I think there is no shame in your actions other then it would be a shame if you allowed yourself to be stereotyped as an “affair marriage”. You clearly were not. Affairs leave victims, often times both the betrayed and wayward. Although all here, especially you, can mourn the loss of your marriage, it was in truth failed prior to you scribbling your signature on a piece of paper. Your actions after that point left no victims. You can’t have a crime if there is no victim.

Don’t worry, be happy.

Mr. G

[color:"red"] Don’t worry, be happy.
[/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Exactly.

JL, you were with me, as K was, back when this was all going on. You know my turmoil... has been here since day one. I plowed through my situation like a bull in a china shop... and it wasn't that I didn't care, it honestly felt like the momentum pushed me along... like I was on a raft in the rapids. Not that I didn't have an oar... not that I didn't choose to GET ON the raft... not that I couldn't have grabbed onto something along the way... I take responsibility.

I really didn't want this to become anything other than what star* described... and I can only apologize for the fact that it has... and what THAT might do to someone reading it. Sheesh, I can't win sometimes. Funny, but not. I may be trying too hard.

This was not meant to be a 'goodbye cruel world'... or ... 'gonna take my toys home with me'... kind of thread... truly, I have prayed about this... my heart aches for people hurting from even the ***idea*** that someone would be getting help whose marriage began as an affair - the very thing that devistated them. I have always had a very soft-spot for BS's... and having been one, several times over, I know how it feels.

WS's experience are *completely* different. Having been on both sides, I consider myself an expert. The entitlement is inbred into the situation, at least until a WS becomes a FWS.

For me, the guilt almost ate me alive... and then my (then)H began cheating again, in retalitation of my affair. I filed for divorce. I should have been alone for longer than two years. As it was, we were separated for only a little over a year (off and on, too. We kept "trying" but he just couldn't give up his last OW)... it was he11 on earth for me. Everyone who was here back then saw it, read it, experienced it with me.

It was *during this time* of great vulnerability that I met my current H. He, being a second-time BS, was also very vulnerable. It was wrong, it was stupid and it was way, way, way too soon for both of us.

I haven't thought about all this stuff for months, really, until this weekend. The threads that brought about this one had me remembering...

So, I'm not looking for a trophy for my behavior, nor kudos, or atta-boy's... or anything other than a jumping off place for someone who's inner voice is *suggesting* that perhaps their very presense is causing pain to someone already bleeding.

I don't know what to do at this point other than to be quiet... which is hard for me, as you know.

I'm gonna Do, not Try. Cause there is no trying, only doing, or so I'm told by my good friend Yoda. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS: Thank you to everyone who has contributed. Though you aren't named, I have read every word. Bless you!

I completely agree with this, JL. Thank you.

Lori

Does Alcoholics Anonymous qualify where their clientele comes from, or how they came to be in need of help? Lord knows they need help, regardless or origin.

Over what criteria do "they" turn people away, or brutalize them "publicly" in the meeting place?

If a woman shows up at a battered woman's shelter, do they "qualify" her in any way before they offer help?

If an ambulance delivers someone to a hospital who is in dire need of help, are there judgements made before help is rendered (other than medical insurance in some instances, I'm sure).

This board is a community. People who live in any community have different likes and dislikes, but with all the choices in places to be within any community, we all choose those places that we feel safe and comfortable within, and we don't go to places where we feel we don't belong, for whatever reason. If we are normal, law abiding citizens, we hang out in safe neighborhoods. We would not willingly go to the "hood" if not comfortable about it.

The same should be true in this community...don't wander into neighborhoods that are unsafe for you. Protect yourself. If you take a wrong turn and are offended by where you ended up, leave.

There is nothing wrong with each person making a determination on what is safe for them and what is not, as relates to these boards. Or any community.

But it's the protection of anonymity that allows visitors to this community to end up in a place they don't feel safe, but rather than just exit in an expedicious manner, they are compelled to get out of their car, stand on the roof and scream condemnation at the whole of the community which does not meet their approval.

Try that in the "hood"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You can't burn down the whole town because the gangs have control over 2% of the neighborhoods.

Live and let live
SD

want my respect ... earn it

look at NBII
I have
HUGE buckets of respect for her

why?

she's earned it by plowing her field of dreams

Pep

Shattered Dreams, thank you for posting that. And JL as well. I'm heartsick the last few days over what's been going on here. I sometimes struggle with my own triggers when I talk to folks who're in affair marriages. I think I've said before that there would be times when I'd probably have to bow out of helping someone figure out what to do.

But the vicious attacks I've seen in the last few days are so very sad to me.

I know that several posters have asked for exactly what NB is offering to do -- they've said that people in affair marriages are not welcome here on MB.

We all know that's not in line with the Harleys' views. Well, I assume most of us do anyway. Probably every poster on this thread knows at least one MBer or former MBer who counseled with the Harleys -- and who was in an affair marriage.

That some are still too triggered to help is clear.

And safety is important.

But... MB is a closed-loop place. If you can't find help here, then you also can't get referrals to other places. I remember the day that the Harleys refused to counsel me (yes, readers, I'm -worse- than an affair marriage). I felt so utterly lost. Like there was no hope anywhere, and nothing that I could do to save the marriage that I was committed to.

Several kind posters referred me to someone else instead. (She was Harley-trained and certified, the only coach that I know of who finished their training course.) Now, that kind of thing is no longer allowed.

And oddly enough, I think fewer people told me I didn't belong here than have said it to the folks in affair marriages.

Dang it, that's just not right and I'm going to have to change my mind.

There are still some terribly unethical things in an affair marriage, things that require amends and stuff.

But it's a case of the greater good, surely. There is no way to undo the harm. The question becomes what someone in an affair marriage -- in any situation! -- can do to ensure that they minimize further harm and that they make amends as much as they can.

Because we are human and not even Still Seeking is perfect (he told me so and so did his wife, though she said he was really wonderful nonetheless), we will always do some harm. I did harm just this morning -- I had turkey bacon with my breakfast. Yes, a living creature was murdered just so I could munch a sandwich with with my coffee.

So NB, in this long rambling way of mine, I must ask you. Where will you go if you're not here? Are you sure that's the path of least harm? What about all the people you help when you're here? What if there is -even one- marriage that survives because of an offhand word that you said at just the right time to just the right person?

Conversely, what if there is -even one- marriage that dies because of the exact same offhand word that you said at just the wrong time to just the wrong person?

I think about that all the time. I know of marriages I've helped a little. I also know of marriages that didn't survive (including my own) even with my best efforts. A couple of years ago, I asked the same question about whether I was causing or preventing harm when I considered not doing this stuff anymore.

I commend you for wanting to look at the potential for harm in your participation on MB. You think hard about a lot of things and I admire that. I'm just asking you to think it through some more.

And you are STILL [color:"orange"]daffodils[/color].

Edited to revise something disrespectful.

I'm still on the fence here... not quite ready to commit to a "side"... but I wanted to throw out one thought and example. This example may end up being contrary to what I end up believing, but I think it is worth sharing...

Growing up with parents who are ministers in The Salvation Army, they were stationed mostly in social service centres... alchohol rehabs and hostels were a big part of these centres. One thing that struck me as odd throughout the years...

The hostel was designed to give residence to transient people (mostly men)... in addition they had a rehab centre for addictions... designed to support and assist people. They always had a rule that no one was allowed into the hostel to stay if they were drinking or drunk. These are the people they often were there to help, but they would not help them while in this state. Why not?

I'll leave the thought without an answer and hope that you can see the relevance to our current issue.

Shaden

NBII,

Mrs. W and I think you are "a" okay.

No worries

Defining the difference between Grace and fog is difficult; but I personally know it when I see it.

Mr. Wondering

Post deleted by Shaden

I am of two minds re supporting adulterers in their A based marriages.

Left brain –

FWW’s OM marriage is an affair marriage. He left his first wife and married his (unmarried) partner in adultery. Well, one of his partners.

He had children with his first W. Now he and his A wife have two young children.

His first wife did not want a D and I believe MB could have helped her. She never remarried and I believe she would even now take him back.

The A wife was in pain when I talked to her. A great deal of pain. But I was not as supportive as I could have been at the time because I had my own overwhelming pain and my own full plate to deal with.

The only reason I tried to help her save her marriage to OM is to help protect my own. I even sent her here. She did not stay long.

But now I do feel empathy for her and her children at a deeper level. Even though I do not think I would do anything differently.

Stupid, mushy left brain.

Right brain –

If FWW and OM had moved in together, or married, he would have continued to cheat, even on FWW. After all, he did throughout the VLTA. And I think FWW eventually would have started yet another A, too. She would not have addressed any of her demons.

If either of them then came here for marriage help, what would I do?

The CA in me would have just left MB.

The angry in me would have ripped them a virtual new one, right here on MB. And no PC spouting, milk-toastian member with padded 2x4’s for any A marriage would have slowed me down in the least. You think this controversy is bad? I would have eaten any and all alive to get to FWW and OM.

Stupid, angry right brain.


I am avoiding those particualr threads like the plague.

I think right brain is usually on top...

so far ... what I have figured out for myself


>know myself

>admit my own limits of tolerance

>don't be pressured into
tolerating something I ought not tolerate

>keep my distance from other people's business

>trust myself to enter the fracas at my own pace

>the art of war is an excellent reference when dealing with an enemy

>be alert, we can always use more lerts

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"be alert, we can always use more lerts"

Pep,

Right you are. We all need free software help, lol.

LERT: LINUX EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAM

Just got back from some time away from the computer... and will make this quick:

I've read the responses and am overwhelmed...

Where will I go?

I suppose... well... wherever I go, there'll I be.

I have felt for some time that I have used my cyber-communities to avoid intimacy in my real-live community. Easy enough to see how it happened, especially in my case, having moved across the country and UP. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Making friends when I hated myself and was trying to reconcile my life choices wasn't easy, in fact, it was impossible.

Do you know what it's like to tell my story to someone new? Utterly Excruciating.

All my history is here.

I have issues with privacy, as in I have none. I'm a blabbermouth and honest to a fault, I'm told. It's often a pre-emptive measure to tell someone my story -- hate me now instead of later, when I'm invested in you and my heart will be broken (not romantic love, but friendship).

Ack. Anyway, I got this back on me, I see. You see how I am. LOL

Carry on... and thank you, again, for discussing this with me.

I appreciate your comments and caring, very much, truly. Each and every one of you!

NB,

You can always e-mail me!

For everyone else,

Saul of Tarsus persecuted the Christian church. He arrested, imprisoned and killed people for what they believed.

Yet Jesus himself appointed Saul, who was later known as the Apostle Paul, to be his man to spread the very gospel that he defiled and hated. I can imagine how offensive it was for those families who had suffered at Paul’s hand. Even the other apostles did not want to accept him at first; until Barnabas spoke up for him.

Acts 9:26-28
26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord.

At some point, someone (Barnabas), had to make themselves vulnerable, to see what Saul’s (Paul) intentions were. Those who could not do that ,stayed away from Saul. What would have happened if no one ever trusted Paul (Saul)? Most of the New Testament would never have been written. And yet we are all using his letters to condemn people in (IMHO) a situation similar to his. It is also my opinion that God uses our issues and our victory over sin as our weapons for his glory.

This a quote from Pep and I whole heartedly agree with it.


Where would NBII be if she wasn’t allowed to even start plowing?

As I have been reading all of these threads, I have noticed a number of very good people looking to leave from both sides. And people with good advice leaving, because of a few, A FEW, who come on to MB seeking advice for their marriage (even though it started out wrong) is probably the greater harm.

Yes the greater harm is being caused because good people are leaving. Because when those good people leave, their experience will no longer be available for a “legitimate marriage” in trouble.

Trolls come and go, people that are not really seeking help here will eventually leave. People just looking at justifying their A will eventually leave. People will start to help them and eventually figure out what's real. They were coming here when I got here (SNL) and they will continue to come in the future. They get weeded out.

Really, I believe the only thing this will accomplish is to teach those who’s M started out as an A not to reveal that fact. Besides, I think agree with committedandlovingit, there are probably more marriages that started out as an affair marriage here on MB than we might care to admit. And at this point, I doubt that they would not want to admit it either. I think they would just rather keep it a secret and keep giving good MB advice.

Yes I feel for the BS who is triggered by someone coming here whose M started as an A, but I also know, that this maybe the place, and I maybe the person, that helps them reconcile with God, because that is God’s #1 priority; reconciliation with him. And I’d hate to be the one to have to answer Jesus when he asks me why I turned someone away who was ready to turn to him.

Very few are beyond God’s reach, and I’d just as soon stick with the examples the Harleys set.

I am reminded of a song by Casting Crowns that says “Jesus paid much to high a price for us to pick and choose who should come!”

JMVHO

Bless you all.

S&C

I am a little lost. Are you in an affair marriage? How is it working?

BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[color:"blue"] perfect [/color]

a newbie who is currently IN an affair asking this question

just [color:"blue"]perfect !!! [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

oy-vey

so, someone answer this womnan

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

ammm,

I don't mean this disrespectfully... but are you serious?

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes... I am saying that my marriage is an affair marriage. That's what this whole thread is about.

Is it working?

My H and I are in love and treat each other with respect and care. But we've gone through he11 (including losing everything, including our home) and are still struggling in many important ways that have nothing to do with love.

And of course, there are the people we harmed by our choices, specifically our children.

Is that "working"?

You be the judge. Would that be working for you? Anyone else?

Sorry if I seem snippy. I feel like I've been through the wringer today...

... not because of anyone's words, but because this is difficult, as always...

Pep, I understand your frustration... but our new friend ammmm probably does not. She doesn't know you that well yet.

Ammm, I hope you understand what NB is saying. To summarize it: "Don't do what I did."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, my sister used to say she always knew what to do: The opposite of me. Go figure.

Yep, that should be on my tombstone: Don't do what I did, do what I say. Someone write that down. LOL