With all due respect FH, you know where I stand on this issue, as I know where you stand...I can live with us not agreeing this time...

Mrs. W

ML -

"LA, do you also believe that Jesus Christ was "abusive" when he called people "liars," "hypocrites," "vipers," "swine?" Jesus Christ himself would not live up to your very subjective standard of "abuse.""

You asked me what I believed. I shared it. I believe Jesus called people who were lying (to themselves or others), liars. Same for hypocrites, vipers and swine...when they were acting like it, he called them on it their actions, not their feelings, their stuff. I do not believe he said his Father created them as liars, vipers, swine or hypocrites. They chose those actions.

That's what I hear when you call people what you think they are based on their past. Why I call myself a FWS, not a WS. I define myself. You may see me differently.

Labels sound like defective creations to me...that you're a liar so you have no choice but to lie.

Can you please explain what you believe is name calling? Does it include taunting, retaliation, some kind of motivation which makes it different?

LA

I don't see how she could ever marry her affair partner.


I for one found that absolutely amazing - I have no idea what her BH's attitude was to divorce. Do you think there was any co-ersion or resignation on his part - did he divorce totally of his own free will or did he feel there was no alternative becaue of the actions of his wife. WOW. I can't imagine he gave consent to divorce (if he in fact did) under anything but the most horrible abusive circumstances. But of course that is speculation on my part.

LA, i think your use of the word "abuse" is so overused that is has been rendered meaningless and unintelligible. It has been expanded to include just about anything and everything that is not pleasing to you. In your lexicon it has become meaningless to everyone except you, because even a truth statement is viewed as "abuse" by you. I recall you once said it was "abuse" to use the terms "always" and "never." Under these conditions, anyone who doesn't speak the grossest form of politically correct doublespeak is an "abuser."



You heard wrong.


Yes, you are, that much is clear.


LA, you know perfectly well what other posters have asked so there is no reason to pretend you don't. JJ doesn't have any such "right" to "post in peace" anymore than board members have a "right" to not be terrorized by the presence of her affair marriage. And then attacked as "terrorists" for daring to object to such a heinous presence. Folks have asked over and over again for this affair marriage to be taken to a more private place where it doesn't cause so much pain. That request has been ignored. I have no doubt that you are perfectly able to fully comprehend that point, but just don't want to accept it. This callous disregard for others is astonishing, LA.

I have no idea what this means. sorry..

Okay, BK, I agree with your statement that "we may be getting somewhere."

So let's see if I am understanding where you are "headed" with your question in the above quotation.

You seem to be stating, or implying, that someone must "DO" something to demonstrate their repentance so that someone other than God can "judge" that their repentance is real.

If that is a correct understanding of what you are saying, then it follows that you are asking that question in the context of JJ's marriage, since that is what this whole thread has been about. So let me "answer" that question by posing some questions for clarification of just what it is that you mean. Fair enough?

Let's assume for a moment that someone is in their 2nd marriage. Let's also assume for purposes of "apples to apples" in scenarios, that they married someone that they had an affair with while they were married to their first spouse. It really doesn't matter if they had 1 affair or multiple affairs for the purposes of the question, just that the person they married was a former "affair partner."

There they are in their 2nd marriage and their spouse of this second marriage has another affair with someone else, perhaps because they are are a "sex addict" or perhaps "just because." The reason is not really that important, only that they did have an affair.

The spouse who's husband/wife had this affair in this 2nd marriage now comes to MB to seek advice and help.

First scenario - they are both unbelievers, do not recognize God or Jesus Christ as having anything to do with them. Do you help them? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

Second scenario - they both became believers "late in life," after they had been married for "some time." Do you help them? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

Third scenario - the spouse who was cheated on this second time became a believer after they had been married for some time. The WS is not a believer. Do you help them? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

Fourth scenario, the WS of this second marriage finally becomes a believer after having had this second affair and comes to MB seeking help and advice? The BS in this marriage is not a believer. Do you help him/her? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

In any of these scenarios is the "answer," and the only answer that will do, "Get a divorce, you are living in continued adultery and cannot have true repentance or help until you divorce and return your spouse of yesteryear?" If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

At which point for a believer is EVERY sin they have committed forgiven and expunged by God when God forgives them? What does God REQUIRE they do in order to BE forgiven and seen by God as "sinless?"

Okay, Mrs. W., I can live with a "live and let live" sort of understanding. Really I can.

Now, how do we apply that same standard to JJ not being allowed to post on GQ II? If what someone else believes, that is different from our own belief, do we cast them off the board because they don't "see things my way?"

This is very confusing given the tenor of this thread so far, so help me if you will with the application of this rationale, especially when we are talking about someone who professes to now be a believer in Jesus Christ, albeit a "baby believer?"

What you seem to be stating is that you think I think someone other than God even needs to judge her repentance. I certainly do not mean that.

We don't judge people but we are to judge behaviour. I see someone commit murder - I can identify sin. I see someone commit adultery I can see the sin of adultery.

I find it difficult to see how someone can claim to have a heartfelt remorse for her sin yet remain in that sin. Because it really is convenient for her to say that NOW that she has her illgotten booty isn't it. Ultimately that is for God to judge not me.

I do not know her heart. I have no idea what her state before God is.

What I do know is that she is still living in a state of adultery and does not appear to have ever turned from her sin which indicates to me that she has not had that heartfelt repentance.

I will address your other questions as well.

I would like you to address one of mine first though - I have asked it several times and been ignored. I will re-post it in a minute.

Here is the post FH...

FH...

Let me ask you a question...Why does she have to be helped in this arena? Why not elsewhere where her presence won't cause dissension and grief? If your interest in helping her is altruistic it shouldn't matter to you where it takes place should it?

I believe the issue of why I believe her being helped here is damaging has been asked and answered...

Mrs. W

No - affair marriage. Cheaters cheat - surprise!


I personally would not feel I could help them no.
I don't believe they should be helped on GQII


Same as #2


Same as #2

In all these cases God will judge their hearts.


I do not think in ANY scenario the spouse must return to their original spouse - I think I said that many times now. If the original spouse is unmarried and willing and available - that would be a great thing.

Okay BK, I have tried to answer most of the posts and questions put to me, so my apology for having overlooked this one.

"It's all about JustJilly's "right" to flout her "prize" in front of the vulnerable isn't it."

BK, Jilly is not, and has not "flouted" her "prize" of a marriage to her former affair partner. She has recognized the error of her affair and the fact that it was wrong. She has been faithful for some 12 years in this marriage and has not gone down the path of seeking anyone outside of her marriage. She has, since her affair ended in divorce and since she married again, confessed her sins to God and has been forgiven by God, just as all who confess their sins and accept the grace and mercy affored to them through Jesus Christ receive from God. She, adultery and all other sins, has been totally forgiven by God. She is, as is her one flesh marriage with her husband, declared justified before God, by God, on the basis of what Jesus did for her, not by anything that she did or could do, simply because there can be NO sin remaining that is not covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus did not die for some of her sins, He died for all of them. Assuming her husband is now also a believer (and I don't know if that is true or not), then he also has been forgiven of his sins.
If he is not a believer and JJ is, then she is now in an "unequally yoked marriage" wherein her sins are forgiven but his would not be.

"No consideration by either you or her to not cause others to stumble. No consideration of a brother not causing a brother to stumble - or have you conveniently removed those passages from your Bible?"

No I have not removed those passages from my Bible anymore than you have. First, the only "brothers" who could stumble would be other believers. Second, what we are talking about is integral to all believers...forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with God through Jesus Christ even when we are offended. So when Christ tells us that when a brother comes and says "I repent," we are commanded to take them at their word and forgive them, even if that is against us, and as often as it takes. Is that "flaunting?" I don't know, but it may still hurt and God still commands us to forgive and treat them as FORGIVEN by God (forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others).

Can her sort of marriage be "painful" to unbelievers? Probably, or at least possibly. Will they care at all about "forgiveness of sin" as God has forgiven my sins? Unlikely. In fact I have had several people in that "category" of unbelievers get riled up at the mere mention of Christ. But that doesn't, and shouldn't, be a reason to not post because talking about Christ might be painful to some or seen by some as a "stumbling block."

In addition, one thread is hardly going to cause the downfall of MB. In addition, do you seriously think that I, or even JJ, would allow a WS to come on the thread and post that they are now encouraged to continue their own affair without some serious objections to that rationalization? If perchance someone read the thread and came away with idea but did not post, there would be no way to know what they were thinking anymore than if they read anything and twisted it to their own use.




"Frankly, I am persuaded as are many others that an "affair marriage" is wrong."

I know that. I happen to believe that ALL adultery and all marriages following divorce (excepting a believing BS who later remarries as God has allowed) are wrong.

I also believe that God forgives all "wrongs" for believers. Once a "wrong" has been forgiven by God it IS forgiven and is no longer "wrong." Men may still want to call it wrong, but God does not because God justifies the individual. If they are not "sinful" any longer, by God's judgment, then neither is their marriage because God will not "okay" sin nor create a sinful state of the "one flesh" that is created while declaring the believers themselves "justified" in His sight.

It is also possible that a "stumbling block" can also be placed by those who consider someone "unworthy" of help because they don't like something. JJ is a "brother in Christ," and the issue of a "stumbling block" applies to all who are in Christ.

I look forward to your responses to the other post.

Well FH I don't know what else there is that anyone can say to you.

Mrs W has posted about the comfort your attitude would have provided her as a WS.

Bob Pure similarly has posted about the effect it would have on him.

Your compassion for the hurting people, the MANY has clearly been superseeded by your compassion for the one.

Very sad.

This was your answer, but not the "why" of your answer. Could you expand on your reasons for your answer of "not."




I agree. But I was talking about your extending or not extending help to them and your reasons for either decision on your part.




Splitting hairs? Because I was not precise enough in my question perhaps?

Remove the "return to spouse number 1" and let the remainder of the question remain: In any of these scenarios, is the "answer," and the only answer that will do, "Get a divorce, you are living in continued adultery and cannot have true repentance or help until you divorce? If not all scenarios, then which scenario would "get a divorce" NOT be the answer?

FH... Jilly...MM... if you can find no practical reason to stop addressing ANY affair M on these boards... perhaps here is one that should stop you dead in your tracks...
YOUR actions today... and everyday that this continues...gives offense to other Christians that have asked you to stop your behavior... and yet here you are still defending the indefensible.... willingly continuing a behavior that is harmful to other Christians.
Please tell me MM, FH or JJ... what harm is done JJ if she has to take her issues to another place??? What harm is done if she is to leave these boards and you guys set up a method to communicate outside of MB (which has been suggested to you in the past)? Please show the harm that is done.

Why doesn't somebody just set up a vote or poll? Or would that be gross?

This is La's post ... my words were that LA told her that she was "basically proud" of her. LA... you are right that you didn't use that word.... but your statement reflects that sentiment.

No one said once a liar... always a liar. While someone is lying... frankly... what you have been doing on this thread... they are in fact a liar by definition. Even YOU cannot believe all the politically correct venom that you have let fly....everything is abuse to you. You have become adept at twisting words and verbal gymnastics. You have become an expert at finding offense where none existed. This appears to be nothing more than an exercise to you.... and frankly I have tired of your antics. For one who attempts to come across as enlightened... and btw... you try to hard as to render it comical...you are showing yourself to be something less than genuine here. Take offense at that LA because it was certainly intended.
Your continued use of the word abuse is in fact abusive...

And thank you for the above reply to MMarc57 as she now has seen fit to reply yet again on that thread. You have been given clear and real answers as to why an A marriage being supported here is offensive to most...yes, LA most. Yet here you are encouraging another one to exist on these boards.

Because I would be very curious to see just how many really think she shouldn't be here and how many think it's really ok.

Oh well. I tried.

Could just stone them.