It would seem that "Should an affair marriage be helped here" is one of the more appropriate titles for this debate/thread. The religious argument could be placed there or in it's own separate thread as well.

I don't hold anything personal against JJ, I feel bad that this hotly contested issue is put on her thread. That's the first sign that, maybe, just maybe, the multiple suggestions of putting her thread somewhere a bit more private are not way out of line. I concur, once again, that the idea of moving this to a more private setting or another forum is an out-damn-standing idea.

Here's another reason:



Amen. That's my "spiritual" or "religious" take on the matter. I'm not into spiritual arguments on the "why" or "why not" we should help someone in an affair marriage. There are some on this forum who could care less about the religious argument present in this thread. I do care, and read with great interest, but my hurt is such that I come back to the basic facts - like Mrs. W put out there SO VERY WELL.

I read that someone jumped on Mrs. W for writing one of the most common-sense responses I've read here. That's very upsetting to me. Mrs. W is one of the most courageous people I have met here. She has been superbly helpful to many in helping them understand what goes on in the mind of a WW and later a FWW. It takes a lot of guts to come here when you were the WS, and it takes a lot of heart to help people the way she has. I would just call her Mrs. Wonderful if I were the insulting party and leave it at that.

That's the difference between JJ and Mrs. W in my opinion. Mrs. W "gets it". JJ's situation is not "blessed" or "forgivable" in my opinion. I feel nothing when I read her situation, as I believe her affair marriage was cursed from the beginning.

The extent of my religious take on this is quite simple and rudimentary. "Thou shalt not covet another man's wife". I didn't have to look any further than that. Some man coveted JJ, they married. They now have problems. News Flash: That happens in Affairs and Affair marriages.

I agree wholeheartedly that the vulnerable WILL read this thread when they arrive. The last thing they need to see is this. The "Don't read it if you can't handle it" or "You DON"T have to read this thread" ka-ka doesn't fly with me. I know that in Month One for me I READ EVERYTHING. How many BS's listen to every word of advice you give them and follow it to the letter? Not many. I wouldn't expect that here either. ("Ummm...hey, you might not want to read the not-so-successful story of an affair marriage in that other thread Mr or Mrs. Newly Betrayed Spouse".

I would hate to have read this thread back in the "even more devastated" days when I first started. I know that A's usually die. I know that Affair Marriages struggle at best. Let's not forget that the BS LOSES their WS in the D, and most of us HATE to see our WS on the downward spiral. That's because we love them...still. You see, JJ is exactly that to me. It would pain me to see my WW end up here with her affair husband seeking help for many reasons. Because she is hurting. Because it furthers her betrayal of me. Because, because, because.

BP put it well when he highlighted the fact that many, however strong, would lose hope to read stories like this very early. It takes reinforcement of hope repeatedly to keep a BS going. It only takes one negative thing to bring a BS down. Funny how that works, eh?

There's nothing like a bunch of people getting bitter tastes in their mouth for each other over a thread on a blessed place. No matter how well many of us get along, there is bound to be some love lost between a few here.

That's my non-spiritual argument on this thread.

Sure BK, it's "all in my mind." If I have the time I will be happy to go back and quote specific posts where this attitude has been displayed.

But in the interest of time, let me just state it this way:

The "cadre" to which you are aligning yourself has many times, and consistantly, stated that a WS who is divorced from their 1st spouse and then marries someone else is;

1). Committing adultery in that marriage,

2). That marriage is not legitimate in the eyes of God because it was founded in adultery,

3). The only way that such a WS can "prove" that they have become born again and received forgiveness for all of their sins is to DIVORCE that "2nd," "3rd," or whichever number that marriage is that they are in WHEN they are saved.

4). Once divorced from that "adulterous marriage" the "now Former Wayward Spouse" only has two choices, remain single or return to their only "legitimate" spouse, their 1st spouse. Nevermind the fact that Scripture also says that the first spouse should not take back a spouse who had been remarried to someone else.


You, BK, and several others, have consistently tried to "Parse" an adulterous marriage into

1). all those that involve a marriage to someone other than the person the WS had an affair with and,

2). those only that are married to a "affair partner."

BK, while a marriage to an "affair partner" is very distasteful, it is still an "adulterous marriage," as are all marriages to someone other than the BS (excepting of course the BS who remarries according to God's standard).

You have consistantly stated that JJ is not saved and have attempted to use her remaining in her current marriage as "proof." That is about as "unbiblical" as one can get, to presume that God "cannot" forgive ALL sins that a believer has committed. There IS only one sin that God will not forgive and it is NOT adultery, adulterous marriages or affair marriages. It is not "any sin" that believer may commit AFTER they have become born again.

You take that position that a believer CAN lose their salvation, yet you always refuse to see what Scripture actually says about it, and then you have the temerity to to claim that Sola Sriptura is YOUR "guiding light" on differences of opinion.

Let's "go to the Book" BigKahuna. I'm willing. Are you?

FH... I will lend my voice to BK's here... you are without question distorting... and you know it... his position and the position that others have taken. This is the sign of a person that has no footing in a discussion and frankly, although we butt heads sometimes, it surprises me that you would stoop to this level. Very disappointing FH.

I fear that if what some are saying about JJ is true, that she is in a state of perpetual sin, that I also will not be going to heaven.

Try as I might, I will NEVER be completely free from sin. What if Christ returns the instant after I thought myself more highly than another? Or if I had just finished criticizing my sister? What then?

See, I would really like to know the answer to this question, because my salvation hinges on it. And it just might determine what I do from here on out. I can't see any reason to even TRY to refrain from sin if there really is no hope, because I am QUITE sure I will not be able to completely pull it off.

NOW

The arguament FH is not that her sin couldn't be forgiven and so she's damned..it is that her actions and attitudes do not lead them to BELIEVE her claim of salvation or repentance.

They see a whole other agenda. I'm one of them.

God knows the truth...but your assumption that she is surely saved because she says so is as much an opinion than those who don't see any evidence and so don't agree.

I remember when she got here already claiming to have been forgiven...that's all hindsight..we're blessed now and so on and so forth.

Then apon closer examination..nope looks like God has had NO place in her life and choices.

So then once assured that doing so will validate her affair and make it a real boy [a la pinnochio] she becomes passionately involved...until that high wears off too..

Then it's just more of the same...more lies more rationalisations.

It may be a part of your belief system to give people the benefit of the doubt...I see that trait in both you and MM..and as a result you both have a loooong history of getting played like a fiddle by an active liar you hoped was changing their ways. Over and over again and still choosing to believe.

And you can do that. I won't though. Once you have proven yourself untrustworthy even by mans standards [which means we give some grace in acknowledging that we all do sometimes succumb to our flaws] you will have to demonstrate some trustworthy behavior for a long time creating new history before I will even consider the possibility that your heart has changed.

JJ hasn't done anything of the sort...just found a new well to drink the same old water from.

Anything that would actually require her to change what she is doing is rejected.

Would she consider leaving her affair?

Would she consider TELLING the parents who are trusting her with their children that she's a drug addict and giving them a choice?

Nope..it's all about messaging her ENs at anyones expense same as it ever was.

You see a lost sheep..I see a snake.

Wow...a lot of posts. I will have to catch up with at least the ones addressed to me!

In following along, I found that some folks were taking the "affair marriages can never be legitimate" route and some were not. I can truly understand the idea that if you commit a sin and it produces something that, after you have asked for forgiveness of that sin, still exists... then you have to remove that as well, right?

Like if I rob a bank and make off with millions. Before they nab me.. I hide it. I get 10 years... and after that... I'm RICH!!!! Not so much repentance there.

So an affair's fruit could be a divorce from BS and marriage to OP. If you truly wish to repent, then the fruit must be killed. End the marriage.

what if the fruit is a child? I suppose you can argue that divorcing your affair partner is no sin because it wasn't a real marriage. But eradicating the child... I imagine the same logic does not apply.

So because you can not remove the fruit of the relationship without commiting another sin... are you damned for eternity?

Is that the ONE way you are not forgiven? Ever?

hmmm.... I wonder

As a BS, of course, I have no practical idea what it feels like to be a WS. But, knowing what I know from dealing with them, I have no doubt you are correct on much of this, Mrs. W.

I had bowed out of the discussion before because of two reasons. One, because it had sort of turned into a conversation between JJ and FH (a good one, in my opinion...one that I am sure she needed) and I felt I would just get in the way.

The second was that I again state that I am still unsure that having people in marriages such as these hauled off to a back room is the best way to go. I can see your point, and if that were all there were to it, then I would probably agree.

But, that being said, I came back on...not because of JJ or anything she or FH were saying...but because many were beginning to come back on and misrepresnt Scripture (IMO) again.

So, I felt I needed to set the record straight.

If the thread was moved to another place, I wouldnt have any problem with that. I am nto necessarily defending it being here. As Scripture states...that even though it is okay for me to do something, if a misinformed brother or sister in Christ cant stomach it, then we shoud stop (and do it elsewhere).

So, were this to move...then I would have no probelm following along and chiming in when needed!

Personally I believe thaty because affairs are inherently sick and corrupt...that the child does not benefit from the "family" as it should or might appear to on the surface.

Better to settle for less than the "ideal" which does not include the affair insanity.

Same reason why I think OCs are better adopted than shared.

[color:"red"]grymir [/color]



[color:"blue"] oh-my-goodness

HelenWheels' husband

I remember Helen & her "honesty" very well

[/color] HERE [color:"red"] <~~~ [/color]

[color:"blue"] For the record

I STILL do not like being lied to

[/color]

But the child still exists and is therefore fruit of a sin, yes?

Can you truly be forgiven if the fruit still exists?

Kill the marriage? Not the child?

If the child is fruit of a sick and corrupt relationship, doesn't that make them sick and corrupt?

Only posing questions.

I am trying to wrap my head around "where does it end?"

If you have a relationship with OP that ends up in marriage(via divorcing BS)... and then you 'wake up' and decide that forgiveness and repentance is your desire, then the argument seems to be, end the marriage with OP that was never legitimate anyway(thus implying that it is NO sin to up and divorce OP because it is only legal redtape and not spiritual). Only after dissolving all fruit resulting from the sick and corrupt relationship can you truly be free.

Have I read this wrong?

If I haven't...what about the kids? If you bring an OC into the world... have you just condemned yourself for eternity?

The parts you left out.

Interesting you would say that. I was thinking the same for what you are doing here now.

And you arent inventing? Hhhmmmm (Aphelion taking the superior position with arms crossed).

Which is what you are doing. I agree.

I dont explain away anything. I take it in context. Let me give yo uan example, right from the Scripture you posted above.

If we let this sentence stand by itself (as you said above the other should be), then there is NO justifiable reason for divorce. Where in that sentence does it say a BS can divorce? It doesnt. It says it elsewhere in Scripture. Are the two contradictory? Nope!

You see, when you want to use certain passages and not take the entire 66 books into account, then much meaning is left out.

Dig it up!!! I never have said that! I have said that the Holy Spirit is the one who helps us understand what the Scripture means. I have said (and I read FH said the same thing above) that there is only ONE truth...not many. But finding the meaning of a passage or series of passages is only done by studying the entire Bible AND by divine revelation!!

Interesting.

Yes, once you restore the marriage, the adultery is gone. You cant say "honey, let's work on the marriage." And then ten years later tell her "you know what, I am using my get out of jail free card on that adultery you did ten years ago." It dont work that way!

As does reading yours, unfortunately! Listen up...nothing I have said (I will let FH defend himself) can ever be intelligently construed as me agreeing with annulment. Annulment makes the marriage as it had never existed. I have never said that! That is unScriptural!

You see, Aphelion...when you speak this way, no one listens! Try arguing for your position without name calling! You might be able to get your point across! Seriously.

FH may say the same about you. Ever think that might be a possiblity?? But I have to say that even if he has the same view of you Aphelion, I have not seen him try to shut you down this way. You are free to express your opinion. So is FH.

I believe that the positons you have taken are unSciptural. So, should I begin thinking about you in this way also? Cause right now, I dont. But, if you believe this is the right way, maybe I should.

Again name calling. And again, I could say the same concerning you Aphelion. You take parts of the book, want them to stand on their own (your words) without taking the entire book into account.

And since you dont want it kept alive, why do you continue to keep it alive. As you said about FH...it is for your own reasons, I am sure.

I do? Why would I knowingly write rubbish?

Of course they dont!! That was a part of my point, BigK! But what I was talking about there was that with us all being sensitive to the BSs not hearing things that will upset them, we would have to ban current WSs to another thread so the impressionable BSs wont have to read about all of the ugly stuff that we know all WSs say!

How many here have 100% completely turned from all sin?

Actually, this was trite. But I understand what you are saying. But, as I said to Mrs. W...I am very wary of banning people just because some people believe a certain way. It is a dangerous slope that will destroy these boards.

I believe that if someone is wrong, then the others on here will take care of that. And in that interaction, the vulnerable will be able to see the argument played out and the end result.

I am just not big on banning people! Especially when it is not clear that they are doing anything wrong. And it is not clear, in the case of JJ.

There are many here that believe she is in an "affair marriage." Others believe differently. Who is right?

The point that I have been trying to get across is that in the interaction, the discussion, the argument...that is where the truth will be found. That is where that vulnerable BS or WS will see it all played out for them.

I believe we should all be made to reach down and pull up our big boy boxers and big girl panties. That is why I (and many here) are so hard on current WSs. Because they need to grow up and start acting like an adult.

An adult can take this stuff, read it...and even thru some hurt and pain from it, can work it thru ther skull (might take awhile if there is a lot of pain).

I am just not in favor of banning that which hasnt been proven to be wrong. I am also not in favor of protecting the WS...nor the BS...from the realities of the situation.

Reality allows clear thinking...and then good judgment.

Actually Pepperband, I'm grateful that you posted the link.

I was seriously considering doing so myself in reply to Mr. W's question as to who exactly is grymir's spouse.

I did out myself in much the same way that JJ has here. My sin may have been different but sin nonetheless. I did confess my sin that bothered me greatly. I repented. Asked for forgiveness. If I remeber correctly, you forgave me but no longer wished to communicate with me. I accept and respect that. I have not addressed you personally again until now. And I'm only doing so to make the following point----namely----

My sin was not and is not my husband's sin. Mine alone. The situation that brought me to this site happened long before I even met him. He had no knowledge of what I had done, until later. And his wise counsel was instrumental in my decision to come here again publically and "take my medicine". To repent and be restored.

My husband is his own man with his own beliefs and ideas. I pray that you will not hold my sin against HIM in anyway, or use what I did as a filter to judge HIM if you don't like what he has to say.

Thank you and God Bless.

Back to lurkdom I go.

I will have to come back to this later

[raises hand]

[..turns around and trips over sin]

This is not about the sinfull human condition NOW.

This is about trying to call what is sinfull something other than sin.

If a person sins or has sin in their life [and most do]..it is sin..and they can't change it into something else even if they really really want to.


That has NOTHING to do with their forgiven status...attemps to turn the arguament there look to me like evasion and milquetoast pleas for everyone to play nice.