Ok so I was looking for the book. My fWW has it on her all the time. Need a second copy.

I think people stop going to MC because one of the partners doesn't like what they are hearing. Or it seems to hard to keep going.

I just posted on your thread about the thing with our FWS' and the D thing. LOL.

I am tired of going now because she won't let me speak. Lets face it we had an assignment from the book. She did her side first. I sat through 30-45 minutes of my negatives. Hard to hear but I did. Then when it was my turn boom. I didn't even get through the first part of the three parts I was supposed to discuss.

Why keep going when you see the other person not being honest.

What is positive is that when she is backed against the wall she wants a fight. Now that there is no fight it is just as simple as a D then she changes gears a little.

I will say it again getting to here took way to much energy. I will not put anymore energy into this project if there isn't a return at some point.

She resents me for being here. That is fine. If she cannot let go of that then there is no future.

She needs to start thinking for one minute that maybe her life would be much worse if she never met me. Or it wouldn't be as good. Her spin is it would have been better. I am not going to be the consolation prize in her life. The captor or the person she treats badly so she can treat everyone else kindly.

I told her I think she would be better off without me as long as she keeps me as the object of her misery.

So we shall see. I see the MC today so it should be interesting.

I'm thinking about you I really am...I completely understand about the O&H thing...I'm so thrilled to be getting a little backed by reactions that are honest also.

Do you know what I'm talking about there? well, I did think about how the PA behavior is related to the fear of abandonment...I think that it goes a long way when you say "Hey, I want a D and there's nothing you can do about it!"

Not like I pulled this card as part of a game and so far I'm glad that it worked in my favor but I just got to the point that you are at...enough is enough...I don't HAVE to live like this...I can do bad on my own...LOL

I'm telling you...if it wasn't for those stop signs...DH would be served right now...

Rin,

I know what you are saying. Knowing that my FWW has had no problem opening her mouth for so long and what comes out is the farthest thing from the truth. Not that she lies all the time but she will avoid answering and throw out justifications.

Couldn't believe when she said yes I admit I did start the escalation of some of those fights. I didn't handle it well all the time. My mind was twisted I didn't know how to deal with it. I used a defense mechanism. Much different then no you started all of the fights.

I didn't use the D as a game either. I was just done with it. You are right I can do bad on my own. I don't need someone to help with that.

She might actually see that I will forgive but she needs to do her part. Heck she admitted she wouldn't have done a lot of the things after the fact if I knew what she did. So it is progress but I am going to stay with my plan until I really believe this isn't just a way to keep the status quo. I need for this to change. I cannot live within this M happily without that change.

Ok now I am confused but what can I do.

Went to MC last night alone. It was kinda wierd that I could just sit down and talk.

He asked why I came to the conclusion I wanted a D.

So we went over it. I told him my FWW keeps saying she is a conflict avoider which isn't true. A few weeks ago he asked the FWW if I act the way I do to her in public. She said no except for one incident when someone was disrespectful to her. I told him about the physical fights my FWW has had where she didn't avoid the conflict she freely engaged and didn't back down. I told him how she is the one that is embarassing in public. I told him how everyone will tell you that my FWW always stands up for herself. Went over her confronting the cashier at the grocery store and the team mom. I told him she is a conflict avoider when she is wrong. In other words I did something wrong lets sweep it under the rug. If someone wrongs her she is the first to stand up.

Went over the whole thing with the arrest. How I didn't try to have her prosocuted(sp). I told him that finally she said yes I didn't do that in the end. But then she flipped it to between the arrest and the point I helped her I did tell her I was going to. So I felt like I should address to her why. Two reasons, I found out she had been speaking with a lawyer in NY for 5 or six months and more details of the A slipped out of my kids. I think anyone might understand my position at that point. Why help someone that is plotting behind your back with a lawyer. He aske how I found out. Told him when I answered the phone I kept getting hang ups. *69 call them back and then looked at the phone bill. OH.

I said so you see she likes to point to my wrong doing as though it is a solitary thing regardless of what she was doing.

Then we discussed the A thing. He said that it probably isn't a good thing to discuss it. He said normally he goes over the past but we can't do that. I said I agree. I told him the reason it was important to me is that she used the fact I didn't have the details against me. I said now I am just getting really angry that she keeps saying she has gone over it a million times. Now I will agree to disagree on it but the fact is the fact she took 3 years to be honest with me and has only gone over it once. He asked if I could let it go. I said sure. At this point what difference does it make. I told him she even said that if she would have told me the truth a lot of the things we talk about now in MC wouldn't have happened. That is what is so bothersome. She was adding insult to injury because she felt comfortable being dishonest.

So he said our M isn't toxic and thinks it can be saved. I told him not if she continues to interupt me and call me names.

He agreed she shouldn't do that. Especially since that was one of her biggest complaints about me. I told him how I brought it to her attention I havne't called her one name for at least 4 months.

I also told him about How I used an I statement about her calling me an idiot and telling me she hated me. When I told him she kept saying well don't you want me to be honest in MC. He said so you were to believe she was honest about you being an idiot and she hated you. I said that's what I took from it.

So I figured what the heck keep the time line but try.

So last night I told FWW what we talked about. I said I am willing to do that and try but you need to decide if you can move on too. If you can't get over the fact I didn't move back to NY then it isn't worth trying. She said she would have to think about that.

I said well you let me know because until you can decide you really can't be a good W to me. She disagreed. I said if you resent me you can only do so much. I said you can always do more for someone you don't resent.

This morning she told me she thinks I am a good man and she hoped I thought she was a good woman. I said I have been trying to tell you I do. Just not to me. The whole world can love you and the whole world can love me but if when we walk through this door we aren't nice to each other that is what is important.

She asked me for some concessions. Stop smoking. No Adult Content in the home. When she asked about the Adult content I said done. She liked it before but doesn't now and that is good enough for me. I said I would quit smoking too.

Then I said now here is what I want. No name calling from you for any reason. No interupting me.

She said ok.

I am not optimistic about this but I will try.

I don't think my FWW will ever forgive me for being stuck here. You think at some point she could forgive me for a mistake she made. So far no.

But there we are. I guess the fact I am ready for a D has made her think.

She is happy because she thinks the MC finally convinced you to sweep the affair under the rug and "move on".

Nothing else has happened here, frog.
Mulan

Hey, sounds like a little team work there. It may not be fireworks, but there is something to be said about discussing, rationally, how to treat one another in order to begin the tough work of recovery.

This is positive. You don't really need to think so far into the future, just today.

AND... Quit smoking, it's great, I did it, cold turkey! You've got kids who need you healthy, as well as happy. That cigarrette is a neuce! Write down all of the reasons for quitting, then in another column write down the reasons to continue; I'll bet you don't really have any good reasons to continue the habit...Good luck!

Mulan,

You know that is exactly what I thought too about sweeping it under the rug. Then he asked me what more do I want to know and I really couldn't come up with anything. The heart of it was now I know enough to stop the lying to the MC and everyone else. It is what it is at this point. I can live in that spot forever or move on. I also realized that the other thing that bothered me was her contention she has gone over this a million times. Now I realize that it was splitting hairs. We were both right. We had but we hadn't. We can end our M because of that or we can move forward.

Silent,

Only took 3 years and the certainty of a D. Yes I need to quit smoking and now I will. lOL. No list needed.

I think the main thing is conversation without hostility. The fact that she has started to take ownership also helps. I forgot one more thing.

I can tell she is reluctant but I can tell you that this morning she understood I wasn't going to live within a double standard.

She brought up the past and I said that isn't ok. If you want me to change and work on today, tomorrow and the rest of our lives without talking about the past you need to do the same.

I told her forgive and move on or don't. I said realize that you bring up the past more then I. Even in MC she brought up the A in context of me asking about it but wouldn't let me address why. Not fair. If you don't want to hear my side then don't bring it up.

I told her I am actually willing to discuss what I do wrong and what I have done wrong but not if no matter what I say she won't even consider my POV. No sense in talking if it is only to make her feel better about herself.

So again we will see. I am not really that optomistic about it.

She wouldn't even consider that staying in NY instead of coming here that her life might have been worse. When I told her to think that for one minute she said well it doesn't matter I can think it but doesn't mean I will believe it. So she can believe it would be much better but not much worse. So if this is going to be held against me then so be it.

I feel great at this point I feel as though I have forgiven her. I feel like I can forgive myself.

I also feel like if we go to MC now that he has heard my side the perception has changed.

Again I feel good about myself and my decesions.

4 months and no name calling or escalation on my part. That is progress.

Right now, you are ahead of her in the journey, you have become much more self-aware, hence the act of no name calling or escalation. WW sounds like she has some ground to cover on her own right now. Even though progress is excruciatingly slow, there is progress, right?

I really have taken to the one-day-at-a-time routine. You seem to be handling things well, and feel confident about your boundaries and stance. I do understand that you will believe it when you see it; I think everyone here agrees with that. It's never wasted time if there is growth, whether that is self-growth or marital recovery, or both.

Hey, I know it sounds crazy, but you're a lucky dog right now. Your fWW is still in the home, and showing signs of progress. No matter how long it took to get here, you're here, and that's good.

Silent,

I know I am ahead of her. That was caused by a crud load of soul searching and work.

I will believe it not just when I see it but when I see it as a consistent pattern of behavior on her part.

I have misled myself into thinking sometimes it changed because I wanted to see the change.

My boundries are no longer flexible when it comes to certain things. I am enforcing them consitently. I realize that can just be a reminder I won't be interupted every time she does it.

I am doing that now. I will not back down on it either.

The other thing I realized about the interupting it also means she hasn't even had time to process what I said. She hadn't even thought about what I said.

In other words she was never going to see my POV because she didn't listen to it.

She is at the MC now I am just wondering what she is going to be like when she gets home.

So she went to MC alone last night. It is almost killing me to know what happened.

When I went alone we discussed just about everything that was said.

When I asked her about her appt she barely had anything to say about it.

I think the MC straightened her out a little on her view of the universe.

The reason I say that is if he agreed with her on something she would have told me. That is what she has done in the past. Even the MC said........ I know they talked about the A and what has happened since then but she didn't mention it.

I am glad I went first that way he heard my POV before he got hers.

She usually comes home on a pretty high horse if she got agreement from the MC. Last night she was contrite.

What is funny is he says we don't have a horrible M. It is very salvagable. We just need to communicate better.

She told him about the changes and how I am going to quit smoking and how we got rid of the porn. Yes I know everyones view of porn. My FWW actually used to like it and suggested watching it but now she doesn't like it. When I say she suggested it I mean she would say "hey lets put a movie in" Now she doesn't like it so I threw it all away right when she asked. To be completely honest I was getting bored of it anyway. LOL. So it wasn't a big deal to me.

But now she needs to make her changes. Which I am sure they spoke about. Her name calling which he witnessed. The inturupting which leads to no communication. The double standards in the M. I am sure she tried to back slide and say at times I infer she is stupid by the way I talk but that won't fly with him.

So I am glad I asked for a D. I think for once she realized I have always wanted to save this M but I don't need to be with her. That if push comes to shove I will walk away.

So now we have to start IC. Gonna find one. This crud is expensive though. LOL.

I can totally understand where you are with needing the consistency. That is where I faltered in my Plan A. I think 'doormat' comes to mind. Toward the end, when I began really to enforce boundaries, he faltered. It was a clear sign that this would not work at his current state of mind. I am no longer willing to put forth the efforts without some form of reciprocation. It wasn't there, and I allowed that to be a part of my life.

Practice makes perfect, or close enough to it, right?

Oy, I feel for you with the IC. I haven't really vested myself in counseling as of yet, but will consider it if I feel that I am not maturing through this situation. I am certainly no longer in an obsessive state over my WH, or hope for marital recovery. I'm much more concerned about my DS and myself now, and I feel growth there.

Silent,

Yes Doormat comes to mind. I have realized, painfully so, that I could have done things differently as well over these last 3 years.

Most importantly I really think I should have stuck to my time frames.

I think the problem before is she really, really believed what she was saying. Now with a third party she can't say something that isn't true or right without being challenged.

I really think the MC told her last night her dishonesty has really hurt this M. That she may not have wanted to talk about it but her saying she did and continuing down that road will kill our M.

I am pretty darn sure that he also told her how lucky she is.

I don't believe practice makes perfect. I have told my YS who I help with baseball. Perfect Practice makes perfect. Practicing something the wrong way actually makes you worse. LOL.

Thanks for checking in.

Wow FNM, I'm really happy for you. Counselling really helped us out but we stopped too early and the wheels came off a week or so ago; maybe I'll start a new thread today. If counselling is working and making progress (which it definitely looks like here!) stick with it until you're 1000% sure.

Wow FNM, I'm really happy for you. Counselling really helped us out but we stopped too early and the wheels came off a week or so ago; maybe I'll start a new thread today. If counselling is working and making progress (which it definitely looks like here!) stick with it until you're 1000% sure.

Normal,

Thanks for checking in. I think it is helping and I think one of the reasons is I am resolved this time.

I am ready to leave this M. When discussing the MC it was that or a D. Now again it will continue or a D. Not as a threat but as a reality. We need help. So until I feel comfortable that we can resolve issues and work together it is necessary.

I think the best thing for me is that she now understands she can have it her way and end up D'd or we can work together and stay M'd.

FNM,

Update from me - hopefully this will happen for you soon.

I had to get to that point you are at, before WH "got it" I just told him - "No plan B, No point."

"Unless yopu do some work that is not destructive to this marriage - I am done - the end of my rope - it is over".

He is working on things and the P/A is about very small things now - about once a week or less, and when he does it and I call him on it, we have resolution within hours, not days or weeks as he used to cause. No more compounding P/A with further P/A actions.

Sadly I am still numb to him - detachment was necessary big time - that is the downfall of it taking sooooooo long for a P/A to get to a place where they cannot deny or distract anymore from their own actions. It has that effect of eroding love. But I found that the only way to get through to them is to stay with them and WORK. Maybe once he is on an even keel, if he strays etc again, then I will do a Plan B. But it is a long way off to the point where that might work. Hopefully I will never have to do it.

Linda

well
since you claim to know "everyone's view of porn" ... I want to make sure you know mine ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

porn is deliberate anti-intimacy behavior

that's MY view in a nutshell

Pep

soooooo

your wife no longer "liking" porn

is a very good sign

Pep

Well unfortunatly it looks like we are going to get a D.

Fighting again since Friday and I just am done and so is she.

MC probably would have worked a long time ago but now it just seems useless.

I honestly believe there is just too much water under the bridge to recover this M.

I know I have done a lot of wrong things. But I am just tired of it.

OH AND BY THE WAY WITH ALL OF THE STRESS I STILL HAVEN'T SMOKED.

Sorry for the interuption. It just seems to me that when we talk and disagree she lashes out at me.

I am really tired of it. It wouldn't even bother me that much because my view of it was heck you get mad sometimes and say things that are wrong. She focused on those fights as me being horrible.

I can't believe how much energy it takes just for her to realize maybe she called me some names first. Maybe she escated some of these fights.

I mean I can't believe I have done this.

I am her enemy. She has not really done a damn thing to help me through this. She purposely held on to things because they bothered me. Now she says I am a good person who has done bad things.

WHAT I HAVE REALIZED IS THAT IF I STAY WITH HER UNDER HER TERMS AND THE WAY SHE HAS TREATED ME I WILL NEVER BE AN EQUAL TO HER AND I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO RESPECT MYSELF.

Heck we got a newer car. Before we bought it she said I could have the new car. When we were negotiating it was more then I wanted to spend. She promised to do some things that she hasn't. Told her I want the car. She came after me and told me I couldn't have it.

WTF I make more. She didn't live up to her end and she is telling me she is keeping it.

I took it. I told her tonight I am going to bury her in Child custody. She can bring her little poly anna attitude in. Gonna get a good lawyer and make her do her little angry outburst act on the stand. She will she can't help herself.

Time to get all the info back together.

Well thanks everyone.

And yes PEP I understand your view. Like I said she asked one time and it was gone..... To bad I have never rated that high with her. If I asked her it would have taken 2 years and a lot of fights.

Good night all.

Okay. You are where you are. Don't LB, DJ and so on BUT at the same time its time for your attorney to be the HEAVY. Anything that happens from now on is the result of her selfishness and it will be what it will be. I would stand for nothing less than full custody (or at least primary), more than my fair share of the assets, no alimony under any circumstances (let her OM support her), no overnights by anyone of opposite sex and not related, may want to have her take a mental examination, check out the OM, his past, his character, morals, values, name him in the divorce based on Adultery if she is still seeing him.

You have done all you can do, now protect yourself and your boys and let God have her.