That's exactly my point....we can try as hard as we want to be free from sin, but we CANNOT DO IT. Jesus DIED to pick up where we fall short. And we ALWAYS fall short .

More correctly and clearly...

Wanting to keep something sinfull that you value in your life is understandable.

Everyone struggles there.

However trying to say that it ISN'T sinfull based on some loose conclusions that directly contradict some other scriptures + plus desire to keep it is rebellion and covetousness and possibly idolatry as well as the original sin.

No one here is interested in condemning the repentant.

Feel sorry for her?

Who cares?

But if I am struggling with trying to rid myself of a sin, even after I say I've repented, then I haven't really repented?

No, NOW...if yuo are struggling to HOLD ON to your sin after you say you have repented, than I don't think you really have.

Struggling to get rid of is very different from struggling to hold onto don't you think?

We all agree on all of your points here Noodle except this one:

You and the others have yet to prove that this is the case. As from the beginning, I have had my eyes wide open and I am open to the Holy Spirit leading me wherever He may. Even if that is away from a position I thought was right.

Did you know that He did that in this circumstance? You see, I believed as you did very early on in my mess. But as this went along, I had to wrestle with some very deep insonsitencies in that position. Inconsistencies with the whole of Scripture.

And while this was going on, JJ's situation popped up which forced me to confront my beliefs. And through much study and prayer, I realized I was wrong.

As I said, I used to be very heartfelt in the same position you espouse. I mouthed the same words to my then WW.

And I had to realize I was wrong.

You see, I have no problem being wrong. I do have a problem with me remaining wrong. So, if someone shows me the truth, I have no problem dropping that which is not true!

But you said struggling to HOLD ON to sin is understandable.

That is different. You are correct Noodle.

The problem here is that you believe that a person in a marriage such as JJ's is doing this. I do not. Not under the circumstances as I know them.

Yes we HAVE failed to prove our case conclusively as you have failed to prove yours and everyone else in Christondom has failed to prove that God even exists in a few millenia of trying.

So you are sure that you are correct and are acting on that belief.

Anything that contradicts your belief you disregard or rationalise.

You don't find the arguament compelling and I will say the same.

So act on your beliefs and I'll do likelwise and we'll just keep truckin around this mountain indefinitely.

I'm cool with that.

Of course it's understandable NOW.

Everyone feels tempted to try..that is just part of the struggle.

Where are you confused?

Let's be clear..everyone feels tempted to sin...when they give in that is a wrong choice.

OK?

It's understandable because it is a common experience..but UNDERSTANDING it and CONDONING it are two different things.

I do? huh (Mortarman shrugs his shoulders). I thought I was listening to opposing points of view and bringing up mine. I guess I should thank you for telling me that I am rationalizing and disregarding.

Okay. That is fine.

Noodle...again, I am trying to have a discussion with you and the others. I am trying to present facts...and at the same time learn myself. To leave myself open to revelation from the Lord.

That is my intent. Which is why I dont lower myself to name calling or to getting angry...which is the way much of the opposing side comes across. And that form of communication NEVER wins arguments and never influences anyone.

It just shuts ears and minds.

I wish everyone would choose to discuss this, rather than continue with attacks and name calling. We might actually get somewhere then.

Noodle, you really need to think about this position in the context of what the Scripture actually does say.

Anyone CAN claim to be repentant and want forgiveness of their sins.

But there is only one to actually receive forgiveness of your sins, and that is to truly surrender your life to God in faith in Jesus Christ and HIS completed work on our behalf.

It is a condition of the heart. KNOWLEDGE alone is not enough. There are many people, and all the "fallen angels," who KNOW that Jesus IS in fact who He said He is.

But they will NOT surrender their lives to Him as their Lord and Savior. Fallen angels do not "have that opportunity," but human beings do.

In addition, even the willingness to accept Jesus Christ is given to the "elect" by God Himself. It is NOT dependent upon us, as none of us has that ability on our own.

Do we fully understand God's "election?" No, not fully. But that it DOES exist is equally clear from Scripture. That is one of the fundamental differences between many Christian "religions." The question is whether or not our salvation is solely dependent upon God or is it dependent upon what we do?

What the Scripture also teaches us is that "true faith" WILL result in works that demonstrate our belief in God, NOT to "earn" anything, but as a result of our changed hearts that now seek to follow God in humble obedience to ALL that He commands and teaches.

What, would be the question, leads you believe that JJ has NOT surrendered her life to God? That she has not divorced her current husband because her marriage began in adultery?

If that is to be your "measure" of what is needed in order for her to be forgiven by God, then you are back to a "Works" based salvation. Is that what you are saying?

I agree. But it's also more than just a "wrong choice," it's a sin. That's what we've been talking about.

And no one, on either side of the "debate" has ever said that they are "condoning" any sin.

So I'm trying to understand what it is, exactly, that you are trying to say in this post.

[color:"red"]H W [/color]


[color:"red"] Your Kind husband .... has supported the idea that a woman-adultress who has confessed her past sins needs support ... which is very cool.

Your UNkind husband made a personal attack against Mrs. Wondering's character BASED on her past sin of adultery .... which is very uncool.[/color]

"MrsWondering - as an adulter, how can you say the thing that you are saying to JJ? She is being honest, you are vengfull because of your guilt. "

VERY UNCOOL

I agree with Pep on this one! He was wwwaaaaaayyyy outta bounds!

MM,

You have had several lists of scripture over several pages [usually the same ones] that you summarily dismiss by asserting that while they DID support the opposing viewpoint as they were...the context was incorrect.

The out of context arguament is very slippery indeed IF you want to use scripture as the determining factor.

Saying that something which is very clearly stated in a direct and complete statement [meaning it wasn't cut off with a "and the.." missing element that might have changed the context] is taken out of context and therefore not applicable..well it makes for a very loose and not very compelling case.

"Context" is highly subjective. That doesn't mean that its WRONG necessarily..but it's hard to "prove" and you wish for me to accept it as proof more or less based only on your statement that it IS out of context and that the contexual change is RELEVENT.

I would assert as a result that any belief you have which directly contradicts what is expressly stated but you feel is contexually inaccurate..well I would have to say that the burden of proof is on YOU less the whole of scripture be viewed with that lense [well this is what it SAYS but god diodn't really mean it] and lose it's integral value. I have to say that to accept the conclusions you and FH have been drawing casts the veracity and authority of scripture as a whole into doubt.

No FH...

That'd be you giving it your own personal rinse...again.

BTW that was patriot you are quoting not me.

Noodle - Huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"Failed to prove that God exists" by WHOSE standard of "proof?"

The "final proof" that God exists is that He raised Jesus from the dead.

Whether or not anyone "believes" is NOT the same thing as "proof." For CHRISTIANS, which is the "belief structure" that we have been discussing here, God DOES exist and HE is Lord. He has given us HIS "ruling" concerning our salvation and forgiveness of sins, and HE, not us is the "final authority" in that matter.

So what, again, do you mean by this statement? Do you mean that because some people choose to believe that God does not exist, He doesn't exist? Do you mean that ANY belief is "okay," since the existence of God has not met the "standard of proof" that EVERYONE agrees is THE Standard?




This simply isn't true. For Christians, the "authority" for what is believed, as well as the substance of what is believed, is the inerrant, inspired, Word of God wherein HE has revealed HIS truth to us. It is God's position that is important, not whether we like it or not, not even for those who choose to deny God.