Hi Everyone,

How do I deal with this? Children being exposed to WS's verbal abuse...

During dinner while our boys are sitting there my WS tore into me verbally...I remained calm and reminded him he was making some poor choices. He said "poor choices? You don't have a leg to stand on you have been intoxicated, hit me, scratched me, drew blood, harrassed me, next time I'll call 911. That is what will happen. That is a fact."

One DS got up and left quietly the other just sat there. My WS is loco. I mean it. He is losing it. I do feel like I'm living with someone on the edge of sanity/reality.

His emotions are beyond his ability to manage right now. He is cookoo. Right after is remarks he said in a low taunt "Come on, make a deal, let's get this over with, end it."

I do need to wait to get some more info before I can make my decision...I WILL NOT ALLOW HIS STUPID TACTICS to dictate or effect when I make up my mind.

I just can hardly believe that he is acting like he is younger than my own DSs. Unbelievabe.

I'm so concerned he will continue to abuse them, hurt them to try to get me to hurry up. I can't help but think that is the action of a desperate, desperate man...Why? though...I'm not so awful...I haven't been cruel, I've been moving along...albeit not as fast as he would like...why, why, why would he attempt to damage the children...can it get any lower?

Wow, how could a father do that? I wouldn't tell them about him...he even said to me at that point..."go ahead, put it out there, what do you got...anything...say it...go for it..." I swear he wanted me to say in front of the children...well what about your affair?

I suppose he would look more rosy if in some anger rage (which I wasn't feeling...but he was trying to stir up) I blurted out the bad news in vengence to the DSs...then he avoids the inevitability...that they will know...he betrayed me...I think he wants to defend himself in front of them to my face...what a snake.

Strongest

Just keep on with what you are doing - he is unraveling fast. Let him dig his own hole deeper. Seems your boys are figuring him out themselves.

So sorry to hear that your WS is acting like a [censored] in front of the kids! I think there's a section on how much kids should/need to know. And it sounds as if it may be important to let the kids know about what's going on because now, it's unraveling before their eyes. Most important though when and if you decide to have that "talk" with them, be sensitive that you DON'T come across as though you are forcing them to take sides AND that what's going on between you and their father has NOTHING to do with them. Then allow them to ask you questions. At 11 and 14, they're not as naive as you think. It will be painful for them BUT you also want them to learn from it so that they will NOT repeat what their father is doing to you to their girlfriends or future spouses. This will be one of their BIGGEST life lesson at such a young age. BUT you cannot shelter them from it. It's important for them to see you rise from it and be the "strongest". What you want them to walk away from this experience years down the road when they look back is:

1) you stood up against their father
2) you protected them from harm and shared with them
3) you did't shelter them
4) you taught them love and respect

Now, as far as you WS, mental and emotional abuse can and may be used against him especially if he ever decides to fight for custody. Expect that he will just to p*ss you off and AVOID paying you child support. Be prepared. Add this to your battle plan. Buy a digital voice recorder that has a capacity of 7 hours or more of recording time. Turn off the bleep alarm sound. Cover the light with a masking tape and black pen so he won't be able to see it in the dark. Hide it somewhere where he will not find. Turn it on just before your WS walks in the front door. His verbal abuse will be just a matter of heresay (i.e. he says, she says) in court. It may be inadmissable. But in the eyes of the Children's Welfare Services Department, it will be a powerful tool. Your excuse for secretly taping him: You're afraid of him and what he would do and fear for your and the children's safety. And its "safety" that will get nip him in butt!

Meanwhile, be sure you have an escape plan in the event he does become violent. Have some cash stashed and a few items packed in your car or garage for you and the kids that you can quickly take with you. Make an extra set of keys for the car and hide one in your getaway bag and one in the car. You looney tune WS will go for the original keys and take those away just so you can't leave. Hopefully it won't get this nasty. But when your WS is NOT getting what he wants out of you like settling and making the divorce QUICK, you gotta be a few steps ahead of him.

Maintain your ground. He's getting pressure from the OW, his father, family, and whoever else. The [censored] is boiling over to new heights! And he's not liking it!

Stay strong.

Strongest,

Have you read Star*fish's thread on GQII regarding telling children about the affair. Don't know what court restrictions you are on but the thread may be enlightening to you.

Mr. Wondering

Hi Everyone,

Trying not to be too low tonight. Nobody...not WS not mom nobody has mentioned today was our 15 year anniversary.

Reliving a few precious moments...hurting a bit...angry a bit...he was nasty and light tonight...I must admit...I do want this separation now. This is no man for me. How could someone have minus empathy???? I don't want to complain to him...what is the use????...he doesn't care...

I'm lonely for an intimate relationship and I dislike and I'm oh so tired of seeing the body that once inhabited my husband...when it decides to pop in.

Oh...it will be better tomorrow. I'm going to hug my kids, light a candle, say a prayer, hug my pillow...I know I'm not alone....just wish I had what I thought I once had to hold onto tonight...I'll pray for God's love and comfort for my children and me tonight...and the dear soul(s) reading this.

God Bless,
Strongest

Good Morning...

Trying to get those spirits up...overcast day.

Ok...I was feeling really sure about all that I wanted now I'm second guessing everything...

Get out of the house...stay in the house...

Go to school for art therapy...or go get a teaching job...schedule will fit kids' schedule nicely for the next4-7 years...then go on for art therapy? They like me have been through a lot and it isn't over yet...not by a long shot...there will be so much more to come...moving...

Stay here in same village? or move to a village nearby?

So many choices...I go around and around...meanwhile old Mr. "hotpants WS" is holding an invisible gun to my head.

I feel like taking a nap.

I've been a single parent in a 3,300 sq. ft. house for a year and a half...going to school full-time, doing a great plan A, while learning to combat abuse...I'm tired. Not that I don't have peace...I'm just tired, tired, tired.

I know I should find a way to be nice to myself I think
...Just fininshing my grad school course workd...15 years...I'm going to be nce by starting with a nap.

Why can't he just be respectful when he speaks to me? Will he ever?



Strongest

Hello Strongest,

I hope you are feeling better. I read almost all your posts. I was wondering if you finally managed to get into the General Questions II Forum?

You may want to read about reverse babble by Orchid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> web page

Hi Larouse,

I'm curious, I love French...are you into education? grammar?

I am feeling better, thanks.
...a few whoppers (the candy) and monopoly tonight with my DSs and one of their friends ought to be fun.

You read almost all my posts? How are you feeling? I can hardly believe it. I never could get into GQII...any suggestions?

Thank you for the link...I read that one a long time ago. I remember I didn't quite get it then but it seems more relevant and useful now. Thank you for the reminder.

I guess I thought something like that would have been used for someone who was still trying to save their marraige...I'm a little lost there...I would like to reconcile...my mediator told me and him that he thought I accepted that it is over. So I did. I really have. I'm read. You Know?? Come what may. I've been doing some hard, hard thinking about what I would like...where to live etc.

Now you're and even my counselor and others offer me glimmers of hope... I love hope...and I am somewhat tired and very skeptical of trying to put in a whole lot of effort all over again...the carrot and the stick plan I get now better than before..."there is always hope." I've been too much of a doormat up until now...perhaps I find being assertive...exhausting...perhaps that is what is going on too.

I feel like I have mourned the death of my marraige and am ready for a new start...fresh start...oh dear...I'd love to be with him in love...but ahhh...

...however I don't like this relationship presently...and he just wants out...YESTERDAY. He is so full of litigation threats and such and hurtful banter and slander... I've been pretty much getting locked and resigned into thinking it is all over now...because he wants out.

HOWEVER...today I decided I didn't want to drive an hour to mediation, spend three hours in mediation, drive another hour home just so he could be disrespectful and undignified there.

I told him my first proposal for our LSA is that we agree to treat eachother with respect and dignity.

OH boy. He said "No...I'll see you in court...and you'll just have less money." All I could think was I would at least have my self respect. Letting him treat me like dirt and then throw me a bone and accept it under pressure...I'd have no self-respect...so if it costs $30,000 to go to court...and I have to pay $15,000....well that is how much it cost to get married to him with respect...perhaps that is how much it will cost to leave him with self-respect...small price to pay really...some give their lives for respect and dignity.

There is a part of me that wonders if he is projecting ...and he is saying he doesn't respect himself or feel dignified himself...therefore that is why he can't give it...perhaps due to the Affair/Addiction. So maybe this is the last gift I can give him before we go...or maybe it is the very base of a brand new better than ever marraige...or just relationship...based on trust, respect and dignity...what a nice dream...and a whole lot of contact and work!!! Brother.

Never too much in the name of love I guess...it is what I am is calling me...interesting mix up in my words there...huh? I was going to say ...it is what I am supposed to do for all...it is God in me I believe saying include him as you.

Strongest

Bonjour Cherie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,

¿Ca va?

I worked for three years for a French Institution. My French is like my weight sometimes not so good, lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. Right now I'm trying to read Le génie féminin, Julia Kristeva. I studied journalism and literature and tend to be always a little bit in the middle of both paths.

I found this link to the story of one of the posters in GFII. Her husband had a long time affair, she even bought a new house for her and her sons while he was away. Finally he came back.

Mimi recovery MY GIFT TO YOU-PLEASE LISTEN!

Believe it, I did read most of them and I felt a little sad for you but at the same time I can see a very devoted, caring woman. I do have some opinions about your situation based in the MB guidelines.



Usually I can see GFII with out login. Once there I can login. Tempest posted recently about it. He-she, said to send a mail to him with the header MB page not found and your login name, forum name and mail adress.
When I link doesn't work I try to look for other links in the same topic, if the name of the forum doesn't work, I try the name of a threat...

GFII has more traffic and the old posters tend to hang there more. I have the impression that you could get a lot of good input there too.

About Reverse Babble

Reverse Babble is based on the idea of the WS involved in an affair as an addict, with chemical imbalance and mental confusion. To justify his affair he has to rewrite the history of his marriage and misrepresent his present. Reverse Babble is not sarcasm or bulling, is simple exposing the WS confusion to himself. For example if he says that he has not had a life and that he wants to be happy, you answer repeating what he said and then adding in an affirmative tone, with out sarcasm, --Having a life most be difficult having to take care of 5 children instead of your own two, or --You need to be happy, it would take you while considering all the expenses and pain the affair is bringing all around.
My examples may be wrong, in fact Orchid example to the 'I deserve to be happy' is -You deserve to be happy, at least one person should be happy considering all the unhapinees this has brought... or something like that.

The idea is to fight the WS fog showing him the nonsense he's saying in a respectful way. Short sentences that also help you to stop his rants and make him think before he talks to you again.

Orchid posts on GFII

I'll post this and continue below...

I think there is hope for your marriage. He has not left the family home. It seems he has not had other affairs. Family and comunity are important to him. His recent reactions seem the product of a very conflicted person. Now that the OW is living near and divorced he most be feeling the presure.

I have the impression that you have done a great job on yourself during the last year but that there are some concepts that may help you to have a better position in this mess. I read on your posts you decided to 'love no matter what' during your A plan and you decided to leave the decision to come back to the marriage on your husband's shoulders.

What I understand from the MB concepts is: the WS is an addict, an irracional person, very egoist and mean and you don't love or reward the WS, only your husband, to be your husband he has to stop the affair. So you can't love the WS inconditionally, only your husband.

The WS won't decide to end the affair on his own, as long as he is let to his own will. The BS can't force him to do anything but everytime the WS do something against the marriage, the BS can say in a respectful way how she feels about that action. It's basic to repeat the affair has to end and no contact established.

Instead of offering to the WS the time to take a personal racional decision, (he can't take a racional decision) the BS remainds him with actions and words that his place is with his family.

It's not a decision between who he loves more. At this point the BS is not in a strong place to expect or demand romantic love but she offers the whole concept of the family. His family needs him, it's his place, any other option won't make him happy.

Going back to the idea of your husband feeling self pity for himself for all he has done so far... I'm not sure if you see the Middle life crises there... Instead of saying you do deserve happy and reforcing the concept of individual hapiness, you may want to reinforce the idea of the honor of doing what is right, of servicing others and taking care of a family as the biggest happiness of a man like him, a man of honor, of values.

What I'm trying to say is don't fall into his babble, he's a WS trying to justify his affair.

By now you must have noticed that English is not my first language <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You have done a superbe job. It could get a little bit more focused, not leaving the out come completely in the hands of the WS. For example you can repeat that you don't want to divorce. If he want's to there is nothing you can do to stop it but it is not your choice.

On a different front, if you can endure it, I would add some hints that you don't want to divorce but if forced to do it you will be a very happy woman and your family will be fine, his lost. For example, you can dress a little bit sexier, not too much but noticiable, have more social activities with your boys and with your friends adding some mistery. Phone calls, flowers. Nothing too much to make him jealous but enough to make him realize you are attractive, fun, interesting to other people.

I realize that you have a strong ethic, there is nothing wrong on fighting the affair, you are not fighting a personal decision of a mature person but the crazyness and selfishness of two very egoist people. It's your right to fight back in the smartest, clasiest way.

I understand why you decided not to know about the details of the affair but you need the power of the knowlege. It's different than obsesing about the OW. All the time you didn't know if they were in contact and how frecuently, the affair grew like a storm. He was not going to stop on his own and you gave him free way to trash your marriage.

It's my opinion, based on what I have read here, that your spouse is not your friend right now, take the mesures you need to take to protect yourself. Most of his feelings against you right now are a product of the affair. It's not that he doesn't see value in you, he needs to see you as not lovable.

It's just fine that the divorce or the mediations is delayed, your school is not done and the delay will put more presure on his affair, OW won'tt like that.


After all I have written I have to say I'm not married. I was in 8 years relationship, he was a pilander big way. I just read MB a lot.

I want to add some info about the 180 if I can find it, later.

xxx

Bonjour!

Dear larousse,

Merci beaucoup..for all your thoughtful in-depth, insightful remarks. It is dazzling all the perspectives here on MB. I'm impressed that you have such a good understanding of how my relationship has progressed. It is nice to have your fresh objective comments and advice.

Do you like Antoine De Saint-Exupery?...and his book The Little Prince? I love french cusine...sauces, fresh herbs, butter...yum, French art, the sound of the language, and music-classical and modern...it seems so rich and full...but I digress.

I apologize for spelling your name incorrectly in my previous post.

I read quite a bit of mimi's posts...wow...I'll read more...what a strong woman she became. I can see myself in her...becoming her...but moi.

My counselour suggested that I not become a detective/sleuth...only because I would hurt myself...hmmm...perhaps I'll revisit the topic with him.

I like these ideas your suggesting...just tonight I asked him where he was going for dinner...he said I didn't need to know...though I could tell his tongue was thick and he was uncomfortable. OW.

Anyway...he is of the mindset it is over...we are working on ending...I guess I can keep working on what the ending would look like...or the separation...while doing the carrot and the stick plan...any way...I've started running again...I want to feel sexy...for me...hopefully he will like what he sees...at least I will.

I will read and reread your posts...you gave me a lot to think about...and I sure do appreciate you giving so much of yourself to me.

au revoir,
Strongest

kiss, kiss, kiss

I like The Little Prince a lot, I would like to read his other books too.

There a lot of points of view on MB forums but I think the basic guide lines or principles are clear and remain valid for most situations. If you have doubts you can always reffer to the books SAA, His needs, Her needs, Love Busters. From Dr. James Dobson* Love must be tough.

It's great that you are running again. Bravo!

I wanted to clarify what I said about fighting the affair, you fight it by improving yourself, by creating great family moments, by showing the WS what he may be loosing if he doesn't stop the affair. So far your WS hasn't experienced the consecuences of his actions.

Have a great week

A bientot

Here is the 180 list. (Thanks Believer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Chere,

Je suis desolée about your husband verbal abuse.

Abusers flowrish* in secrecy, would you consider recording him, audio and maybe video? You can consult with your lawyer about it. If you can and want to do it then you can exhibit him or use the info for the divorce trial.

Maybe he needs you to earn money because he's spending money on the OW and her kids.

I found more about Mimi ordeal. This is the link to the months previous to the link I posted before. It's very interesting. There is a part about WS anger:

Mimi recovery Fisrt part
Up your chin girl.

Hi Larousse,

I'm sad. He is so angry. I've never seen him so angry. He looked at me a few moments ago after dinner before he went to a meeting as if he despised me and would like me dead...he then SLAMMED the kitchen door hard in front of all of us...DSs and me.

I've had a very good girlfriend tell me looks like his feelings for me have ended ...someone else says he has already moved on...others say there is hope...it is that stupid hope that makes me clean the house...it is that stupid hope that makes me want to cook a great dinner...I'm hurting tonight.

I'm surprised to find I'm still not over it yet...I want to move on faster than I am...I still have pain...I don't want to suffer. He is so mean.

Strongest,
I feel your pain. When the ones we love and want to be with in good times and bad so deliberately hurt us. I'm going through it too and she is and has been going through the divorce stuff behind my back for a year now. All the time being nice when trying to get something and MEAN when she didn't need anything from me. We've been married 14 years and it brings me back to before we were married.

We dated for 7 years and she told me she needed to break up with me because she needed space no one else in the picture. I tried to get her back and she was meaner. and she told me this:....."I have to be mean to you because I have to do this". She did love me but wanted to do what she wanted to do. And yes there was another guy. When I gave up she turned around.

Now I don't think she has another guy. She tells me that she wants to move far away and that is her problem. I don't know. But I think her anger and hurt toward me is because she still loves me. Even anger sometimes is a form of love. Indifference is the absence.


Why won't she try to work on our relationship? I don't know. I still am trying and hopeful. Maybe we can find peace. I pray for strength and will pray for you as well.

Strongest,

I can imagine how heavily his behavior weights in your heart. You had it figured out remember? The man behind the courtain...

It's not easy but if you could remaind yourself that he's acting out his inner conflicts...

I read here in MB that anger is an expresion of other feelings, like a veil. If you could look at your angry WS like if you were watching an actor and you could detach from him and just look at him and his performance... not sarcastically but maybe thinking on something positive.

It really isn't you or anything you have done. He may think that it's an exprassion of his 'justified' anger for not been able to find himself free to live with OW but it's just emotional babble.

When he says something so nasty as 'Get off y...' you could simple look at him incredulous, not angry or scared, just incredulous like, 'Are you hearing what you are saying?' and said nothing.

Mimi mentions in her thread how her husband looked at her in the eyes and shout to her, 'It's over, get it' and Orchid often tells how his WS called 911 because she was throwing his clothes to the lawn, both of them are happily married to thoses XW's who, at some point, swore they only wanted to be divorced.

You may want to try little tests to reverse babble him. Whatever you do don't let his reactions disbalance you. He's not him at the moment. He's not your husband, you only care for your H, whatever says the WS doesn't has value to you.

He's angry because he has to feel anger and behave nasty to be able to go on with something that goes against his own deep believes but mainly because he can't control you. I read once the kind of persons that only gets angry with the spous is an abuser, and his anger is a sympton of his need of control. If your husband never showed this side before you can be sure it's a product of the affair.

What do you think about calling his IC and discussing with him what is going on? Or maybe invite someone to your house, family or friends and let them see glimpses of his behavior. If he finds himself exposed being so mean to you and your sons, his mask may flat out.

Simple avoid him as frecuently as you and your children can.

I hope you find a place of pace where to stand your feet whenever you have to be around him.

Don't forget to pull the cord of the courtain if the ocasion araises.

((((Strongest)))))))

Was he always this verbally abusive before the divorce action?

I never would have thought it ethical to call a spouse's IC, but I think you might find explanations. It worked for me. X used the communications counselor for IC too. He's the one who told me X had no communication skills. Explained alot. Words are just words, I needed to learn to watch the actions.

Good Luck. You will survive and you are growing stronger every day.