sin, knowing that He already DID forgive it when Jesus died. We also are to ask for forgiveness from whomever we sinned against if the sin also affected someone else. Fellow believers are required by God to forgive a brother/sister in Christ when they tell us that they have repented of the sin the committed against us and ask us to forgive them. There is NO requirement for the “sinner” to DO anything other than to ask for our forgiveness, and our only “non-sinful” response is to grant forgiveness.

This is the concept that Jesus was outlining for us in the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. We, who have ourselves, been forgiven a “sin debt” by God that was so HUGE in comparison to what someone else “owes us” from their sin against us, are commanded to “do as the Master has done for us” and forgive with NO requirement for restitution or any other act on the part of the one we are forgiving.


So “in answer” to your question to MM (my “2 cents worth” if you’ll allow me to butt in on your question to him), I think repentance IS required for forgiveness, but not “doing” something. Something may indeed be done, but that is on the part of the one who is being forgiven, as a result of their sorrow over what they did, not as a “requirement” to be forgiven. Bob Pure, for example, has repeatedly used the scenario of a thief who stole money and that giving the money back is “required.” I would contend that giving the money is not “required” for the sin of thievery to be forgiven, but would be the “right thing to do” for the thief. They are not married to the money and it is a “material” possession. Repentance for the believer is needed because helps us to “walk with God” spiritually, recognizing the sin AS a sin against God first and foremost. This is part of the “Sanctification Process” that all believers are guided in through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Now if you want to say that Repentance on the part of a believer is a “work,” I won’t quibble with you in that ALL believers are appointed to do the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do. But that “work” plays no part in salvation, it is the outworking of our love and gratitude TO God for what He did for us in the indescribable cost to Himself that He paid for us, in order to bring us to salvation in the first place. We are “motivated,” if you will, to be humbly obedient to God because of the “new heart” that He gave us. When God tells us to “go and sin no more,” He KNOWS that we cannot do that because we are not “perfect” yet and we still struggle with sin, or the propensity to sin, on a daily basis. What God is telling us is that our “goal” is perfection, as Christ was perfect, in order for us to conform our lives more and more to the “model” of perfection that Jesus was, and is. That is why ALL of a believer’s sins were forgiven when Christ took them on Himself and died (paid the just penalty for sin) for us. The repentance we “do” is part of the “training in righteousness” process that we all undergo as we are made aware of sin in our lives. That happens because a believer KNOWS just how HUGE any sin is to God, and we KNOW that our sin was “another nail” in Jesus that we ourselves drove into Him as He hung on the Cross. God, in His mercy, does not require us to commit a sin in order to be forgiven of another sin, He would never tell us to sin as a way to “prove” the sincerity of our repentant heart. God KNOWS our heart and that is what He looks at for “confirmation” that our repentance is “heartfelt” and “real.”


As I have said before, there are also some consequences of some sins that “cannot be undone” or that may take a long to “get past.” It is WHY we are warned to not sin, because God established “consequences” for sin. The FIRST consequence is death, eternally separated from God and eternal existence in the Lake of Fire. That “consequence” God releases a believer from the moment that they accept Christ.

Other consequences that affect our “temporal life” here on earth may, or may not, be able to be “released” from. “Small sins,” for example, fall under the “Love covers over a multitude of sins” sort of thing. “Bigger sins” may have shorter-term consequences, longer-term consequences, or even lifetime consequences that we must live with.

Some examples (assume repentance and forgiveness has taken place):

Someone stole money from you. You may still have to go to jail for a while.

You divorced and left your former spouse with small children. You may have to pay child support for years.

You got pregnant, or made someone pregnant, while having an affair. The child will still be there for “lifetime” and so may “difficulties” that attend to that “un do-overable” sin.

You divorced your spouse and married someone else, including an “affair partner.” The old marriage is “dead” and (biblically speaking, the former BS is not supposed to take you back even if your current spouse were to die). God does NOT “require” that you commit another sin of divorce in order to “make restitution” to Him for having committed the sin of adultery. What God says is, “no more adultery” (sex outside of marriage). God forgave the sin of adultery along with every other sin and the “condition of adultery” no longer exists in God’s eyes.

Now I understand that it is this last part that has several people in an uproar and demanding that someone in an “affair marriage” MUST divorce in order to “prove their repentance of the sin of adultery is real.” Adultery and Divorce ARE “serious business” in God’s eyes, make no mistake about that. If ALL marriage is “marriage” between a man and a woman, then a “one flesh” union has been created. If someone wants to argue that an “affair marriage” is NOT a marriage, then I’d like to see his or her reasoning on that because it IS a marriage no matter how it was formed. When God cautions us against divorcing and remarrying because of the potential of causing adultery to be committed with the “new spouse,” it is the Adultery that is the “problem,” not that the marriage itself doesn’t exist.

So now we arrive at the “microcosm” of JJ’s current marriage. It IS a marriage. To divorce for any reason other than another adultery would be to commit another sin. God will not, in my humble opinion, tell anyone to commit a sin to give the appearance of having “repented” of their original sin. That is something that Satan would say, but not God. As God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son, God had no intention of allowing Abraham to actually commit the sin of murder. What God was looking at was Abraham’s heart, who it was that Abraham “valued most” and was Abraham “willing” to give up everything, including His Son, if that was what God asked of him simply because God is Sovereign Lord over all. No doubt Abraham also believed that if God actually allowed him to kill Isaac, God could, and would, restore Isaac to life simply because God had promised to make him a father of nations, through Isaac. God also does not tell anyone to commit adultery, despite what some Wayward Spouses think.

So let’s take the JJ situation and look at it in a “different light” for a minute.

Let’s assume that someone who is NOT a believer has married and divorced for “irreconcilable differences”(the reason of choice these days). They then remarry someone and form a “new marriage.” It is now 10 years into this new marriage and they come to MB looking for help and advice and they, in the course of answering questions from other members, reveal the fact that they were previously married and left that marriage in divorce. Is our advice to them to divorce should them come here looking for help because their current spouse has now cheated on them? What if they left their first marriage because they were “playing around” and thought the “grass was greener” outside of that first marriage? Would we then tell them to divorce their current spouse because they are living in an adulterous marriage? What if their current spouse also happened to be the one, or one of, the “affair partners” he/she had while still married to their first spouse? Would we tell them to divorce as the ONLY way to handle their situation?

What would we tell those same people if they became believers while in their 2nd, 3rd, etc. marriage? Would we tell them that the only way to “prove” they were truly repentant for their sins is to divorce and either remarry their first spouse or remain unmarried? Is God’s forgiveness of sin “conditional” upon what we DO to “earn” forgiveness or is it “unconditional” and available to anyone who simply believes in, and accepts, Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Does God tell us to “go back in time” and undo what has been done? Or does God tell us to go forward from this day, “dressed in whatever clothing we currently have,” attempting to live our lives in humble obedience to Him, forgiven of all our past sins, declared innocent and a “new creation” in Christ?


Okay, this post has gotten longer than I thought it would, so I’ll end it here and will compose another post to address your questions about David.

God bless.

Thank you. That's what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way.

In opposition to what God told them to do! There is much that governments do today that is in direct violation of God. The Holocaust happened under a government program! It doesnt mean God sanctioned genocide.

It doesnt matter what they think they require. This thread has to do what God has to say on the matter, not what man has to say. What man has to say is irrelevent in the final argument because ALL marriages (Christian or unbeliever) will be judged by the same standard.

No, their marriage isnt transformed. THEY are transformed. Thus, everything in their life will change. The marriage changes because they changed. The marriage wasnt "transformed" on its own!

You are speaking of homosexual sins? Sure. Infidelity, beastiality, homosexuality, fornication, etc all are sexual sins. But sex (no matter what type) does not define a marriage. A marriage is a joining of a man and a woman. This is what God says. In actuality, marriage defines sex. Sex that is acceptable with God is that between a married man and woman. All other forms of sex are not.

Again, sex does not define marriage. No matter what kind of sex is involved.

FH... thanks for the reply. I appreciate your response... but in my opinion... JJ is continuing in her sin and her M is no more credible than that of a gay couple. They are both abominations and my view of repent is obviously different than yours....and my pastor has clearly spoken on this subject.... repentance requires turning away from your sin. Jesus was clear on this point as well when he said to Mary M... "sin no more." He was clearly telling her to turn from her sin... to do otherwise, she would be mocking the Lord.... just as JJ has done.

FH... two non believing MEN are married....it happens...
if they turn to Christ, is the sin of their continued relationship as a gay couple wiped clean???

Simple question that has not been answered directly....

If an affair M can acceptable... why not a gay marriage?

Oh, I get this FH...it means God allowed it though. I never said sanctioned.

Disagree MM. I haven't seen any evidence that JJ was released from her bond although her H was.

There is an awfull LOT of scriptural suuport re: the ws IS bound until the bs dies...not until they divorce... and if the ws remarries it is adulterous..operative word being IS not was or began as.

So her "marriage" while state sanctioned was not a "marriage" but an act of sin...the marriage itself was an act of sin and rebellion no different from homosexual marriage at all in any context.

So either all sin is forgiven and the marriage transformed in every case or it is not.

We can't pick and choose right?

I see a loooooot of effort going into trying to force scripture to support what it clearly does not..even the strongest defending example differs in several areas and is very grey and questionable in and of itself with regard to the conclusions being drawn.

Would you support a homosexual marriage post salvation or tell them to leave their sin behind them?

It's either cleaned or it isn't...if it isn't then clearly not ALL sins are transformed though they may be forgiven..and that being the case...

Well, that being the case you really don't have a leg to stand on imo.

I have seen page after page of arguament..several clear and direct passages of scripture that oppose this position and none at all that directly support it without a great willingness to suspend disbelief and leave rational behind.

Because there is no such thing in God's eyes as a gay marriage. You cant marry two men. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Period.

What the two men have is a homosexual relationship...not a marriage. Thus, they are to repent of the sin of homosexuality. They are not guilty of adultery, unless one of those two men is married to a woman.

agreed.

Noodle - the "short answer" is because God, not Man, established marriage and He established it as comprising a man and a woman. Any other "arrangement" God "could" have chosen if that were God's will, but He did not.

Furthermore, God has clearly stated that "lieing with a person of the same sex" is an abomination to God. No "abomination" is "okay" with God, regardless of what mankind may choose to believe as justification or rationalization of their sin.

God bless.

HE ALSO DEFINED WHAT JJ IS DOING AS AN ABOINATION! THAT IS THE POINT HERE.

God also established that a person who is already married can't be married to someone new FH.

If being forgiven has the power to transform one it has the power to transform the other unless you can prove otherwise.

I see a tendancy to evade the question rather than look at it directly.

A marriage between two same sex partners is a sin not a marriage.

Agreed.

A marriage between two people who are already married is a sin not a marriage...

Not agreed?

Noodle... ever get the feeling that you are banging you head against a wall? Me too!

What about when Scipture says that a spouse can let the unbliever go, even if there is no adultery? Where is the death there? The death is in the fact that the unbeliever is already dead. So, God will recognize the marriage ending because of spiritual death. Same goes for adultery! Once a believer is declared "dead" (spiritually), then the BS is free to be remarried, only in the Lord. So, what of the WS?? Are they still confined to a covenant that has been declared dead by God? No they are not. The covenant no longer exists.

This is a legal matter. The covenant (contract) states "until death do us part." Thus, only death can end a marriage. I nthe case of a spouse dying, than all of us can understand this. But, God allows divorce in the case of adultery and in the case of an unbeliever leaving a believer. Well, if God stated that the only reason for the end of marriage is death...but then goes on to allow the ending of the contract/covenant due to these other two reason that dont involve physical death, then is God being contradictory?

Of course not! There are two kids of death, Scripturally. Physical and spiritual. Most people on this planet are spiritually dead. We were born that way!!

In this case, God is allowing the end of the marriage covenant due to death. Spiritual death. Which means, the covenant no longer exists. Which means, just as in David's case, he could move on in his marriage to Bathsheeba....since his adultery had been paid for by the death of his children. And, since Uriah was dead, that marriage no longer existed.


There is no such thing as homosexual marriage. You can only marry a man and a woman! Marriage is not a sex act. It is a joining in covenant of a man and a woman. If they are no longer held under a current marital covenant (contract) then they are free to marry. The question here is are they still under the previous contract? And the answer is no, according to Scripture. The contract was broken due to the spiritual death of the WS and God ratified the decision of the BS to rip up that contract. Once a contract is declared dead, or null and void...it is null and void to all of tha parties involved!


Sure. But again, men cant marry men. So forgiving a repentent ex-homosexual doesnt allow him to continue having homosexual sex.

I would say the same for your position.

There is no such thing as homosexual marriage. How can I support something that doesnt exist?

You cant "clean" a homosexual marriage, because there is no such thing.

And I would say the same for your position. Unfortunately.

Me too!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No He did not.