MM that really is total rubbish and you know it.

WS's don't get cooed and clucked over here on GQII - they get their [censored] handed to them on a plate when they exhibit entitlement and fog and rightly so.

Weaver – With all due respect, if you consider me to have attacked others, and that others have not attacked me, well all I can say is I guess it depends upon one’s vantage point. Have I responded sometimes with a forceful response? Undoubtedly. So have others. Just take a quick look at what BigKahuna has been saying and the words he has been using.

I have not “attacked” your beliefs or the beliefs of others. I have stated that regardless of what anyone believes, there IS, according to the Word of God, only one true faith and only one true God. I HAVE stated that the ONLY way to be forgiven of sin is through Jesus Christ and have “defended” biblical Christianity. Can that be “offensive” to some people? No doubt. But others also seem to have no problem attacking Christianity, or at least the biblical form of Christianity that rests in faith in Christ alone. There are also many groups “out there” who consider themselves Christians and who do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God and the Savior of the world. They are NOT, imo, Christian, they have appropriated the name Christian. There are others who follow a faith that believes in Jesus, but denies truths of the Scripture such as salvation by Faith Alone. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they are not Christians, but that they may not understand what the Scripture says about how someone is saved. In all of those cases, some could easily feel that any position taken by me or by anyone else that does not agree with their position is an “attack.” Guess what? I have felt attacked many times. That’s also part of human nature.

So I have made a conscious effort to attempt to DISCUSS things and not attack the individual, but I also know that people will not always agree on any subject, much less when talking about faith. You, on the other hand, seem to think that I should simply “take” any attack directed at me or my faith without responding. Well, I’ve tried to do that too, trying to limit my responses to the subject, not to the person.




MM is much kinder and gentler than I am, there is no doubt about it. He is also much kinder and gentler than a lot of posters who you seem to be willing to give a “pass” to in their tone and posting. And yes, I post or don’t post as I see fit, just the same as everyone else, including you.




Thank you. Very godly of you too, don't you think.




Do you mean as you are doing now….seething venom?

How about quoting some of my “seething”? If I have been “seething” at someone, I will tell you right now that I will immediately ask them for forgiveness.

I was having a very calm discussion with JJ regarding some of her questions about things such as Eternal Security. We were “minding our own business and not seething about anything or to anyone.

But along comes the gang and hijacks the thread again based upon THEIR judgment that she, and anyone else foolish enough to reveal that they are not in their first marriage, has no business posting on an “open to the public,” “open to all who obey The Rules Of The System,” discussion forum. So who exactly IS doing the “seething” here?



Sure you can, others do it all the time, especially to anyone who doesn’t believe as they do and especially if they reject Jesus Christ. Saying that the ONLY way to be saved is by faith in Jesus Christ IS offensive to anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ. Saying that the Scripture clearly teaches that ALL sins are forgiven for a person who has been “born again” can be “offensive” to some even if that is what God says. I understand that. But it IS the truth that has been revealed to us by God.




Thank you. I’m okay with being in “cult” of believers in Jesus, as I am sure you are in your chosen “cult.”




I see, fundamental Christians are not welcome on MB either, by Weaver’s decree. Or at least they should be quiet and never mention their faith, even when someone else professes to be a believer and is seeking help.




I could ask you to say what you use as your “yardstick” for sincerity and being “Godly,” but what would be the point? You continue to attack the person and not the “ideas.” And you have the temerity to call the pot black? An interesting perspective.



Okay, so who is hurting and angry because of me? And what “light of God” do you think I need that is supposedly lacking by your judgment? I’ll be happy to consider it once you are specific.

BP,

"You are such a drama queen LA. Adds nothing helpful to the cause of taking this debate elsewhere or staying here IMO"

OUCH.

I wrote a lot in regards to your post. My usual you say and then I reply. Right now, I'm going to focus on this defining abusive statement.

My intent is to aid and when I realign with that, all the rest faded out.

My pain from your statement triggered me. Defined who I am right now, smacked a label upside my head. That's what it felt like to me.

Then I thought about all the pain and traced it back to its root source. I hope this helps someone.

One Saturday morning, when I was ten years old, I walked down the hallway of our quiet house and went into our kitchen. I saw my stepmother, father and sister sitting at the dining room table. In their places, with their hands folded and no breakfast before them.

My stepmother said, "Sit down, LA. We've been waiting for you." So I took my place and my heart already started beating. This was all sorts of weird for me.

"We have something to tell you and we don't want you to get all dramatic. Your grandmother died yesterday. Do you have any questions?"

My mother had died two years before and her mother had lived with us my whole life, up until my Dad began dating my stepmother.

"How did she die?"

And they told me. Then my stepmother said, "Now don't make this into a big deal."

My sister said with a sigh, "Well, you know how you are."

And my stepmmother added: "Go to your room and get over it."

That was it.

Telling me I'm a drama queen cut me to my core. Wasn't because of who you are, BP; whatever authority you think you have or qualifications which gives you justification for defining me. It was the "we" in that group, around the table, which said I was the problem. My pain and loss was a problem to them.

And now I think I can see where you banishing someone because of hurt feelings resonates...my stepmother called it loyalty...and she cut off contact with my dead mother's relatives because they hurt her feelings the first day she met them after she married my father. And my father supported that decision. It was less than a year after my mother died.

Guess I think I believe hurt feelings cost me half my family. My feelings were powerful and damaging to others. I think this is how I became to view myself as a human wrecking ball. I triggered to that opinion in your last post to me, also, BP...my perception. And I saw in your treatment of JJ.

To make feelings your god, what you act from, justify and make causes of...I think that moral is about as poor as happiness. Oh, wait. That's a feeling, too, isn't it?

I can't stop you from abusing others by labeling them...I'm curious to see how you label yourself, what belief you have which justifies slicing and dicing for a cause. My guess it depends on how great your fear is of the outcome.

I do not believe you are noble or kind when you hack into someone in defense of someone else's pain. You don't know what you'll hit or trigger when you do, do you?

The pain, the trigger, remain mine. A few hours later and I am no longer in that stabbing pain. I'm choosing to trace it, not fight it or protect myself from it. And I'm not re-stabbing myself with your words.

I choose not to believe you and to call you on it. Say I know what you did. Here's what it felt like. So don't think I'm saying don't abuse others when you feel justified because it hurts. I'm saying choose not to because it's a false idol you serve, and you do damage, too. No blame or fault. You're human.

Same for the BS's here...who may believe you will turn your dagger on them if they don't believe what you believe, do what you want them to do, or feel what you believe they should feel.

Triggers are there for a reason...God's design. Not mine. We trigger to old stuff all the time...and you may have aided me greatly in tearing this old scab off the original wound. I won't know for awhile, because it hurts that much, that deep. I know it will pass and choose to believe that all things work for healing, in the end.

I know you do not believe this--so you experience a justified life. Which is what I did as a WS.

I am not a drama queen. I'm a human being. Equal to you. I do not want to support your crusade, BP, against JJ. I am in full support of connecting through sharing others who choose to make their marriages their top priority and am grateful when they share their journey.

Not up to me to decide for JJ to move or not move. I was asking for clarity from you.

LA

Mrs. W - I, for one, have always been open to having a discussion with JJ on the General Discussion Forum. That really isn't the "current issue" that is going on. What is going on is some people have decided that they are the "decision makers" as to who can, who cannot, post on ANY forum. They have further attacked the truth that all born again believers have ALL of their sins forgiven and are convinced that is "not enough." They have, essentially, turned a thread intended to help someone into a theological debate over admittedly difficult issues.

Believe me, I really have a "distaste" for affairs and all of the problems that attend affairs. But I also know that "forgiven by God" means forgiven, and that person should be accorded the respect that anyone should be given who has had a heartfelt repentance of the sin they committed and have surrendered their life to Christ.

It is frustrating to be dealing with the same "vigilante-like" committee and their "mission to protect the system from the awful person who is not in her first marriage."

It really has gotten to the point where I am considering asking the Moderators and Administrators for a "ruling" on this matter and leaving the right to post or not to post on the GQ II forum, or any forum for that matter, up to them as the officials of the site.

Thank you for your peacemaking attempt, it was well intentioned imho.

God bless.

LA...
That story from your childhood is terrible. I am sorry you went through that.
Was BopP accurate in his words that you said his wifes adultery was a gift to their M??? If so, I can think of nothing more offensive that you could have said and frankly, I would be surprised that Bob has anything to say to you after that. Can you understand how that would be a terrible thing to say to someone?

MEDC

FH can you show me where anyone other than you has made ANY comment about first, second or third marriages. You have constantly trumpeted this but it is your own fabrication.

First, this discussion group isnt a BS-only discussion group. You know we have a bunch of WSs coming on here. Some legitamately searchign for answers. Others justifying.
Yes there are

But the point is that this forum is opened to all. It doesnt say "BS only."
Never said it did

That being said, I do understand your sensitivity towards the BSs that come on here. But in order to really do this as you want to, we would have to ban WSs from here too!

As a FBS, I can tell you that all of the posts on here I benefitted from. When I read the WS posts, it helped me understand the fog. When I read posts such as JJ's, it helped me understand the complexities of this situation, as well as possible outcomes.

So, having the discussion here is not bad in and of itself. Does it hurt to hear WSs justify their immorality? Sure. But it is necessary to understand the alien in order to deal with the alien!
So you admit you consider JJ to be a WS not a FWS?

Also this is why I have NEVER ONCE said that legitimizing an affair marriage in this public forum only hurts BS. I have said it hurts the VULNERABLE. For example

JJs first threads attracted active OW and a FOW with a yen for her WS who siezed upon it as a legitimization of the "romance" and reality of affairs. You really think even good hearted wavering FWS with an addictive desire for their recent affair parter will not love to hear how salvation and remarriage makes everyting OK ?

I have many times averred that the lovely FWS, partiularly FWWs who posted me were the primary ones who kept me sane during the dark days. Kyellow, NOW, SADFWW and KiwiJ back then all gave me care and assurance that they came to regret their affairs and that my own Squid might come to realise that too, so there was hope.

If they had instead told me that their affairs had been true love,righteous and by remarriage became legitimate I might just have given up on life.

Generous FWS are the salt in this place IMO, but I cannot in good conscience place JJ in that group. She never gave up her affair, nor considered it anything other than perfectly OK ( by her own admission) until her "h" cheated on her. All of a sudden she is really sorry, needs marriagebuilding help and the irony of that seems completely lost on her.

But as I stated above, the only affair marriage is the one where the BS still holds onto the marriage. If the BS divorces the WS due to adultery, the marriage is ended...the covenant (contract) no longer applies to the BS and he/she is free to remarry. And, since the BS is no longer bound to a defunct contract, the WS can no longer be bound to it either.

so let us be very clear what you are saying here : if a BS divorces their WS, and the WS marries their A partner that A is as legitimate as the first marriage was, in law, in scripture and in the eyes of God ? And that you believe that because the affair-marriage is totally legit, is as deserving of marrigebuilding support as any other marriage on these boards ? All because of the fact that the BS , for whetever reason, started the D proceedings ?

not from your morals

There are many people on this earth from whom I will accept a lesson in morals. You are not one of them.

I am not a drama queen.

And you don't think this response was just a LITTE BIT OTT ?

I'm a human being. Equal to you.

Show me where I said you were not.

I do not want to support your crusade, BP, against JJ.
No you seem to have your own crusade where affair marriges must be ligitimised in the face of vulnerable people. They are responsibile for their reaction to it, apparrently.

I am in full support of connecting through sharing others who choose to make their marriages their top priority and am grateful when they share their journey.

A pity JJ didn't make her first legitimate marriage her top priority. It would have avoided the BS' hurt in her situation and obviated the need for her to find legitimization of her current affair marriage.

Yes indeed that is what it is talking about but Jesus clearly states what the difference between those 2 groups was and it is not the explanation you provided. Sola Scripture. In this case the scripture is abundantly clear and requires no explanation or interpretation.


You may have no doubt but your mind-reading skills are not working here. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

I have a WS over on Just Found Out that I am trying to help out.

Why don't you advise her " look, just get your BS desperate enough to divorce you and you're free to marry OM without shame " ?

I am not being trite MM. This is the message supporting JJs situation sends out.

This thread has me in a state of shock...I can't understand why what I see as the ULTIMATE WS LOOPHOLE is being put forth here...It is my opinion that it seriously cheapens marriage...And I have a very hard time seeing that God would do that...

Seriously, why don't we just start a thread about how best to gaslight a BS into filing for a divorce...BS TORTURE 101 has a nice ring to it...Just give the WSs their DREAM on a SILVER FREAKIN' PLATTER...Here it is WSs EVERYWHERE...COME AND GET IT...WITH BIBLICAL BACKING to boot...

*THUD*

Mrs. W

Or how about this - the contention that "I can't be held responsible for BS's being upset - they can merely not read..."

MM... a real time question for you considering your sitch...
hypothetically speaking...

Mrs. MM continues through her pregnancy and at some point you realize the A is rekindled....and to boot, you find out that the little one she is carrying is her A partners baby. You decide this was the last straw and divorce her... is Mrs. M free to marry her A partner based on Scripture??? How would you feel if she showed up here for counsel regarding her new M????

Obviously this is all hypothetical and gets to the core issue in my opinion.

MEDC

I wrote that I am leaving this thread, and I am. I forgot to log off this thread earlier and am now about to head off to a soccer game. But I would like to state the obvious before I go.

Mrs W,

Most of the readers of this thread are so shocked and astounded because...

This odious biblical defense of affair marriages is just plain patently wrong.

The defenders of this A marriage are using a worldly argument cloaked in personal unsupported biased interpretations of scripture.

The defenders of this A marriage gather unrelated snippets of scripture from all over to try to support a wholly erroneous conclusion. And they intentionally ignore what is right under their noses.

At least one of the defenders of this A marriage has flipped his pronouncements on the unambiguous meanings of the scriptures he quotes here several times in the past couple of years.

This is at best egocentric, and it is very possibly evil.

This entire defense seems wrong to thoughtful BS and FWS alike because it is wrong.

Simple as that.

You have it right, Mrs W.


With prayers,

Hi Justjilly.
I just spent 2 hours reading this thread. I had to register finally just for this thread. My wife reads MB daily so I am familiar with who is who and what's going on, but your thread demanded that I had to say something. Like I hope you respond again and not let the gainsayers chase you away. They hate the good for being good. Foreverhers is right on track and his posts made the Holy Spirit in me shout YEAH and AMEN as I was reading. It was odvious that you are a real christian by the way you were responding and learning from his posts. I wish people in my church did that. You just keep on doing what you are doing and you will be fine.

Foreverhers, Morterman, Lovinganyway - Isn't it nice when the unregenerate show up to show who is approved?! "For first of all, when ye come together in the church (orMB), I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." I Cor 11:18,19 Keep up the good fight.

MrsWondering - as an adulter, how can you say the thing that you are saying to JJ? She is being honest, you are vengfull because of your guilt.

Anyway, Goodnight and God Bless You'all (esp JJ)

Back off my wife unregenerate troll.

So...of all the things going on here. Of all the people you could reach out and help you choose to jump right in and defend an adulterous marriage. If your wife is here ... don't you have more important things to post about and learn yourself and apply in your marriage than to jump in here and insult my wife? This is EXACTLY why this thread shouldn't be here on GQII...you wasted 2 hours reading this thread when you could have read some much more beneficial things for YOU and YOUR marriage than this...IMO.

What's your agenda? Who is your wife??? Which one of you two were the adulterer at one time??? If you (which I surmise)...should I, as the BS, completely disregard your opinions because YOU are presumably a former WH? If your wife...would you appreciate me dismissing her as an adulterer unable to state ANY opinion on the subject based upon her prior status as such??? How is her vengence motivated by guilt??? How does that work??? Do you think she wrote her words for my benefit??? I'm guessing it's just the customary cheap shot at the WS because it's just easy, then again, maybe I'm just a bitter BS.

"Go and sin no more" - my wife has done this. I am still uncertain, unconvinced, unknowing whether Jilly has or CAN and if so, how. However, such discussion, IMO, doesn't belong here. Whether a adulterous marriage can become unadulterous is not a safe, prudent or kind discussion to have on this board in front of newbie BS's or WS's.

BTW, my wife and I LIKE FH, we have been offline friends with LA and we are good friends with Mortarman as well as many others here on both sides of this issue. We just don't happen to agree with them HERE. No worries...it's a hotly contested issue....much more than I orginally presumed.

EVERYONE...is free to post on this public board including naysayers that don't like or want JJ posting on the INFIDELITY section of the marriage builders website support forums. Mrs. W (and I) just think the quiet corner is the best place for her to get advice from our friends, Neak, LA, FH, and MM AND NOW EVEN YOU without disrupting the GQII board. You can see...GQII is pretty much done tolerating her presence despite being told we should. We disagree. Doesn't make us a mob. Doesn't make us evil. This is not a concerted effort...just frustration and annoyance of many over time manifested.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- btw...good timing on the insult. Today...the 26th is our 2 year post D-day anniversary. I wonder how many more years it will take for her guilt to subside to a tolerable level for you. lol

p.p.s. - I wonder what Just Jilly's 1st husband's take on this entire thread would be?

Mr. Wondering,

Please, I'm not troll. I've been reading your wife's posts and couldn't believe how she could cut this person down in ways that she was. What i said was not as mean as she was. JJ has been on the giving end and is now on the recieving end. Her husband cheated on her and was on heroin and booze. That makes things a little different. That is why this place works. My agenda was my interest on someone actually explaining the saving power of Jesus and true salvation to her. I just guessed at her guilt by how mean she was. My wife and I haven't cheated on each other either.

BigKahuna – I posted the following response to your question in an attempt to answer it. You asked “Can you tell me what it was that separated these 2 distinct groups of people - the damned and the saved?”

Then you went on to state CATEGORICALLY (and by way of asking in a “rhetorical” manner) that it was “Because it was not faith was it? This was NO sincere question, this was a defiant statement of your belief, in direct conflict with God’s Word.



What you have responded with is the following that shows clearly (NO “mind reading or false allegation of “putting words in your mouth” that you didn’t say) that you DO NOT believe in FAITH ALONE . If NOT faith alone, BK, then the ONLY other option is faith PLUS some works that we do to “justify ourselves” being written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


You then went on to state the following, once again erroneously, but with the intention of NOT addressing the very question about the Final Judgment that you, yourself, raised.

So kindly stop accusing me of putting words in your mouth. I take what you write and draw the logical conclusion your words demand, even if you don’t want to admit to them yourself.

For the record, Sola Scriptura refers to the authority of the Word of God and to what “takes precedence” whenever there is a “conflict” between the Scripture and the interpretations and/or “traditions” of men or Church. It has nothing to do with being written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. It DOES have a lot to do with faith and a correct understanding of the Word of God and of the POINT of the whole Scripture….Jesus Christ, who He is, what He did, and HOW is the only way in which any human being can be saved.

“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, “LORD who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:14-17 NKJV, emphasis added)

What, BK, DOES “obeying the gospel” mean? It does NOT mean “works,” it means believing in, and accepting as Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [color:"blue"]not of works[/color], lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV, emphasis added)


Read this Scripture, BigKahuna, I implore you to use your own standard of “Sola Scriptura” to the above quote from Ephesians and to the following, and read and understand what it is that God has revealed to us and how it applies to ALL sinners who have been saved through FAITH in Jesus Christ.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, not indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh [unbelievers] cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because or righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors – not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but your received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry our, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs – heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.” (Romans 8: 1 –17 NKJV, emphasis added)


BigKahuna, JJ is a believer in Jesus Christ. It is time you stopped this nonsense that she will not be in the “Lamb’s Book of Life.”

It is time you started understanding and applying the fact that God does NOT forgive your sins so you can go around NOT forgiving the sins of whomever you feel does not meet YOUR standards.

It is NOT a question of “do I like it,” “could others be offended,” “could an active WS attempt to use JJ as yet another rationalization for HIS/HER own sin of adultery.”

It is a question of “there is NOW NO condemnation for anyone who is in Christ Jesus.”

Stop trying to “Recondemn JJ.” She fully understands the sins she has committed and has surrendered her life to Christ. She IS adopted into God’s family and WILL BE among the “sheep” and not the “goats” at the final judgment. She HAS confessed her sin to her first husband and sought his forgiveness. She HAS repented. Now you want her to “circumcised” just like the original Jewish believers wanted Gentile believes to “go back to be being under the law.”

It is by FAITH, and FAITH ALONE, that some is saved and their sins, ALL of their sins, are forgiven by God because Jesus earned that right for us and gives us HIS righteousness so that God sees all of our sins as covered by Christ’s blood, and God the Father makes a legal and permanent legal decision that we are JUSTIFIED in His sight, we are a new creation, we are His child. NOT by anything we “do” to “earn” that right standing, but solely relying on Christ and his provision as being SUFFICIENT.

Now I understand WHY you so adamantly have not wanted to discuss Eternal Security and why you think a saved person CAN lose their salvation and be blotted out of the “Lamb’s Book of Life.”

Let’s face the REALITY, BK. Either a born again believe CAN lose their salvation, or the CANNOT. You say they can, I say they can’t. SOLA SCRIPTURA applies.
One of us right and one of us wrong. If both of us are also believers, then the “difference of opinion” is to be solved by the Word of God, not by opinion or stubbornness of belief.

THAT is why I quote Scripture when I do. So that my “opinion” is not just “my opinion,” it is consistent with the Word of God.

Mr. W - That judgment and slander was uncalled for.

I understand your desire to protect your wife, even the anger you felt. But God's response that we all struggle with is "be angry, but in your anger do not also sin in response."

God bless.

Aphelion - That is your opinion, and your opinion only.

"The defenders of this A marriage gather unrelated snippets of scripture from all over to try to support a wholly erroneous conclusion. And they intentionally ignore what is right under their noses. "

Okay, prove your contention with Scripture, not just your opinion. I'm willing to listen to your case.


"At least one of the defenders of this A marriage has flipped his pronouncements on the unambiguous meanings of the scriptures he quotes here several times in the past couple of years."

Again, your opinion, and a personal attack.

Back it up with specific examples and let's look at what you think has been "flipping."

One more time you resort to ad homimem attack instead of the issues to prove your "point" and render an opposing view to yours as irrelevant.

We can discuss the "differences" in opinion, but in doing so we need to have the Scripture as the "final authority" that is the judge, especially as it relates to whether or not someone's sins have been forgiven by God.