NICE!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> My father died in 1996 and left his boat uncovered (Bayliner). My mom didnt know what to do with it, so the insides are pretty much toast.

A brother of mine and me have started ripping out much of the carpet, wood, leather, etc inside so we can refurbish it. Gonna take soem work...but will be nice to get it back into the water.

MEDC - I am impressed by your research and your fairness in providing the link.

There remains, as I am sure you know, much variation in opinions "out there." They ALL stress the high regard that God places in marriage. I have read many of them and after a while my "head starts to swim" from all the postings.

Sometimes I think (not really, but when I hit information overload it looks appealing) that perhaps the RCC "answer" to the issue of 2nd, 3rd, etc. marriages is to declare the previous marriage non-existant (annulment). If a previous marriage could be made to just "go away" there would be little problem, if any, with a subsequent marriage.

Hope your boat painting is going well and that you'll have her back in the water soon!

About moving JJ around...she has two threads she posts to...her boundaries for herself.

This one and the Villagers one.

She's had this one since last August...and for months, you guys (specifically Bobpure, MEDC, BigKahuna, MrsW) didn't mind the "JustJilly Begin Again" popping up. MrW said he'd wait and see, after the initial attacks...and yes, I believe they are attacks, a joint effort. With an agenda.

I had not read or posted on MB for many months prior to April this year. I left in fact because of the offence I took from having this affair mariage "legitimised" on the main page of a forum for heartbroken victims of adultery. I want this taken somewhere more discrete. You receive that as an attack, well, you are much more sensitive than I am, clearly.

I don't see JJ's choice of staying here and on Villagers, which is what she has been doing since last August, as flaunting, taunting or entitlement through discounting other BS's possible feelings.

I see it as exactly as flaunting, taunting". Jilly admits she knows some or many are hurt by her presence here, and she continues anyway. That is indecent IMO.

You want Quiet Corner as a compromise to shield BS's from pain...which is a DJ to BS's because not one of you in this group is a BS...you are FBS or RBS. Your partners (if you have one right now) are not in active affairs...more like, long-term recovery.

You are not experiencing present pain from this thread...you may well be triggering to before, remembering what you felt, your fears and ensuing pain from those fears.
They weren't realized. They did not come to pass, unless I'm missing MEDC...and I do not remember if he was married...My apology, MEDC.

So....just like you once told me, baldly, that my wife's pollution of our clean marriage was a "wonderful gift" you now feel equipped to tell me authoritively what I am, and how I feel ? You are amongst the least qualified people on God's green earth to tell me credibly what I am and what I feel, LA.

You have repeatedly stated your beliefs...and been heard, read, considered...so everything past those statements is coersion...your efforts to get a result, rather than act from your code. I see this as being: Until JJ decides to divorce from her A marriage of 12 years, rendering apart the intact family for her 7-year-old daughter and older stepson...then you will not stop in your attacks.

Wrong. I only want JJ and her supporter to display some humankindness by taking this controversial and hurtful debate somewhere more quiet. I couldn't care less about JJ , or her affair H. I DO care about people ina place where I have previously been. My heart goes out to them. I suspect that is your motivation to "defend" JJ too.

That's what I'm seeing right now.

You did choose to ignore this thread. Then you began again, yourselves. I was not here for MONTHS. Had I been here I would have continued trying to persuade JJ and her supporters to move somewhere quiter. It was not me that made this into a affair-marriage argument. I can imagine how you identify with JJ, and your own fear of ostracization probably drives your fury against me here. I believe it is indignation by proxy. See? I can make assumptions about YOU just as you have about me.


I see from you great disrespect...permission to define, DJ, disparage, discount and act abusively. No good witnessing to my perception...and if she will not leave MB...or divorce her WH, then she can leave this thread holding her history, her story, her background...and begin again, in the quiet corner...because you all will not stop your attack until she does.

such drama....all JJ has to do is discuss this controversial stuff in a quiet corner, but NO you would have us all endure a forced lesson in acceptence of affair marriages.

And this helps BS's how, exactly? To learn that mob rules? So when their in-laws and family and friends turn on them for exposure...they would be wise not to stand their ground? Majority rules? When they have WS's with new friends telling the BS that they're wrong, go ahead and let them go, divorce...because it's uncool to fight for their marriage...then listen to those people...there's more than one saying the same thing...does that make them right and the BS's choices wrong?

That the vets of this board are this powerful? This persistent? That their reasoning...their ASSUMPTION that JJ is here to flaunt through entitlement the anatomy of an A marriage...which proves the rule TRUE? That it is full of fantasy...even after 12 years...long after the normal A-life of two or three years? That's how long the wayward state of mind can and will persist until it is dissected, owned and understood...then changing that mindset with healthy boundaries, to not build resentment into entitlement through lack of respect. That's part of JJ's story...and a lot more in there.

That it isn't about the BS at all...A's are, as JJ said, about this fantasy...looking to be cured by another...that people aren't replaceable? They can't be? And this hurts the BS how?

I am a BS and it hurts me. Other Bs have read this and are hurt too. You would deny this?

Are you guys truly willing to stand by your perspective that BS's are weak, don't know what to think, how to feel and that there is MORE room for a perfect, unrelated stranger to HARM THEM? Their heart is FULL of pain...like nitrogen filling a room...if there is no more room for air, for pain...and your judgment is that they are feeling more pain, right now, and JJ's doing it to them from entitlement?

For a time, when I almost died from betrayal, yes I was weak, didn't know what to think, or how to feel, and yes unrelated strangers could harm me. And I have seen that phase in almost every BS I ever saw on these boards. You never experienced that ? Well if so you ar eblessed and it shows your different exprience of betrayal IMO. You sure love that " nitrogen" quote LA. Where did you read it ? Its drivel, IMO, but you sure like it.

Could this be a signal to your own entitlement to abuse?
Abuse ? Asking people to take a hurtful thread somewhere quiter is abuse ?

How does this respect BS's like yourself? Who have been brave, true, strong, through ownership, clarity and held to their own goal to save the marriage...to do the plans, know and understand themselves, their own choices?

If you knew MIKE ( click here) was reading here tonight, would you be happy for him to read something that seemed to legitimize an affair marriage ? Can you be sure that a Mike is NOT reading here tonight ? Not all BS can slay the dragon.

The biblical quotes I read above say that the BS has the right to divorce their WS...spiritually and lawfully. That means that if the BS remarries, they will not be adulterers nor make their WS's adulterers if they remarry.
And an equal number of bible quotes appear to indicate the reverse

And in there lays the grace which you extended, through your own choices as BS's...and MrsW, I believe you received in full magnitude...which owning made your recoveries possible. That and WS's choosing the marriage, not to leave for OP.

All that is already lost to JJ...she knows it, her H knows it...and she is working through these very tough issues, to get to her own place of understanding...and right now, destroying another marriage to appease you guys would be far more criminal, cause MORE harm to innocents...right now.

I have never called for JJs divorce. Just that this discussion be moved somewhere quieter

The reader's choice. And now you are back with what I see as your pitchforks and torches...
You are such a drama queen LA. Adds nothing helpful to the cause of taking this debate elsewhere or staying here IMO

In the name of Christ...please stop. I believe others are learning A LOT from you...Notonlywords on the other flamed thread stated her beliefs (I'm sorry, NOW...I forget right now if you're a she or a he, please forgive my pronoun if it's imprecise) and then retracted in a way...and she's back here, stating them again...with full heart, learning more...investigating and presenting in the same vein FH, MEDC, MM do...from scripture...to find what she believes and is sharing it. That's a blessing, a bold, beautiful, brave blessing to me.

NOW is a lovely person whom I once knew well along with her H, and she had the grace to agree that this discussion should be moved elsewhere because of the hurt it could cause to vulnerable BS and wavering new FWS. She said so on the now closed thread. She clearly has a heart of compassion for BS. I do not see such manifested in Jilly, nor in you LA.

Very difficult for me to do, as well...to seemingly go up against others who are/were my heroes...my leads...paved the way to my own healing...learning...growing and ownership. I'm doing it now because to go along to get along is as much a sin as denying Jesus.

My own actions towards this endeavour are ALSO from my compassion for suffering people. I would also claim that for me to do nothing to avoid hurting the vulnerable is unChristian. So who is right, you or me?

And he who did that was forgiven. Three times. And we don't know if he truly stopped...isn't reported...and I have no doubt that God forgave each individual time, for that day, because he made us whole and complete...not perfect. This isn't a bankrobbery and giving back the money...and our Lord knows it isn't convenient. It's a struggle, involving a lot of layers...all the way down to JJ's soul...and she's brave enough to be here, open and honest, and looking for a new way to live...new beliefs to act from, instead of her feelings.

Look to yourselves, are you really this brave? What looks cut and dried for you...picture yourselves in her shoes, with your partners right now...there are many, many BS here who are on their second, third, fourth marriages...not even married...all in violation of the scripture you quoted.

I believe that JJs "marriage " is an ongoing affair - the nadir of every BS' situation. If affair marriages are OK, why do we consider adultery wrong ? Seriously. Think about it. If they can be legitimised by the BS divorcing the WS, why is there any secular fuss about adultery, and why all the special focus on sexual sin in scripture, however confusing some of that may be? And this is EXACTLY a bankrobber living high on his loot.Exactly analogous.

Are they to be driven from MB, as well? They divorced their first spouses, not due to infidelity...due to resentment, entitlement and they replaced and replaced. They divorced from abuse...are they adulterers? Because beating your wives was okay in the Old Testament, under the law.

I never even INFERRED this. FH invented that I said this in a previous thread but I never did.

And what you are doing here with your "how convenient" and "she doesn't care" "she feels entitled" and such, is demeaning, defining and damaging--same present right now, on this thread, as was in some of your divorces from your first marriages...and you are here. Judging.


Which is why Jesus said look to your own soul...and what you do to others, you do to yourself...your spouses, your children...what you permit yourself to do here, to others who are not in your real life, is included. You gave yourselves that permission...that license...to disrespect.

My conscience is clear regarding my actions towards jilly and FH through this mess. I have been attacked, slandered, even had words invented that I never said all because I saw an opportunity to avoid some needless heartache of the vulnerable.
In good conscience I could not avoid asking JJ and FH to move these threads somewhere quieter.


What God brings to us, he'll bring us through...and I believe, each and everyone of us has lessons to learn from this thread...where your fears are, how much fear gives you permission to cross your own boundaries...where you haven't fully healed...and where you will block others from healing...she's staying on two threads only...and that's not far enough because you see JustJilly come up on the Topics list...has her name in it...a trigger...and you trigger in real life to trauma you experienced in it...not others making you trigger...you own your triggers.

Why are JJs "needs" to legitimze her a in a public forum for the vulnerable more important that the needs of those many vulnerable? Why would JJs cause be diminished by discussing this discretely ?

Not here...you want her to stop as if she's triggering you...you've made her your cause, control and cure for something in your own life...and you make this human woman into a symbol, dehumanize her and empower her where she has no power.

enormous rambling assumption on a leviathan scale. I asked her to take her thread somewhere quieter. I have no idea where you get all that pop psych nonsense from - the same book your "nitrogen" analogy comes from I guess. Legitimization of an affair marriage is MANIFESTLY hurtful to some BS, so I asked for this discussion to be moved somewhere quiter. One of the ENORMOUS NUMBER of areas that you and I differ in opinion is that I believe taking a simple action to avoid potentially hurting vulnerable folks is decent, and you clearly believe that if the vulnerable read and are hurt by this its their fault for reading. BS lose their sang-froid for a while at least, especially those undergoing their very first experience of adultery.There are many such folks on GQ2. It is DECENT to protect them for avoidable hurt IMO. You and I will most likely never agree on this, just as with almost every other topic we could discuss. That does not mean I should not state my case and seek to avoid unnecessary hurting in bystanders.

If JJ works through to divorcing her H...it will not be your doing, your victory. If she chooses not to end her 12 year marriage, that will not be your failing. It will be her life, her family...her choice. You're right...she's choosing to be married to her H today...she knows what you believe, and she believes differently, today. On this thread, she was asking many questions, exploring many beliefs...until right now. She can't get to a decision without clarity...and you won't aid her in her clarity by ramming your beliefs down her throat.

huh ? All that will happen if jj moves her thread somewhere quieter ?

God's will be done...and that occurs through us, being willing to go where we cannot see yet...to grow closer to him, to know his way...not through proof or judgment can we get there. You choose your beliefs. Choose your actions just as carefully.

Not because you'll do the unthinkable...because one of your children may end up in an A marriage, with a child or more from that marriage, and you will have brought this into your life through your choices to day...God reaches you where you are...and many of us were born of adultery...we know the suffering you are proposing for her child...the innocent...

I would once again ask that this thread be taken somewhere quieter so that JJ can get the help she desires without controversy and the vulnerable can read here without seeing a legitimzation of all they fear most. Its a humanitarian thing I ask. pour encourager les autres. Thats all.

Hey Bob! Not here to slam you! But wanted to hit on two things you said.

First, this discussion group isnt a BS-only discussion group. You know we have a bunch of WSs coming on here. Some legitamately searchign for answers. Others justifying.

But the point is that this forum is opened to all. It doesnt say "BS only."

That being said, I do understand your sensitivity towards the BSs that come on here. But in order to really do this as you want to, we would have to ban WSs from here too!

As a FBS, I can tell you that all of the posts on here I benefitted from. When I read the WS posts, it helped me understand the fog. When I read posts such as JJ's, it helped me understand the complexities of this situation, as well as possible outcomes.

So, having the discussion here is not bad in and of itself. Does it hurt to hear WSs justify their immorality? Sure. But it is necessary to understand the alien in order to deal with the alien!

Second, you stated:


You are welcome to believe this, Bob. No problem there!

But as I stated above, the only affair marriage is the one where the BS still holds onto the marriage. If the BS divorces the WS due to adultery, the marriage is ended...the covenant (contract) no longer applies to the BS and he/she is free to remarry. And, since the BS is no longer bound to a defunct contract, the WS can no longer be bound to it either.

Well MM,

That opinion is quite hotly disputed not only here but amongst scholars as well.

However I will stake my claim here.

I actually AM here in snakeville for BS's and only for them on this thread.

I regard JJ as both a lost cause and a trojan horse until her actions meet my standards to regard her differently.

However much I agree that JJ is within legal limits so to speak in being here...I also want it evidenced every few pages that this affair is NOT accepted as a marriage by all here.

If I were a new BS I would take heart in seeing the dispute and I have no problem providing it.

It's a true cross section of society. Some people..maybe even a lot of them will comply with a bold entitled in your face adulterer and tickle her ears because they WANT to believe that she is remorsefull despite the UTTER lack of such evidenced in her behavior in my judgement.

The only person whose feelings even MIGHT be at risk as a result of the debating is the person asserting her affair as legit and demanding it be accepted while showing only superficial concern that her presence might just be hurtfull to people on the brink of despair as their own spouses pursue her dream vigorously.

My level of care for her feelings mirrors her own superficial visage perfectly...if she doesn't like it she has the power to change it.

My two cents:

I heard in Divorce Care that the betrayed spouse is free to divorce and remarry, but the WS is not free to do so from a religious standpoint.

The BS has the right to forgive is they choose to. But if the WS ends the marriage against BS wishes, then BS has right to remarry with God's blessing, but WS does not.

That being said, I can't help but be happy when a person who willingly entered an affair with a married person gets everything turned around on them and they taste their own medicine. It happened to my father's mistress, whom he cheated on. I cheered him on the whole time and wanted him to cheat on her. I wanted her to suffer and suffer she did.

She "was saved" AFTER destroying my family. I found that very convinient. I'm still waiting for her to ask for my forgiveness.

I cheered my dad on when he cheated on her, but didn't openly do so. I did it inside.

After that disaster, I did indeed tell my dad he needed to change his ways if he was ever going to be happy and that we, his kids, wanted him to not do this anymore with any future wife. He's in therapy and I hope he can reform.

JJ, you reap what you sow and you got everything that was coming to you. I feel bad for your child because they are innocent, but you deserve every ounce of pain you have gotten. Sit in it. Wade in it. Learn from it.

Quit the pitty party and and the woe is me and take some responsibility. Karma is a real bit**.

Two cheaters got married and are now in shock that one of them strayed.

Absolutely nuts. This is an affair marriage. There should be no pity over its end. It was illegit from the start.

True. So are all of the opinions on here that have been stated so far.

Well, I guess I am too. But I take a special hunger for the WS that ventures here, because I think they are just as lost as the BS (of course, due to their own actions)...and if I can get them to grab their shoulders and pull down vigorously so their head will become dislodged from their waste disposal unit, then in a way, I am helping a BS. Because his or her husband/wife will benefit from this.

Fair enough. I do not see that.

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

You are entitled to that view.

But JJ doesnt fit this definition.

If this is how you view her, then fair enough. But others view her differently. I know for myself, I have yet to see any Scripture or any pursuasion by the Holy Spirit that the position you have outlined is the truth. If that happens, I of course, would change mine!

Haven't had time to read all that has gone on in this thread today, but I saw our names mentioned and wanted to comment...

MM, out of respect for YOU we kept quiet on the JJ front...You KNOW that Mr. W and I value your friendship and opinions greatly...At the time you promised a separate thread about "affair marriages" and the Bible...It never came that I am aware of...I can certainly understand why, based on all that has been going on in your life, so I'm not complaining, but just thought you should clearly understand the orgin of mine and Mr. W's "ceasefire"...Mr. W has been very busy himself lately which is the reason for his silence on this thread...He has been reading much of it though and has mentioned a few times when he had wanted to chime in and was interupted...

You know MM, there are a lot of consequences to my own affair that I, of course, live with...I don't love them, but I KNOW that they are a direct result of my own poor life choices...Perhaps one of Jilly's is the "banishment" from GQII, eh?

Mrs. W

And I believe my wife (FWS) deserves, in my opinion, the things that have happened to her because of her adultery. I could go into all of them, but suffice it to say, they are numerable and painful. And some still exist.

I believe and have said to JJ that her relationship with her current husband will likely be marred for life. Maybe not though, as God still has the right to show her grace (just as God may show my wife grace and take some of the burdens off of her that are the consequences of her adultery). But that is for God to decide.

Any penalties she is facing or will be facing will be directly related to the adultery...not her current marriage. This is not an affair marriage, because her BH divorced her. He ended the marriage. Thus, ANY marriage she had after that would be legal in God's eyes.

But He will not be mocked! He knows how the relationship began. And instead of offering grace, He may be instead allowing the penalties from the adultery to weigh on them. He still blesses the marriage. But allows some of the consequences of the previous adultery to remain. Who knows...only God does!

As I sated earlier, if God wasnt goingto bless a marriage that began as JJ's did, then He also wouldnt be blessing most of our marriages, because most of them began with sexual sin also (fornication). I believe my marriage paid a dear price because we had sex before we were married. It didnt mean we were less married...just that there were some consequences because of our disobedience.

Yes, JJ made a huge mess for herself and her family. No doubt about that!!!

You know, my heart was like yours for a long time! I used to pray EVERYDAY that God would not allow the Troll (the OM) to be saved. I wanted God to open up Heaven to everyone that repents EXCEPT him! I believed he deserved He!!.

But Jesus worked with me and helped me understand that in the end, I am no more deserving of His love and grace than the Troll. And that I had no right to expect Him to treat the Troll any differently than He treated me.

That changed my heart. I still dont like the guy. And believe me, given the opportunity, I would love to be the instrument of God's vengeance. But he is no longer my concern.

BP,

"I see it as exactly as flaunting, taunting". Jilly admits she knows some or many are hurt by her presence here, and she continues anyway. That is indecent IMO."

Is that the moral you want others to live by? Feelings are Number One? Live from them? Make your choices based on others' feelings? Live from them yourself...not from your morals? Choosing not to do the right thing...if there's pain, don't do it?

That's your measure of decency?

LA

Thanks Mrs. W. And yes, I had forgotten about that thread, as you know much was going on in my sitch and I was barely keeping my head above water at the time.

As you can see from my last post, I understand the consequences being faced. Both of you know some of the physical and emotional things that Mrs. Mortarman is going thru, which I believe are from God and are consequences of her rebellion to Him.

I too value both of your friendship and opinions as we all are 99.99% on the same sheet of music. It is here that I guess we differ!

As I stated in a few posts ago, I believe this thread and others like it are highly informational for the BS and even the WS. Sure, it is hurtful. 90% of what is written on here is hurtful! We all do not come here because things are going well.

I have a WS over on Just Found Out that I am trying to help out. She says she has ended her adultery but will not tell her husband. Of course, you know me...I am laying into her!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

But, even with her foggy views, I dont believe that she should be banished. I believe she should be brought to task on what she is doing, both as based in MB and Biblical principles.

Same goes for JJ. Again, as I stated in my other posts, I have not been convinced that anyone has provided Scriptures that prove that JJ is currently in adultery and that FWSs cannot remarry. I have seen selective application of some Scriptures. But as we all know, Scripture must be taken in its entirety. If the meaning of a particular phrase is in conflict with the rest of Scripture, then that meaning is wrong.

I have also prayed long and hard on this and have yet to hear from the Holy Spirit that the interpretation presented here by some is correct.

Again, am I saying that I cant be wrong? Of course not!! And as I said above, I will correct my position if and when the day comes that Scripture is shown and the Holy Spirit shows that the position I have is unScriptural.

But, I dont think that is really your argument here...nor BobPure's. Both of yo uare talking about the PLACE where this argument is happening. And in that, I feel that it is good to let the BS (and WS) see the good, bad and ugly of all of this. To be well informed so that they can make good decisions.

That has been my motivation in regards to this. No malice towards anyone and certainly not trying to hurt any new BSs.

I hope that explains where I am coming from!

Unless Divorce Care is wrong, it was very clear that the wayward was not free to marry with God's blessing even if the BS ended the marriage. They are the guilty party, not the innocent one.

So no, her marriage was never legit even from a biblical standpoint.

And I am sorry, but I disagree with you about people who are "saved" after they have had affairs.

I think it's their way to cover their own guilt and it is far from real belief. It's like all the criminals who find Jesus after killing a bunch of people or committing rape. Sorry, I don't buy it.

It's a CYA so they don't end up in he!! where they belong.

I have a hard time believing that someone like Hitler could be saved if he had said "I believe" right before putting a bullet in his brain.

Those words are empty if they are only said to keep themselves out of he!!.

Sorry, I'm just skeptical of those running around preaching after they have done these things. I know Saul became Paul after he had killed many. But this came after an apparition of the Man Himself telling him to stop. Who knows. Only God knows what's really in people's hearts, but I choose to remain skeptical of a person that wreaks havoc in other's lives and suddenly says they are "saved".

They may be.

If you take their view and ignore Scripture that states that the marriage is over once the BS divorces the WS. Once a contract (covenant) is null and void for one, it is null and void for all. Not that the penalties for breaking the covenant (WS) will change. But the contract no longer exists...thus there is no contract to hold anyone to.

Fair enough.

And some may be that way. But I would say there is no way you can say all of them did that. It is dangerous in getting involved in trying to determine who is saved and who isnt.

It might be. Just remember...you belong there also!! So do I. Our sins were no less than theirs!

There is a report that Jeffrey Dahmer was saved while in prison, before he died. If he was in fact saved, then he is in Heaven now. Someone once said that we will all be surprised who is in Heaven and who isnt!! Remember...every sin...every sin you have made...I have made...the OPs made...Hitler made...Dahmer made...are punishable by the same penalty. Death! Jesus said He wiped all of that away on the Cross if we will just believe and follow Him. I take Him at His word!

True. If that is what they are doing!

Are you saved? What "havoc" did you wreak in other's lives before you were saved?

You are correct...only God knows! But I do know that Jesus came to me one day and convicted me and I became saved because of that. And at the time, I deserved to be EXACTLY where Hitler is! I am no better than him without Jesus. I am no better than the Troll without Jesus.

And you are no better than JJ without Jesus. You deserve the same fate as you condemn these people to, without Jesus. So, with that said, I would just advise not to try to limit what Jesus can do and with whom. He is sovereign. He is the Lord. He can do as He pleases and grant grace upon whomever He pleases.

Please understand that I am not trying to bash you here. But I believe you are falling into the same trap I was guilty of a few years ago.

MM...

Of course I can't speak for every WS that ever comes here, but I can tell you what kind of somersaults would have been going on in my head back then if I had read about JJ's situation...

I would have read it and seen that affairs can lead to marriage-trust me I would have ignored that her marriage was now in turmoil, because as all WSs are, I was UNIQUE of course!!! Marriage is the pinnacle of the WS dream many times...There were times back then that I even looked at the odds of a marriage born of an affair working out and tried to figure a way around them...Yes, WS logic at it's FINEST!!!...I thought, "Hmmm, if Mr. W and I divorce, I wonder how long I would have to stay away from OM until it would no longer be a relationship born of an affair." Thereby making the odds of it working out better!!! Okay, obviously DUH, but that is EXACTLY what was going on behind my diabolical WS eyes at the time...I see JJ's thread here as being VERY damaging in that respect...As in, "Hey, if I make my BS miserable enough, they will divorce ME and then I am free from the convenent!"...Ahhhh...THE ULTIMATE WS LOOPHOLE!!!

I really do see it as that harmful and why I believe that helping JJ should be taken out of the infidelity "trenches"...Make sense?

Mrs. W

MM,

You wrote: “This is the question. Did JJ's marriage end, in God's eyes. Scripture says it did.”

NO! Not hardly. Scripture says quite plainly, and I quote once again:

“Mt 5 32 But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Mt 19 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Mk 10 11 And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mk 10 12 And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Lk 16 18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband, committeth adultery.”


What part of this is unclear? (Actually, it’s kind of fun quoting scripture to you guys. Watching you bob and weave like prize fighters. Dissembling, distracting, feinting, changing the subject.)

A marriage covenant is not dissolved, ever, for any reason other than the above. Anything you try to invent as justification for ending a valid marriage covenant is baseless scriptural interpretation. It is substituting something else from scripture that is irrelevant to the facts.

And further, the contract is dissolved for the BS only. Read and do not interpret the second clause in Mt 5 32, again. Marry a woman put away for adultery is yet more adultery. You cannot explain this away with other scripture. It stands above.

I could dig up numerous threads where you and FH say scripture is never to be interpreted, but ending any marriage in the way you are trying to justify is about as interpretive as you can get. Interpretive dancing, with angels, on pin-heads.

I remember threads in which both of you state categorically that only the BS can end a marriage, and the WS can never marry in the Christian church again.

I even remember a post from FH that said if the BS forgives and attempts recovery then he has forever lost this right to divorce under that instance of adultery.

I also remember a post from FH that said the Catholic Church’s doctrine of Pauline Privilege is erroneous and not scripture based. Yet here you two are, defending Pauline Privilege exactly, while pretending to call it something else. In fact what you defend is ultimately the Catholic Church’s stance on annulment. The word hypocrite again comes to mind when I read your recent posts.

You guys are making this stuff up as you go along aren’t you? Interpretive dancing indeed.


You also wrote: “...it is a wonder if someone will actually read what you said here, because of the way you ended your post. Instead of standing up and speaking of what you believe, you end with an attack upon FH.

Anyone with a communications background knows that when this is done, it is meant to shut down the conversation and to try to make whatever anyone else says afterwards irrelevent.

Instead, why don’t you just state the facts you know and your opinion and let them stand...or fall?”

I have to agree with you. I cannot discuss anything of substance with FH. I do indeed need to shut it down. Thank you for pointing that out. There is something twisted and out of kilter with FH. Like a door frame slightly askew. A dirty window partly obscuring the view into a dark room. There is wrongness in his belief that make my moral senses tingle. Sometimes his posts even seem to come from more than one person, or entities. And not good ones, either.

Thanx for noting that for me. I needed the reminder.


You know, the religious dissembling you guys are conducting here has one nice benefit. JJil is crowded out and has gone, at least for now, to the Quiet Corner.

I think it is actually FH that wants this thread kept alive. For his own reasons, I am sure.

I said this earlier on...."puteth away" does not mean the same thing as "divorce". That some translations interpret put away AS divorce is questionable. In Old Testament times, men were in the habit of "putting away" their wives for no good reason, and that is why Moses commanded them to give those wives a certificate of divorce....because unless the marriage contract was legally dissolved, they would be in effect causing her to commit adultery, should she marry someone else. That would be the same as someone these days becoming separated, but not divorced, and one or both parties marries someone else.

A marriage contract is "conditional"....even according to old testament law. As Mortarman has been trying to say, if conditions are not met...if one has an affair, then the contract has been broken and divorce is allowed.


Aphelion, you said:



This really bothers me. There is nothing FUN about seeing Christians attack each other using scriptures. Is that what YOU are doing? I do not see FH or MM doing this.
Even Satan knows scripture, and will use it to accomplish his evil. Be careful, please.

Also, the Gospel of Jesus is so incredibly RADICAL....that is why Humans have such a hard time accepting it! If someone is preaching a gospel that does NOT raise the very questions that have been asked on this thread, then they are preaching the wrong gospel!

Inherent in God's gift of grace is the potential for the abuse of it by humans. The gift of Grace does not take away our free will. There will always be some who say they can then do whatever they want because God will forgive them. But the person who truly understands and accepts His grace, whose heart and mind are in the right place would never dream of abusing it! But you and I cannot KNOW who is abusing grace and who isn't, not beyond doubt anyway. But know this....GOD KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. Grace is HIS business, not ours.

It is very hard for a person who has not been forgiven much, to appreciate, in the depths of their soul, what it really means, this gift of Grace from God. It is a grace that brings you to your knees, not one that makes you think you have a license to sin. It is a grace that makes you realize that without God, you are truly nothing.

NOW

You cannot be serious. People have left this board because of attacks by FH. FH has been merciless in his attacks on others beliefs, my own included.

I see only kindness from MM, so I do not put him into the same category as FH, whose kindness is fleeting and often departs abruptly based on his own agenda.

The "God expert" is about as godly as infidelity.
You cannot spout scripture and seeth venum at the same time...

You cannot talk of being one with God, or saved, or born again while callously offending others and their own religion and belief in God. And then call it the truth.

Ap, the reason FH sounds like his posts are from more than one person is because they are...the fundamentalists websites are rampant on the internet... giving answers and scripture backing for every single question that could come up...by "non believers", in every single subject including abortion, homosexuality, divorce, government, etc.

FH is not a cult of one, but a cult of many.

These threads are no more than a sounding board for FH, spreading his fundamentalism.

FH, there is no warmth, no kindness, no feeling of light coming from you. It is almost impossible for me to believe you have "found God". You could quote scripture until the end of time and until your words cease to cause harm to any who would disagree with you, I won't believe you are sincere and Godly.

I am sorry, but I once again see a friend hurting and angry because of you. I wish to God you would finally find the light of God, because then you wouldn't hurt anyone anymore, and I wouldn't have to feel so bad for you.

Now,

I am done with this thread. It is full of triggers and it causes me to feel fear, anger and indignation. These are my feeling, and I own them. So I will stay away.

But I do think you deserve the full context regarding the terms “put away” and divorce:

Mt 5 31 “And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. 32 But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Mt 19 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.

Mk 10 2 And the Pharisees coming to him asked him: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3 But he answering, saith to them: What did Moses command you? 4 Who said: Moses permitted to write a bill of divorce, and to put her away. 5 To whom Jesus answering, said: Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you that precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. 7 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother; and shall cleave to his wife. 8 And they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10 And in the house again his disciples asked him concerning the same thing. 11 And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

See, divorce is exactly equated with “put away” by Jesus.

Futher, Ext from Douay-Rheims Bible commentaries: "Except it be"... In the case of fornication, that is, of adultery, the wife may be put away: but even then the husband cannot marry another as long as the wife is living. And the wife commits adultery if she remarries.

The many, many theologians who have collectively thought long and hard upon this for two thousand years know and understand a great deal more than a couple of itinerant posters you will read here. Including me.

Now, there is Pauline Privilege and annulment. I think JJil could under certain exacting requirements and circumstances go this route. I have no issue with this. I do have an issue with its on again off again back door status by these guys.

Weaver,

All I can say is, God knows FH's heart...I don't. Perhaps he just doesn't have an affinity for writing in a warmer style, I really do not know. Sometimes I don't come across the way I would if I were speaking. All I really "see" is FH stating what he believes, and backing it up with scripture. I can't even begin to pretend I understand everything the Bible says, and my head swims in confusion with so many differing "opinions" and "interpretations"...it's really discouraging...so I just try to concentrate on the basics, that God loves us, He sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins.
While it is interesting to read various beliefs, it doesn't get me anywhere! Just sad.

Aphelion, thanks for taking time to write out those scriptures. There is much to think about. I sincerely wish you the best....I'm trying to stay off this thread too!

With love,
NOW

Fh,
Thank you for finding the time in your day to answer my post, I truly do appreciate your input. IMHO, you seemed to have misinterpreted my words to you. I never said that "works" could somehow gain our entrance into heaven. No person on this earth is "worthy of the kingdom of God". On that I think we fully agree.

My concern is much more about the requirements of God's forgiveness. I know you take it as a given, if you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Thus I must ask, before Jesus assended into Heaven, He told his diciples to go forth; Who so ever sins ye forgive will be forgiven in heaven, who so ever sins you retained, will be retained."

Why would Jesus even hint that sins could be retained, if it were not so? And notice that He made no distinction between believer and non believer! Thus the "I AM SAVED BECAUSE I AM A BELIEVER THEORY, kind of gets nullified by the words of Christ, himself.

MM, I can't think of a kinder or more loving person on this forum than you. Thank you so much for your input here.
I have one minor objection to something you stated. You said a M is a Covenent between a man and a women. I would take exception to the term Covernent. A covernent can only exist between you and God. Unlike vows, or promises that are broken all the time, a Covernent with God can never be Broken! We all will be held accountable on judgement day for the Covernents that we made with God. God does not allow the dissalusion of a Covernent made with HIM. We will be held accountable for any attempt to do so.

JMVHO,
All Blessings,
Jerry