About moving JJ around...she has two threads she posts to...her boundaries for herself.

This one and the Villagers one.

She's had this one since last August...and for months, you guys (specifically Bobpure, MEDC, BigKahuna, MrsW) didn't mind the "JustJilly Begin Again" popping up. MrW said he'd wait and see, after the initial attacks...and yes, I believe they are attacks, a joint effort. With an agenda.

Pep created Quiet Corner in Other Topics for her...which I see as you guys telling her "You can post here and here only...so your name doesn't show on the Topics List". Reminds me of banishment. I don't see JJ's choice of staying here and on Villagers, which is what she has been doing since last August, as flaunting, taunting or entitlement through discounting other BS's possible feelings.

You want Quiet Corner as a compromise to shield BS's from pain...which is a DJ to BS's because not one of you in this group is a BS...you are FBS or RBS. Your partners (if you have one right now) are not in active affairs...more like, long-term recovery.

You are not experiencing present pain from this thread...you may well be triggering to before, remembering what you felt, your fears and ensuing pain from those fears.
They weren't realized. They did not come to pass, unless I'm missing MEDC...and I do not remember if he was married...My apology, MEDC.

You have repeatedly stated your beliefs...and been heard, read, considered...so everything past those statements is coersion...your efforts to get a result, rather than act from your code. I see this as being: Until JJ decides to divorce from her A marriage of 12 years, rendering apart the intact family for her 7-year-old daughter and older stepson...then you will not stop in your attacks.

That's what I'm seeing right now.

You did choose to ignore this thread. Then you began again, yourselves.

Not enough to state your stuff...there is an agenda here...and it's a group agenda.

I see from you great disrespect...permission to define, DJ, disparage, discount and act abusively. No good witnessing to my perception...and if she will not leave MB...or divorce her WH, then she can leave this thread holding her history, her story, her background...and begin again, in the quiet corner...because you all will not stop your attack until she does.

And this helps BS's how, exactly? To learn that mob rules? So when their in-laws and family and friends turn on them for exposure...they would be wise not to stand their ground? Majority rules? When they have WS's with new friends telling the BS that they're wrong, go ahead and let them go, divorce...because it's uncool to fight for their marriage...then listen to those people...there's more than one saying the same thing...does that make them right and the BS's choices wrong?

That the vets of this board are this powerful? This persistent? That their reasoning...their ASSUMPTION that JJ is here to flaunt through entitlement the anatomy of an A marriage...which proves the rule TRUE? That it is full of fantasy...even after 12 years...long after the normal A-life of two or three years? That's how long the wayward state of mind can and will persist until it is dissected, owned and understood...then changing that mindset with healthy boundaries, to not build resentment into entitlement through lack of respect. That's part of JJ's story...and a lot more in there.

That it isn't about the BS at all...A's are, as JJ said, about this fantasy...looking to be cured by another...that people aren't replaceable? They can't be? And this hurts the BS how?

Are you guys truly willing to stand by your perspective that BS's are weak, don't know what to think, how to feel and that there is MORE room for a perfect, unrelated stranger to HARM THEM? Their heart is FULL of pain...like nitrogen filling a room...if there is no more room for air, for pain...and your judgment is that they are feeling more pain, right now, and JJ's doing it to them from entitlement?

Could this be a signal to your own entitlement to abuse?

How does this respect BS's like yourself? Who have been brave, true, strong, through ownership, clarity and held to their own goal to save the marriage...to do the plans, know and understand themselves, their own choices?

The biblical quotes I read above say that the BS has the right to divorce their WS...spiritually and lawfully. That means that if the BS remarries, they will not be adulterers nor make their WS's adulterers if they remarry.

And in there lays the grace which you extended, through your own choices as BS's...and MrsW, I believe you received in full magnitude...which owning made your recoveries possible. That and WS's choosing the marriage, not to leave for OP.

All that is already lost to JJ...she knows it, her H knows it...and she is working through these very tough issues, to get to her own place of understanding...and right now, destroying another marriage to appease you guys would be far more criminal, cause MORE harm to innocents...right now.

She is asking to learn and grow and know...to make that decision, from her own understanding...God touching her life, learning to hear HIS plan for her life...
Not yours. You are not GOD, as you pointed out. You have a desire easily accommodated...putting JJ on ignore. Then you will not trigger to her name, JUDGE her as acting from entitlement...which you CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW...and continue to sin repeatedly in judgment of what Jesus said you cannot judge...her thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions or perspective. Only her actions...her choice to post to FH and MM, on this thread, which MM said last August, to stay off of...and you did. Until now. Until FH made a new thread calling her out...for which, I believe, she's paid an enormous price.

And so has he, I believe. For he has received your same DJs and disparaging...defining HIS stuff...not his actions. And he is a BS. He is who you claim to be doing this for--to protect.

So they came back here...highest honesty...where nothing is hidden...her story and YOUR posts are here to be read. The reader's choice. And now you are back with what I see as your pitchforks and torches...

In the name of Christ...please stop. I believe others are learning A LOT from you...Notonlywords on the other flamed thread stated her beliefs (I'm sorry, NOW...I forget right now if you're a she or a he, please forgive my pronoun if it's imprecise) and then retracted in a way...and she's back here, stating them again...with full heart, learning more...investigating and presenting in the same vein FH, MEDC, MM do...from scripture...to find what she believes and is sharing it. That's a blessing, a bold, beautiful, brave blessing to me.

Very difficult for me to do, as well...to seemingly go up against others who are/were my heroes...my leads...paved the way to my own healing...learning...growing and ownership. I'm doing it now because to go along to get along is as much a sin as denying Jesus.

And he who did that was forgiven. Three times. And we don't know if he truly stopped...isn't reported...and I have no doubt that God forgave each individual time, for that day, because he made us whole and complete...not perfect. This isn't a bankrobbery and giving back the money...and our Lord knows it isn't convenient. It's a struggle, involving a lot of layers...all the way down to JJ's soul...and she's brave enough to be here, open and honest, and looking for a new way to live...new beliefs to act from, instead of her feelings.

Look to yourselves, are you really this brave? What looks cut and dried for you...picture yourselves in her shoes, with your partners right now...there are many, many BS here who are on their second, third, fourth marriages...not even married...all in violation of the scripture you quoted.

Are they to be driven from MB, as well? They divorced their first spouses, not due to infidelity...due to resentment, entitlement and they replaced and replaced. They divorced from abuse...are they adulterers? Because beating your wives was okay in the Old Testament, under the law.

And what you are doing here with your "how convenient" and "she doesn't care" "she feels entitled" and such, is demeaning, defining and damaging--same present right now, on this thread, as was in some of your divorces from your first marriages...and you are here. Judging.

Which is why Jesus said look to your own soul...and what you do to others, you do to yourself...your spouses, your children...what you permit yourself to do here, to others who are not in your real life, is included. You gave yourselves that permission...that license...to disrespect.

Which affects every relationship you have. God's design.

We are one...we are mankind...not God-kind. He respects us through choice...solely our own...look to your own, here. Find your shame for failing to meet your own code...find your guilt for not meeting His.

What God brings to us, he'll bring us through...and I believe, each and everyone of us has lessons to learn from this thread...where your fears are, how much fear gives you permission to cross your own boundaries...where you haven't fully healed...and where you will block others from healing...she's staying on two threads only...and that's not far enough because you see JustJilly come up on the Topics list...has her name in it...a trigger...and you trigger in real life to trauma you experienced in it...not others making you trigger...you own your triggers.

Not here...you want her to stop as if she's triggering you...you've made her your cause, control and cure for something in your own life...and you make this human woman into a symbol, dehumanize her and empower her where she has no power.

If JJ works through to divorcing her H...it will not be your doing, your victory. If she chooses not to end her 12 year marriage, that will not be your failing. It will be her life, her family...her choice. You're right...she's choosing to be married to her H today...she knows what you believe, and she believes differently, today. On this thread, she was asking many questions, exploring many beliefs...until right now. She can't get to a decision without clarity...and you won't aid her in her clarity by ramming your beliefs down her throat.

God's will be done...and that occurs through us, being willing to go where we cannot see yet...to grow closer to him, to know his way...not through proof or judgment can we get there. You choose your beliefs. Choose your actions just as carefully.

Not because you'll do the unthinkable...because one of your children may end up in an A marriage, with a child or more from that marriage, and you will have brought this into your life through your choices to day...God reaches you where you are...and many of us were born of adultery...we know the suffering you are proposing for her child...the innocent...

New question...if they divorce on these grounds of adultery...and remarry each other in the church, would their marriage be an A marriage?

LA

True. But as I outlined, there are Biblical ways to be "unmarried." Death is the prerequisite.

You cant transform something that doesnt exist. There is no such thing as a homosexual marriage, just like there is no such thing as me being married to my daughter's hamster.

Agreed. Again, the key is when the marriage ends. This is the question. Did JJ's marriage end, in God's eyes. Scripture says it did.

Actually MM...I have seen several examples of scripture that say that the WS is not permitted to remarry though the BS is.

I'm sure we could dig them up but they have been posted several times and all to no avail.

If you believe an adulterous marriage can be transformed..then I suppose your definintion of marriage must support that.

I had understood the accepted definition to be a state certified recognised marriage..that was being used right up until I asked the homosexual offshoot question.

Homosexual marriage is recognised by the state in many cases..these people are as legally married as anyone else so if you won't accept that as The qualifier any longer I guess we'll have to come up with some other rule of measure.

I don't agree that people are loosed from the bond of marriage by legal divorce..if that were the case there wouldn't BE such a thing as an adulterous marriage only a question of bigamy and timing.

Okay MEDC, I'm willing to listen and consider your conclusion. Please provide the Scriptural verse or verses that support your conclusion so I can look them up and see what God has said.

Thanks!

So, name them...in context. I would like to see them (really).

I dont believe an adulterous marriage can be transformed, because I dont believe there is such a one in this case. The only adulterous marriage is where the BS refuses to end the original marriage, but the WS goes on to "marry" someone new (maybe the affair partner). THAT marriage (and it is a marriage in God's eyes) is an abomination to God and is wrong.

Remember the woman at the well? Jesus stated that she had 5 husbands!! How is that possible, if she didnt marry all 5? The issue was that she had unscripturally ended her first marriage, thus the succeeding marriages (while still marriages) were adulterous relationships.

But....if a BS decides to end the marriage due to adultery by their WS, then the marriage is ended. It is finished. It no longer exists. As I said, this is a legal matter. If a covenant (which is a contract with the penalty of death for those that break it) is legally ended by the BS, then the contract no longer binds all parties involved.

In JJ's case, I believe that her husband did agree to divorce. Which was his right as a BS. Which means, the marriage covenant no longer exists. The marriage no longer exists. You cannot be bound to a contract that no longer exists!!

How about the Bible? I dont recognize anything the state does if it is in violation of Scripture.

So, if a BS ends the marriage due to adultery by the WS, and remarries...their new marriage is adultery? Scripture says otherwise!

Leviticus is clear that all sexual sin is equally punishable... the adjectives to describe each are different...but obviously all are held to the same standard... heck, the word aboination is not even used for laying with an animal... but the meaning is clear... is it not?

LA, yes, I was married (as an unbleiever and then later had a child with a woman several years before I came to Christ... and if I had ever married an affair partner, I would feel a need to rectify that situation as I would feel forever in sin)... as for the rest of your post...

as I have told you in the past, we have different ways of looking at things...I am quite comfortable with mine and do not consider it abusive... nor do I consider BK, Noodle, BobP or others that have taken a strong stance on this abusive. In fact, I consider JJ abusive for even being here...and that is why the debate continues even against your heartfelt wishes.

Sure.

Interesting.

Folks...the key question here is...did JJ's marriage end? That is the question.

If it did end, then any marriage after that is not an adulterous marriage.

If it did not end, then any marriage after that is an adulterous marriage.

Can we first agree on this?

The state allowed JJ to remarry in violation of Scripture. She had no right to remarry according to Scripture... yet you recognize her M. Her H had a reason to put her away and remarry... but JJ does not have the right to remarry according to Scriture... to do so she would be committing adultery.

Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." If this were the correct interpretation of the text, there would be one, and only one, ground for remarriage: the adultery of one's mate. The "innocent party" would be free to marry another.

I would agree they are the relevant questions MM.

will cheack in later... have to go bottom paint my boat.

agood article that seems to support the positions of MM and FH.... just in the interest of being fair

http://www.covenantkeepers.org/articles/marriage_divorce_remarriage.htm

I do not agree.

Again if her marriage was ended by her husband, as I outlined above, then she was no longer held Scripturally to a dead covenant.

Nope. If her husband has ended the covenant, then the covenant no longer exists. As I have outlined above, you cannot be held to a contract that is null and void.

The innocent party is free to divorce! Once the divorce happens, there is no marriage. If the innocent party sought divorce, then the covenant is broken and the contract is null and void to the innocent party. And if the contract is null and void to one party, it is null and void to all parties.

Well MM...

It's hard to say for sure because the law isn't being carried out now is it?

See her BS would be free to remarry cause she'd be dead.

And as a result the marriage would likewise be over.

All inconsistant execution [heh..black humor you know] aside that was the word of the law from which the boundaries surrounding new marriage were taken.

As for that scripture.

Sure..I would be happy to do that.

Let's address the ones that are already posted for our convenience over the last several pages first.

Off topic...What kinda boat??

It's not?

He was free to divorce and remarry. That is what that Scripture states.

Yep!

I think this is what I was saying, wasnt it?

Sure. Where you wanna start? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

32 ft. Carver Mariner. I spent the winter "upgrading" much of the boat including installation of about 150 square feet of teak planks on a boat that previously lacked character. She is called Bay Dog.

Thanks for asking.

MEDC

Okay, so one person answered this original question. Others can chime in as we go along...but for time's sake, I will continue as if we have agreement on this premise.

Now, the second question is...what is a marriage? Isnt a covenant between a man and a woman which is ratified and bound by God?

And if so, then the third question is...what is a covenant?