After reading the POJA, It appears to me that it leaves no room for comprimise, which is one of the most important things in a marriage.

If a married couple shouldn't be doing anything that they both don't "enthusiastically agree upon", where does that leave room for compromise? Or have I misunderstood the meaning of compromise my whole life?

POJA is to create a mutually pleasant environment for BOTH spouses

so if a POJA decision creates a sweet environment for one spouse but at the same time leaves the other spouse miserable ... it needs to be re-negociated

no conflict avoiding
no tit-for-tat
so sacrificing just to appease the other

think LONG TERM happiness

sometimes a compromise works to create long term happiness ... and sometimes it might not

it would depend on the specifics

Pep

langaan,

I guess I buy into Harley's view about compromise....it sucks! LOL In a compromise, nobody really gets what they want (do they?)...they only get "some of it"...how satisfying is that? I've seen some POJAs end in a "compromise" (both give some, both take some) but I don't recommend them because they lack enthusiasm. Every "deal" I enter into with my husband....I go with my "taker"..."what's in it for me?". My "giver" is the one that almost ruined my marriage....once I started negotiating for my own needs...wow...what a difference!!

I used to think that I'd never in a million years be enthusiastic about my H's hunting trips....but it wasn't really the hunting trips that bothered me...it was the fact that he didn't spend enough RC time with me, and never planned any trips with me. Once he did...voila...happy wife waving goodbye and telling him "good luck baby....have a good time."

There are some fabulous discussions about this issue that have happened on the EN board.....this board is fantastic for infidelity issues....but that's really the place where I've seen the big POJA threads. Might want to check it out.

Compromise is often win/loose

POJA should always be Win/Win

I guess for us it sometimes seems like compromise, but when you negotiate a POJA solution you say things like "What would it take for you to be be happy about this?"


Lets say you want a new car, but your spouse doesn't think you can afford it.

Your spouse may say something like "We can't affort the BMW you want, but I think we can swing this used ford pinto."

Compromise is where you settle and you aren't happy with the result.

POJA is where you look at all the options, and are happy with the result.

"NO, I don't want the pinto, lets look some more and see if we can find something that I would like to drive, and that we can afford.

I suppose they are very similar - except you don't settle for something you aren't happy with. The pure version of POJA ould have you not get a car at all if you weren't happy with it.

It won't work with someone that is extremly selfish, or someone that doesn't love their spouse. If you love your spouse, your giver wants to make them happy, so you find ways to help them get what they want. Your taker should protect your interrests as you do that. You balance the two.

Another possibility is you get what you want, I get what I want.

"What would it take for you to be happy with me taking this fishing trip to Alaska."

Well, if you'll let me get the new furniture we've been talking about, I'll be happy with you taking this trip."

Sometimes that won't work with the budget, but if both are invested in making each other happy, sometimes a way can be found to make things work.

It's not meant to be a way to limit the other person, but a way to find solutions that increase love in the relationship by making sure the solution is acceptable to both.

Does that make sense?

SS

yes, that makes sense. thanks all.

infact its sparked a new question for me in my other post

I am of a differing opinion.

I have thought long and hard about POJA and here is what I think.

Still hit some of it on the head with her analogy.

I believe that sometimes POJA is not always feesable.

We need a new sofa and loveseat. I want brown she wants blue. (just making this up.)

Now I will never enthusiastically aree to blue and she won't agree with brown. But we do need a new living room set. Kids just spilled black ink on it.

So forget about compromising. We both have valid reasons etc.

What I might do is agree to agree with her. Based on the fact she is a woman and I am color blind(only red green) she probably knows better anyway.

However if I agree to agree but I have given some reasons for not wanting blue. IE it is light and the kids will spill on it etc. She has to agree to agree to do what it takes to mainain the furniture. You see with brown it hides stains well.

That means taking out the carpet cleaner once a month to get the spots out. etc.

If in two years the couch is destroyed because of stains etc that wouldn't be evident on a brown couch and we need a new set then she has to agree that it is coming out of her portion of our disposable income.

In other words any consequences resulting from me agreeing to agree are yours and yours alone.

Now this may seem off a little but let me tell you why doing this may work.

Because if while you are trying to POJA you are ignoring the downside of what you want but now know you are accountable if you are going to get me to agree to agree you are more likely to POJA.

Somewhat circular but if you know you can get your way but have to live with any consequences you might want to hear the persons side a little more.

What you have described above is not POJA, hl.

POJA would say that if you both can't find a solution you enthusiastically agree on, then you do nothing...

You do nothing.

Take a second to wrap your mind around this one.

"But some things must be done!" you say.

I disagree. Eventually, most situations will reach a point where you will both become enthusiatic about a solution.

POJA is based on an EMOTIONAL economic...not an INTELLECTUAL one as in your example. As I was once a pro at doing this, it does your marriage no good whatsoever to bludgeon your spouse with well ordered reason. Usually, it just makes them feel stupid. Big lovebuster on my part.

So, my spouse comes to me and says she would love the blue couch. I would like the green. Rather than stay stuck in that dynamic, is there another option...could we both love a purple couch?

POJA is not about arguing entrenched positions...it's about getting out of foxhole and exploring other ideas together.

The most important outcome of POJA isn't a solution to your problem...it's that you have taken the opportunity to respect and edify your spouse...to make Love bank deposits.

That's why the Harley's say DO NOTHING...becasue they do not believe that any problem is so urgent that immediately solving it is worth damaging your relationship.

I think they're right.

LOW,

I agree with you to a point.

However you are also working within a relationship where both parties BELIEVE in POJA.

There are certain M's that one partner does not believe in POJA. So that of course can cause problems. Hard to POJA on something when one partner believes and the other doesn't.

I will also believe there are some issues which is what Langaan is talking about that POJA and inactivity means that one person is getting their way.

Langaan's W wants to move, he doesn't. He wants to stay where he is. So the longer he sits and tries to POJA this thing with his W the more in her eyes he is getting what he wants without POJA.

I had the same sitch. FWW wanted to move to NY. I did not. I tried to POJA on the issue and what happened I got what I wanted. She would not enthusiastically agree to staying and I wouldn't enthusiastically agree to moving to NY. There was at the time no other alternatives in her mind. It was NY or nothing.

So We did nothing. Well in doing nothing I was the one getting what I wanted. So how do you POJA that.

So in that dynamic if I insist on enthusiastically agreement which I would have never done I am getting my way. She wouldn't enthusiastically agree to staying.

Now before you say well is there anyother place you could have moved to make it work. The answer was no. She wanted to be in NY. No where else. It was about being around her family. Not within 3 hours etc.

I have bad knees, a bad back and early arthritis. Being in colder climates effects all of these conditions in a negative way. The colder it is the worse they get.

So do I enthusiastically agree to more days of pain? Anywhere on the east coast it is a problem.

Now at the same time my family is in California.

Her whole point is family is important.(her family) So if I didn't enthusiastically agree to move to NY and family is important why wouldn't we stay where we have family?

Now what I heard is in my attempt to POJA on this issue I got my way. POJA was just my way of not moving back.

So the reason I didn't agree to agree is that there were way to many negative consequences that I knew my FWW couldn't take responsibility for.

IE I couldn't expect her to somehow fix my knees and back. I knew my workdays would be longer because I would have had to travel into NYC for work.

My time with the children would have been significantly reduced during the week. How does she fix that?

So here I sit with an issue that if you try to POJA one person is already getting what they want.

But you're not making any progress towards solving the issue...yours sounds like one where the GIVERS have been left home...

Neither you nor your wife is actively seeking to HELP the other get what they want in a way that's OK for both.

YOU have a responsibility of LOVE to try and find a way to make this work for HER...that's you GIVER's job.

Did you know that the Harley's say the even separation and divorce can be POJA'd?

Yes, one person can bring both their Taker and their Giver to the table...

JMHO...I think this encourages the other to do the same.

HL,

Just my thoughts here.



I believe you answer your own dilemma with this statement. As I read your entire post, it was clear to me neither you or your wife were enthusiastic about the whole POJA concept. So, if that's not there, why even bother to begin a POJA?



Exactly. Not just hard, impossible.

As someone else already said, it takes a lot of love to POJA, and IMO, even more creativity!! I have found it can actually be fun. It's amazing what kind of couch you can end up with, without it being blue OR brown!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We got leather - something neither of us thought practical at one point, but man is it easy to clean after the kids and pets have made their marks! The best part is, it doesn't matter what color the couch is if you get leather, it just cleans up so nice!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

All my best,

HN

HN,

Don't want to threadjack here.

I do believe in POJA. FWW does not when it comes to what she wants. Different sitch though. MY FWW is PA I do not know about Langann.

See with a PA doing anything other then what they want means they are not in control. So POJA means I am controlling. Way different animal.

To be honest the couch thing was a real thing. I honestly thought we POJA'd on it. Actually the sales lady figured it out for us.

Gave us the most durable couch for our sitch. We both heard what she was saying and again I thought we agreed the sales lady had valid points. I didn't even want a new Couch!!

But since the FWW is PA anything I try to POJA becomes an issue of control.

I tried POJA recently because I swear I could not enthusiastically agree. Her return was I swear to god you disagree with me just because you don't ever want to do what I want to do. That thing was moving to North Carolina.

I just wanted a discussion in which we could POJA. NOPE I am not going to do exactly what she wants so there you go.

I am not saying POJA is not possible I am saying sometimes depending on the M it is not possible.

I can tell you I would love it. There are so many times I have not enthusiastically agreed to something but If I said no or not right now I was the bad guy.

HL & others,

I don't believe you are threadjacking at all, because your examples (real-life to you of course) could be any one's examples of attempts to POJA.

I feel your frustrations first-hand. I am the FWW, and also bipolar with PA tendancies. Your wife sounds so much like me pre-A. It has taken me a long time to overcome the need to always be right, but I'm getting better at it every day. I tell you this only because I want you to have hope for your future. I suppose I am threadjacking now and should stop, but if you want to talk more about your individual sitch, just holl'r!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTW,



I have to beg to differ on this one fella. POJA'ing has nothing do do with the M, it has everything to do with the individuals who are married. I POJA with everyone I love. It takes hard work and patience. And yes, willingness.

God bless,

HN

HN,

OK I love my FWW. I do. The individuals in my M have so far been unable to POJA on anything that my FWW has deemed very important to her.

Let me give you another example.

After years of supporting my family on my own without a real vacation. I wanted to take a vacation.

Over the years we had talked about several places we BOTH wanted to go and take the kids.

I say to FWW I want a family vacation. She said me too. Lets go to Las Vegas. To say I was stunned was an understatement. We had NEVER discussed Las Vegas. I brought this to her attention. She said "my best friend just moved there and I want to visit her?"

Poja at its best here. OK honey how about this. We take a family vacation to one of the places we already agreed on and then we can go to Vegas just you and me. NO if we don't go now we will never go.

Now going to vegas was going to cost us $1,800 dollars more then any of the other vacations we discussed. Not only that it is very hot there now and the hotels cost more.

I wanted an embassy suites in one of the places we discussed where the kids have one room we had another.

Well long story short she POJA'd like this. I was going to go back to NY this summer for 3-4 weeks.(oh we never poja'd this either) and I decided I am not so the extra money is no big deal because I was going to spend it in NY.

No matter what way I went at it she made it clear LV or misery. I chose LV. The minute we got out of the car the entire family her included complained about it being 110 degrees.

A month later. I decided I am going back to NY for 4-6 weeks. Came home the non refundable tickes were purchased.

She went to NY to be with friends and family and ended up spending the entire trip with the OM who she just met.

Now my FWW 's idea of POJA is let me do this now and I won't do this later. (the later thing never being POJA'd)

So for LV I tried and by the way we saw her friend twice.

Going to San Diego looked real good the second day. LOL.

So again it takes two to tango. Oh and not doing anything which I suggested meant I just didn't agree with her so I was going to punish her. In not doing anything I meant postponing the vacation until at least it wasn't going to be in the 100's all week.

HL,

Yikes fella, you've got a doosey there!! Sounds to me like your W needs much more than help with POJA'ing, IMO, and I don't mean that to sound degrading. If I'd never rec'd help for my bipolar disorder, there's no way I could have attempted recovery. Besides being PA, does she have any other mental illness diagnosis? Meds? Just curious because of the things you've told me here.

How do you take care of yourself?

HN

HN,

Aha so you admit POJA is not always possible now!! LOL.

I do not take it as degrading either. It is what it is.

I take care of myself by accepting the reality for what it is.

I now know that what most people would accept at truth in a sitch my FWW won't if she is the one that is in the wrong.

I also know that if I cannot enthusiastically agree to it then it may cause problems. I have two choices agree or not to agree. If agreeing can cause me harm I do not agree.

She may not like it but that is the reality.

My FWW is now in AA and with any luck she might come to a better understanding of the need for more help.

Right now she has not gotten to that point.

I find enjoyment from being a good father. Believe it or not I enjoy going outside and playing wiffle ball or kick ball or whatever with the kids. Not just mine but their friends too.

Hey right now I am enjoying Sudoku. You know what this is probably the first time in 3 years I could think clearly enough to do anything that would require that.

Things are better now because I accept the reality of the situation.

This was not POJA, hl...you don't appear to have been enthusiastic about the solution...you just gave in. Yes, you attempted to negotiate...but it looks like that fell in...

Why did you agree to go somewhere you weren't enthusiastic about? You should never have done this. I was the world's worst for doing this because I was a conflict avoider.

You cannot control your wife's behavior, Just because she chooses to behave independently doesn't mean you have to or that POJA doesn't work.

I am sorry you have to suffer through your wife's childish behavior. I can see how that would make you resentful after all you've tried to do...I would be frustrated too.

we are remodeling our home

and the POJA opportunities are coming right & left & fast

POJA happends when you are open to new and exciting posibilities ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

floor to wall picture windows in the bathroom...actually saw this one a while back...

Certainly opens up exciting possibilities...

Low,

Excuse me that was my attempt at POJA. You are indeed correct it wasn't POJA.

Why did I agree because I wanted a vacation and because of my FWW's childish behavior if we didn't go where she wanted it would have not been a very fun vacation.

What I mean is the FWW has the ability to find every negative in a sitch she did not get her way on. For example if we went to San Diego she would have pointed out every single little thing wrong.

Also remember she used moving to NY as the core of every issue. I am sacraficing not being there why should I sacrafice anything else.

Now I did not know about POJA back then. In all honesty. So I can't be faulted for what I didn't know. LOL.

So as a conflict avoider I agreed. Do I take ownership of that sure. The part where I caved and just did what she wanted.

But see I did not want her to go back to NY for the summer either so I enthusiastically agreed so I could spend the summer with my FWW and kids.

I never enthusiastically agreed about NY either. She called at work one day and said I want to go back for the summer I changed my mind. I told her we would talk about it when I got home. I got home and she had already purchased 3 round trip non refundable tickets. Duration of trip 6 weeks.

So there it is. In a nice little nutshell.

I know I have to take ownership of my part and I do. I will not take ownership of someone that refuses to find an alternative that will make us both happy.

I am not an all or nothing kind of guy. My FWW has a tendancy to act that way.

... and none of them all too pleasant on the eyes

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />