I agree. I am going to talk about it tonight and I am going to make it clear that I intend on not going anymore if we are not going to talk about my feelings etc.

And now that you say it I think the MC might have been focusing on it.

Here is a big duh for you. He told her she needed to go to IC. He suggested I go. I am going to go but duh on my part.

GEEZ we shall see.

Even if we do though what is the carrot. I mean I have been on the PA thread and I don't know if I want that dynamic anymore.

Why trying to fix all that is broken. She has completely devalued me and our M.

And Hey I am not tricky I was just tired of having hurt in my name. LOL.

I have dealt with a lot and I am tired of dealing with it.

Heck she hasn't even been radically honest with me at this point just another win.

I mean I think that would say it all wouldn't it. I told her I wanted Radical Honesty she said no and she has won.

You have to get out of P/A language. There is no "win" for her is there? She is going to lose her gravey train, and every time she P/A attacks you and hurts you, she gets nearer to losing her devoted husband and the gravey train she thinks she is on. Doesn't sound like a win to me.

So look in the mirror and feel sorry for her that she is sooo addicted to her P/A power, her supposed victim status, that gives her permission to act ss she does, that she is throwing away what BSs here are looking for. Look at yourself and know that you have the growth, the knowledge and the strength to have a better life with or without her.

She is a pitiful addict, misled by her own behaviour, into running toward a life with no one but herself as a friend, confidant and supporter.


OK, - now say after me - I am the coolest - I am the bomb - she is making herself lose the MAN of her dreams. She is not a winner when she hurts me.

Linda

Hey FNM,



Good for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



So you're human. As you pointed out, this is the dance you grew up with, right? Its HARD to change a life long pattern of behaviour. I am struggling with it. So are many here. Give yourself some credit!

But now that you are aware of what is going on, notice it. Just noticing it and not reacting instantly is already a long way towards detaching. Be careful of stonewalling, as Mulan said. Not reacting instantly, stating your boundary and not accepting bad treatment, and stonewalling (simply refusing to respond) are 2 very different reactions which send different messages.

I agree with Dru and SP. Forget about your FWW. In MC focus only on what YOU feel and what you NEED to stay in this M.

Thinking in terms of win/lose is just more attachment, as SP points out. Your W has won nothing if she loses her M because of an infantile behaviour pattern that she has never grown out of. There is so much pain behind P/A behaviour. You are entering into her skewed view of the world when you think there must be a winner and a loser.

I am the coolest - I am the bomb - she is making herself lose the Man of her dreams. She is not a winner when she hurts me.

I agree she will lose if I leave. But her PA behavior has already given her an out as well.



I think that is what I am trying to do. This sunday that is exactly what I did. She did her thing and I just absorbed it. Later I did say I found it unacceptable that she do that. The weird thing is that like I said I barely had to bring it up because she was listening to a sermon about what she was upset about. The sermon stated my side that she thought was wrong and caused her to be upset.

Now last night. We had homework to do. We went over our homework. It is almost like the en questionaire. We list our ideal relationship criteria. IE We trust each other. Then we rate it on importance. Then we put a check if we think it will be difficult to achieve.

Then we read them and check off the ones that we had in common. Then we discussed the ones we had in common that we thought would be difficult to achieve. LOL.

All but one of the ones we matched we both rated difficult to achieve.

The MC is making her go first, he said because she needs to start taking the lead. The real reason is because if I went first she would feel attacked. LOL.

So her reason for not trusting me. Because of the fights. Her reason for not feeling safe. The fights.

When I went in I told them I wanted to talk about what was said last week. He said lets get through this first. Good Idea. Because everything I wanted to say, which will happen next week corolates to my difficulties.

He asked what I thought about her statements. I said to me they cause me a great deal of concern. He asked why. I said I am finding it very odd that my FWW will refuse to discuss the past that may have led to these fights. Her part in this. So we are discussing the end result of something and trying to say the reaction shouldn't happen. I agree with that but does that mean we don't have to change anything else? I said if I get angry about something and then my FWW keeps doing it what will the end result probably be. Is it fair to ask my FWW not to do those things? Things she has admitted were wrong? She kept saying she always feels like the other shoe is going to drop that the next fight will happen. I said well maybe she knew something I didn't and if I found out the next shoe certainly would have dropped. HMMM

I said it seems like my FWW looks at this through a telescope. She looks through the end that makes things bigger when I do something wrong and she looks through the end that makes things smaller when she does something wrong. She freezes the movie at the spot where I have made the mistake but refuses to talk about the scenes before that.

I said now if the idea here is to ignore what led to these things and then focus solely on my anger what I am hearing is the only thing that needs to change is for me not to get upset when she purposely hurts me. He stopped me right there and said lets talk about that later. LOL.

Now another good part. He asked about when we go out if I get angry and she said no. I said one time in the last twelve years I actually got mad at someone in public. He asked what happened. I said we went to get ice cream and the guy behind the counter disrespected my FWW.

He asked her what happened. My FWW said he went over and was about to go off on the guy but stopped himself short of that. So he didn't cause a scene. He said really. She said yes. He asked her how it made her feel.

She said good. He said give me another word. I felt like he protected me. I felt like he cared about me. I felt safe.

Then after saying all of these things he said on your list which one do you think he does right now.

She said "He is my best friend".

Ok the look of confusion on his face was almost laughable.

Then at the end he asked me if I forgave my FWW for her affair. I said absolutely not. I said and maybe next week when we talk about my stuff she will know why.

So now the door is finally open. Where I can talk about trust and why I don't have it.

Finally when I brought up the statement about not doing what I want her to do because I told her too. He said well can't you understand that. I said if it was just about that yes. But that is the pattern of behavior that has caused me to get angry these last three years.

That was when the session was over. He asked us not to talk about what was said and use it against the other person. I was fine with it.

So I was quite on the way home doing my processing of info and my recap. She asked if I was mad. I said no.

I am really relieved today. I already feel like a weight has been lifted off of my chest.

frog - have you ever seriously validated to your wife her very real fear of being controlled? Have you ever said to her, "I really do understand that things like POJA feel like 'being controlled' to you. I really do get that."

Again, don't say this and then sit there waiting for a response - just say it and then go do something else. Acknowledging that my H did feel massively controlled and therefore enormously threatened by POJA was very helpful in our case.
Mulan

Mulan,

I fogot about that. One of her visions of a ideal relationship is actually discussing things and working together in making decesions.

I am almost there. I really am. When I called her PA before it had a dramatic effect. I do not want to sabotoge all the ways she is showing this. If I make her aware of that she will put her mask on at MC.

If I point out all of her PA behavior right now you and I both know she will stop for a while. Every one of these instances right now are being discussed at the MC.

We are getting there and that is what the next session is going to be about. About how I don't feel I can trust her because she doesn't follow through. How I don't feel safe because when I have a boundry she purposely crosses it. ETC.

That I why I feel relieved today. It is going to finally come out and now the MC has seen it and she has actually admitted to doing it. I feel relieved because finally there is a third person there that can say my feelings are valid and important. Then finally put the ball in her court to decide she needs to get help or things will never get better.

She already called today to appologize to me for her actions this morning.

Thank you.

Hi, I was checking on you! I miss you and that great humor! You've been quiet today!

I updated on LA...I would like to talk...

I'm a little lost on where you are but I'll catch up! LOL

I hope that you are doing well today!

So I had to go out of town for 3 days. It sucked. LOL

So yesterday was our MC session.

It went boom real quick like I suspected it would. Our exercise was continued but it was my turn to say why I didn't feel safe, trusting etc.

I got about 5 minutes into it and then boom she erupted. Quite a site to see. Now remembering her biggest issue has been our fights. I took ownership of my part in it but she has maintained I erupt. So out of the blue she calls me an IDIOT right in front of the MC. Oh btw I was crying while she was doing that. Then she said she hated me.

So as the MC tried to get her to calm down she kept going on for a while even saying see this is why I want a div oops almost said it but stopped. POOR MC couldn't get her to stop digging a deeper hole for herself.

He asked her if she thought I was faking my emotions. I could barely talk to be honest trying to fight back the tears. She said no but I am tired of this.

I had brought to light her PA behavior. How over the last 3 years everything I asked her to do she didn't do and how everything I asked her not to do she did. She of course denied that and I started to give some examples and boom again.

I brought up the picture she left up and how in the last session she said I took it out on her when I heard a song or saw a tv show as triggers. I said she purposely left a trigger up for over a year. I said there were times where I was out and hit trigger after trigger only to come home to see that picture. I was crying and told her there were nights I cried because of that picture. Boom.

She said fine one thing you won't let that go. I said what about: the football, the bellybutton ring, the photos, the outfit. Boom again. I said well was it fun rubbing my nose in it for you? He asked if they were gone now. I said yep after 2 and a half years and a bunch of the fights she hates.

So then she started getting mad at me. At this point she had inturupted me about a dozen times.

So I said this is like a boomerang relationship. He asked me what I meant. I said here are all of these things I asked my FWW not to do or to do. She doesn't do them like she PROMISED. She chose not to do what was good for me and our M and chose to do things that weren't. Then every month and a half it would finally build up and then boom. Then when the boom occurs she doesn't focus on the issues just my anger.

Sounds like to me she wants to do what she wants, when she wants, and how she wants and if I get upset that is what is WRONG.

I said now in the past after she had called me an idiot and said she hated me I would remain calm until she intensified her attacks on me then I would stoop to that level. When I did though she was the victim.

He talked to her for about 15 minutes. She kept saying she had gone over it with me way to many times already. I said no you lied and then when I found the truth you would admit to it. Not the same thing.

So finally he asked her why she is so upset. He said it sounds like once you make a mistake it isn't ok to talk about it. He told her that he thinks that just like a broken bone that wasn't set right sometimes you need to rebreak it and start over.

He asked her if she would be willing to talk about the A. Boom. She started yelling what do you want to know? Do you want to know what positions what. He stopped her again.

I said that was pretty mean. He agreed.

He asked me why I hadn't forgiven her. I said based on all these things she keeps yelling at me about she seems to be very unremorseful and unrepentent. I mean really which one of those actions sounds remorseful to you. If I were to say anything I would restate it seems like she was intent on rubbing it in my face. Sometimes doing so because she lied about it then only later finding out what she was doing was even worse.

Then I said for 3 years now not one thing I ask her do do has she done. I would like her to just start doing things for me without a fight. If she doesn't want to do them don't promise me you will. Why promise me something you dont' intend on doing.

She got angry again and said what do you want me to do? He stopped and asked if she heard what I asked. She said yes. He said what did you hear. He wants me to do something for him but won't tell me what. He said even if he did would you really do it? She said yes. He said then again what did he ask you for? I don't know she said. He said he wants you to consider his needs, not today as a chore but he wants you to stop fighting him every time he asks you to do something.

Well there was more but it was interesting to say the least.

Hi, FNM...

I'm sorry that your FWW is still causing you SO much pain...I am empathic to what you have and are going through...

It all sounds really familiar...

I'm trying to keep up with you...

Keep your head up...I look forward to sharing with you more...

Rin,

Thank you for checking in with me.

I have had a good personal weekend. I have spoken with my mother today and have a plan to move forward.

After thinking about the last MC session what I have realized my FWW doesn't want to take ownership of her actions.

Instead of dealing with the past in an honest manner she keeps waffling. One day our M was good before the A then it was not. She sat down one day and appologized for her drinking and how it has hurt our M but then the next minute our M was bad because of me.

All I could think when she was yelling at me and calling me names is that she has denied this the entire time but in a place she should be on gaurd from doing that, she does it anyway.

Then just like every other time in the past she picks a spot where she has less then 10 minutes to talk and then wants to talk about it.

I think the funniest thing is when I told her it bothered me about the last session her calling me an idiot and saying she hated me, her response was well aren't we supposed to be honest in MC. She said when we come out of MC I get mad that she spoke the truth. I was confused a little. LOL. So you were being honest and you think that is why I am mad. She said yes. I said so you hate me and think I am an idiot. LOL.

Finally she said the thing she does "he thinks our M was so great before our A and it wasn't" I said then why did you tell me all your friends thought I was great? She said her friends hated me. I said who. She said her two friends in NY. That hurt the most. What it means is these two people that don't know me, hated me. Where were they getting such a negative perception of someone they don't even know?

Well I guess my FWW was so busy focusing on me not moving back to NY she forgot all of the good things or they don't count.

So now I haven't really spoken to her all weekend. Short answers really.

I am so indifferent right now. So my mom is going to speak with her husband to see what the rules will be for me to move in with them after the first of the year.

Unless things change dramatically I will have to leave.

Feels like a big relief.

FNM,

I haven't said much to you since our DJ fest...and I follow this thread as well as your posts to others...because I believe you have a great way communicating all of your stuff really well.

I was wondering if you would permit me to post to you my views regarding this thread?

I would address this: "I had brought to light her PA behavior. How over the last 3 years everything I asked her to do she didn't do and how everything I asked her not to do she did. She of course denied that and I started to give some examples and boom again.

I brought up the picture she left up and how in the last session she said I took it out on her when I heard a song or saw a tv show as triggers. I said she purposely left a trigger up for over a year. I said there were times where I was out and hit trigger after trigger only to come home to see that picture. I was crying and told her there were nights I cried because of that picture. Boom."

And this:

"I think the funniest thing is when I told her it bothered me about the last session her calling me an idiot and saying she hated me, her response was well aren't we supposed to be honest in MC. She said when we come out of MC I get mad that she spoke the truth. I was confused a little. LOL. So you were being honest and you think that is why I am mad. She said yes. I said so you hate me and think I am an idiot. LOL.

Finally she said the thing she does "he thinks our M was so great before our A and it wasn't" I said then why did you tell me all your friends thought I was great? She said her friends hated me. I said who. She said her two friends in NY. That hurt the most. What it means is these two people that don't know me, hated me. Where were they getting such a negative perception of someone they don't even know?

Well I guess my FWW was so busy focusing on me not moving back to NY she forgot all of the good things or they don't count.

So now I haven't really spoken to her all weekend. Short answers really.

I am so indifferent right now. So my mom is going to speak with her husband to see what the rules will be for me to move in with them after the first of the year.

Unless things change dramatically I will have to leave.

Feels like a big relief."

LA

Hi FNM,
What about your kids? Wasnt the point NOT to leave them with her? The whole point of trying to save the marriage was for the kids, dont abandon them with her now because your feelings are hurt (again). You are stronger than this.

I'd ask her why she wants to stay married if she hates you and thinks you're an idiot. Remember she's the one who pushed for MC over D. Let her spell it out.

I wish you'd hang in there longer. You've just started scratching the surface at MC. You knew there would be more ups and downs. This isnt very suprising, to me. Couples have to get through lots of pent-up anger... she's been angry for a long time, hense the A. It's not a surprise she's got so many negative feelings towards you, either. These are HERS, but they are there, and you'll have to get through them. Just my thoughts. I know you are in pain. I wish I had more to offer - Dru

Dru,

Thank you for your kindness.

Yes we are scratching the surface. What I have come to terms with at this point is my FWW doesn't seem like she wants to deal in reality. I know this sounds bad but I finally called her out on it. She can only remember sitch's that cast her in a negative light perfectly.

She even skewed the beginning of our relationship. I almost had a good laugher about that one. When confronted with the truth she changed her story.

Now what is most troubling is she is killing all of the good she has done. She was an alcoholic. One day she sat down and appologized for not being a good wife and good mother. That meant a lot to me. In MC she undoes all of that with her unremorseful, unrepentant diatribes about how bad her life was before the A.

So in the last session it is obvious to me that my FWW thinks her biggest mistake was moving here with me and then getting stuck here. She says that was a big mistake. She says she never intended on staying here she just wanted an adventure then she got pregnant and trapped. She wanted to leave right away.

She sees her life as being much better if she would have never come here with me. I became the enemy.

She has pushed for MC over a D because it is the best thing for her. I called her out on that as well. I said if I were a betting man she would rather be stuck here with me then get a D then wait to move back to NY. She has stayed here because it is better to be here then go through the discomfort for a few years then to move back. NOT A Word out of her. Most people would say that was absolutely not why. She just sat there with nothing to say.

The MC was waiting for her to say something about that and nothing came out.

It is now evident why the first MC said "have you ever thought this M means more to you then to her?"

So I am the enemy in my own home. I am the reason she has made all these bad decesions.

She never wanted to stay with me and she is trapped.

The funniest thing is I waited 2 years after the birth of our son to marry her. I told her I never wanted her to think I married her just because she got pregnant. I told her I wanted to know I married her because I loved her.

I guess she didn't feel the same way.

She even said she wishes when she got pregnant she left me.

So an M based on her being trapped.

In the meantime I was a great husband to her. The only thing she didn't get from me is moving back to her home town. She sabotoged that too.

So now it is evident to me that she has done much of the damage even after the A because she could give a rats behind about my feelings.

Evident by the fact as I was crying in MC she was yelling at me and calling me names.

Then when I say she should really consider the way she talks to me the excuses flow.

Even the MC sees the double standards in the way she expects to be treated and the way she treats me.

I am done being hurt and shot down by her. I don't deserve this type of treatment nor will I stand for it any longer.

She has a little more time but so far she hasn't taken ownership.

Heck after I called her names she didn't talk to me for a week but she calls me names and wants to forgive and forget. Remember the name calling is why she wanted a D. LOL.

FNM-

I am truely sorry for your pain and suffering...from my POV...i think that you need to recenter...focus on you...what have you done for yourself lately?

Another thing I wanted to point out was the fact that not so long ago my WH said in no so many words that he wasn't sure he liked me...and now, he's wanting me to stay...

IMO, I think with S like our's they are so confused on the inside that it really makes it hard for them to determine who they are feeling these things about...how often has your FWW or my WH projected their feeling?

Would you consider that now may be the time to do nothing? We are miles ahead of our S in our growth...you once said to me that I needed to let him catch up...now I return those words to you for your consideration...

Although in different sitch, we have alot in common...I'll stand still with you and wait...

You can do this...look at your progress...istn't it true that sometimes we learn more by watching...like LA says...we're Human being and not doing...

Just me, looking out for you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

Thanks. Yes my FWW's new mantra is Progress not perfection. It is an AA saying.

I have made a lot of progress and looking back over the last 3 years my most happy and healthy times have been when I was completely detached from my FWW.

I have been still and I want her to catch up but it is evident she has a view of life very different from my view.

I have grown and in my growth I realize that happiness is important.

I haven't been happy for a long time now.

Even before the A. But she refuses to take ownership of her part in the deterioration of our M before the A.

So I am tired of hearing she was so unhappy before the A. Why because she wanted to move back to NY. That made me a bad husband? Please. She was hostile toward me at that time as well. We go to an MC to try to resolve that and because he doesn't think we should move we stop going. LOL.

So she wants to hold on to me being the biggest mistake she made. It hurts but at least I know where we stand.

This is not the first time she has said that either. Imagine being with me was a bigger mistake then the A. Can't make a man feel good. I told her that last time she said that and she keeps saying it. So let her believe that and see where it gets her.

I have been watching and what I have seen is not worth much.

It may be like that song. Too much, too little, to late to ever try again.

Maybe that is where I am.

She compounded her A with more bad feelings and now I just can't think why I should stay with someone that cares so little about my emotional well being.

Heck she won't even admit that it is a possibility that she started the name calling in our famous fights. Meanwhile she has done so much name calling since the last fight it is crazy. The only thing that seems to change is my reaction to her.

I don't want to yell and scream and call her names back. So I don't but she continues, then focus' on how I started all of them.

Oh and no appologies either.

Frog,

I can hear the despair in your posts. It's really tough being where you are. Maybe just take some time to BE. Keep any R talk (pre or post A) in the MC office. Let them do their job. I can hear how the respect you once may have had for your W is lost. You must be sure that each step you take is the right one, without emotion; no anger. Only let reality steer your course. Hold on if you can.

I understand the P/A behavior, and how 'unreal' it is. I have been advised by many here as well as learned from reading that all changes in P/A take time. Don't focus on this behavior; just point it our when it occurs, be honest and tell her how it makes you feel, then walk away, let it go, move on to the next thing.

It sounds like you have decided something; I'm unsure what. Either that you feel so very little respect for your wife, that you deem her unlovable or that you cannot take the pain. Do you still love your wife? Ponder that question for as long as it takes; separate facts from emotional fiction. Take your time. Continue to fight as long as you can.

Hi FNM,

You arent buying it, are you? She was an adult, she made her choices in life. I'd REFUSE to let her put any of that on you, ever again.

Basically what she's saying is that she's always been too immature to make decisions about her life, and had gone where the wind blew her. Cant blame the wind!! Can you imagine, if she'd ended up with a less honorable man, the abuse she would have suffered since she's obviously so helpless? What has changed?

Many a woman has decided to lie in the bed they've made. I swear, I'd not leave without those children. Your W is obviously so imcompentent she'd loose them in the wind, too.

Can you get her to agree to stop the cursing and verbal abuse? Those are ground-rules the MC should have addressed by now. Has he?

Again, I am sorry. Buy her a one-way ticket to NY, but PLEASE do not leave those children!! Please be careful!! - Dru

Would you consider that every individual has a different view and that is what makes us so unique? I'm sure that you can imagine how boring life would be if we all thought the same. Can you think back to a time in which you thought her perspective was unique and remember whether you liked it or not?

Could this also be a case of wanting what you want when you want it? I would love for WH to catch up with me...I would love for it to be sooner rather than later...now am I going to get that? I'm not sure, only God knows...

I understand that this MC session hit you hard...I also understand that you have been having great MC sessions prior to this...I understand your concern...

It seems to me that my WH is full of resentment and anger...prehaps was...whether it was due to my A, I don't know...it appears to me that WH has held a grudge all these years...he has said that he doesn't hold grudges, but it seems to me if you "remind" me from time to time in a mean tone...then you have not forgiven...

I use my A as an extreme example...but sometimes it's hard to let go of anger and resentment...your FWW may not even be able to identify past anger and resentment with present anger and resentment...

Remember I had said that I thought I was fine, that the abuse that I had suffered did not affect me well I was wrong...I realized the fear that I was having with WH was in part to the fear that I had as a child...

These are all things your FWW may or may not be able to do...presently...I understand that this is difficult for you, I do...

You have been so strong...I would hate for you to give up something so beautiful before you see the beauty!

hang in there...the saying that I like these days...Let Go and Let God! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Silent,

Thanks. The unfortunate thing is it isn't dispare any longer. I am really just indifferent to her. I don't love her and I don't hate her.

I haven't said much to her since friday and you know what it isn't really bothering me. For the last 3 years we have talked about nothing. We talk but it isn't about anything really.

I have separated everything out. She is unremorseful and unrepentant for any of her actions. Her answer is simple avoid talking about it for as long as possible. When she is finally ready to talk about it she says that happened x amount of time ago. Never a resolved issue when she has hurt me or done something wrong.

So now she keeps calling and trying to initiate conversation. I don't want to talk to her. To be honest and bash me with a 2x4 but it is because that is one of her biggest EN's. I don't even want to fill them for her anymore. When I do it means nothing to her. So why bother trying anymore. I am actually looking forward to tonight because she goes to her meeting. I think that is sad.

Dru,

No she doesn't get it. The MC has even told her she shouldn't call me names. That is when he asked about the double standard. LOL.

I mean what can this poor guy say to her. She takes two sessions to discuss how I blew up at her. How she never escalated it. How she was an innocent victim. How she never started the name calling. Then boom she starts. I brought up the last time she did it and she had excuses. Well I called him them because.... That's when I said geez isn't this what I have been talking about.

He told us to stop calling names. He said if we continued he couldn't help us. Two sessions later Frog has zero name calling FWW I can't count. LOL.

But she won't even take what has happened as an eye opener to her behavior. Well I did it this time but never in the past. Oh well.

By the way she is going nowhere with the kids.

I live in So Cal. She has so many strikes against her I might be able to get full custody. If I do she will probably go back to NY but I won't pay for the ticket.

And finally even the MC asked her if she wants to stop making bad decesions or if she just wants me to live with them. She said she wanted to stop. He said why don't you start now by not calling him names and getting mad when he is hurt.

So now the flavor of the day is indifference. She called and asked me to take her to lunch. Why would I do that.

Yeah, I guess I get where you are. Ah, the fray of indifference. I felt that not long after Plan B started, and I feel it on and off. I got tired of the excuses. I get like that about other things outside of my marriage, for instance, I have a co worker who can't seem to get any relationships right, he keeps making the same mistakes or keeps believing that he doesn't have to give anymore than he has in the past; I've pointed out a number of times that you get what you give. He won't do it, so I'm indifferent to him now. He's a tool, if you ask me! I guess my WH gets lumped into that category too.