Dru,

She was kicking and screaming for 3 years. The turning point was when I said either MC or a D.

I think the biggest factor is really her circle of influence. Up until she started AA and got a good sponsor her cirle of influence was a bundh of yes men or people that didn't know what was going on in our M.

No her circle of influence are people that do not allow her not to take accountability for her actions.

I am sure she tells her sponsor what has happened. IE we got into a big fight. Her old circle would say he is still dwelling on that. Her new will want to know what cuased it. Well I just told him ... Then the new will say well he has a right to be upset. No more rubber stamp validation that she is right. I have had a good circle of influence, people who believe that you don't just quit a M.

Now with the MC I am guardedly optomistic. I think sometimes she is unclear about what direction he is going in. I think I do. The second session was really the start of conflict resolution.

I know it can work if she works at it and is committed to stay in this M.

I know she will never find someone like me.

Rin

Thanks for checking in. I am gaurdedly optomistic but the difference now is I will enforce her side of the agreement. She has agreed to stuff like this in the past and not followed through. I also did not enforce it.

So this time she is going to follow through if not because she gave me her word but because I am going to enforce it.

I am gaurdedly optomistic that I won't have to enforce it.

Yes the messages were nice as well.

One of the biggest things that has been missing is appreciation for what I do. That is the thing I brought up in the first session. I think she heard that message.

I need a good weekend because next week it all breaks lose.

Baseball and soccor games both start next weekend. I need the breather. LOL

Have fun in texas.

That is great news! She seems to be responding really well. My wife and marriage has been improving a lot since we started calling the MB counsellors too.

Normal,

thanks for checking in. I gotta say this board has really helped a lot.

Validating my craziness. LOL. Or slapping me into reality sometimes.

Took a long time to get here though. Glad you are doing well!!!!!!

Hi HL,

Just wanted to say HI and how ya doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm traveling and have very little time to read or post. Will be back in a few weeks. I hope you are doing well - Dru

Third MC session is in the books.

This one was a step back.

My FWW is playing the victim to a T.

The topic was the fights and blow ups we have had. Also the conflict in the relationship between my OS and I.

FWW makes me sound like a complete monster. After the session I did a quick recap in my head and realized that. The focus could not be about the A or her past mis deeds but my reaction to those.

She continued to say how she was not responsible for the triggers etc.

I brought it to her attention and she of course became confrontational. LOL. I am the cause of the blow ups but 3 minutes into the discussion she is confrontational.

I told her she doesn't seem to take ownership of any of the blow ups. That her attitude and confrontational manner certainly contributed to the escalation. I also said that my actions may not be right but some times the are understandable.

Her response I don't think you are right. I told her I think she misunderstood what I said. I said it wasn't right but it might be understandable. She said I don't agree with you. I asked what part she didn't agree with.

She said I don't want to talk about it. See here you go again just going on and on. The conversation up until this point was about 5 minutes long.

Now I am not even mad because this is what I expected. So I let it go and then the next day she calls me up.

She started off by saying that she didn't like the conversation.

I said well you know I am now a clock watcher every time I start a conversation with you I take note of the exact time it started. You talk about how I go on and on. You gave me five minutes to talk before you became confrontational this is how it has been now forever.

What I hear is that you can only hear about me and my feelings for 5 minutes. To me that is someone that does not care about me. What you are saying non verbally is don't bother me with your hurt and feelings. This in the past is what made me angry now that I have thought about it. It doesn't excuse the DJ's and LB's but now I chose not to go down that road anymore. Because if I do then you are the victim. Forget what got us to our destination of grief and turmoil and fixate on the grief and turmoil.

We will see but I know one thing. She wants to only talk about this in MC so next session I am getting this out on the table.

Oh the other thing is she is claiming memory loss due to her alcoholism. Which is fine because the MC believes it to be true. However she remembers every wrong and the details that led up to them that I did. The memory loss is killing me. Seems like she only forgets her misdeeds and actions but not mine. LOL.

She actually challenged me on something I said that happened 2 years ago and I said well I think that my memory is a lot better then yours.

Funny thing I am upset and hurt but not as upset and hurt as I have been in the past.

She wants forgiveness from me over issues a lot bigger but seems to harbor a lot of resentment over my wrongs.

Time to make it clear that if she can harbor this much resentment over my wrongs I shouldn't even be here with such a nonforgiving person. Last time I checked many of the blow ups were due to her dishonesty with me, her flirting, her spending money, her actions. I was wrong for blowing up but maybe if she didn't do those things those fights would have never happened therefore not escalation. HMM.

Any way one way or the other this is good for me.

So last night was a great MC session for ME.

My FWW brought up the conversation we had after the last session. The one about the fights that we had.

I explained my side and she explained her side of the conversation. I said my biggest issue is she is focusing on the end result which is me being angry enough to LB and DJ. Which I took and take complete ownership of because it is wrong under every circumstance. I do have to say sometimes it is understandable. I also brought up the fact that sometimes she escalated it into a fight. I said she seems to take every sitch and disregard everything that happened up until the point where she can be the victim.

The MC took it in and then asked us to have a conversation using some techniques. Using I statements, not interupting, listnening etc.

Well we have the conversation and he keeps stopping her. A dj here an lb there etc. She assumes I will say something etc. She starts getting agitated at me.

He points it all out and says "I am not picking on you but you interupt him, you make assumptions and when he says something you disagree with you get agitated.

He also tells her that he will assume that I am not always like I am when we are there but I seem calm, cool and collected and I have very good communication skills.

So when we are done and I feel pretty darn good because she has told me for so long I am the one that doesn't communicate well.

So he says to her that she needs to be very aware of those things etc. She says well I guess when you have had to deal with it for so long....

We were out of time when she said that but I wasn't going to let it hang out there.

I said this is exactly what I am talking about. She doesn't take ownership. You have identified an area of concern in our M and now she is the victim and she is passing ownership to me. She wouldn't be like this if it weren't because of me.

We now have homework he told her she needs to take on two issues we have right now that I would normally take part in. The first one is an issue at OS's school. He told her to get the information etc then bring it back to me so we can discuss it. Three minutes after we get into the car she starts asking me to help. Go meet with the teacher and school counselor. I said the MC asked for you to do that and then we can discuss it.

She said fine I will do it and consult with HL. I said I don't want you to consult me I just want a discussion. She got mad and said you see what I am talking about he has to correct me. I said you use the words or phrases, check with, consult and get permission. I am not your father I am your partner. I don't want to do any of those things I want to DISCUSS it with you. She said it is the same thing. The MC said no it isn't. MY God. You are putting yourself in a position below him. He is asking you not to do that.

I brought up POJA and how I think it should work the MC agreed with me and asked her if she could do that.

I feel great.

She tried to backslide out of IC because the MC said we need to start going so we can get more out of it. She is worried about the expense and she seems concerned that the MC told her she should go and he suggest I go. She brought up the money.

I said well you can look at it like that but the way I look at it a D will cost us much more financially and mentally and the distruction it will cause the boys. So to me it is worth it and I will be going.

I am so glad that I started this. She is now seeing her side in this. It is not just me.

Yeah. We may have a chance.

WOW, HL! THAT WAS GREAT! I"M SO EXCITED FOR YOU! Keep up the great work! I'm so proud...

I was going to discuss this on me thread but it seems appropriate on your's. I have been reading "Linving with a Passive-Aggressive Man." I have had so many emotions reading that book. By chance have you read it?

I'm only a few chapters into it but I'm sitting back and looking at my M's past and realizing so much...i have mentioned that I have often backed down from FWH. I understand that I need to set boundaries, and I respect you SO HIGHLY for dealing with your FWW. I can see from your post the PA behavior.

With saying that, I was wondering if you can help me in regards to my situation...perhaps some advice...I would also like some from LA...you both have been so wonderful to me...

I plan to continue to read the book and deal with the emotions as they come, the anger, the frustration...all of it...From my understanding, so far setting boundaries are the most important thing I can do right now...

I even think differently of the recent suspension that FWH had...before I would take his words at face value...of course, he was the victim in the situation but I didn't realize that until last night...

What can I do? I'm fully aware that I can NOT change him nor do I want to...I want to change me in order to deal with it better.

I really am impressed with your MC. God, I pray that one day I can get FWH to go.

Rin,

For me it was getting to the root of the issue itself.

I now see when she is trying to become the victim and I make sure I do everything I can do not to give her the permission to become the victim.

I will use the fights as an example. She crosses my boundry and I want to enforce my boundry. The conversation "somehow takes a turn" into and argument. The argument hurts her feelings and now she is the victim.

The boundry she crossed is no longer the issue. The DJ's and LB's she threw out there are not the issue. The issue is me getting angry. So now I play the message over and over in my head "do not escalate" When I escalate I have given her permission to be the victim.

For example she wanted to go to NY. When I told her I didn't support that decesion she said: Why don't you be a man and tell me you are not letting me go. You are not my father and you cannot tell me what to do. See if this is the way it is going to be then I don't know if I can do this.(meaning staying married). She said be the man thing at least 3 times.

Now in the past I would get angry and possibly shoot back and return her DJ's in kind. I just kept saying don't escalate.

When she was finished I just said "You know you don't like it when I get angry and call you names but you just did it to me. In the past I would have returned fire but I won't do that anymore." She claimed she didn't say anything wrong. I said you told me to be a man.

That is challenging my manhood, insulting, hurtfull and mean. I don't believe I diserve that. Just to let you know I have committed to myself not to have anymore of those fights but when you do that there is a possibility it may occur.

It is very hard to have someone say those things to you and not react in a negative way.

When she is acting PA in other areas I do not buy into the victim thing.

When she lost her job I was supportive but I did point out she shouldn't have had such a bad attitude and discussed it with the other people in the office. Do I believe she should have lost her job? No but she did have a part in it.

I am basically pointing out in sitch's what she owns and refuse to ever let herself become a victim when she had a part in it.

I cannot change my FWW but I can change the way I react to it. I will no longer give her permission to be the victim where she needs to take ownership.

Now when I enforce my boundries it is more of a take away type of a thing.

If she crosses my boundries I choose not to interact with a person that does that. I make her aware of the fact I didn't like it. Then I basically don't really talk to her for a while. I keep my distance from her. I just really don't want to be around someone that gives themselves permission to treat me like that.

When she comes to me and asks if I am mad I say no I am not. What you did, said or the way you acted bothered me and I just don't want to be around you for a while.

I don't want to fight with you. I don't want to argue with you but I WON'T be treated that way.

It is very hard to do. I have the same problem taking the FWW's word at face value too. But because I am now keenly aware of it I know there may be underlying reasons she is not telling me. With that being said I ask her what she thinks her part is in it.

If she has a part she may not say anything but at least she is thinking about it and she knows I am not going to jump in and help her become the victim.

See I hear your stories but today when you metioned MC and the discussion...I SOOO saw it...well, I'm going to bed after I read a few more pages.

Take care and have a great night...sweet dreams!

HL, it sounds like you are doing great. Remember that P/As are heavily invested in being victims and it is a very difficult role for them to give up.

Hang in there - this stuff is deep-rooted and can take a long time to get rid of.
Mulan

Mulan,

Thank you. I understand her investment. I am a big believer on return on investment(ROI). As it stands now is I refuse to give her a return on her investment.

The less she gets out of it from me and everyone else makes her investment silly.

You see in the past lets say we fought about something I got mad. She called everyone up and told them what I did and how much it hurt. They told her how sorry they were and how horrible I was etc. Big victim and everyone told her so.

Now we get into it she can't be the victim. Can you imagine the calls after that. I am so hurt by HL. Why? Well I crossed his boundry, he stated it, I got confrontational and he just walked away instead of yelling. Did he call you any names? No. Did he yell? No. So he just is not talking to you for a while. Yes.

Well what happened. I .... Oh. He didn't yell or get mad at you for doing that? NO. Geez if I were him I would be pissed off.

That is the realization that turned it around for me. She used her victim status to get people to agree I was wrong. So what is her return on investment now?

She is PA. I don't blow up. She can't call and get sympathy and now I won't talk to her until I get over it. If she choses to let me get over it by myself without an apology or an acknoledgement of what she did then it takes longer for me to get over it on my own.

Again I refuse to treat her mean but I also don't deserve to be treated like that. I will not associate with people that have no regard for me or my boundries.

Thanks guys. I feel great!!!

Hi HL,

I've been away on holidays for a bit...but I'm all caught up on your thread now and just wanted to jump in and let you know I'm pulling for you!

I'm glad to see you're feeling so much better...and that you finally have someone in your corner to help with the negociation involved with the recovery process.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you're wife keeps holding up her end of things and really gives the MC some honest effort.

Keep it up HL...you're doing great!

B.

Banyak

Thanks.

Well it seems like MC is becoming a double edged sword.

Instead of looking inward at her stuff and taking ownership she is now looking toward me and my stuff.

Since the last session she is disregarding the homework the MC gave her but is pointing out every little thing she thinks I do wrong.

Some of it fitting into her PA behavior. One of my biggest concerns is her not respecting my boundries. When she doesn't she want's to dictate my response. Sunday morning YS had a baseball game. It became clear she was not happy about it and was going to ignore her commitment. She decided to sit me down and tell me that I need to not get agrivated if we are running late. UMM how about not running late. She decided it was the perfect time to go grocery shopping after her little sit down.

So I get to get YS ready for the game. Bring him down etc. Game starts at 11am. She shows at 11:20am. YS had already had his first at bat. She walks up and informs me I shouldn't be upset with her. Now mind you she could have gone grocery shopping any day. She works 4 hours a day.

Then she proceeds to complain all day about the double header we have to endure. UMM I distictly remember being against baseball and soccor for this reason. OH HL it will be fine, YS wants to do it and we should support him.

OK so when the consequences I pointed out come to fruition now you are going to complain all day.

I know what is wrong with me. When is she going to see what is wrong with her?

Reading a book assigned by the MC called "Getting the love you want" It is tough. I now see the dynamic that we had, and continue to have. Funny thing is on my side what I did wrong was not enforce my boundries, avoided conflict and gave without any expectation of getting anything in return.

That should be an easy thing to deal with. LOL. Wait she has to much vested in the old M to give it up that easy.

We will see.

Well, seems like you are in a little rough patch. i look forward to hearing what the MC says about FWW not doing her homework.

I have faith that you'll make it through...it's just so funny that FWW has such a shoer term memory when it comes to things that she does. If it makes you feel any better FWH is the same way.

Well, do yourself a favor and try to recenter before you get home today! You mentioned being a bit off from the weekend.

YOU know you have been doing great...keep your head up...

Rin,

Her short term memory is really getting to me. Seems to work out well.

She forgets her wrongs and my rights and remembers her rights and my wrongs. LOL.

I know I am doing great under the circumstances but we need two people working hard.

I know what will happen at the MC. She will claim she did it, I will say no. She will ask why I didn't remind her. I will say MC didn't tell me I had to stay on top of you. You are supposed to be doing it on your own. Then she might say she did do it. OS did good on homework and it settled the problem. Or we went to back to school night and did it after that.

I think what is bothering me now is I have been forced, by myself, to reconsider who I am. To look at my faults. To try to figure out the right way out. She doesn't seem to want to do the same.

She doesn't validate and empathize. She tries to make all of my statements invalid so she doesn't have to empathize. Yet expects me to do differently.

She had nothing to say about the whole banner situation and how it embarassed me. How the poor lady felt that she did it too. I think she owes that lady and apology. My kids just walk away.

Oh and BTW the whole school think worked out because when I made OS do his homework even though she thought it was ok to go in with 8 wrong on a 30 question homework assignment the teacher recognized his hard work. He had such a great feeling of accomplishment.

So did she ever say well HL I am glad he completed the homework it seems like a good start. NOPE.

My EN's
SF
O & H
Recognition
Appreciation
Respect.

So far I get SF. She wonders why I want it so much. It is the only need she is willing or capable of filling right now.

It really is scary how much our S's are alike.

I don't know what else to say except I can understand the frustration that you feel.

Well Rin think back I told you I think you married my FWW.

Sound almost exactly alike. That is why I have kept a keen interest in your thread.

It validates I am not crazy in my feelings. Two different people feeling the same way about almost the exact sitch.

I think being here helps a lot. It does keep me centered because I know I am not crazy and I can only do so much. I can take ownership of mine and that is it.

I can't make her want to recover this M. The homework and her past actions make me feel it is not that important to her. With that being said she wants it to be important to me.

I think that would be crazy. LOL.

BTW you remember the POJA on the car. Whole lotta good that did. She opened up a pay pal account and said she was putting her B Day money in it. $38 to be exact. She just spent $50 and keeps looking. She said she was hoping I would give her money. I pointed her to her new car and said that is your B Day present because you haven't worked the extra hours to pay for it.

One more purchase on her part and I am going to take the car and she can have mine. If she won't sacrafice for it then I have too. So I might as well get the item I am sacraficing for. God I like that car too.

LOL, I really think that you will take the car...

WOW, it just hit me...FWH gets $40 a week...well, there's been several times that we have purchased something and he said that his money a week will cover the cost. Does he ever get that up...NO. Even if we get into a bind. Now, I really don't mind all that much because he use to treat me to lunch, or like now buying me a cup of coffee before he comes home...but the point is he says he'll give it up and doesn't...LOL

After D-day, I started taking the same amount but some thing came up and I stopped...oh, I remember, I hit a parked car at FWH's work...I borrowed the money from my boss (more like a dad sometimes) after D-day (my concentration was shot, I've got a clean record) and paid my boss back...that's what ended it. I paid cash for the guys bumper so we didn't have to go through insurance. Oh, after that was the additional cost of daycare for OS after he got out of school...

I just never started taking the money again and now I can't with H's suspension. I'm going to have to speak my mind on that one with the time comes.

Rin,

At one point I put together an Excel Spreadsheet on spending. It was a sobering experiance. Two out of three years she spent ALL of our disposable income on herself and then some.

She has replaced the word want with need. I need my eyebrows waxed, I need my arms waxed, I need new clothes.

Now the other night when she told me she won the auction for a suit that was more then she said she would spend her response was I haven't spent in a long time. Well I can say the same but with less to show for it. LOL.

So in her mind it seems like a time thing. I haven't spent money in 3 month's not an amount thing. Well when you did you spent $500 and I haven't been able too.

Seems like she wants to reward herself. Now she has a new job where they have to dress professionally. After the A I told her to stop spending. I lost 50 lbs and needed new clothes. Her response "it isn't my fault you gained all that weight" Well no but I only had 6 pairs of slacks 3 of which were 3 years old. So now I would like to have 6 pairs of slacks that fit. I am a great bargain shopper, I have to be, and I am able to get them for less then $25 per pair. So grand total $150. She spent that on two pairs of boots she needed more then I needed the pants. Now she is complaining she doesn't have enough.

So she spends we both sacrafice for a while until she feels comfortable spending again. Then she spends we sacrafice until she feels comfortable spending again.

No corolation to my sacrafice and maybe me wanting to spend now. Hey when does it get to be my turn? Then she says well lets go buy you some stuff. UMMM no the bank might take issue with that.

I don't even know what to bring up in the next MC session at this point. Can't go this week because of parent teacher night.

Now she knows I am upset about the weekend so she is calling and stuff. I feel like the parent again. Daddy I know I wasn't good this weekend but you still love me right.

Well I would never disown one of my children but she isn't one of them. LOL. I hope that realization hits soon.

Hi HL!

I am glad you are getting validation through your MC. Sounds like a really good MC!

From what you described about the spending habits, it sounds as though you two have spent many years stuck in the pattern:

HL sacrifices, avoids conflict (ie is not honest about his true needs and feelings), gives too much, and accumulates resentment/ W is protected from adult responsibilities, takes too much, believes she is victimised and accumulates resentment..... and so it goes on.

So, I guess that if it has taken many years to get stuck in a certain pattern, its no surprise if it may take a very long time to break out of that. I am very impressed with the progress you have made in such a short space of time, though. Your W is probably reeling from the changes. But don't let up! Keep it up !

I understand about how hard it is to really look honestly at our motivations for getting into patterns. Have you ever posted on LA's villager's thread? I found it was useful to understand the payoffs for certain behaviours that I could never explain to myself otherwise.



I know its hard...maybe detachment is key here? Try expecting nothing from her. Concentrate on understanding what is your truth and speaking from that. Whatever she says in MC, float above it. If the MC asks for your perspective on her homework, give that simply and plainly. Don't get into a debate about it. It doesn't matter. You can't make her do the work. Hopefully you are feeling the benefit of your work, though.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Kudos to you for working so hard at this!