OY! What a crock! Well, you sound pretty good and strong right now. Keep us in mind when you need some place to go and let it out. Hey, this is your life, you go at whatever pace you need to feel safe. Good luck. Peace.

Yes,

I feel strong. I got the obligotory, I am lost phone call.

I came home from work because I just couldn't work.

She wants to know what I want. Mentioned that I hold all of the cards. Well at least she knows that much.

I wonder what she will think when she is struggling to make the rent and she can't buy all the stuff she likes. I bet she will blame me for that too.

Rin on weds I have to go to another office so I can't really log in.

I am not leaving the boards. It gives me a peace of mind. I mean when you see some FWS and how they act it makes you believe it is possible. Maybe not for my FWW but it is possible.

It is proof that there is a way to recover your M. I love seeing it. I know I could be like other BS' out there if my FWW was like the FWS that took ownership and tried to restore trust etc.

My peace comes from speaking my truth. A truth that can be validated with proof. Not a truth that makes me look great but the truth none the less.

She has drawn a line in the sand. She knows she is losing me. She has convinced herself she will be fine without me.

She brought up my need to see her looking her best. Like it was ridiculous. I told her I needed more but I wanted to be fair. I figured I would start with little things and then maybe ask for more when I got those. Silence on the other end.

I asked her how I should feel she could spend 3-4 hours running around for the neighbor in a day a few times a week. I can't get that. She said that was in the past and she hasn't done that for a while. I said exactly but when I ask for a few hours in a month I am asking too much. Shouldn't you have more time to do for me.

So now she is trying to weezle back in under her terms. I am sorry the MC said we needed to discuss it. I need to discuss it and if she won't then she gives me no choices.

She said she would do what the MC advised and that is why I agreed to go. Now she won't so why keep going.

I appreciate your support guys thanks a lot.

Well, I think what your FWW thinks is good to know...perhaps now is the time to show her the difference b/t fantasy and reality.

Have you considered trying to go back to al-anon once you move in with your mom? Just a question...perhaps so that you can explain to the boys...support them....

Rin,

The problem is what happened today. She has maintained that I did everything I could to get her prosecuted. In the end she didn't go to trial because I approved the plea deal. So now she resents me because between the time of the arrest and the plea deal, there were times admittedly I did want her to go to trial. So she lost one thing to be resentful for and grabbed another.

I would just like her to pick a story that can be proven out and stick too it. LOL.

The bottom line is that I didn't enforce my boundries. I waffled and figured in time she would be radically honest and start trying to save our M.

If she can't do the little things the chance of her doing the big are remote.

I really think we are too far gone. It is a shame. Our M before she decided she wanted to move back to NY was awesome. REALLY awesome.

To bad she can't remember what she used to do to make it that way.

So she forgot, I have tried to jog her memory but she seemed intent on seeing how far she could push me instead. Now that I have looked to see how far she pushed I realize it wasn't at the edge she has finally pushed me over.

I am trying to decide if I should tell her I want a D or just wait until after the holidays. I need to see a lawyer though so I can move forward after the new years.

Unless of course something dramatic happens.

***I am tired of her getting angry at my hurt. I am tired of the name calling.(she still does) I am tired of hearing she hates me, I am an idiot, she can't stand me. I am tired of every wrong doing starting and ending with me.***

frog - please don't ever forget that since the P/A stuff doesn't work as well with you now, she is ramping it up to full-blown Aggression. She is trying every way she can to provoke you into more huge fights so that she can once again be the victim.

Don't give this to her.

Keep expecting her to get worse and worse. Since you moved your buttons, she's desperately trying to find out where they are and is pushing them as hard as she can in order to provoke a reaction.

Don't give her one.
Mulan

no need anymore.

We couldn't agree to agree. LOL.

Sends me links that radical honesty isn't necessary. Sent her 3 that says it is if that's what spouse wants. The site she sent didn't say either way.

Says in one sentence she couldn't do enough and she knows she didn't handle things right because of her alcholism. But then says she won't do it now.

More DJ's then when I say something she doesn't like oh who cares.

We agreed to get a D after the holidays.

Frog- I can hear your frustration and I just want to let you know that I will support you not matter what you want.

Are you going to start dividing your finances now in preparation? How much time b/f she gets lifetime alimony? I know that you have been concerned about that is the reason why I asked.

I look forward to hearing from you. You take really good care of yourself...I still haven't seen what you have been doing for yourself...I may have missed it...

As long as you feel that you have done the best that you can...

Take care...knowing that you are great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Have a good weekend!

Next June would have been our 10 year anniversary and that is when we would be considered a long term M. So no worries there.

I have done the best I could. I know that.

Last night after she said maybe we should just go our separate ways and I agreed she started to go right back into her routine.

I told her yes I do want a D. I asked for a few things. No communication between us unless it is about our finances or our children, or something pertaining to our family that is essential we communicate. I asked her to and I committed to not making the next few months until after the holidays uncomfortable for the children. I asked her not to date until I move out. She said fine.

She comes over an hour later and asks me about dinner. I told her no thank you. She said what so you don't want me to do things for you? I said even though I am very calm and I realize now a D is the best thing it doesn't mean it doesn't upset me. I have a hard time eating when I am this upset. So we parted ways I went to the batting cages she went to a meeting.

On the way home from her meeting she calls and asks if we want fast food. I told her we already ate. She wanted to keep talking I said see you when you get home.

This morning she asks me again if I really wanted a D. I said yes I do. I told her she was absolutely right that we both deserve to be happy and I am not. She said she was willing to try some more. I said that is not possible anylonger. I said I am absolutely tired of hearing you say that we have been over something a million times. If you really believe that straight out lying, lying through ommission or not dealing in truths is going over something over and over again then fine. All that has said to me is you don't regret the pain you have caused with all of the times you went over it and weren't honest. So far you have said you were trying but being honest doesn't take effort. You shouldn't even have to try to be honest. So if that is you trying I don't want it.

I agree 100% we shouldn't have gone over it this many times. I agree 100% this should have been put to rest long ago. I don't agree that you had a right to be dishonest. I will no longer stay in this dynamic where you know what the right thing to do is and refuse to do it then say you have done it. That is insulting and I will not have you insult me any longer. You told me either you would have moved on or D'd me if you couldn't move past it by now. You said you wouldn't move past it if you knew I was dishonest. So for once I am going to be your equal and just do what you would do.

I can't believe how good I feel right now. It is like there has been a weight lifted off of my shoulders that I have been carrying for so long now. I realize not talking to her really feels good. I know that sounds bad but that is how I feel.

The fact of the matter is I am tired of talking to her about right and wrong. Many of the things she has done are wrong but she refuses to admit that. So I am no longer sitting down with someone that has a skewed view of the universe and trying to explain that the universe doesn't revolve around her.

I told her over 3 years ago what I would need from her to forgive and move forward. She decided 3 years ago she had a better way to do it. So I think if she could have even thought for one moment I might have been right things would have been much better. I guess she thought she knew a better way that hasn't worked for me.

Well she must think I am joking she just sent me this email this morning.

Read it carefully especially the part about honesty and trust. Then read her part about not going over the past again. The MC suggested we talk about it. LOL.

I am not responding to this so don't worry.

I almost fell off my chair about deciding to forgive her instead of her earning my forgiveness.

I don't know what part she doesn't understand that all the times she lied to me are not going over it. LOL. Should I not be a little iritated she says she has gone over it so many times and they were lies. LOL.

Ok so now we see what I have been up against. She will not compromise to save this M. She considers being honest a compromise. I do not.

I know I should let it go but you know what the bottom line is that my FWW wouldn't admit it was wrong unless I had the proof. All of the things that have happened since the A are a slap in the face now that I know this truth.

I would bet at this point she has done a lot more damage since she had the A that the truth will expose. Kinda dug a hole for herself. Not going to throw her a rope.

She has her universe where wrong is right if it is in her best interest. Forget about what the rest of the planet says.

It does sound like your FWW reeeeeally does not want to deal with what has passed between the two of you, even though I KNOW you have told her that you need to know the truth and always have the truth in order to heal. It does sound like P/A behavior.




Is she saying, 'we can be together, as long as you don't bring up the past and try to open my eyes to something; I'm tired of explaining myself; that's in the past, let's leave that there and move forward; you may have a need here that I'm not going to fulfill, that's just how it is'?



'So, you are really the one holding our progress back by your refusal to drop this and move forward'? Is this projecting the blame for D on you?

Just from my perspective, that's what I see when I read this.

It's funny, many 'outsiders' (those not affected by an A) reading this would say, well, look, she's extending an olive branch; little do they know where she is aiming!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess you two do have some time together during the next few months. Do you have any want to reconcile at this point? I haven't heard anyone point blank ask you.

Does there have to be a slight change in FWW's behavior or a MAJOR shift in order for you to consider trying again. I see that it has been three years, and I understand hitting your limit. I just see couples (like you two) who are still toughing it out, living together, going to counseling, and I can't help but root for their survival. I support whatever decisions and actions you come to.

frog, you are still trying to reason with her as though she was a normal person instead of calling her on her P/A behaviour. Everything she is doing and saying is classic, hardcore P/A.

Why are you trying to reason with her and expecting her to understand, instead of calling her on it and then walking away?

The only effect your reasoning and explaining has is to give her perfect opportunities to defeat and sabotage you, which is exactly what she is doing at every turn.

And then, of course, you are upset over being defeated and sabotaged again, so she gets what she really wants - to be the victim of your anger and disgust.

You know how to deal with P/A behaviour. Why are you playing right into her hands instead?
Mulan

Mulan,

Yes I understand what you are saying. I am walking away from it.

I am getting the ducks in a row right now.

I have realized I cannot keep banging my head against the wall here.

I know she wants to be the victim of my anger and disgust. I refuse to act that way toward her.

Like you said I moved the buttons. But I am personally committed to not doing this anymore.

I am not reasoning with her. I have stated my truth. That's all I needed to do.

She knows my truth and that is good enough. She doesn't have to agree or like it.

Little update.

So really no talking in the Frog household. I told her last week the guidelines for communicating with me until the D.

She tried the usual which is to call me and email me and I pretty much didn't answer to either communication.

On Friday she stepped it up a notch and called the MC and he wants to see us separately. Which is fine maybe I will get to talk without interuption this week. LOL.

So she has tried to get back into the same broken dynamic and I won't.

So she today she asked if I just wanted to start the D now. I said no I would prefer to wait until after the holidays. She said it was Stressful on her now. I said if you feel that way you can start. She told me I should. I said I will after the holidays. She said well it is too stressful on her right now. I said well I can't leave until we have an LSA she said well you could but you won't. No I won't because it could hurt me in a custody hearing. LOL. Finally she said it is stressful for her like this. I said if this is stressful could you imagine how stressful it will be when we are trying to get separated. I do not feel like fighting over custody etc during the holidays.

She said it was stressful again. I said then feel free to get a lawyer and start the proceedings. It is not uncomfortable for me right now. Heck I feel more comfortable now then I have in years. LOL.

I said if I were really that uncomfortable I would get a lawyer.

She also enlisted the help of my sister. I have lunch with my sister on Tuesday to ask her to stay out. She believes an M should be saved no matter what even though she has had a D herself.

So today I feel great. I can't remember the last time I have felt so good and centered. Not talking means I don't have to get sucked in anymore.

Thank you all for your help. I know I shouldn't be thinking about a D but it really doesn't make sense to stay anymore when this relationship is so toxic to me.

You are certainly allowed to feel whatever it is that is within you. If you feel that you need to move to a D in order to move on, then that is a choice for you. We are here to support you. None of us live in your situation.

If your wife wants to stay together then she needs to put herself out there and tell you, not pass notes in class through your sister. She is grown AND is living under the same roof with you. She needs to put into action CHANGE. I only see her not wanting to do the work, to not have to start the H311 of divorce. If M is what she wants, then it's time to 'ACT' that way. You have stated your needs for M recovery. She has not been able, for some reason, to do the work.

So, let me get one more thing clear in my mind, she thinks things are JUST NOW stressful, because the big, ugly, D word is out there. It certainly sounds, from this end, like things have been stressful for quite some time now.

Silent,

Yes she things now is stressfull. Because I am no longer indulging her needs in spite of the fact mine were not being met. I can see when I am not getting drawn into conversations with her about day to day stuff which she NEEDS to talk about she doesn't like it.

Now I must say we had an interesting conversation today that may lead me to believe that she will do the work. I am in no way shape or form convinced and I will not make the same mistakes I have made in the past and jump in and expect her to continue. Usually when this happens she makes the change and then as soon as I am back the progress stops. So now I am gaurded.

Tonight I go see the MC alone because of all of this. I am now starting to think that this should have happened long ago since I don't really get to talk in the MC session.

Anyway she called me and asked me to come meet her. This morning she started talking about how her telling me the truth is not going to help anymore. She has done it already.

I went to address my side on that and she interupted and changed the topic to another thing I did wrong. This happened 7 times until I asked her if I could answer without interruption and without the topic changing. So I started to talk and she interrupted me. I told her I was done being interupted. Stopped the convo.

So then she asks for me to come meet her. I started to make a DJ but stopped myself. She asked what I was going to say. I said it wasn't right so I stopped myself. She recinded her request for me to come meet her. I said so let me get this right I realized what I was going to say was wrong and now you want to not meet. Yes. OK fine. Trying to be a better person here but I guess you don't see that.

So we talked and she actually listened and addressed what I was talking about, in most cases.

She said she appologizes and it isn't good enough. She told me how she made ammends and I still don't give her credit. I said since you have made amends you have blown it all up. Everything you said that day you have since contridicted.

She said like what. I said you admitted you weren't a good W while you were drinking then said we had a bad M and It was my fault. Which do I believe. If you werent' a good W then maybe you had something to do with it.

I gave her the bottom line. You don't seem like you will ever look at me and be happy. She said I don't need you to make me happy. I said but wouldn't it be nice if I was a source of happiness. The way I look at it you still look at being with me as a mistake. Tired of being that. If you can't look at what I do and get some happiness from that without the resentment of being stuck here I don't want you anymore. I am tired of being your captor and your best friend.

WOW, Frog...Sounds like I've heard all this before...perhaps different people and different words...but the same...

I'm wishing you all the luck, blessing, and wisdom to get you through!

I'm your cheerleader like I have been...LMao...what's your favorite colors for the cheerleading uniform? I'm not one on short uniforms that show everything off, okay...LOL

Are you dressing up for Halloween? F and I are dressing up as biker's...LOL...since it's easy!

Frog,

You are doing just what you need to in order to facilitate discussions. Not being able to get a word in edgewise can be a convo breaker. I know, I tend to be the one interrupting! I'm a pain in the A$$ sometimes, but I have learned to shut myself up and listen, and then think, and THEN speak. If I can learn this, well, I think anyone can. It's disrespectful to NOT listen when someone is just trying to explain their thought process. It's rude!

You sound strong, you sound good! You sound, above all, reasonable in your needs and requests to be heard. The fact that you said,



Shows that you are not inflexible or unwilling to do the work, but you know that progress will not be made when attempting this ALONE.

Rin,

No I am not dressing up.

I have heard it all before too. I think even though she says she will be better if this is all behind her she knows it will be very uncomfortable for her.

Silent,

I feel very strong. I feel as though I KNOW WHAT I NEED to offer forgiviness. I am not inflexible. She thinks I am. I am done tip toeing around these things.

I told her today that she cannot make amends to me and then say a whole bunch of things to contridict it and expect me to believe the amends.

I dropped a bomb on her today that she never knew. I almost had our M annuled after our honeymoon. She had dated some guy and I really didn't care, because it was before me. I asked if she had ever been with him and she said no. I thought the guy was crazy because he was trying to get her to leave me for him. She stayed in contact with him and even wanted to invite him to our wedding.

On our honeymoon she told me she had slept with him. She brought it up by telling me how well endowed he was. Double whammy. On our honeymoon. I think I mentioned that didn't I. LOL. Nothing like feeling inadaquet on your honeymoon. She said what difference did it make. I said how would you feel if on our honeymoon you found out I was with a women I wanted to invite to our wedding and I had stayed in contact with her. Sounds like an EA to me but I didn't even bring that up. Him asking her to marry him instead of me. What if I brought it up by saying how well comparing privates between the both of you and you were um less.... well you get the point.

Heck I wanted to jump off the boat and swim to shore. Now if I can forgive you of that how do you now say I am unforgiving and I just want to punish you. I said think about that while you are casting judgements about my ability to forgive. Because again IMVHO she was having an EA while we were engaged.

To bad I didn't realize it then. LOL.

So today she actually started to engage me without interuption. She actually started saying she would be pissed. Most importantly she has admitted what I admitted that my heart is heardned to her. That for different reasons hers is to me as well. She admitted that she sees that she doesn't treat me as well as she treats others. She admitted a lot. But I have to wonder if that is because I actually get to tell my side to the MC today without her interupting me. I have to wonder if it is so when she goes on Weds she can say see I finally did it and it is not enough.

WE shall see but right now I am still tired of it.

Funny part. Imagine I have not had SF for a while now. Last night I must have been pawing at her in my sleep. She said she kept pushing me away all night. I was in the middle of another dream, I don't know if I was talking or what but she started a convo and I just about jumped out of my shorts. She said I thought you were awake. You wouldn't leave me alone last night. I said I didn't do anything she said you were all over me, I had to keep pushing you away. LOL. OOPS. The funny thing is she sounds frustrated about it.

YEEEEEEOUCH!!! What a horrendous start to a marriage! Hey babe, guess what, let's talk about the past relationship that I had with this cling-on! Oh, his member is quite large too! Whatev! How dare she! I guess the statement was probably met with shock, dismay. It's easy to say that i would have drop kicked her across the ocean, but I wasn't there. I certainly have heard a number of horrendous things from my WH about myself since his A.

Oh, about that frustration, you haven't had SF, so I would assume FWW has not had SF either? I know I'm not too happy about my new found chastity, so I can understand the frustration. H311, you could have been dreaming that you were some jungle cat, pawing at her, who knows, maybe she's the prey! Are you starting the dream about your EN's?

Hi, Frog...

What I was trying to say is that you sitch right now sounds exactly like mine...and our S are alot alike it seems...I can see a big difference in Dh...A BIG DIFFERENCE...

The first thing I noticed was that he started listening to me...then bam...I said that I was done...I wanted out and there was nothing that he could do or say to change my mind and it was true...

This is what I'm seeing in your sitch...I think I see the two of you at the beginning of that path...

Also, I wanted to ask you "are you still reading Getting the love that you want?" I was just reading in it that most M couples stop going to MC on the third or fourth session...do you know what part I'm referring to...I think that you are a little forth into your sessions but are still dealing with the old brain and are working toward dealing with the new brain...

well, You are working with new brain...

You know I'm hear...I'm reading and I'm listening...i really see some positive things happening...stuff I don't think I've seen before with your sitch...just wanted to let you know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />