NOW, I appreciate that you can see this. I left Alanon for this very reason years ago. I am a recovering alcoholic that came from an alcoholic family. My presence caused great resentment for some members in alanon and I could understand WHY.

I did not feel it was fair to inflict my presence onto their lifeline when I could just as easily get the help I needed in ACOA. I went there and there were no resentments against me so I recieved the help I needed and the alanon ladies lived in peace. And they were nice and appreciative about it!

I could have very well stayed there like a stubborn [censored] just to prove I could, but for WHAT PURPOSE?? I needed help and I sure wasn't going to get it there under those circumstances. That is why I question justjilly's true agenda here. It is NOT to get help, that much is clear.

But you know what else? SHE would win if she moved to a private forum. She is not winning anything this way if it is really "help" that she seeks. Maybe she is winning something else, but it is sure not help.

Off topic question...what is ACOA?

Adult children of alcoholics?

Thanks for sharing that!

yep!

ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
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Bob:

Thank you. I don't have the heart to say again what was lost except:

1. I was devastated over what LA said. I decided at the time to draw her out instead of blasting her. I was kindler and gentler back then. I ain't as much any more.

I was offended then, and I am offended now by that trash.

2. I deal with that garbage POV now by saying:

Affairs, the gift that keeps on giving. Then I go on to detail some issue that crops up, sometimes years later. So I use sarcasm. Only way I can deal with the garbage LA laid on me.

* wry smile * I getcha. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

3. I still am optimistic. The glass is half full and all that. My wife and I are a better but not perfect team than we have ever been. I love my wife, I love my life and I love my kids, even the 12 year old nutty as a fruit cake entitled oldest boy.

Thats a mess of blessings there. Its not settling to appreciate that while hoping / working for more. Enjoy the journey where you may, not just the destination.

4. Hole still there. Not as large. I get sad sometimes and my wife picks up on it IMMEDIATELY - then does whatever she can to brighten my day. She owns her own stuff.

Another great blessing. I have high hopes for you two

Life goes on. And again, thanks Bob. I had been trying to locate that thread of late to review it and couldn't find it, so your post was timely. How do you keep up with or find old posts like that? I can't get past 250 posts.

Larry

Its embarassing ; I just have a really really good memory I recall some phrases that may be unique to a given thread and do a search by username. I used " +wonderful +gift" here.

All blessings mate. Really

Just Jilly....
Obviously none of us here can make you take this issue off board...it is not in our power to do so... so I will just ask you... one Christian to another... to recognize the potential harm that you are or may cause another brother/sister and please take this matter elsewhere(I am sure you have not missed the less experienced posters that resposded to the other thread that had been started). Since MM and FH and now LA have become your defenders & at times champions, you obviously have people that are willing to counsel you. I would only ask that you find somewhere else to do so.

With that, I will wish you luck and hope that you find peace in life.

MEDC

Well, not really. I mostly backed off because FH was doing such a great job of a discussion with JJ...so I backed away to let them walk thru what they were talking about. I normally dont post unless I have something to say. And if someone has already said what I wanted to say, then there is no reason for me to post.


I understand what you are saying. But neighbor in this context is used as a fellow Christian. Which means, if I am a Christian and so is my wife, then the way of dealing with issues applies.

I forgot to go thru this. You see, there are Scriptures that say there is no reason for divorce. Then, there are aothers that say that immorality is just cause.

Then, there are others that outline that God says that if your spouse is still alive, they are still your spouse. But then there are others that state that if the unbeliever leaves or if a BS divorces a WS, that they are no longer their spouse.

So, are these all opposites? Are they in conflict? Is God saying one thing in one place, but another in another?

Of course...if you are "making" the unbeliever go, then you are in violation of Scripture and are in rebellion to God. which would make YOU a violator and in jeopardy of being declared an unbeliever. Those that are following Christ do not do this!

Correct. Which is why my battle went on for as long as it did. My wife was delared an unbeliever so that she could be won back by God (which is what Scripture says). She has gone thru He!! on earth and is still paying a heavy price for her rebellion. But she is now home, we are in love and she has bended her knee to Christ.

But THAT would be i violation to God!

One is saved and the other isnt? Not sure what else you want me to say on this.

One distinguishing charateristic is that ALL wayward believers have consequences for their continued rebellion. They NEVER get away with it! If they get away with it, they are not a believer! Scripture says God will not be mocked. Hebrews 10 is VERY clear on what happens to a believer that goes into rebellion. An unbeliever may walk the planet with no outward or even inward consequences. It will look like they got away with it.

A believer will not have that...ever! An unbeliever is not in the family. So, they will get their "spanking" later...when they stand before Jesus and He says "I never knew you."

The believer will be spanked, punished, etc in the here and now...precisely because we do belong to Him, He is our Father, and because He loves us, He WILL discipline us.

If you are rebelling and finding NO consequences...then you had best check and see if you are actually saved. You may find that you even have that wrong!

Mrs. W. - One more time let me reiterate that I am, and have been, more than willing to discuss things with JJ on some other thread, some other site, anywhere where she can receive some help for questions she has. That has never been the "issue," at least for me.

What is the "issue" is that some folks on MB seem to think that they have the right, even the duty, to decide who and who cannot post on MB, or at least on the Infidelity Forums. They use as their justification "to be protecting others from potential pain or rationalization on the part of some reader for some bad behavior."

That justification can easily extend to anything they decide they want to apply their "test" to. At the very least, NO person should be allowed to post on MB if they were a WS who divorced and later entered into an "adulterous marriage" if their "test" is evenly applied, because ALL such marriages, whether to an affair partner or to someone else, ARE according to biblical standards (that they are using), committing adultery when they marry.

They have no compunctions about hurting JJ or causing her pain, in part because some of then think she is "not worthy" of any help simply because she happens to be one former WS who did leave her husband and married her partner in her affair. It has even been stated that she "got what she deserved." They, or at least some of them, consider her marriage to be "not legitmate" and "not recognized" by God as their principle justification for "going after" Jilly in specific. Her acceptance of Christ plays no part in anything in their minds. That's fine, that is their opinion. They can even state their opinion and refuse to post to her (as MEDC has done with another person recently). But they are not "satisfied" with that. They will not be satisfied until she posts nowhere on the Infidelity Forum.

Again, they use the justification that since they don't like it they will impose their will on another valid member of MB, and they couch that vendetta on the basis of "protecting" others from what others may, or may not, feel if they happen to read JJ's thread and learn that she is a former WS.

But that's not enough, either. Now we have Bob Pure attacking other believers for their faith, in some attempt to impune and demean their integrity and render anything they might say as "irrelevant." This from the guy who was ready to do much physical harm to the OM in his life with a sledgehammer. I understand the DESIRE for revenge, but is that something someone might read and "use" for justification for their doing something? Do we ban people for "hypothetical maybe's?"

He brings up the "rapist scenario" again, taking it totally out of context again from the discussion where that occurred. The obvious reason is that he wants to discredit anything that I might say about anything. He goes further in attacking doctrinal beliefs while steadfastly refusing to talk about them.

I find his attitude in attacking fellow believers to be highly offensive, but you won't see me asking for him to be banished or even suggesting that he can't be helpful to some other members on MB.

Bob has lost sight, in my humble opinion, of what forgiveness of sin means to a believer when God grants His forgiveness and seems to want to ban, or render irrelevant, fundamental beliefs of Christianity and of believers who believe in the those fundamental beliefs. Personally, I don't care if he doesn't accept them, until he begins to USE Christian beliefs to attack and abuse others in order to get "his way."

I've been working on a series on Repentance and this issue of "get JJ off of the forums and into some dark corner." But I am having serious doubts about posting it since it would be "irrelevant" in Bob's judgment. He won't even answer very simple biblically based questions, preferring to resort to ad homimem attacks.

I personally don't think there is ever going to be a "meeting of the minds" wherein JJ could have even just ONE thread that she posts on. They will not be satisfied until they impose their will on her, and on anyone "foolish enough" to post to a "sinner," even though that sinner has been forgiven the same as they have.

Whatever happened to the "other option" that everyone has. They do not have to post to anyone that they don't want to help or that they don't see where they can offer any positive help. They can, and I am sure they already have, sometimes leave the "helping" to some other members.

If they feel so strongly that JJ should not have the right to post here, then rather than launching into all the "indignant" personal attacks, they can take their arguments to the Moderators for a "ruling." Have they done so? I don't know, but I suspect not since the Moderators have been silent on the "issue" up to now.

How many "newbies" are likely to read any thread of enormous post length? Again I don't know, but probably a very small percentage. How many "newbies" spend their time essentially on their own threads, seeking help for their own situation? Again I don't know the actual statistics, but I'd venture that it's a pretty high percentage.

No, this issue is NOT about protecting others. This issue is about imposing their will on someone else that they don't like. Jilly has sincere questions about her new faith in God. THAT is primarily what we've been trying to discuss. We aren't even talking about infidelity, let alone attempting to "justify" infidelity. There is NO justification for infidelity.

Bottom line for many of the ones seeking to drive JJ off the system is that they do not believe themselves in the promises that they make when someone is forgiven. Or so it seems. Perhaps that is because they don't think they HAVE forgiven Jilly and therefore don't need to abide by "forgiveness promises." If they have not forgiven her, then the question is why have they not forgiven a fellow believer who HAS said that she repented of her sins, as God has commanded all believers to do when a fellow believer admits their repentance?

The accusation is that I and Mortarman and anyone else who is willing to try to help JJ HERE on MB, are "insensitive" and "callous" to the feelings of others. That's an interesting opinion, but that's all it is, their opinion. Even IF it were true, and it is not, they still don't have the right to demand that someone be booted off the system. Our "job" as caring individuals is to help where we can and not try to force "our views" down someone else's throat. Our "job" should be, "if we don't have anything nice or helpful to say to an individual, then don't say it."

The minute we start "judging" what one thread discussion may be "interpreted" or "misinterpreted" by anyone else on another thread may be, and then use that as a criteria to call for the "banishment" of said person, is the minute we have elevated mind reading to a fact and FEAR as THE justification for any behavior in which we might want to engage.

I would challenge anyone to show where I have ever, in 5 years of posting, told someone that having an affair was "okay," where divorcing is the "best solution" to infidelity, or where forgiveness of sin CANNOT be found in Jesus Christ. ANYONE that might read something on this thread and then try to use that as a "justification" for continuing in THEIR sin would find me opposing their rationalization, and opposing it forcefully with Scripture.

If they are NOT a believer, they won't care about "biblical things" anyway.

But let's take just one example of a thing that is frequently said that is frequently found to "hurtful" and "offensive" to a BS. People are often told that the WS "has already left the marriage" when they chose adultery. The marriage is already over. But if you "stuff your anger emotions," YOU (not God) can "win her back." Others have been told that their marriage is "hopeless" and they should move immediately to divorce. What is being offered are OPINIONS, regardless of whether or not they might be felt as hurtful by the BS.

What is happening now is that "feelings" are being elevated to the level of "allowability" for a member to post.

I'll give another example, because it's one that I have said several times, that I am SURE many MAY have been offended by. I have stated that as a believer, I find it hard to understand how someone can recover a loving marriage of equals without Christ being in the marriage and without the ability to "forgive as God has forgiven my own sins." I KNOW that people have been offended by the mere mention of "surrendering their lives to Christ," because I have more than once been told to "please stay off the thread." So maybe the next thing to ban is anyone who wants to talk about the need to surrender their lives to Christ and to walk in obedience to all of His commands?

"Staying off a thread" is something that we all should consider from time to time, as Pep said to me back in January on another thread. I took her advice, regardless of the hurtful attacks and "reinventing" of meaning of "Christian doctrines" that were called to be discussed. Perhaps, others might consider doing the same, but I doubt it. Two threads they have now hijacked to force their opinions on others, so I don't see restraint being all that likely.

Mrs. W - This is highly offensive if intended to be a judgment of those who are willing to help JJ as a forgiven sinner.

If it's not that, I would also stand up against it, just for your information.

For the record, I also stand up against adultery as "the answer" to perceived marital problems and am also willing to work with WS's to end their affairs and recovering WS's regardless of how I may or may not be triggered by their mere presence on MB.

Now that I have gotten out there the info concerning what Scripture says about marriage, divorce, etc...I had said on Friday that I had made a decision concerning this thread (since I started it).

Effective Monday, when I will talk to Justuss, I will close this thread and will split it into two different threads.

The first thread will be the continuation of the discussion of JJ's situation. This will be moved to a location that I will put here in the final post on this thread.

The second will be a general discussion concerning marriage, divorce, etc in regards to Scripture. As we have two different issues running on one thread, it will be good to break the two apart into one for JJ and one for the overall issue.

As I said before, I am not convinced that having this discussion here affects anyone else any more deeply than the other discussions we have here. But, this discussion has devolved into a whole bunch of people that are no longer listening...who have barricaded themselves into corners and refuse to talk in a way that will allow everyone to get their point across.

So, this thread will be locked once I have the two new ones up. I will post the two links as the last post on this thread.

This is a manipulation of her post FH... she stated quite clearly that she was not speaking of the religious perspective...so her status as a forgiven sinner is not what she was referring to.

In fact you are taking a Pro Affair Marriage Stance.... this is an affair marriage ( a marriage that started as the result of an affair) being discussed and you are arguing for its legititimacy... there is no doubt about that.

MEDC, I tire of this. Which is why I am splitting this thread.

My marriage began with fornication. We had sex before we were married. Fornication is an immoral act, just as adultery.

Is my marriage a Fornication Marriage? Is because we were immoral with each other make our marriage not a real marriage Scripturally? What does it all mean for my marriage? And using the same argument, how is mine different than what you term an "affair marriage."

You say "affair Marriage." And while I do believe that there are marriages not recognized by God (such as those that divorce for irreconcialable differences and then remarry. Or where the WS divorces and leaves for whatever reason (but not legitimately). In those cases, God does not recognize what they have done.

But, I really dont want to get back into this here.

MM - You do know Pep already set up a thread in a quiet place don't you? Jilly has in fact already posted to it.

here...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3214855

Then perhaps you shouldn't have MM.

MM.. you didn't address my hypothetical a while back regarding how YOU might feel to find your wife here getting counsel on her M to her affair partner after finding out your child is indeed his.... see, I just don't see you being so understanding if it were to happen in your own backyard. JMO... but I just don't see it.... although I could be wrong.

It is actually conceivable that I may even try and help her myself over there.

MEDC,

I have emailed both a forum moderator and Dr.Harley himself and asked for them to render a decision or at least some advice for me as to what I should do regarding my posting here.

I have clearly stated to both that if they believe that my posting here is destructive or harmful to others that I will go to the quiet corner (which feels like being shunned and banished for my sins and being told go and sit in the corner where YOUR KIND belongs.) or stop posting here altogether if that is their choice for me.

I want their insight into this because I think the issue is a more global one than just me posting here to this thread. I think the issue goes to certain members deciding that they have the power to dictate who and where any member should post based on their feelings about that poster.

I will happily go to quiet corner on the advise of Dr.Harley or the moderator of this forum. I will go because they do have the right to tell me or anyone where and if they are permitted to post and if so where. That is their job as administrator/owner or moderator of this site.

If members are given carte blance to start dictating where posters should post then what we have here is a situation where certain posters give themselves the authority over others and with that power the authority to run this board the way they see fit.

I realize that no one is saying that I CAN'T post here... what they are saying is that I shouldn't. My question I guess is at what point does it become the members right to decide who shouldn't post. I agree that they are well within their rights to share their POV about it. I feel like they want to whack me into submission with their POV. It has become an issue of until I go then I will get whacked over and over. And then when I don't go whack harder and harder until they beat me into submission.

Contrary to what has been said about me I am not bullet proof.

This is why I made the choice to contact those who are in authority here to help advise me what to do.

I hope that others will see that from my deepest respect for them that I have chosen to ask Dr. Harley. I have great respect for the founder of this site and I will do as he asks me to do.

I will let you know when I hear back from them.

Even if the owner/moderators of this board tell me I can post here... doesn't mean I won't choose to go to quiet corner out of respect. I have been giving this a lot of careful thought.

If I go now before I hear from them... my concern is that this will happen again to someone else. That others will think oh yeah remember when we didn't like JJ posting here... well let's just ban together again and try to force the next poster we feel is vile to us to their specified corner.
I thank you for making a respectful request.

any chance of you posting the email that you sent here on this thread?

and as far as giving this a lot of careful thought...Jilly... how long does it take you to decide to not act in a way that harms others?

So, I guess the reply to my request is "no" for now.

WOW! I come back to GQ after a bit of an absence and what's the 1st thing I see? The JJ drama continues, just like when I was here before. Same old arguments flying around. Same old, same old! The forgiving Christians vs the judgemental ones I guess. I had an interesting thought the other day about Ms that began as an A. If the couple has children, and one day one of the children becomes a BS or a WS, what would the counsel from the parents be? Maybe to the BS child, "Honey, these things happen. Your WS must follow their heart in order to be happy. That's what we did. Best to let him/her go and move on." To the WS child, "Go for it honey! Follow your heart! Look at us. That's what we did. We didn't let those M vows stop us from falling in love again."

MM wrote:

"My marriage began with fornication. We had sex before we were married. Fornication is an immoral act, just as adultery.

Is my marriage a Fornication Marriage? Is because we were immoral with each other make our marriage not a real marriage Scripturally? What does it all mean for my marriage? And using the same argument, how is mine different than what you term an "affair marriage."

I think the difference, even for those who think premarital sex is a sin, is this. Whether a person on MB had sex pre-M or not, it doesn't hurt anybody on this MB sight. The pre-M sex is between the people who ended up getting Med. Very different than witnessing a WS/OW who Med the WS posting on a forum that is dealing with breaking up these As and helping people deal with the gut-wrenching pain of it all every day. However, what I am writing is more of the same old, same old crap that has already been written on this subject.