And just how is a BS supposed to know the above when ALL WS say and behave as though they don't love their BS when active in an affair?

I don't think it's correct to use the word ALL.

Because, some will tell their BS that they love BOTH of them, and would like to have BOTH of them.

I guess what I am trying to say is this...

Everyone wants and needs to be loved...and to tell a BS that comes to the site that their WS still loves them is doing them an injustice because it MIGHT not be true.

Is it possible that the WS still loves the BS...absolutely. Is it POSITIVE that the WS still loves the WS...NOPE, it isn't.

These situations don't come from the same mold...just like the participants don't.

I am sure there is some flawed logic in my statements...it will just be a matter of time before someone finds it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

committed

Okay, say and/or behave as though. Hows that.

And BTW, my ex-H SAID he loved me throughout his affair and left me for OW and divorced me for her.

Well..this is part of the of the proof...

Not REALLY wanting to END the MARRIAGE..wanting to chase the "ILLUSION" as JL stated..wanting to live the fantasy...

And BTW, my ex-H SAID he loved me throughout his affair and left me for OW and divorced me for her.

Ok...but how many times are BS told by their WS "I don't love you". It stands to reason to believe that one since their actions are saying the same thing.

The thing is...it will drive a person insane to try and figure out if they mean it or don't. Whether it's the "I Love You" or the "I don't love you"...it is still subject to being analyzed.

There is NO way to be positively, 100% sure of what their real feelings are and it seems fruitless to base your actions on what they may or may not feel.

I don't think that I am getting my point across very well, so I will bow out. I would hate to be a TJer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

committed

Pep,

You asked
Oh, Yeah Pep have have pages of them, volumes actually. But, the fact is some don't love their spouse and the marriage really does end. Harley never claimed to be able to save ALL marriages. He simply claimed that many that did end in divorce could have been saved and rebuilt. The implicit assumption in this is that in many marriages the love does still exist. The issue is can the parties involved get through all of the mess?

Remember this thread was started because of Jen's thread where she stated she did not "want to tune the knife" more on her husband. She recognized that he needed to know what he needed to know but it really hurt to hurt him MORE. There was love left in that marriage on both sides.

My thread is not a blanket statement of all marriages. Some really should end, some should not but only one person sees it. My simple thought is that Harley's approach does work very often because there is love still there, but often neither the BS nor the WS can see it in the heat of things, hence our job is to offer them hope when they come here, encourage them to read the articles and learn, and sure seek good counseling.

But, none of this works if indeed one party truely doesn't love another. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It is just that this situation is rarer than people think.

Does this make sense Pep?

God Bless,

JL

I believe there are two angry dogs fighting in the heart of a busted WS - one is decent and honourable, wants to do right and stand by their marriage. The other is vicious and selfish and will do NOTHING that is not in its immediate perceived best interest.

Which dog will win ?

The one that is fed best.

The BS can help feed the good dog by plan A ark-like 'lighthouse' behaviour. But the WS has to CHOOSE to feed the good dog over the bad one.

Where that doesn't happen the bad dog can win, at least for long enough to end the marriage.

I believe MB is about proven strategies for feeding the good dog. A WS Not disclosing to a BS can be a tactic from EITHER dog depending on the intention behind it, not necessarily for 'love' IMO.

Isn't the point that... you just don't know. Not for sure.

It may bring a sense of peace to some BS's to hear that Jen and others (including me) still love(d) their H's when they had an affair.

And then it may not.

It may bring a sense of self-awareness to tell a BS to focus on themselves... 'cause no matter what, you'll always have YOU.

And then it may not.

All this stuff is obviously up for debate (as you can plainly see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

The bottom line is (in my very oh-so-un-esteemed opinion): The situation (of infidelity) isn't so unique, but the PEOPLE dealing with it ARE.

Committedandlovi,

You said
One cannot know IF the WS still loves the BS or even if the BS truly loves the WS, remember there are reasons affairs start. Hence the approach here is a "measured" one. Start with Plan A, and see if the ends the affair, establish boundaries, expose to end the affair or at least shine the light of day on it, and plant seeds that things can be worked out. Meanwhile examine the marriage to see the BS can work on to make the rebuilding better.

Then comes plan B, and then something happens. What is that something? Either divorce or rebuilding most of the time, occasionally limbo of separation.

My point is that for this plan to work underlying all of the mess of life is still love. I cannot tell a poster if their spouse loves them until I hear about their actions. And even then one cannot be sure, but the point is to take the time to dig through the mess and see what is to be found. The reason Harley's approach works is because often there is something there. It is the "implicit" assumption upon which his approach is based.

I can say with some certainty that most WS's come here with some level of love in their heart...they would not be here otherwise. Most BS's do the same. Please note that what we are dealing with here are people that actually come here. No one can promise the marriage will make it, but we can offer hope based on a lot of data.

You see my original point is how we address people here especially WS's. We need to remember the implicit assumption upon which Harley's approach is based and help the WS find what they feel they have lost. We also have to help the BS find what they feel they have lost. No guarentees that it will be found but the data suggests that more often than people think it can be.

Does this help?

God Bless,

JL

bOb said -
Actually, I thinks it's cats. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But the logic is similar - keep the cat fed at home and it doesn't have to go out picking through the garbage.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

thank you for sharing your story trix

my h was always so very loving and caring.....i don't know how he has gone so far in the other direction

i read Private Lies by Pittman and many of the things he says about a romantic affiar really hits home for me:

he said that in a romantic affair:

-suddenly the WS, who was once as deeply in love with the BS as he is now with the OW, declares the BS no longer exsists. the BS is deserted and almost erased.

-most of the time the WS files for divorce and romantic affairs lead inexorbly, almost hypnotically, toward divorce without regard for consequences and in a powerful hurry

-romantics enter the divorce ina romantic haze- nothing matters except the romance. The marriage to the BS and perhaps even the children, no longer exsist (the OW left her 4 children to be with my H)

-the BS may try to counter this sudden determination to end a life together but all of thier pleading, anger and threats are simply unpleasant racket. the WS may even suddenly move out to a secret place. (my H did this)

-if the divorce can be slowed down, reality may catch up with the fantasy (THIS is what i'm hoping for)

-Nothing the betrayed spouse can do will affect the romance, but the romance is time limited, and will most likely fall apart.

-While waiting for the romance to end don't try to out-romance a romantic, don't bother to try to arouse jealousy, don't try to get your partners attention, increase their guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness....just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this unpleasantness.


and so here i am......


i always believed my H still loved me but the longer this goes on the more i doubt that i am right

Committed...

I realize that Pep and others are just expressing their feelings today... and whether they are right or wrong sometimes doesn't matter... that it helps to express the feelings.

You are correct that every situation is different. I read words written in a journal from my W stating she felt she never really loved me... but now says she does and this was not true... just how she felt at the time. This was hard for me to process and trust one year after about whether she really did love me or was just doing the "right thing" was still in my mind. JL's post really help me understand and finally get it.

I understand this post might remind some of their own pain and hurt and I don't know what to say about that accept to offer my prayers, but it is still a post that is very helpful and needed for many.

I probably should not have even directed anything to Pep, but she has helped me out through this time... I just wanted to offer encouragement and a reminder of the good that this forum can do for many.

Shaden

i always believed my H still loved me but the longer this goes on the more i doubt that i am right

eav,

Does that keep you from moving forward personally? Are you clinging to hope and staying merely afloat instead of swimming for the shore?

I wonder if it prevents people from doing what THEY need to do.

Not to put you on the spot...and I am not familiar with your situation so I only ask because that comment is linked to where I was going with my comments.

committed

Shaden,

Yes, every situation is different. That is one of the things that I was getting at. Also, that just because it worked for one member it doesn't mean that it will work for another. They cannot tell another member FOR SURE that it will work for them.

It gives members false hope and keeps them from gaining personal growth.

It needs to be kept real for these people.

Tell them...It could work, but there is NO guarantees that it will.

committed

JL,

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining your position.

committed

C&L,

What if what JL is saying is that you choose what you believe? And by telling posters they have the choice...to believe their WS does love them or does not, it is their choice?

Seems to me that the hardest part of being betrayed is feeling powerless, choiceless...done to.

Part of my pre-A stuff was not knowing I had a choice of what I believed...I was an evidence gatherer...and what Jen said made a lot of sense to me...because as a BS, I gathered evidence that WH didn't love me...easy to do with him saying it...yet a lot of his choices and actions seemed to contradict the evidence...

Came down to me choosing what I believed and knowing I had that choice. Made a lot of difference.

LA

What about the ADDICTIVE ASPECT of an affair...

I'm sorry to keep focusing on my sessions with Steve Harley but he was a GODSEND..a BRILLIANT MAN, IMO...

When I tried to talk about my H's Depresssion or Character flaws, he would say that I HAD TO GET that it was an ADDICTION...to what the OP produced..he said that the OW was like a DRUG DEALER...

He was sooo right. Even recently, my H has said that she was "HIS COCAINE" and he was like a drug crazed addict. He wanted to get away from her/it..kept trying and had to FIGHT his way out.

My H was just as horrible, horrible as can be when he was in his affair. He seemed EVIL and POSSESSED.

I agree that every situation is different.

But do we need to ask what makes one person able to RECOVER from ADDICTION and another person not to be able to....

Some alcoholics stop drinking after a LIFE TRAUMA and turn their lives around, others end up SELF-DESTRUCTIONing like WSes...

Steve also said this to me..he will SELF-DESTRUCT while involved in the A...

i also believe this affair is an addiction for my H

it is so evident by his behaviors and words

Mimi,

I agree about the addiction, which is linked to what I posted, because in partnering an addict, one of the beliefs the partner often has is, "You love alcohol more than me!" (for example).

Choosing to believe a WS loves his drug more than you is a choice...when often a WS feels assailed and hates the drug even while using it...to Tina Turner it...what's love got to do with it?

Choosing to not believe that love is involved in the addiction...false feelings, cravings and false comfort is...is powerful, I believe, in fighting for your marriage.

LA

before and after he left, my H said that he "loved me like a sisiter but wasn't in love with me anymore" and that he was "waiting for those feelings to come back.....hoping they would....waiting for them to fall from the sky or something....but they haven't"

(of course last time he left me a message though he said he hated me because i wouldn't give him what he wanted)

his words DO sound like someone who does still have feelings of love for me....

Pittman says:

"Mild romantics can drift along peacefully in a pleasant marraige, missing the romance and not knowing quite how to go about getting any. Their marraige is placid and workable, with no crazy excitement but all the comfortable love and unquestioned committment of a long standing marriage. Such romantics may have no real complaints, but may have a vague sense that something is missing. They may be reasonably happy, but vunerable."

i believe this is the case in my situation. After i first found out about the affair and exposed to everyone, my SIL asked my H why he didn't leave me if he didn't love me anymore. he said that he DID love me and never even gave a thought to leaving beacuse he still wanted to be with me.

then about 8 months later...when i went back to work and started working long hours again, he started seeing OW again

just a few weeks before he left...this incident happened that is the perfect example of how this "romantic affair" is an addiction that has my H so hookedon it's "high" that he beleives this is what being "in love" is all about.

a week or so after we had spent an enjoyable day together putting down a new tile kitchen floor.....my H said "we spent the whole day putting that floor down and not even once did i want to rip your clothes off and have sex with you on the floor....that's how i know that i'm not in love with you anymore."

it seems he is equating "love" with the wild, crazy, consuiming lust of falling in love......and he has sacrrificed EVERYTHING for it.....so did the OW who left her home and her 4 children

and he can't give that up for our "boring, safe, comfortable, peaceful and secure love" (paraphrasing from Pittman)