Since Jesus states that the only reason for a divorce is immorality, we first need to understand what immorality means Biblically. In Leviticus 18:3, we get a good idea of that meaning:

God is saying He doesnt care what they do in Egypt or Canaan...you MUST obey MY commands. If we paraphrase this, He is saying "I dont care if human law allows no-fault divorce...those are Egypt's and Canaan's statutes. They are NOT Mine.You will live by My laws, not theirs!" And this applies to everything in our lives. In short, if we keep His laws, we live. If we dont, we die.

As Leviticus 18 continues, He goes on to list the kind of behavior that will bring spiritual death and destroy the marriage covenant. These include incest, adultery, immoral behavior with children, beastiality and homosexuality. In the New Testament, the word pornia is used to describe this behavior...which means to any kind of sexually deviant behavior.

Immorality without repentence breaks the covenant and legitimizes a divorce in the eyes of God.

Paul goes further on Jesus' teachings on divorce to state:

What Paul is saying is that a believer is no longer held to the marriage, that the covenant is broken, should an unbeliever decide to leave. Of course, this is only if the believer has been acting in the Bibilically outlined roles and responsibilities that they have been given and didnt jsut "run off" the unbeliever.

When Paul stated the believer is not under bondage, he means that he is no longer bound to the covenant and is free to enter a new one...but only with another Christian (2nd Corinthians 6:14).

Next stop...who decides???

A big question arises now. Who decides when a divorce is legitimate in God's eyes?

Well, the Bible outlines how legal disputes are to be dealt with between believers (remember...if one of the spouses is an unbeliever, then the believing spouse should let the unbeliever go). What we are talking about now is a divorce between believers.


So, if my neighbor is my spouse, where do I go when I have been wronged by her? Well, the answer here is to take it to the Church court. Remember, what goes on in man's court is governed by man's laws...what goes on in a Church court is governed by God's laws. Thus, the Church has been given the power by God to render judgments on His behalf, based on Scripture.

Exodus 18 outlines how these courts will be set up. Basically a system of lower courts, like today in the U.S., are set-up. Well, the same goes with the Church court, with God being the Supreme Court.

In Matthew 18, we see how the Church court will operate:

So, if a fellow believer has wronged us...no matter what that wrong is...we start with the lowest court and work our way up. If we get all the way thru, and the process fails to bring restoration of our brother or sister in Christ, then we are no longer to view that believer as a Christian. He/she now takes the heading of sinner.

Here is a great example of how a church court should work:

You see, once the church has declared this person as an unbeliever ("let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. "), then we go back to what Scripture says about what a believer does when an unbeliever wants to leave the marriage.

Now some wonder where is God when the Church is making these decisions? In Matthew 18:18-20, we get the answer:

Too often, this passage is misquoted by the name it and claim it crowd! But you have to look at the context that this statement was made in (the surrounding text). This verse is talking about the legal process. All God is saying is that if the Church does as He has said, and uses His word as their guide, then we will ratify their verdict in Heaven and on Earth if asked.

So, what does this all mean? It means that the Church is given absolute authority in applying Scripture and absolute assurance that God will back the Church's decisions, as long as they are rooted in His word.

Which means...that when the Church goes thru this process, finds that the rebllious believer will not repent...and then declares that believer to be like a tax gatherer (an unbeliever), God raitifies that decision in Heaven and on Earth.

Last post coming...a summation.

Now...if my wife has committed adultery, and refuses to reconcile...what is it that Scripture is saying for me to do?

Is the fact of her adultery enough for me to divorce her? Well, no. Remember what it says above? Scripture outlines how we deal with offenses against us by another believer (again, if our spouse is an unbeliever, then we are governed by the "let the unbeliever go" principle). And it has a process. And along that path, if my adulterous wife repents, then I must take her back. If she doesnt, then we complete the path...and she is declared as a heathen. She has died spiritually and been declared so by the Church. And as is written, God also ratifies that decision.

A quick note: some wil ltake this verse to say that in this case, my wife would have lost her salvation. Not so. The key is in the wording. Scripture didnt say that she became a tax gatherer...a sinner. It says she was to be treated as such. Treated how? Treated as a sinner in order to make a legal decision conerning the offense against me. If she was saved, she still is. But for the sake of this decision by the Church, she is treated as a sinner.

Remember, when you break God's laws, you die. Immediately. Does that mean that everytime I sin, I lose my salvation? No. Remember, spiritual death means nothing more than being separated from God. Yo uare no longer in fellowship with Him.

So, how is that believer to regain fellowship? Simple. The same way as an unbeliever becomes saved. Repent and seek His face. It is that simple!

But what do we do with that broken covenant? If the Church has released the innocent one from the covenant, is that covenant still existing? Remember, a covenant is a type of contract. In a contract, there are lists of what things must be done, by all parties involved. For the contract (covenant) to continue to work, then all parties must do their parts.

If the BS is released from the covenant, how can the WS still be held to it? In order to fulfill the terms of the covenant, the WS would have to again do their part of it. But that would require the BS again doing their part, as much of the requirements have to have both spouse's participation.

It is impossible. So, what some say that a WS must do (that is still be committed to a contract that the other spouse has been released from) is an impossible task. It cant be done. And once a BS or WS remarries, then it can never be done because Scripture says that once they remarry they cannot divorce and then remarry each other. That is an abomination to the Lord.

Remember the passage about why Moses permitted divorce? It was because of the hardness of their hearts. That includes the BSs!!!

There is more here...but I will stop now to open this discussion up on this.

I will say one more thing...because of what Scripture has said...if a Christian BS here decides to divorce their Christian WS, and does so without going thru the Church...is that divorce legal in God's eyes?

According to Scripture, no it is not. Which means, when we talk about affair marriages, that BS would divorce their WS, enter into a new marriage...and be committing adultery with their new spouse.

And all the time...thinking they were justified Biblically!

Okay...the floor is now open!

Oooppsss...forgot one more thing...

How is a WS, who has gone thru this process and has been declared a sinner...and the BS has been granted their divorce...how is that WS allowed to remarry? Well, simple. They have been declared like an unbeliever by the Church and ratified so by God.

All this person needs to do is like FH has been tryign to say for days. And that is that Paul teaches that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come. (2nd Corinthians 5:17) With new birth begins a new life. Thus, a person who divorces a mate prior to becoming a Christian is allowed to remarry. And a WS who has been declared an unbeliever has the same route to becoming in fellowship with Jesus again. And is a new creation.

* Grymir

You don't have a dog in this fight, grymir, so you're either a troll, or a rubbernecker. My guess is the latter - a sick car-crash voyeur who gets kicks out of watching other people's tragedy from a comfortable computer seat. I can virtually see the smug smile as you watch the anger your flaccid incursions deliberately raise in this debate.

Your position on any issue of infidelity is as relevent as my opinion in Cross-stitch or many of the other activities I have zero experience in.

Go, and if you catch a glimpse of your reflection ,see if you like it....

* regarding my "lying "

Just to show that LA's accusation of lying of me was more drama-queenery, rather than fact here is the actual thread her advice appeared in :
Sadness thread

You will see her "infidelity is a gift" was indeed in an answer directed at Larry, but was very clearly an insight regarding affairs in general, not one constructed from analysis of larrys situation. Read her replies.

She never actually retracted that either. She believes and perhaps still does that a WS gives a gift to a BS when they cheat. No wonder JJ appreciates her advice so much.

Bob pure, I'm neither. My interest is only theological at this point. I'm all to familliar with the pain of affairs and divorce. And come out on the other side all the wiser. My interest here was sparked because someone waxed very eloquent about true salvation to someone who was worried. I should have been suprised to see the 2 theological camps go at each other instead of helping a person. You know the forgive others thingy that Jesus talked about? I saw people using JJ like the pharasies who caught the woman in an affair going on, so I finally registered to chime in as nobody really cared. And can't you wax more elequent when using ad-homonim fallacies. Who about comparing me to the Pope, or calling me the theology police, or just how about "grymir, you are wrong and here's why..." Generally when people resort to such things they have nothing intellent to say. But I'll be around. I didn't have much to say before because there were better people than I doin the talkin.

Anyway, looking forward to your next post because you validate me and meet some kind of EN. mwhaa mwhaa mwhaa! God Bless

He shoots .....!

He misses an open goal....!


Aww now grymir, don't be so hard on yourself ! ... Sure, everybody else on this thread ; maybe in the whole WORLD is a "better talkin person" than you, but take solace that you're the most unintentionally funny person here. Keep it up please ! This thread was getting too depressing 'til you came along with your slapstick "eloquence" and lack of irony! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

With you here , perhaps ...JUST perhaps the broken hearted BS and FWS who visit this depressing thread may now get a wry smile rather than just a drily pompous scriptural debate, or an affirmation that affair marriages - everything both fear the most - are just fine and God says so too.

If only this thread could be taken somewhere quieter so the attempted scriptural legitimization of affair marriages could continue in a place less potentially damaging to folks fighting affairs and fledgling recoveries... * sigh *

Now see Bob if Jilly was truely remorseful, the very possibility that her presence here may be hurting the vulnerable would be so abhorent to her that she would do exactly that in the Quiet Place Pep set up for her.

BK, in truth I have no idea why so many folks arguing on this thread do not understand this.

The debate on scripture, forgiveness and all that stuff is all well and good, it is the fact that it avoidably hurts some vulnerable onlookers that almost NO-ONE seems to recognise.

To me it is a conceit to hold this debate in a place where it may "cause one of these little ones to stumble" ( luke 17).

Can I find scripture to say that it is best to hold widely hurtful discussions away from those who may be avoidably hurt by them ? No.

But neither do I know of a scripture that exhorts us to foist hurtful, abtract, scriptural lessons on the already hurting.

I hope Jilly gets whatever help she needs, but not at the expense of avoidably hurting the wider vulnerable population.

It is like counselling a mugger in a home for victims of mugging, then saying of the victims are triggered, its their fault IMO. Compassion would have me counsel the mugger, but protect the victims from avoidable hurt. Is this not a decent thing to believe ?

Why is it more "right" to have this debate amidst the hurt victims ?

Where is the COMPASSION of Jilly and others to place their need for publicity above removing hope from the vulnerable ?

* sigh *

Okay to clear up some of the questions that have come up throughout the last 20 or so pages of this thread, I will try to give a bit of history regarding my first M. In an effort NOT to rewrite history I will refrain from justifying my choice to have an affair. I was wrong to have an affair. No doubt in my mind about that.

I met my first H when I was in high school. We were friends with some of the same people. He was a senior when I was a freshman. We did not date until later. We began dating when I was about 20 and he was 23. He was a partier. He drank a lot with his friends. I didn't think too much about it as lots of people our age were drinking then. I didn't drink much then or ever but I didn't think of it as an issue.

We began living together a couple years later. We broke up for about 6 months and I moved out. His drinking was of notable concern to me. He sort of went on the wagon so to speak. I had very little knowledge of alcoholism or addiction at that time in my life.

We got back together and I moved back in. We got engaged. He began drinking again but it didn't seem too excessive. He would have a few bingers here and there. When I say bingers I mean he would drink to the point of passing out. Since this didn't happen that often I didn't realize that this was a sign of alcoholism. I had not grown up around anyone who was alcoholic. But I was clearly aware of how much and how often he was drinking when I married him. My choice to marry him.

We got married when I was 26. I began my A with my current H about a year later when I was 27. He was also married. My A was discovered by my then H about2-3 months after it began. I came home from work to find the locks changed to our house and a note on the door that he had dropped some things off for me at my dad's house. He exposed to my family, his family, and our friends. It was exposed at our workplace although whether he exposed it there or people just figured it out on there own I am not sure of.

My dad drove back with me to our house and told my H that he could not legally kick me out of the marital home and that my H was welcome to call the cops if he liked but legally I had a right to live there, so we lived together for about a month after the exposure. We chose to separate and then I moved into one of our rental properties. I paid rent to my then H.

My belief then was that after we separated we were as good as divorced. I no longer hold that belief. A month or two after I moved out, he began dating again. One of these women he developed a more serious relationship with, and moved her and her child into our house. I didn't consider it at the time, to be an A... because in my mind we were in the process of getting a divorce and I was dating my AP then too. My belief then was once you stated separation, choose to no longer be married… then basically you were just waiting for it to be finalized. I see where I had some definite boundary issues here.

I realize now from being here, that what he was doing would also have been considered an A as well, since we were still legally married, but at the time I was not living as a Christian or following God at all, so I didn't consider what he was doing adultery. I certainly believed that I was committing adultery but I never once considered he was. I thought he was moving on with his life... much like me.

He had started his own business shortly after we had gotten married and so he was covered on my medical insurance since he didn't have any at the time. He asked if I would be willing to hold off on the divorce so that he could remain on my medical insurance. We agreed to hold off on the divorce until he could obtain medical insurance as he was being treated for depression... had been for about 2 years.

Eventually we did divorce. Meanwhile my current H and his wife had already divorced. The A had also been exposed to his wife from someone that we worked with.

To my knowledge my XH didn't use recreational drugs during the time we were married... he drank. He liked porn and felt no need to be discreet about it. He said there was nothing wrong with what he was doing. Still none of his actions caused me to have an affair. I was not justified in doing what I did for any reason. My choices rest solely on my own poor judgment. I OWN all of it now... what I did then. He did NOT deserve what I did.

Later, I moved to the same town as my current H and rented a house there. My H was renting his own separate residence and we were not living together but we were still dating... having an affair... I don't know if it is still an affair after we were both divorced, but if it is, then we were. We bought a house together in May of 1997.

In October of 1998 my mom's breast cancer spread to her brain and I found out I was pregnant. My H and I got married in Nov. of 1998. My mom died in Feb. of 1999 and our DD was born in June.

I had limited contact with my XH after I moved out of town. The contact that we had after that was pretty adversarial and mostly consisted of issues related to finances.

I contacted him after I was notified by my employer that my wages we going to be garnished by the IRS for failure to pay.

XH had asked me for all of my W2's etc. the last year we going to legally file together, so that he could prepare our taxes. Since we were still legally married we decided to file jointly. Our taxes for that year were never filed.

The conversation didn't go well and we wound up shouting at each other and I screamed at him that I never wanted to speak to him again as long as I lived. That was a horrible thing for me to say. He did not deserve that and I didn't even bother to find out why he didn't file our taxes at the time.

Some time passed and I began receiving letters from collection agencies for him regarding non payment of his bills. I asked how they got this address and phone number for him and they stated it was the one he listed to the bill collectors.

After this went on for some time I called him about this and he told me that he was going through a bankruptcy and he had given my address etc. to get them off his back. He said he had been going through a rough time.

He stated that the girl that he had been living with had moved out. (I had heard this through the grapevine before he told me and why apparently they had broken up.) I shared with him what I had heard, and he told me his side of it. Said that the daughter of the woman he was living with was really having some issues and was scared a lot at night and would frequently wet the bed. He told me he would sit with her and rub her back until she fell asleep. (The allegation that I had heard was that he had acted in some inappropriate way with this little girl... I believe she was maybe 5 or 6 at the time.)

He also shared with me that this was being said about him and that it was untrue, he had really just felt sorry for the little girl and that she seemed scared a lot. I had no reason to disbelieve him as I had never seen him act inappropriately around a child at any time since I had known him. He stated that he would stop using our address etc. for credit purposes. I took him at his word.

More time passed and I heard through the grapevine that he was hanging around with some known heroin users. I was sort of surprised to hear this but then later heard that he had met someone and had gotten remarried.

Some more time passed and he contacted me. Said his wife had left him. I asked him why... he said she had some issues and was struggling with drug addiction. He stated that he had tried to get her to stop. He didn't say he was using drugs and I didn't ask him. He began apologizing for all the things he felt he had done wrong in our M and stated that he was sorry for not contacting me when my mom died. I said I was sorry to him for the things I had done to him too. He asked me if I could help him ... try to get his wife back.

I didn't know this woman... had never met her and knew nothing about her. I asked what he thought I might be able to do to help him. He stated that she felt very threatened by me. I asked him why and he shared that he kept a picture of us together from our honeymoon up in their house. They lived in the same house we lived in when we were married. His rationale was that picture had been there since I lived there and he had never taken it down. He said he told her it was there when you moved in with me... and apparently since she didn't make a huge fuss over it when she moved in with him prior to their M... he saw no big deal with him keeping it.

He said shortly before she left him that she slammed that picture into the ground and said FU an F her too for messing your head up so much. I then asked him again how he thought me talking to her was going to help? He said maybe if I talked to her she would come back to him. I told him my feeling was that if I called her it would probably just make things worse.

He called me a couple more times in the next few months. Each time saying he was sorry and saying that he was sad because he must be doing something very wrong... he just didn't seem to be able to get M right. He wanted to know if maybe my H and I would maybe like to be friends with him and hang out some time... said he was lonely. I stated that I didn't think this would be a healthy thing for any of us. He said he understood.

I didn't hear from him for awhile and then someone at the district office called to let me know that he had called the district office trying to get them to release information to him about where I worked or a current phone number. My H and I had moved but our phone number was listed so I am not sure what his intent was. He left a cell phone number for me to call. The district informed me that they had not nor would not (against district policy) give him any information about what site I was working at but that they told him they would pass his message on to me which they did.

I discussed this with my H and we decided that I should call him and see why he had called. I thought possibly it may have something to do with finances as we still were occasionally getting credit stuff for him even after we moved.

I called him. He said that he had called me because he had a "feeling" that I wasn't okay and that that "feeling" persisted and he was concerned that I wasn't okay. I assured him that I was okay, thanked him for his concern... and didn't open the door up any further for conversation. He said he was glad I was okay and that was it. I haven't talked to him personally since then. To my best estimation that was maybe 4 years ago.

About 2 years ago a series of things happened that led me to call his sister. One we began to get a lot of mail for him here. Bill collectors again started calling us. Again I was notified that this was the address he was giving them. Through investigation we found that all three credit reporting agencies had his last three residencies as my H and I last and current home and his most recent as his parent's home.

The next thing was a series of phone calls from my FOO and a good friend of mine who had been in our wedding. My g/f called to say that he had shown up at the university where she worked (same university my dad had retired as a professor from two years prior.) She said she didn't recognize him... at first. He asked her a bunch of questions about my dad and at first she didn't know it was him and said Prof.JJ's Dad retired but you can leave a message for him in his old department and they will get it to him. It wasn't until he started asking her questions about me that all of a sudden it connected for her that it was XH. She said he had shaved his head, was pierced and tattooed.

She said she told him... I haven't spoken to JJ for about a year. He then asked her if my folks had moved to the retirement home they were building in another city that they had been in construction at the time XH and I were together. She told him she didn't know. He told her he had some very important things to discuss with my dad regarding my dad's curricular area... things that would revolutionize the study of that field. My friend said he was behaving oddly so she told she had to get back to work and to contact the department if he wanted to get a hold of my dad. Also a bit odd since my dad was listed in phone book in that city too.

He did go to department and leave a message for my dad that the university did fwd to him.

He then showed up at one of my stepsister's house (she lives 2 hours away from where he lives.) at 9pm on a Tuesday night in the pouring rain. My sister's H and kids were there too. My BIL stated that he didn't even recognize him at first either. He then started asking my BIL a bunch of questions about his job and said he was interested in doing that kind of work. They did not invite him in... said he looked very different (shaved head etc.) but spoke to him for about 20 minutes on the porch.

A couple of weeks later he showed up there again during the day. My sister was there alone with her kids… so she closed all the blinds and didn’t answer the door. She said she was scared.

At this point I was a bit worried because it seemed strange to me that he was trying now to get in contact with my FOO. Especially since they were a 2 hour drive away.

I called his sister. We had a long conversation about what had really been going on with him over the last few years of his life. He had basically been out of a lot of contact with his own FOO for the last few years. They didn't really know his second wife at all. She told me that she found out that he was addicted to Meth and had sort of spiraled out of control... lost all his rental properties... his finances were a mess, he couldn't work. Then she told me that about a year before that their family had stepped in… she had shown up at his house and he wouldn't let her in. When he finally let her in she said that there were small holes in the walls all over.

When she asked him what they were he said that his house was bugged by the government and that he kept having to remove the bugging devices from the walls. They got him into treatment for his meth addiction, sold his house and put the money in a trust for him, paid off all his bills, and when he got out of treatment, he moved home with his parents. He was prone to rage...(from the meth addiction perhaps) and his parents were afraid of him but didn't know what to do.

She stated that she wasn't really surprised that he had shown up at my FOO's because a couple of his friends had also contacted her with similar stories of him showing up. One former coworker and good friend of his from the past stated that he had shown up and stayed for 7 hours at his house. The coworker didn't know what to do because he seemed delusional.

His sister told me that he was admitted for had been picked up by the police for a minor offense but that the police recommended that he be evaluated for psychiatric disorders. He was admitted to some sort of psychological facility and was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. They believed they could treat him as an outpatient.

I asked her if the doctors believed his schizophrenia was a result of his meth use. I had heard that meth could cause a psychotic break. She asked me if I remembered that their paternal grandmother also had this diagnosis. I said that he had shared with me a story about her getting up a church service during a testimonial and sharing with the congregation that their whole family was infected with syphilis. XH was much younger when this happened and that he believed she was senile. She said the doctors thought the meth might have accelerated his illness but that they believed it was hereditary in nature.

She asked if I recalled anything in the time we were together that seemed odd or would suggest delusions. There were a couple of things... never thought too much of them at the time. One was that he kept a pocket voice activated tape recorder in the apron pocket of his checker's uniform… he worked as a checker at a grocery store prior to starting his own business. He believed that there was a conspiracy by his bosses not to pay their employees correctly according to union stuff... not giving breaks correctly, time clock stuff etc. He kept a briefcase where he documented these things and I believed at the time he was collecting information for the union.

The voice activated tape recorder he had explained to me was to record conversations of his bosses breaking union regulations. In retrospect I guess this could have been an early sign of his illness. At the time I thought he was just keeping diligent records for proof.

I asked her if he still possessed a gun. He had a handgun he kept in his bedside drawer. I never liked this but he said he needed it for protection in case of a home invasion. Was this a sign of paranoia? I don't know. I knew that there were other people in life that kept handguns in their homes. No one in my FOO ever had a gun, but I never thought too much about it this either. It wasn't like he took it out often or anything... I just knew it was there and that sometimes he put it in the glove box of the car if we traveled out of town.

Whenever we left to go out of town it would take him 15 minutes or so to make sure everything was secure and that the house was all locked up. Sometimes we get a few miles down the road and he would turn around and come back to check to make sure the door was locked or the iron wasn't plugged in. I just thought he was really cautious.

When his sister shared his diagnosis with me, I felt very saddened. Here was a 40 year old man living at home with his parents. A man who had at 21 bought his first house... and invested from there by buying rental properties. A man who had started his own successful business. The valedictorian of his high school graduating class. How could this be happening to him?

I asked his sister if he had been violent toward any of them and she said only verbal rages. His parents believed that his rages were linked to his meth use... and they believed that he was currently using again.

After his initial diagnosis, he was prescribed Zyprexa, in addition to the anti depressants he had been on before. He remained on the Zyprexa for less than a month, said the side effects were awful. His sister told me after that he refused his diagnosis and he refused to take the medication because he didn't need it because he was not schizophrenic. The doctors told his family that this isn't that uncommon for patients with mental illness to refuse their diagnosis. His parents decided it was too hard to live with him so they chose to get him an own apartment.

His sister told me that the best they could hope for since they couldn't force him into a mental health facility is that his erratic behavior would cause him to be arrested on a 5150 (section of the law that would allow for police to place him in mental health facility for observation and then possible long term mandated care.) This is what had led to his initial diagnosis… after his arrest. So there hope was that a paper trail might help them keep him in a facility.

I don't know where he is now or whether or not he has gotten further treatment. I don't know now if he is or is not using meth. His sister told me at the time I talked to her that his use had been chronic for about 3 years. This would have corresponded in part to at least some of the time he was with his second wife.

After I spoke with his sister, her suggestion was that we should call the police and start a paper trail. I asked her if she thought he was dangerous and she said no she didn't think so but given his diagnosis believed it was best to err on the side of caution.

Police took a report and told me to document all mail coming in, and any time he showed up at any of my FOO's house or at our house. He hasn't.

None of this justifies my choice to cheat on him. His meth addiction and mental illness occurred after we divorced.

Regarding my own addiction. I injured my back fairly seriously. I was prescribed pain medication and physical therapy after an MRI. I went to PT for about 2 years. I developed a tolerance and dependence on pain medication. I have owned this and have worked hard to achieve recovery. I see where I started out taking pain meds for legitimate reasons and where the side effect of them was that they also masked emotional pain as well. Yes, I own that I became addicted to prescription pain medication. I also own where and when I relapsed and where and when I have put accountability measures into place to obtain recovery.

I am not proud that I became addicted. It is a very shameful thing.

I have not been addicted to recreational drugs. I do not use recreational drugs at all ever period. Yes, I own that during my teenage years I did experiment with some. This was a conscious choice NOT to do them at all, that I made many years ago.

I do not drink alcohol at all ever period. Yes, I also own that drank when I was a teenager. I drank on special occasions in my 20's... weddings, family gatherings, etc. I have not drunk any alcohol by choice since I was in my late 20's.

I think this is in part how I sort of sloped into an addiction with prescription meds. I didn't understand at the time how that they could be just as dangerous and just as addictive as street drugs. I lulled myself into a false sense of security in the beginning because after all my doctor was prescribing this for me so it must be okay.

I own where I chose not to disclose tolerance and dependence with my doctor and how that choice led me down a path to addiction. I own that I owned and admitted this to my IC and where I failed to listen to her. Where in my stubborn thinking believed I could stop without support. I have made huge strides toward recovery and the decision to seek support. I own where my thinking was flawed, that because it was a prescription medication and not a recreational street drug that I could do it on my own. I own that I was wrong.

My doctor has ordered a new MRI and I am currently using a 10's unit (portable electrical stimulation device... like they use in physical therapy only smaller) to help control my back pain. I have permanently scarred my back (deep darkened pigmentation) from sleeping on a heating pad to obtain pain relief. And I own that through that choice the possibility of skin cancer.

I own that I had sex before I was married as a teenager and as an adult. I sinned there too.

I have sinned a lot in my life.

I own that I had an affair. The affair was not caused by something my first husband did or didn't do. Believing that it was... was what got me there in the first place. I chose to live in reality not fantasy anymore.

I know that many believe that the only way for me to repent from the sin of my adultery is to divorce my current H. I respect that this is your belief if you are someone who does believe it. It is not my belief from my own understanding of Christ and his forgiveness but I do respect others right to believe it.

Thank you to MEDC for posting the link to the website regarding Christian divorce and remarriage. I know that you shared that your belief is different so I appreciate you taking the time to post it.

When JJ first came here, she posted on the JFO forum then moved to GQII. Here's the link: Advised to move to GQII

Here's a post from MelodyLane to her in July of last year:



And this one from ML in response to WhoMe


BigKahuna, justpeachy, starfish, cymanca posted to her.

This was from Believer on that thread:



Noodle was the first to say:



And then she posted:



And BobPure posted:



And then fightingaloneagain posted:



And then Resilient quote FAA's next to last paragraph and then said:



And BigKahuna:



Then Jilly went back and deleted all her posts but two...:



And Resilient posted:



Then BobPure:



And then Jilly posted to Mortarman's Thread: God's View of Marriage and ReMarriage:



And MM replied and said he would set up a thread for him and Jilly...and he did (this one).

After Jilly's post, MEDC posts this (I think it was in reply to LowOrbit):



You can read all the posts to and from MM on this thread...and about the same time, another thread was made unmasking posters who had multiple names Will The True Sybil Please Stand Up ....on page 4, committedandloving posts:



Then ML posts:

after she quotes C&L

And Resilient:





MrsW:


Then JustJilly:



Resilient then posted asking JJ to point out where anyone "accused" JJ of anything.

Then JJ:



2BNormal answered:

MrsW:

JJ:

Resilient to KiwiJ:

MrsW:

Now, how did we get to here? JJ explained from the beginning that she was in a marriage which began as an A. Took her awhile to get how abhorrent that was...yet I see the same people now saying Move to Other Topics...who posted to JJ on GQII.

What changed so much in the first two months of her posting?

LA

LA


What changed for me was MM asking me off board to back off so he could talk with her...then getting caught up in his recovery drama and bowing out of his own thread.

Guess that could be considered breaking his contract?

So therefore my end wasn't applicable any longer either?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


In other news MM...

I have read and considered your arguament and I gotta tell ya...I LOVE it. I wish it was true...I HOPE you can find a way for it to be true because it appeals to my sense of justice.

However I have a few problems with it.

Firstly you are using a scripture that is *contextually* directly referencing both "neighbors" and the churches responsibility to cast out the openly immoral in a manner that doesn't seem to apply.

Generally speaking scripture is very carefull in addressing the person it is intending to talk to or direct. So then it is quite consistent in naming the intended recipient by saying specifically "neighbor" or "husband" or "wife". It is understood that the spousal relationship is more than and different from that of your neighbor.



Now I understand HOW you are connecting the dots here...I even agree that you COULD make that case but only IF you completely ignore contradictory scriptures that reaffirm that there is ONE legit cause for divorce and it is specifically named as adultery. Not even unequal yoking in the form of a spouse acting as an unbeliever.

Is there a difference between "letting the unbeliever go" and "MAKING the unbeliever go"?

Scripture says in the case of unequal yoking to abide with them if they will.

So I'm not seeing how you'd justify that as scriptural sanction for divorce unless the unbeliever abandons the marriage in a more complete and consistent manner than not taking out the trash or fullfilling their spousal responsibilities to the standards and preferences of the other spouse.

That seems really...well...convenient.

So much so that honestly...I'd LOVE to see it firmly backed up and a "way out" for people who have made a poor choice in marriage partners and now realise that they have.

Last issue I have time to jot down is in regard to naming someone an "unbeliever" but at the same time asserting that it doesn't affect their salvation status.

What would be the distinguishing characteristeic between an UNbeliever and a WAYWARD believer?

What changed so much in the first two months of her posting?

Other affair brides, and WS joined in siezing the opportunity for legitimization it afforded ( pink paige and cinnamon sugar for example).

And then when I announced I would leave because of the support for an affair marriage legitimization thread that was encouraging those in affair marriages , I received MANY ( click here) , many posts from BS amd FWS who shared my view that it was disheartening at the very least to have an affair marriage legitimised on page one of the affair-marriage haters anonymous board.

You will likely have a have a smart, pop-psych answer to this.

You will CERTAINLY disagree with me.

You do not share my view of compassion in my wishing to protect those vulnerable from needless hurt as you say their triggers are their responsibility. I believe that does not remove our responsibility to go through life hurting as few people as we can, uplifting as many as we are able.

But you asked, and now I have told you why I suggest that this thread be moved somewhere quieter. No rants from me about unforgiveness. No rants from me about second marriages. No rants from me to banish affair spouses. All that was made up against me. I just want the help to take place where the vulnerable will not be downhearted as a result.

Many posters here are not Christian and just don't G.A.S.about the bible view of their worst possible outcome. Others are Christian and fall in line with the highly credible school of thought that affair marriages are unrepented affairs not legitimate marriages, yet a small sect of "christians" impose their will undemocratically on all those others, claiming righteousness right here, in the public square of this community.


That is uncompassionate to many at the very least IMO.

How would JJs assistance be made less effective if it were done in a less public place ?

Hi JJ! Good to see you back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not sure, but has anyone suggested a simple title change or addendum?

Why not just have the thread starter add something along the lines of- "Warning! May be painful for newbie BS's!"

Movie and TV ratings assume that folks can be responsible for their choices with similar info...why not adult BS's?

I mean, that's the class of folks who some think need to be protected, correct? With this info, at least a newbie BS can CHOOSE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, and others who are offended can just ignore.

Have seen other threads w/ similar disclaimers.....graphic sex threads, etc.

If we are all about personal responsibility.....and I am.....why not warn them and allow them to choose FOR THEMSELVES wether or not they want to enter this thread?

Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but here it is. If redundant, my apologies.

LA, nothing has changed for me, except that I can see more clearly that this is not the place for her given the strong reaction. I think another thing that was really driven home to me was the recognition that my XH's OW could come here and receive help for her affair marriage. That realization was a real eye opener for me. Many others saw this initially, which is why it is so galling to watch.

I am really astonished that you cannot see that yourself, and I wonder if that stems from that sense of entitlement/moral neutrality that seems to be prevalent in some WS's. It really is amazing that this thread continues despite the fact that that JustJilly has been told how painful it is. That bespeaks a level of callousness and cruelty that one only comes to expect from a wayward mind.

It would be no trouble whatsoever for her to take this to a free EZboard and set up shop there. She HAS many other options, but chooses, rather to come here where she KNOWS it will cause dissension. [we have even had BS' who left over this and this was their lifeline] That tells me ALOT about her. And YOU, LA.

edited to add: I don't get the point of all the quotes you posted. If the point was to demonstrate that "something changed," they didn't make that case for you. So I am completely mystified about why you went to all that trouble for no apparent reason.

For the record, much like PTSD, schizophrenia CAN be triggered by life TRAUMA-like the kind that comes from having your spouse be unfaithful...

I find it interesting that Jilly's post steers clear of mentioning the other family destroyed in all of this...You know, the original family of her current husband...Let us not forget that her affair DID wreck the life of another BS and a child if memory serves...

Mrs. W

Interesting way in which you show your concern for brother "christians" too, Bob. Perhaps another example of the "Pot" calling the "Kettle" black? Maybe another example of how the early Jewish Christians felt about what the Gentile Christians had to do to be "truly Christians?"

So in the interest of clarity, what do you, Bob Pure, believe that a person must do to be forgiven of all their sins and declared righteous by God?

At what point does any marriage NOT formed "in Christ" become one that IS "in Christ?"

At what point is Christ's blood insufficient to "cleanse us from all unrighteousness?"

Since you are intent on making this an issue of "Christian" doctine, then let's talk doctrine and not "personal preference," okay?

Who here believes that JustJilly has NO RIGHT to be here seeking help?

That's the bottom line...if this discussion is to be democratic, then take a vote.

NOW - it's not a democracy here. We all participate under the rules of the system, which are established by the Owners of the system and NOT up to "popular vote."

Abide by the TOS and you are welcome to post.

Don't abide by the TOS and they will remove you from the system.

Administration of the Rules is given to the Moderators and Administrators, NOT to the members at large. That is intended to limit or eliminate "Mob Rule" or "Rule by Majority Opinion."

Even the United States of America is not a true democracy, it's a representative republic that incorporates democratic principles, among which include other core "beliefs," such as "...endowed by their Creator...with certain inalienable rights." Now I understand that not everyone posting is an American, but I think you, and they, understand the relevance.



Shall we, for example, have a vote to eliminate Free Speech from the Constitution of the United States? That IS what is being done with attempts to remove all mention of God or Christ from any "public" areana. See any similarities here? They have succeeded in the schools and now they are turning their focus to ALL mention of God (or at least the "Christian" God) anywhere in the Country.

The real bottom line here is that no one is denying Jilly the right to BE helped...EVEN HERE ON MARRIAGE BUILDERS~~~> HERE!!! ...What has been asked and ignored, is why does that help have to be HERE on GQII???

If the desire to help her and her desire to be helped is altruistic in nature, then WHY does it matter to her or them WHERE that help takes place?

Mrs. W

P.S. NOW there are MANY things that I might have the right to do, but common sense dictates that I use discretion when exercising those rights...So yes, sure, Jilly has the "right" to seek help here, but I also have the right to protest...MB is NOT a democracy though...