please help me somebody..what should i do?? i am in soo much pain now..

recap: H is in a heavy flirtation/EA relationship with a single mom of one of my sons friends..he adamantly denies, thinks i am just "jealous" and unreasonable that it bothers me. had suspicions about 2 weeks prior to his announcement of not wanting marriage, not being in love...not knowing what he wants. he is a very miserable person now, the majority of the time. i have been trying hard to not LB, do plan a, but when he "doesnt WANT to try", he just is walled off and pushes me away. i have been able to maintain SF (maybe even more than before, which is what i guess is his #1 EN).

so yesterday was a sports day..a day he takes my son (he has refused to allow me to do this, on several attempts i have made) and is with her. what i have noticed is them coming home later and later...last night, they were 35 min late and the excuse for why was pretty weak..my son anyway told me that he and the other child were playing on the sidewalk while daddy and OW talked. he told me earlier this week that he and his friend get into OW's car alot after class is over and daddy and OW talk..i know it is never more than like 20 min, but still....

earlier when this started i asked for me to go with my son..no. i asked for them to not speak on the phone anymore (busted them with cell phone calls..but burned that bridge since now he deletes everything)...and i have even spoken to her to voice my concerns..appears nobody cares what i think.

last night, i was soo hurt. when i broached "what took you so long"--they started to tell me the story, i said, yeah..but...all this time?? h got totally angry..and it hasnt gotten alot better. i went off to my workout class, and sat in the car after and sobbed. came home, he knew i was upset, and said nothing. i sobbed in the shower and went on to bed. couldnt even THINK about plan a then. OR this am.

i am just so hurt. he says he doesnt think he wants to be married, not "in love", but also doesnt want to try to work on things. this week, after 3 MC sessions, he said he is through with that. he resists any relationship talks, and so we sit. me in total ******, with him supposedly "deciding" what he wants.

no, i have not exposed...do not have evidence of this EA (no thoughts about PA, but never know)--i await the PI's findings (he will call me today about yesterdays events i know). but plan a, when the person you are with clearly does not care what your feelings are..i just dont know how much longer i can do this. other bad thing..we go on vacation next week too

my plan earlier this week was to plan a all month while the PI gathered evidence for me to expose, and hope for NC. i really dont see the harley plan being one i can stick to at this point. i am soo sad, he doesnt want to try, but is miserable, but leaving us all in limbo while he goes out there and flirts/EAs, whatever.

i just dont know what to do, where to begin..hard to even talk to him,but i know i have to plan it carefully and rehearse. i think vacation is the time for him to figure out what he needs, and i dunno...i think he needs to leave. tho i know from here that that will likely be the death of our marriage. almost feel like doing a 180 now.

please PLEASE help me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I (we) understand your pain. Been there.

Please see a doc about anti-depression meds. Seeking this help is a sign of strength, not weakness.

What do you mean he has refused to allow you to do this?

You mean he objects and you back down?

You have to go to these events. Period. This is where the affair is blossoming.

Relate your suspicions then. Today. Confide in anyone who may be influential in his life. Don't delay. You may find support. Hold off describing you've hired a PI - but then when the PI returns evidence, you do exposure again with the evidence, depending on what it is.

JMHO

WAT

wat-

thank you for your reply.

first, i have to admit, maybe i have been too soft on this issue of attending. i guess i am going to have to totally INSIST he not take him anymore, tho i know it brings him pleasure (her? vs ?his own interest in the sport..he does it too). it is more complicated since it is late in the day and with 2 other small kids (not easy or fun to bring them home on the long commute)--the other person HAS to do that, so the other person gets the "pain" so to speak--so, not only is it the "more fun" option to go with my oldest son, it is painful to do the alternate..all in all, it has SEEMED like a huge LB to force this issue. i realize it has to stop, but what if he outright refuses?

i HAVE related my suspicions..alot up front, but less recently since it was rehashing and a HUGE LB. he BRISTLES now and is defensive as heck...all bad signs i know, and worsens everything for me. he KNOWS i am suspicious and does the whole rolling eyes/you are crazy/why are you so jealous routine...at minimum, he just doesnt care about my feelings and it is fun for him ("recreation' as steve harley told me is HIS hunch..i wish he was right, but i fear its more)..and at most its a EA/PA.

i have told a mutual friend and his sister, but he doesnt know they know. also, i have asked before, can you EXPOSE when you arent sure?? cant that be damaging? not sure steve harley gave me that impression at all.

thanks for your help...i am listening..but just feel pretty defeated, and hopeless.

I meant relate your suspicions to OTHERS, not him. Completely stop bringing it up with him until you have evidence.

OK, you can't make them do the right thing. But when you have evidence you update them. Anyone else?

That's why I suggested you relate your suspicions. Others may also have suspicions and may actually know more than you.

You gotta find a way to go to the events. Find a way. Or send a spy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Is the PI going?

WAT

sososad, I realize from your above post it seems impossible for you to attend WITH your H but to me it is far less inconvenient than a full blown PA or a D for your family, right? Go WITH him. BE a HAPPY family in front of this OW. Have you done the EN questionaire?

I am so sorry you are in this place.

Find the strength to stand your ground. Make your presence known. Go to the games no matter what.

Expose this to her H. Exposure is your most valuable tool. It is not pleasant... but it needs to be done.

Set up an appointment with a M friendly counsleor so that he can hear from an objective third party how inappropriate his actions have been.

You need to be tough right now... if you are not, pretend, nobody can tell the differnce. The moment you begin taking steps to put an end to this [email]cr@p[/email] is the moment you begin to recover some of "you."

I wish you all the best.

an update...

so, the pi called me..

he has about 15 minutes of video from after the class...seems the kids got in and out of our cars (ours and hers)..my H was sitting in our car, while she was hanging in our window talking on and on to him.

the pi asked his associate who was there, if that guy was your husband, how would what you saw have made you feel?? guy said, "man, i would have been pissed!"

so there it is..hard evidence #1. i await what i am really wanting..which is cell records..know it seem silly, but the ONE THING they BOTH agreed to was no calling..so if that has continued to take place, that is outright deception. i know it may seem like i am trying to find black and white..but i am. seems that is all he understands.

but, from previous posts/replies, i know you have said i dont have to be able to prove anything to him, or be able to get him to admit anything. i understand this...but i am sick and tired of being made to feel like *I* am the crazy one..like *I* am being unreasonable, or jealous.

so, now..what would i do? i feel like i should wait to see if he can get more evidence-- cell records, tape..whatever. but ultimately, he will..of some kind. and then what??

sit and plan a while he disrespects me? continue to sit on the shower floor sobbing in silence since he doesnt give a cr&(#p about me? this is painful guys..i know you know..but i dont know if i am as tough as all of you to do it. continue to love on and hug and be sweet and EN the heck out of a wall who is counting the minutes til the next encounter...

worst is i have to go on vacation ALL WEEK with him next week..sit in silence and act wonderful. when i come back, i know we will get more evidence, and i hate to tell ya, but i think i have to ask him to leave. i cannot raise my kids and function when i am dying so quickly.

i am starting to work on "the speech" to say "i know what is going on", and asking him to leave, all at once. exposure would be simultaneous, in my mind.

am i totally off base. sorry if this rambles..hard to type and cry. i have been holding it back for so long..like floodgates.

Well the video doesn't sound very damning. Unfortunately.

And if you think about it, even if she's a dog in heat, they aren't likely going to do anything in the presence of the kids. I was hoping the PI would have a pic of them sneaking a kiss or being affectionate.

Did your H say he wasn't interacting with her at all?

What is their opportunity to interact away from the kids events?

This may sound trite, but so then don't feel that way.

THE BIGGEST trap that the ALMOST ALL BSs initially fall into in the trap of self doubt.

You are not crazy and he is not right.

Believe it.

Who's got more credibility - a total stranger like me, or an alien abductee? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Don't get yourself in over your head. You need to take care of yourself first. If you truly cannot handle the stress of this (and trust me we have all been there)then you need to make some changes immediately. I would still suggest exposing away right now. You have enough information to make a case for an inappropriate relationship. If the cell phone records prove your case... or other evidence comes up, so be it... but put a stop to this now. You do not need to throw him out without first giving him the chance to cease this behavior, get into counseling and agree to transparency.
I am so sorry you in such pain. I have been there so I can understand your plight. Find a way to make sure you come out of this as whole as possible. Implement changes that will help you and your M.
And for goodness sake... CALL THE HARLEY'S TODAY!!

MEDC -

Throw him out?

Can you please elaborate on why, when, and how she would do this - into addition to how you make someone cease any behavior, get into something, and agree to anything?

WAT

Post deleted by Zoomba

first, i have talked to steve harley several times..it is interesting, but as i said above, he says his "hunch" is that this is relationship is all "purely recreational" for him..that he just enjoys the flirting, but that he hasnt crossed any lines (in his mind, at least) and is unaware that this might be inappropriate for a married guy...told me to get the shirley glass book,which is due to arrive today, but good luck getting mr "i dont want to work on things", mr unmotivated to change things to read it.

WAT, you are right..this is what i have again and again noted in my posts..this is an EA in my mind..at most..he SAYS it is only "innocent flirting", but as in the other post, isnt this flirting EXCEPTIONALLY dangerous, esp when you are a) married b) not doing great in your marriage c) in midlife crisis to boot?? so, the evidence isnt physical, doesnt prove adulterty in the eyes of the law --but what do you NEED to have for an EA?? previously i busted them on calls..but that bust meant all is deleted now, so only the PI can possibly find that out. but in an EA, it is talking, flirting..nothing "damning" in some peoples eyes, since (see my previous posts) my questions about exposure..wont some people (her parents, our friends, his sibs) maybe not think there is anything too wrong with it?? your comments just hit that note with me..tho you all have said expose expose...but if YOU think that, what will OTHERS think? if OTHERS dont think it is a big deal, i will look like a fool for seeking them out to announce it.

WAT, to answer your other questions..no, H never said they were not interacting..they speak (along with all the other moms/dads) at the sports event. BUT, when i busted him on the calls, he said, i understand "as innocent as it is" how inappropriate it may be, so i wont talk to her anymore...this i also have her agreeance to, in an email. so that SUPPOSEDLY was COMPLETELY black and white..and if they are still calling, a direct deceit, IMO. and no, they SHOULD have no other times to interact, other than those 3 times a week.

MEDC: thanks for the sympathy/empathy..i am in a bad way, and i appreciate your consoling me. i am just so hurt that somebody i love could POSSIBLY be "ok" with hurting me so clearly. you are right..this IS an inappropriate relationship, and even tho he has made me feel like i am crazy/jealous etc, speaking to people i trust and KNOW are sane, they feel like i have even tried very hard to justify and be less concerned much earlier than they would have. they also cannot believe i am tolerating what i am.

and i cannot WAIT until MY world is no longer upside down as yours is not..that is why i worry i will not be able to plan a much longer, but move to plan b for me.

WAT... i am not on this board to debate every detail with you.. if the person I am speaking with has a question about what I am saying, I will address her. I was responding to her asking him to leave and used a figure of speach. But again, if you and I are having a discussion and you need something cleared up... I will be happy to do so... otherwise, I think the poster that I am responding to can ask their own questions.

sss - Don't get me wrong. I wasn't saying that what they are doing is not damning - just that the evidence you got from the PI is not damning.

I think you are absolutely right that this is an EA and is wrong, wrong, wrong.

These are in many ways the worst cases for the reasons you cite. EAs are not adultery to the majority of the public and to the US legal system. We have to face that unfortunate fact. WE KNOW here that EAs are extremely harmful - sometimes more harmful than PAs.

The unfortunate, false distinction is due, IMHO, to the fact that a PA can be "seen." You can't get inside somebody's head to see the works of an EA.

I suggest you stop trying to prove that this is an EA to your H, all the while hoping that the PI comes up with something more damning. A picture of them being affectionate WOULD be damning.

Please describe your Plan B intentions.

WAT

Is the OW married?

I think one of your few options is to arrange to be at the sporting event with your husband and child.

If taking the younger ones is dificult, then hire a high school girl to watch them while the three of you go.

When my son was young, I would take the little one and I would push the stroller while he practiced. That would still keep you in view.

How are you at flirting?

Are you calling him during the day flirting?

Are you sending him emails that flirt? One of the free sites has a whole lot of sexy or romantic cards to send.

Do you flirt with him when he is home?

I know it is hard, but if she is meeting that need, you better do your best to meet it bettet.

A vacation might be a really great week unless she is going too.

You have him all to your self.

Hang in there and go with him to every sporting event where she is.

WAT and MEDC:

i have to say that altho i know it is not the MB mantra, is is INCREDIBLY difficult for me right now to NOT want to ask him to leave. i know by law (via atty) that i cannot "throw him out" (ie court order) w/o DIRECT EVIDENCE OF ADULTERY (ie hard evidence of the sex act--nearly never gotten)--but i do think i could effect him leaving ..i think.

what i am worried about is my ability to maintain plan a, while an active (tho without WAT's damning evidence) EA is going on..maybe not even an EA..what do i know--getting lost in the semantics..whatever, its an INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIP, right? but living with him doing that, me knowing it, and trying to plan a my butt off vs a wall...it is very emotionally difficult for me. i know..get a tough skin..but at what cost?

i have been doing this for almost 2 months..at first yeah, thinkin maybe *I* have the problem..reading too much into friends, whatever..too jealous, too suspicious. as the evidence mounts, more people approach me with what they see, now one video (who knows what else is to come...)..i know i am not crazy, but it is painful as heck.

i was hoping for a "talk down"-do i need to sit back and continue to plan a?? or when is enough enough?

the other thing i dont think i asked clearly is, can you end plan a, expose, and go to plan b all at once, or is that generally a no-no?

k, thinking more rationally now..i am guessing you would say..deep breath, plan a..get evidence, expose hard..if no response (doubt there would be, given his denial it is in fact going on..) which would def lead to a quick plan b.

howz that? am i getting more sane??

Very good for you since you'd lose. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

But I am here to help others which includes exploring contrary or potentially faulty recommendations to folks seeking help. On the other hand, I might be wrong and I might learn something in the process.

It is very normal and reasonable etiquette here to seek explanations for others' recommendations. That's part of the beauty of a public forum and open exchange - so that a person seeking help can weigh the options and differing views.

So, are you going to be a constructive contributor? If not, let me know and I'll give you a hard time every chance I get. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

you can do all those things at the same time.

However, you expose in Plan A.

I have a strong hunch that other moms know and are talking about it behind your back.

That is why I think you need to go to the events. Stake your claim, so to speak.

(whining..allow me for a sec)--i KNOW i need to go..i KNOW it..but it is SO HARD logistically.

WHINING..why cant HE just *NOT* go????? ugh...(lol--not really, but you know..)

Exposure is your most powerful weapon here. Use it early..do not wait for things to get worse.
Plan A does not mean you should not expose immediately.
Only oyu can decide when you have had enough of plan A. That is up to you. Go with your gut as to what you can handle and what will yield the best results.
Deep breath, exposure and Plan A. Let's start with that.