ROFL...you missed my humor?

Halite you say.

Okay...back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

I do say, "That's P/A behavior." I do. I can tell you the results. See, I own my own behaviors, "I said/did that. That's P/A."

Yes, it's true. We aren't pointing fingers at each other...we are exploring what it is, this insiduous automatic reactive stuff...honestly, we are. No way could I have said that to my H two years ago...nor could I have seen it in myself.

My H hasn't withdrawn in nearly a year...because he doesn't choose to...and it was our MC who said point blank to DH, "Why did you choose to be P/A? Do you want to be a promise breaker? Why did you agree to do that with your wife when you didn't want to do it?"

Straight on. That's when I learned what P/A behaviors were and began exploring them together...that was nearly six months ago, I think...and I don't point at DH and say, "You're a P/A!" and I don't only look for P/A behaviors in myself or him...but in others...part of the exploring, knowing...not judging and condemning.

I've been doing O&H statements (as you suggested) for two years now...using "I" statements...we do communication exercises twice a week...totally safe for each other now...does that eliminate P/A behaviors? They are learned early on and become an automatic reaction from decades...not going to stop with a little awareness. And they don't hurt nearly as much to me...'cuz I know they aren't about me.

It DOES matter to me if you're labeling the person or the behavior...one is by choice, the other is who they are...behaviors are not intrinsic...they extrinsic.

You see this as debate, describing the scenario between DH and me...and I see it as intimacy. A mutual journey...and so does he.

I believe what you believe, AD...that to attack back, box and label has no growth or truth...and that using descriptions for behaviors can be dangerous...

I'm safe.

My DH is safe.

I challenge you to your assumptions here to find the value within your relationship with your xW and all you've learned...maybe there's more...looking something full in the face isn't a debate...it's an exploration. I have my truth and I fully respect my DH's truth as his own.

I know I can't protect myself from his behaviors...they are his choice. I can, however, protect him from my own.

LA

Mulan Just found this thread as I come to life - how kind of you to go to such trouble ... how kind .. I do not have the words to express my gratitude.

AD, whatever is real for you is real for you - what works for you as a belief, is yours. I see no offense in your comments on P/A.

We are not married so your comments have no bearing on my sitch.

I was like you once, that was years ago when I had yet to process from aggressive to assertive.

I thought passive aggressive an oxymoron .. stunned to find many years later, I am only too aware it is not that for me.

So no offense taken that you would post this way on this thread.

LA and Mimi, I am sorry my honesty about my feelings, stimulated in you both a feeling of manipulation. I have helped many who have announced suicidal thoughts on line and anonymusly on a telephone - there is something anyone can do, and you both did it, if you couldn't help and appear sympathetic, you resisted posting in spite of the feelinga that you experienced. I consider that a gift.

I have worked a suicide hotline since 1993, I have been suicidal a few times since D day. I did not expect to have that happen again at this stage.. I cannot share with H, his previous comments were "It would be a relief if you did it" when I begged him to help me and be a little kind. Later, when I was doing better, out came the statement " I want you dead". I am still working on being able to overcome my mistrust of him as a safe person to go to.

My family (GC) have enough to deal with and being so far away (in another country) I do not want to call and bring them into my ******.

My therapist - I am changing - rapport run its course ... bad timing to suddenly fall off a cliff.

The one thing I do know I can do to protect myself from the urge for it to be over, is to be honest somewhere to someone about my feelings.

Those who have no outlet are those whom often complete the deed. I do not want to die as a regular thought, but I have at terrible times wished I were dead and made the plan. Since then the plan is made and in place. If you do not know about suicidal thoughts or process, then maybe a little research will set your minds at rest about being manipulated.

I applaud your honesty and see no wrong or lack of honesty on LA holding back. As I said I consider it a gift from you both.

Thank you,

Linda

I am trying to be helpful to you NOW.

Because..you just might want to know how you come across to me on this FORUM...not saying that this is the way that you REALLY are...

You say:



You make an ASSUMPTION here. I have a vast knowledge of suicide from a personal and professional perspective.

I know full well about the value of telephone helplines. There is a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between being able to hear someone's voice..find out where they are, etc. than from only READING THEIR WRITTEN WORD HERE....

Since you know about passive-aggressiveness, couldn't your entire post be viewed as that way?

You are speaking to me kindly as if I have provided a "GIFT" to you. I have not tried to help you until NOW. I would ASSUME and that is a big ASSUMPTION on my part that you were NOT AT ALL HAPPY with my decision to be unhelpful. It would be a reasonable and expected response from you, IMO. So are you actually being HONEST NOW?

You say about your H's response to your SUICIDALITY:



Are you saying that his being "KIND" to you at that point in time would make you stop being suicidal? Do you bounce that easily out of true despair based on how your H is treating you at any given moment? Could he be experiencing you as being manipulative..and thus his mean comments? I'm certainly not saying that his response is OK but this seems like a communication pattern that you two have with each other.

Silver, NOW I'm being HONEST with you and I'm trying to be helpful NOW. So I will accept your gratitude for this post..

I'll even be willing to share that there have been time periods in the past when I have wanted TO DIE...

I did not ask for HELP for my suicidal thoughts ON THIS FORUM. I did not ask for HELP from my H.

Most importantly, I didn't BOUNCE out of it WITHIN DAYS...because I suffer from CLINICAL DEPRESSION and know what a LIVING HE// that can be....

You seem to be thinking SOOOO clearly...clearly enough to write this post.

You see how deceiving a forum can be? Perhaps, you are actually depressed and suicidal today but from your post here you are not giving me that impression.

So if I have reading this all wrong...I AM TRULY SORRY

SP,

I'm glad you put the "If" into the statement Mimi quoted...I do know about it, first hand...and what I learned was that it was manipulative...manipulating myself.

I did not feel your post manipulated me...that's what I got from that same quote.

I thought and prayed, SP...and what I could offer you, from myself, seemed to not be what you wanted to hear...and others were giving you what you needed...reassurance, comfort and asking you your plans...

I'm not sure I could share with you one more belief that I do to myself more than others do to me...I fear you would hear Dr. Bill in my words...feel blamed when you are very vulnerable right now...so I don't.

Doesn't indicate lack of caring or concern.

Same for me not posting to you since my last effort to help, to share...my not posting is my support, until I'm asked...and you already know what I'll say, because it hasn't changed.

You're a powerful, marvelously human being...complete and whole...self-negation as last protection doesn't work...the belief behind it doesn't work...and getting this straight stopped my suicidal thoughts after 27 years of them, graphic and daily...it was a process, which culminated in eradication after I got my belief truly set, my choice...and broke that permission, the cycle.

I believe you know a lot more than I do...if you want help acting on that deep knowledge, I'm here.

LA

AD,

I am the man with the PA woman.

Here is what has happened in my sitch now.

My MIL is a hardcore PA person. I told FWW she acts PA very, very often. It permiates our lives in an unhealthy way.

There are key indicators to many different types of behavior.

Look up the definition of an addict. You will see the main indicators, if they have enough of them there may be a problem.

Now I had been telling FWW she was PA. Her mom came out and acted that way but really put my wife to shame.

My FWW said to me one time she couldn't deal with it. She said if I ask her to do something she doesn't and when I ask her not to do something she does. She said it is completely frustrating.

I was very quite and still. Finally I said I know how you feel.

She stopped for a while then it kicked right back in. I called her on it every time during that conversation. She got very angry. DJ'd, LB'd etc.

When she cooled off she asked me to never call her that again. I said I didn't call you anything I said that behavior was PA. I also said I will point it out when you act that way. So two choices don't do that to me or I will point it out.

I said you always tell me I am in control. You are ordering me not to do something.

Now fast forward a few weeks.

She tried it on saturday. I came back with an answer on Monday.

She dropped 3 DJ's on me and by dealing with the sitch with the ways you deal with a PA it didn't turn into a hugh fight.

SO if my FWW and other peoples Spouses aren't PA but the medicine in dealing with a PA works then so be it.

That medicine is working so if she is not a PA person I was lucky enough to find a medicine that works on several different problems.