NOW

She most certainly has the right to post here.

But so does everybody else to stating their objections, upset, dismay, shock, sympathy...whatever.

What many of us are suggesting is a "quiet corner" as a settlement offer...a more appropriate place where believe it or not, our friends, FH, LA, Neak, MM CAN actually help her in peace.

None of us have the power or authority to banish anyone.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Mr. Wondering

"ANY" seemed clear enough to me, MEDC. I'm not a mind reader though and perhaps you, in retrospect, wanted to modify the word to better fit your "have you decided to stop beating your wife" question.

I don't know, but my answer still stands. You asked, I answered.


And while we are talking about "answering," I am still waiting for BK to answer the questions he promised to answer. You out there somewhere BK!?!?!?

MEDC, BIGK, Noodle, ML, MM, FH, and everyone else....you are all absolutely brilliant people with so much to offer...why waste your time and energy on the discussion in this thread when you can be doing so much good on other threads?

Just go "out there" and do what you do best...prevent other affair marriages from happening...make that your passion, your purpose....that's what is needed.

FH...nope... no modification...only clarifying...if I meant you have done it frequently, I would say that.

And FH... as far as your attitude... sit & spin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Aw, come on you two....take it to the playground and have it out on the see-saw!

Theological debates aside, I noticed that JJ last posted on this (or any other) thread on 4/22 which is back on page 18 by my settings -- and this thread is up to page 38 (also by my settings).

I suppose it's still recent in time (less than 1 week ago) but I would say that any new BS or WS who wanders onto this thread will be more likely distracted by the theological debate than wounded by JJ's parading anything. Not, mind you, that I'm objecting to the theological debate -- as an atheist, I'm quite interested in learning about the concepts of Eternal Security and such.

I have a couple of questions about that, if it's not offensive to ask and you'd be kind enough to indulge me:

Assuming the non-Eternal Security argument is true:

If a person is saved then unsaved -- can the person be saved again? How many times can you switch states and does it get harder each time or something?

Asuuming the Eternal Security argument is true:

If a person is truly saved (say in childhood) and then goes on to do awful, terrible things (turns away from the path of righteousness) then what happens when that person gets to Heaven? Are their different tiers of Heaven like the layers of ****** in Dante's inferno?

*stepping quietly back into the shadows*

Mys

Your friendly, neighborhood athiest

Myschae,

I would love to answer your questions right now...but I am finishing up on the post I promised to Noodle. I am sure many on here will be able to offer you the Scriptural answers to your questions. If not, then I will come back to it and see what I can do.

Before I post the answers to Noodl, I wanted to ask a couple of questions.

1. Are there any cases in the Bible where a Covenant God has made no longer applies? What I am asking, are there Covenants that are now defunct...or are all Covenants always applicable?

2. Is there anyone in this discussion that does not know what a covenant is?

Also, as I formulate my response to Noodle and wait on the answers to these questions, I wanted everyone to know that I will be making a response to the concerns here and what to do about them (in regards to JJ's thread on GQII).

Goodmorning you'all!
JustJilly...we are all waiting with baited breath to hear from you again.

Mr. Wondering, It's to early in the morning for me to track down the post where JJ listed her 1st husbands 'fine' attributes. I do believe it was listed. I'm on my way to work, so I'll dig it up and affirm or correct myself latter. Iv'e got to prepair my wedding hall to welcome another couple to the priviliged class. Not a heathen party this time, but a baptist(bride) and dutch reformed (groom). This should be interesting.

Ahh, Thank God for making coloumbian coffee. I'm working on keep Juan Valdez employed!

My input to the theological debate...
...repentance by definition means to turn around. It was a millitary command that the seargent would speak to cause his troops to turn around when marching or in battle. This heartfelt sorrow over sins isn't true repentance. Because people have sorrow for many reasons. But the turning away is what is meant. And since JJ has not had more affairs, she more than meets the repentance criteria...hmm

This reminds me of a story. I once worked with a guy in a kitchen who was a pain to work with. Didn't pull his weight. Lazy, bad work. People could barely eat his food. But he kissed the owners you know what really good. So justice was not only denied, but the owner thought he was the next Emeril. I told him and I quote myself "Jesus loves you, but everyone else thinks your an a**hole." The people I was debating with said to me how can a christian talk like that. I told them I was accurate.. about a year later this same person came up to me (while i still thought he was kin to the anti-christ) and asked me if I knew of a good church to go to because he wanted to learn about God. I about fell on the floor with a heart attack! "God", I asked, "what are you doing?" Anyway I barely evaded the Jonah complex and saw him change and not by his own efforts. Sanctification is not what we do, but the indweling spirit that changes the things that we do because of our awarness.

Good Day You'all and God Bless

Anyway, off to the kithcen mine you'all...

Myschae, Once saved always saved is not a good way to express the concecpt, although you hear it alot. Theologicaly - Those who are truly save will persavere to the end. Just like there is no way we can be good enough to get into heaven, we can't be bad enough to get out of heaven once we are truly save. So in you eternal security question, the person who was saved and then 'acted' very bad would get into heaven. see Rom 4:5

enjoy

My response to Noodle's questions...and really the whole problem with what some consider an "affair" marriage in JJ's case, will be coming in several installments (like the roles of Husbands and Wives link at the bottom of my post here).

I did want to qualify one thing before I got started. Lest anyone say otherwise...I do believe that there is such a thing as an adulterous marriage...as I will outline in the passages to come. I think some here think that I dont believe that there is such a thing.

Now that I have got that out there...let me start. Oh yeah...one more note...I know this may take a little while this morning. I also know as I post this, many will want to start in on what I have posted. That's okay. And I will chime in also to the responses. But I am going to try to stay focused on finishing all of the sections here so we can have an overall discussion. If everyone can please keep that in mind, then we wont get bogged down and can get all of it out there before locking into a deeper discussion.

And with that...the first installment is coming in a few minutes.

who keeps stealing my d's?

I am borrowing much of this from a few sermons and studies that were well done and cover this ground adequately.

The first issue to all of this is to understand why God created marriage in the first place. From a sermon I heard awhile back, the pastor had rolled this into three reasons why God created marriage:

1. Procreation. Many people out there think that this admonition was because God wanted us to add more humans to the Earth. Nope! God wanted us to add more Christians to the Earth. More children raised under His Law and His commands. Genesis 1:28 covers this. It is God wanting His people to expand and have dominion over the Earth.

2. Divine Illustration. A marriage is supposed to model the relationship between Christ and the Church. A marriage that works under the same relationship Christ has with the Church ends up being a great example of Christ and His relationship with believers. A marriage that is not doing so is a bad example of this. And a divorce is no example of this!

3. Self-realization. This is where we get happiness in marriage from. Remember, there are two reasons above that have NOTHING to do with being happy or finding a soulmate, etc!! But in the third, marriage is about completing the other person. About that person being more than who they are alone. Remember, God says that when He joins a husband and wife together, they become one flesh. One living entity. Only broken by death. In Genesis 2:18, God said He created Eve for Adam because Adam was not complete. Marriage is supposed to complete the other person.

Because God set these three goals/purposes for marriages, He needed to make sure marriages were protected and boundaries put in place. This is where the concept of covenant comes in.

Next post...the marriage covenant.

In Malachi, God outlines that marriage is a covenant:


So, what is a covenant? Well, it is a contract of sorts. Legally binding. But a covenant has an added part (which is why it is a covenant and not just a contract). And that is that a covenant is a relationship contract. In a contract, it outlines how people will pay, or perform services, etc. A covenant outlines how people will relate and get along with each other.

Now, once we understand that a covenant is a legally binding relationship, then what do we need to know about the marriage covenant?

Well, first, we need to make sure we understand that the marriage covenant is a legal relationship set-up by God.

In Hebrew, the word witness means a legal accuser. In the case of what He was saying in Malachi, God was stating that He has seen their breaking of the Law and is now an accuser against them. He is standing in court, bearing witness to them breaking their covenant with God and their spouse.

As was said above, marriage is a covenant made under divine law. We can make and break all the laws we want on Earth. But only God has authority over His laws. Matthew 19:6 bears this out:

But here is what we do. We go to the Church (and God) to marry us...but we go to the courthouse to have man divorce us. Here is the problem with such flawed thinking...it is that we want God to bless the judge's decision, even if it is in direct violation of God's laws! Here is a great quote: "When a human being in a black robe bangs a gavel and says, Divorce granted, God does not automatically nod in agreement. If the grounds for divorce don't measure up in God's eyes, the Lord will ignore the judge's decree, leaving you...from God's point of view...just as married as ever."

Which is what a lot of the passages Noodle stated outline...that if a man puts his wife away (divorces her) for other than Scriptural grounds, then God still sees the first marriage as valid.

Now, the second thing to understand after getting the fact that marriage is a legal relationship established by God, is that the marriage covenant functions under authority. A covenant would be non-enforcable if there was no authority involved in the relationship. 1st Corinthians 11 outlines the chain-of-command in a marriage. Christ is over ever man, the husband is over the wife and God is over Christ. Children are to submit to the authority of their parents. So, the point here is that all authority rests in God...He is at the top. And this applies to marriage. What we want, what we feel...are all secondary issues!!!

The third thing to remember about a marriage covenant is that all covenants are broken under the penalty of death. When a man or woman breaks any covenant with God, they die immediately. Right there! That instant!! Here is the Biblical reference for this:

Now ask yourself this question...if God said that when/if Adam aate of the tree, that he would die that instant...then why didnt Adam die that instant? Well, he did...just not the way we expect. Adam was kicked out of the Garden. He was removed from the presence of God. Their relationship was broken. He hadnt physically died. But He did indeed die!! A spiritual death.

Spiritual death is separation from God. That is the definition. When we break a covenant with God, we are immediately separated from Him. And once we are separated from God, we are dead.

The fourth thing to understand about the marriage covenant is that there is a cause and effect between our faithfulness to the marriage covenant and our relationship with God. In Malchi 2:13-14, the people are weeping and groaning because God is ignoring their offerings. This is the effect of them not upholding the marriage covenant. With dealing treacherously with their wives. Even in the New Testament, we find the same conclusions:
God is saying that if a husband does not dwell with his wife in this way, then his prayers will be stopped (ignored). Cause and effect.

Satan likes to make us think this is not true. Or that it doesnt happen immediately. In Genesis 2:4, he tells Eve "you shall not surely die." And the lie continues to this day!!

The last thing to understand about the marriage covenant is that it is a means where God transfers blessings. In Deuteronomy 28: 1-4, God outlines what He means:

And then most of the rest of the chapter lists out a whole bunch more blessings. And then God says:
And then He goes on to list a whole bunch of curses.

So, God is giving us a choice here. If you uphold the covenant, you get blessings. If you break it, you get curses. Cause and effect.

So, Malachi 2:16, "I hate divorce" takes on a new meaning in light of all of this. it has nothing to do with whether a husband and wife live together or what happens to the kids or if we can make it financially. God says He hates divorce because it is a breaking of a covenant.

Okay, next stop is to discuss the Biblical grounds for divorce.

BigK,

I've given up on sleep tonight.

"No consideration by either you or her to not cause others to stumble. No consideration of a brother not causing a brother to stumble - or have you conveniently removed those passages from your Bible?"

What do you mean by stumble? I remember someone else quoting about all food is clean, but if what a man eats causes his brother to stumble, he is wrong.

Is stumble pain?

What stumble was to me was to cause others to doubt, to lose their spiritual path, like gaslighting. To say to a recovering alcoholic, "Come on, drink with me. One drink won't kill ya! You're a wussy and you're overreacting believing it will."

Am I close?

"Your compassion for the hurting people, the MANY has clearly been superseeded by your compassion for the one."
Is this about quantity, then? I have a difficult time with quantifiers.

Here is Jesus speaking in Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Quantity wasn't the issue, that I can see. He separated the sheep from the goats by those who chose to provide what they had to those who didn't have...and said the unrighteous were the ones who didn't.

To me, it's not the quantity because of what he said.

And I think that is why I'm hurting so deeply right now. And so very afraid. I feel very immature right now. I am posting from the mindset of a very cautious and trembling child.

I realize we humans do this...sacrifice the few for the many. I'm trying to discover why this has hit me as wrong all my life. I know this can be represented by what Jesus did...gave up his own life to give many the opportunity to abide with him. I can't quantify it...my mind can't go to those numbers, because they seem immeasurable to me.
Is that what makes his choice the greatest? I believe if there had only been a few people on this earth, he would have done it anyway. I don't see where love quantifies. I'm not arguing, I'm asking.

I'm looking for guidance. I believed that Jesus came and changed the Law. From reading this thread, now I am uncertain and confused. I had seen the Old Testament as set in the context of specific conditions...do not do this for this reason; or that, for that reason. Thousands of specifics, and I saw conditional love. Just what I saw.
Like earning love. Earning punishment. Earning salvation.

In this child-perspective of mine, I remember clearly thinking that if I acted perfectly, I could be like Elijah and go to heaven in a fiery chariot. That that was the best you could do. In my Sunday school classes, we spent a lot of time in the Old Testament, memorizing verses. Didn't mean I knew what they meant...only what I thought they did.

Then in the New Testament, I saw a Law which was not specific act to act, meting out punishments, situation by situation...I saw the first "do" commandments without the predominant "do not" - Love God with all my heart, my soul, and my might; and Love my neighbor as myself. And I was told that if I were to choose to do this, then I would keep all the other commandments. Because by choosing to love God, I would act from love; same for myself and others. I would act from love.

I see this as Jesus saying, "This is the way humans were meant to live, from love." Not how we earned everlasting life. To receive that, we didn't choose to act to earn it, we had to choose to believe to experience it...Jesus coming into ourselves and our lives, forever.

I'm sharing my beliefs here; I'm not saying others are wrong...I'm saying this was my understanding. I'm here to increase my understanding. To examine my beliefs. Which is what I did when I came to MB in the first place, seeking support and was told to work on myself. I heard I wasn't a bad person, I was living badly. I was living from lousy morals and false beliefs. Those I can change...and believe I have. I'm still working on myself.

And I was a BS then, already a FWS.

I had to own..."I know what I did was wrong and why it was wrong. I'm not going to make those choices again from false beliefs." I heard JJ say that (I'm summarizing) and so many others over the years. I related to them because that was my experience..."I see now, I get it. I didn't think or believe this way before."

Which is why I say posters here are brave when they are honest. When they own and want to change. To me, there's no bravery in a wayward state of mind. To justify is to act from fear, from the belief one way does less harm (if they don't know it won't hurt them), so I think that's part of my confusion with quantifying. Justifying.

And if harm is hurt...and if ML, BP, MEDC are justifying hurting me, JJ, FH to save what they believe are many, am I wrong to feel pain?

Maybe I'm gaslighting myself here.

I fear causes. I've experienced them to corrupt themselves by not holding to their own principles...in the name of the cause. Like in the name of God to act ungodly. I believe Jesus gave us the opportunity, not the right to abide with him. He did not revoke choice.

And I believe freedom of choice is a right for all humans, not a belief. Given to us in our very creation as human beings.

Am I causing others to stumble in their journey? Am I doing harm to others right now? I remember on the other locked thread MarriedForever expressing how betrayed she felt by MM, FH and myself. She was hurting from a false recovery, another DDay and I heard her, and her suffering cut hard into me and I asked myself...whom do I choose to betray? MF or myself? Or JJ? Where is the real betrayal? I didn't trust myself to know because I had lied to myself for years, not seeing betrayal and me doing it.
I believe in JJ's repentance...I believe in her...and I believe in MF. I did believe in myself, my intent. And I believe there is not only pain for fresh BS and WS's in JJ's story...there is validation, comfort, that A marriages are no prize, just fantasy...and fantasy does end. Not because that's what WS's deserve...because fantasy always ends...not real.

That's a clear line to me. The principle that our struggle is to know reality from fantasy. To own our choices, see them fully, weigh consequences and be aware of them...to act not in disregard for others' feelings, and to not live from them, either.

Part of my quandry is putting other BS's feelings ahead of my feelings or JJ's or MM57. I broke the first commandment repeatedly. I put other humans ahead of God. Which is why I'm blurry (not calloused) on what constitutes disregard or not. I worshipped my DH...looked to him to meet my every need, heal my every wound and protect me from all hurt--as if he were God and I were nothing.

I know that's not a great way to live. I believe I was blaspheming.

And I now look to God to help me know my needs from my wants, healthy desires, to guide me where to heal and how to heal, to know where my wounds come from, so I will not choose to live from those wounds...and free myself from pain to live from love.

Judging pain, to me, is impossible for humans. I rely on God to know. He is in us, knows first hand, without the hamper of language. He gave us emotions for a reason...if they are to live by, then we are lost. Jesus did not die for our pain; he died to remove the consequence of our sinfulness, which was divorce from God. He gave us opportunity, not certainty. It was horribly painful for him in his human body...and he did it, anyway.

Which is why I am asking if pain is the measurement here; who hurts most wins; or the most who hurt wins; or if there is only loss here...for everyone. I don't know. I'm asking to know. I asked before and wasn't answered.

If pain is the yardstick, then what about the pain of all the BS's who once were WS's, coming here, to change their lives and their marriages, when you judge them as A marriages? Applying the scripture that Aphelion posted, that when a WS is divorced by a BS, then the WS cannot marry anyone without it being an A marriage, because their adultery continues unless they remarry their BS?

Whom do we protect? Those hurting the most? And how will doing it where it won't be seen (I just caught my typo "scene") the right thing to do when that's exactly what WS's do...so they don't harm their spouse? That's my understanding of the reasoning I'm hearing.

I think I've finally gotten to the underlying belief that has me in this state: If protecting others from pain, limiting their awareness, their choice is your intent, then how is that different from an affair?

I believe that to know truth causes no harm. We may experience it as a painful truth. Or joyous ones. This is what I experienced...my truth. The act of sharing honestly, without the intent to shield (which would distort truth through withholding) or attack (beating others with their beliefs), is an act to share truth. All of it. Saying that she would only be decent if she took her shunning because WS will use this to justify their choices...

proves the point, doesn't it? The whole wayward state of mind is to point to others to justify their fantasy. Not to own their own choices and see the consequences. You say this is what JJ is doing...and I say, this is what I see moving to QC doing.

Justifying.

And this message to BS's...shield yourself from pain, turn away from hearing about anyone's experiences which may cause you to fear more, rather than understand fantasy taken to great lengths...how does that save a marriage? We ask BS's to consider acting from their belief, their own goal...not based on their painful feelings. Is this where I've messed up? Pain is like love? Pain is not only a feeling, but also a belief?

I don't want to be right; I want to do the right thing.

LA

Have you ever wondered at the timing of the Lord? Yesterday I received in the mail my latest copy of “The Voice of he Martyrs.” There is an article in it that strikes to the heart and may very well be appropriate for this “opposing views” we’ve been engaged in on this thread.

I offer it to you for your reading. You decide for yourselves what God might be saying to your hearts. God bless.


A tourist to Malaysia can walk into church on Sunday morning for worship, but a Malay cannot. Over half of the 25 million population are darker-skinned Malays (not Chinese or Indian) who are forbidden to go into a church because they are required to stay Muslim.

What about those Malays who become Christians? They are caught between two worlds – an organized church which is “justly” afraid and their families who usually reject them.

How do these little bands of believers sprinkled across this nation survive, grow and multiply in their hidden world? This is their story.

Sitting side by side on the couch, the three Malaysian friends were an interesting combination of personalities. There was the quiet one, “Dian,” who always knew just the right Scripture. “Budi,” excited and enthusiastic, talked a mile a minute. “Felipe,’ the laughing one, could never be dismayed. Most would not guess that for seven years these three met secretly as a “church.” Barred from church buildings and rejected by their Muslim families, together they followed Jesus in the only way they knew how. Felipe told us how they first learned about Jesus. “When we were small, we would sneak into the church and sit behind the pillars in the sanctuary so they would not see us.”

Their hiding did not go unnoticed, however. Soon there was pressure on the church to keep the boys out. Felipe has no hard feelings. He says, “The Anglican priest was a kind man. He would come up to us and whisper, ‘Please try not to come often to church. You can come maybe once a month or every two months. The religion department called us. They said, ‘Why do you allow these Malays to worship in your church?’”

Budi and Dan nodded, remembering. Budi says the government puts a lot of pressure on the churches to keep ethnic Malays out. “Here, the Buddhist Chinese can convert to Christianity, or the Indian Hindu, but not the Muslim Malay. They have no right at all to choose their faith.”

Felipe told us, “Sometimes we would go to the church when no one was there. We would take a bulletin, sit in the pew and try to pray. Being Muslim, we did not know a lot about Jesus, but we were drawn by the love. We were on a journey. Once, one of our Christian friends gave me some pork to eat. I felt guilty, so after brushing my teeth, I prayed, ‘Allah, I’m sorry.’ And, I began to hit myself with my fist. I found there was no relationship in my prayer with Allah. One day, we asked the priest for a Bible to learn about God’s love. He gave us a beautiful Bible.”

The boys were thrilled. They hid the Bible during the day and only read it when they felt it was safe.

“Since our families were Muslim, we were worried they might see us reading the Bible through the cracks in our wooden bedroom walls,” said Felipe. “At night we used a flashlight, but the batteries died and they cost too much money. IF we turned on the light my aunt would beat on the wall, so we had to find another way.” God provided one for the boys in a unique way.

“Each month we cleaned the Christian cemetery. We did not ask for money, but just wanted to be near the church. We found candles under the leaves in front of the tombstones. We lit them at night under the bed or under the sheet to read the Bible, but we were always afraid of fire. I would be careful to hold the candle straight up, letting the hot wax drip down on my hand while we read. I even burned some of hair once! Our Bible was King James English, so we prayed using ‘thee’ and ‘thou.’ We later got a Bible we could understand better.” Felipe laughed, “We burned a lot of candles!”

“For seven years, three of us met together. We prayed together, sang together and listened to Christian cassettes,” Budi said, smiling.

Felipe agreed, “We had such a hunger for the Word of God. We wanted to know everything.”

Dian spoke up quietly fro the corner of the couch, his dark eyes intense. “One of our non-Malay friends gave us the devotional book, Our Daily Bread. Since we could not go to Sunday school, it was like our Sunday school teacher. Christian bookstore managers were afraid of the Muslim prohibitions and, seeing our dark skin, would refuse to sell us Christian books. We would rebuke them and tell them we were Christian believers. Sometimes, if no one else was in the store, they would sell us a book.”

The three men became more serious. “We shared Jesus with our friends,” Budi told us. “They said, ‘You are crazy.’ I knew we could be killed. Sixty-one percent of people in our country are Malay Muslims. We were always told in the mosque, ‘Don’t go deeper with Jesus or you will be distracted.’”

Felipe added, “We were forced to learn Arabic and go to Koran classes, but instead of going to the mosque we would go play in the river.” At this, all three laughed. “We were not yet fully ‘born again,’ but we knew in our hearts that Jesus was God. We wanted to be baptized, but no church will officially baptize a Malay. Once, we borrowed a blue covered book on baptism from the church lobby and took it home to study. The new rode a small motorbike to the ocean and baptized each other. As we prayed and said, ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,’ we went under the water three times. We got a lot of saltwater in our mouths, but were full of the joy of the Lord.”

“Sometime after our baptism I went back to the church. I had washed my only good pants at midnight the night before and I walked some kilometers to be there in time for the service. I went down to the altar and stood in line for communion. The priest was shocked to see me and asked where I had been baptized. I so badly wanted communion It told him, ‘Kuala Lumpur,’ the capital city. Although he may not have believed me, he courageously gave communion to me in front of his congregation.”

Authorities knew the three friends were believers, but never bothered them until they were adults. Dian told us about the day police came to their house. “Twenty-four men in uniform and plain clothes stood in the yard. They took us to their building and put us in different rooms. They asked each of us, ‘Who paid you or offered you a good job to become a Christian?’ We gave them Christian answers. They were amazed that all of our answers were the same. We explained this was the Holy Spirit and then spent some hours explaining the Scriptures to them.”

Felipe added, “One policeman held some pictures he had taken from my bedroom. I had drawn some angels and a cross. He held them up and said, ‘What is this? Did you become a Christian because you were offered money or land?’ I replied, ‘No, that would be a shame for me. I became a Christian because I wanted an encounter with God. If 10 people were to beat me up maybe I would not shed my tears, but in the presence of the Lord, in the church when I worship, I can shed my tears.’ The policeman asked, ‘Why? Do you feel so sad to be in a church?’ I said, ‘No, I can feel the tender love of God.’”

The consequences of believing in Jesus are serious for Malays. Dian said some of their Muslim-convert friends have had electric shock treatment or have been taken to Muslim “rehabilitation centers” where religious authorities try to force them back to Islam. “One of our friends is totally mad because they burned his brain. Sometimes they will kidnap you in a van. A few teachers train their school children to spit on any student they know has become a Christian.”

Budi said harassment is common for Malay believers. “When my grandmother became a Christian she was questioned by the special branch of the police. The vicar of a church near her home was very angry when she walked in one day. He was also angry at my father standing beside her and said, ‘Why must you do these things? Why are you bringing problems to the church? Do you want them to pack up my bag and send me out of Malaysia in 24 hours?’ He was Australian. When non-Malay Christians see my now-converted relatives coming up to their homes for a visit, they are afraid and close the door in their face.” Budi sighed sadly, but his resolve was evident. “Our government says there is freedom of religion in Malaysia. Yes, there is freedom of religion, but it is among non-Malays. Malaysia even blocks Christian broadcasts coming in on satellite, but they cannot block Jesus.”

Dian smiled in agreement and said softly, “In almost 20 years, our church has grown from three to seven or eight, including my wife. But the Word of God, Zechariah 4:10, says not to despise small beginnings. Jesus said, ‘When two or three are gathered together I will be in their midst.’ We always stand on the gospel, no matter what. We are not moved by man or his words, but any word that comes from God causes us to move.”

These three friends say they choose to be obedient, even if it means “Muslim rehabilitation” or persecution. They will continue to point others to Christ.

“Although it is risky, we share the kindness of Jesus with waitresses in restaurants and in villages,” Dian said. “We pray for hurting people. We do not argue about the Koran or the Bible. Religious debates never saved anybody. In our young days of ministry, we made enemies by trying to be smart with our Christian knowledge and bring them down. That is a waste of God’s time. Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship between us and God. Every opportunity is a divine moment. You must not be self-centered but live for other people and care for them. Muslims are coming to Jesus.”

When asked what they would like to say to their family in Christ in the U.S., Dian spoke up, “As far as opposition from this world, remember that no matter how hot the fire is around you, it cannot burn out the fire within you.”

To be legally considered Christian, the government requires Malay believers to get approval to change their faith from the Islamic religious authority. But the religious authority does not allow Malays to leave Islam; to be Malay is to be Muslim.

Until 1988, the religious status of Malaysian citizens was decided by the High Court. After that time, a new clause was added to Article 121 of the Malaysian Constitution. It mandated that civil courts no longer had jurisdiction over matters within the jurisdiction of Shariah courts. This included religious conversion issues. Today, all 13 states are allowed to create a duel system. One set of civilian laws apply to all citizens, while a limited system based on Islamic law applies to Muslims only. That means converts from Islam are legally in a state of limbo, stranded between two systems of law.

The Malaysian government requires each citizen’s religious affiliation to be noted on his national identity card. In 1998, Muslim convert to Christianity, Lina Joy, attempted to change the religious affiliation on her identification card to Christian so she could marry he Christian fiancé. Joy needed to make the change because interfaith marriages are prohibited in Malaysia. In 2001, the High Court ruled that as an ethnic Malay, Joy would “exist under the tenets of Islam until her death.”

After more than eight years of legal wrangling, a final ruling the case is yet to be decided by the Malaysian High Court. The case strikes at the heat of Malaysian society because while Article 11 of the nation’s constitution guarantees religious freedom, Islamic Shariah law prohibits Muslims from leaving Islam. If the court orders the National Registration Department to drop “Islam” form Joy’s national identity card, then the supremacy of the secular constitution over Islamic law will be affirmed.

Jesus declared he had “nowhere to lay his head” (Matthew 8:20). Here is the testimony of a petroleum engineer who understands this passage:

“Although some in my family are Muslim leaders, I was blessed to hear some music when I was six years old. A few houses away a Christian family sang every morning during their devotions. Through the open window, I could hear a saxophone. The melody would lift me up every morning. I would hum this song as I played in the yard. Some years later, I learned that it was ‘Amazing Grace.”

“Our Muslim family sent me to an Anglican school to get an English education. In the 1950’s there was no Islamic Shariah law pressure like today. Every Monday morning, in our gray and white uniforms, we would gather in the chapel assembly hall, recite the Lord’s Prayer and sin some hymns. I sang ‘Jesus Loves Me’ and ‘The Old Rugged Cross.”

“Walking home in my short pants, hitting rocks with a stick, I would say the Lord’s Prayer. A fanatical neighbor heard me and told my grandfather, an imam, ‘How can your grandson say a Christian prayer?’ I was banished to another part of Malaysia to live with my divorced mother and go to a state Muslim school.

“However, the Holy Spirit had already touched me through His music. My stepfather, a police officer, would always be late to pick me up from school. I would walk across the road and sit outside a church hall to listen to the choir of non-Malays practice for Sunday. Sitting on the step, I sang with the choir for three years.

“My family tried to force me back into Muslim ways, but I noticed that being a Christian and believing in Christ is being happy, even when you are sad. He will make you happy if you sing songs and pray. So, caught in the middle for 40 years, I wandered in the wilderness.

“As an adult, I worked for a big oil company and I drank like a fish. One night in Sabah, a more Christian area in East Malaysia, I found a Gideon Bible in English in my hotel room. For the first time, I read the Bible. My hunger for God’s Word was so great I read it three nights in a row. When I would go to my room early, my friends would ask me if I had a woman. Once, I read all night then was afraid I would not do well at the refinery, but I was very sharp the next day. My heart was becoming redeemed. The gospel was like fuel in me. Now, I read the Bible as a habit.

“I still went to the mosque, but would pray to Jesus when I bent over on the rug. Then I found a small Christian group in a house and began fellowshipping with them. One Sunday night when I came home late, my wife asked me, ‘Are you having an affair?’ I said, ‘Yes, with Jesus Christ.’ I shared some Scripture with her. She said, ‘Why did you become a Christian? Are you angry with me?’ For a while I read the Bible upstairs and my family read the Koran downstairs. Then my wife and our children, all adults and serious Muslims, left me. According to Muslim law, I am no longer married to my wife because I left Islam. I still love them and pay support for them.

“I found a handful of Malay converts to have fellowship. Now, I felt at home. I stayed for two days at this house reading Scripture. Then I was baptized wit a few others in a swimming pool.

“After speaking in a Full Gospel businessmen’s meeting I shared that I was a Malay convert. They were shocked. The government has spies everywhere; even in meetings like these. I had to run again and sleep in someone’s office for three days. I have slept in five different houses as the authorities look for me.

“It is not difficult for me to be on the run. I praise God – I give all my praise to Him. The little Anglican school building is still there, but the classes are closed. It was part of God’s plan for me to be there.

“Since my skin is not so dark, I will sometimes visit an open church service. I will introduce myself to the pastor and ask him if it is okay to be there. I do not want to cause problems. Some of them tell me the truth that I do not like to hear, ‘You must go somewhere else or this will be dangerous for us.’

“some Malay-Muslim converts in their small groups feel a grudge against the churches, but it should not be that way. Some pastors will secretly baptize us, but do not want us at their churches.”

What would you or your church do if faced with this challenge? If you knew you could be punished, you property seized and your church closed by the government, would you risk taking in and baptizing Muslim background believers in Christ? If you refuse to embrace them, would that indicate you and members of your church lacked perfect love and the ability to love Muslims unconditionally?

For the first 300 years of Christianity, the word “martyr” meant witness. How much encouragement do we need to be His witness? If only three or four believers with their Bibles can be potent witnesses for 20 years, what about us?

To be a Malay Christian is to truly understand Jesus’ words on when “two or three” gather together in His Name. Remember the Malay Christians in your prayers.

This next question is beginning to get at the heart of the debate here.

When is a marriage legitimately and Biblically dead? What ends the marriage in the sight of God?

In Matthew 19:3, the Pharisees were asking this exact question when they cornered Jesus. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?"

Well, folks...this debate we are having has been going on forever. In Jesus time, there were two main camps of thinking on this matter. First was those that followed Rabbi Hillel, who stated that a man could divorce his wife for any cause. He might not like the way she cooks his eggs...so out she goes!

The second school of thought was Rabbi Shamai, who said that there is only one permissible reason for divorce...and that is immorality.

What the Pharisees wanted Jesus to do was to decide which camp was right. And Jesus responds by opening Scripture:

There are three points to get out of this. First, God created them. Second, God married them. And third, He made them one flesh.

You see, the Pharisees wanted Jesus to make a ruling on divorce...but Jesus made it clear that there is no way you can understand divorce until you understand marriage.

But of course, the Pharisees kept up the challenge. They asked Him:

They wanted to know...if God had made it so hard to divorce, why had Moses made it so easy? In Deuteronomy 24:1-4, it had stated that if a husband had found uncleanness, he could put his wife away.

You see, Jesus is saying that Moses relented in the face of stubborn disobedience. But then He follows this with:

In Jesus' statement here, we find out that not only is a man that divorces his wife committing a sin, but that he is startign a cycle of sin which will involve several others. If this man's wife remarries, then she will be committing adultery and so will her new husband. Three or more adulterers are now in a sin-filled cycle. All because this man divorced his wife for unBiblical reasons.

Today, we have divorces for irreconciable differences. We have many come on here and state that they cannot stay with their current spouse...and why would God want them to stay where it appears they will never get along and no one will be happy? And the answer is simple...in God's eyes, there are no differences that are irreconcilable!!

We have to keep in mind what I posted above. The marriage is supposed to be a model of Christ's relationship with the Church. We would all be in deep poo-poo if He divorced us everytime we went astray!!

Okay, now that we have discussed this, I will post next on how the marriage covenant is broken.

LovingAnyway,




That's what I wondered, too.