So this is unreliable information > This guy is divorced about 8 months ago and said that "his wife felt the same way about him".

Walt - people in affairs are liars. Period.

Further, people in affairs lie to each other at least as much as they lie to their spouses.

Assume this information about the OM (other man) is inaccurate.

Put some effort into identifying him - without using your wife. Your goal - find out if he's really divorced. If not, you should plan to expose the inappropriate relationship to his wife.

WAT

Walt this qoute is very true. My WW would not admit to exactly when her affair started, she only goes to a date that I can definitely verify. An affair by its very nature is about dishonest, deception and disorientation. Don't believe anything unless you can independently verify.

I'll do as much homework as possible. Thanks for the advice.

If I may suggest, do a reverse phone lookup or contact any cop buddies you may have. They can trace the number and find out who the guy is.

The 180 is key. Reverse babble is key.

Be strong. Weakness is extremely unappealing to a WS. Keep doing the things that she says "it's too late" for you to do.

good luck.

Trust us when we tell you, this is not the woman you married. I heard over and over again that myspace was simply a way to make friends. Nothing more. That I was crazy for digging and that I wouldn't find anything if I did because she hadn't done anything. Nothing could have been further from the truth.

Well, yesterday was a good day.

On Sunday, my 14 year old daughter heard us talking. She got upset and we talked later when the wife was at work. I told my wife she knew, and I also told my mother that day. I think my daughter's reaction and the reality of what my wife was suggesting hit her square in the jaw.

She called me talking about how I did my things an finally she started to do her own things and we grew apart. We talked about selling our second home so she could work a little less and be more involved with the kids at school and spend more time with them instead of being so tired. We talked about paying off debt and doing nothing for a while except focusing on family.

It was a good conversation. I know the crisis is not over, but this is certainly a turning point. I'm not crowding her... I'm doing the 180. Matter of fact, right before we started talking about this, I told her that she's going to have to do what she has to do for herself, and that I'm going to do the same for me. I told I had alot of good years together, but if she wants to go, then I can't stop her.

I look at this as just the beginning of a long healing process, but a beginning with hope. I still will be on guard for suspicious behavior, and I'm also keeping my permanent changes. I did tell her that these changes are permanent and that she gave me a huge wakeup call (as suggested).

One big thing is pulling back emotionally. Don't show the affection that she's come to expect.

I still think there's a strong chance she either did have or is having an affair.

My situation involved a one night encounter. She didn't have intercourse with the guy, but they did just about everything else. That was the one night she was unfaithful, but you can also count the "dates" she had with a bunch of other men. Those involved a meal or a coffee. Too much, in my opinion, for a married woman to do.

She may be toeing the line or may have crossed it. Don't believe her when she says she didn't do anything. Don't accuse her either, but just be on the lookout.

Papa, please be careful with these suggestions.

Being a bit aloof may be an effective thing for a BS in Plan A to do - once the WS's ENs are being effectively filled. I think it's contrary advice to withdraw ENs in a recently started Plan A.

The 180 is best implemented, IMHO, when the abrupt changes are elimination of bad behaviors, i.e., the ceasing of love busters. This lines it up perfectly with Plan A. Abruptly changing good behaviors will certinaly get the WS's attention - and feed the justifications for why the affair is a good thing.

JMHO

WAT

Well, I tried a 180 and I actually got somewhat of a response. She said "I wish I met you today" and that she's still got no feelings for me at all. She keeps saying that I "deserve better". I hate when she says that. We went away for a long weekend with her parents and had a blast at our vacation home. She said "we need to use this place more often" and other little things. I dressed very nicely for dinner and she actually started crying. I asked her why and she said that she wished I did this a long time ago and that it's too late.

She keeps saying we're completely incompatible, however, we ski together and we started learning and playing golf together. She said "that's just recently though". She's very stuck in the past and can't let it go. It seems like she actually gets upset that I'm making all these positive changes. I asked her if she had a fun weekend, she said (after the weekend was over) that the whole time she couldn't wait for it to be over so we could go home, yet she was laughing and having fun. I even got several hugs when we went out. I definately sparked something, but it's like she's DEFYING giving into it. It's just so strange. Now she walks around sighing all the time.

I did lose my temper last night and I'm very disappointed in myself about that. I just got VERY frustrated when she said that she just "doesn't feel anything toward me".

She has individual counseling tonight to address holding on to the past. She's got issues with my daughter as well, sort of blaming her since we had her before marriage and her presence in the world had alot to do with us getting married... but we're SOOOO far past that.

I'm giving her some space and working on myself, but it ain't easy!

She still feels trapped and knows how difficult her life would be if she left. I really have nothing to say to that. I wish she could find happiness in raising a family at least while we work on "us".

Any thoughts...?

Walt, this is called rewriting marital history. Another one of those things that waywards somehow learn by osmosis. As example, when my RWW was in her A I remember that she made a big deal about how I never took her dancing anymore. Problem was I never took her dancing before then either. She liked dancing and used my lack of taking her to rationalize why that her affair started on a dance floor on a trip that was supposed to be to support one of her family members. Point is that somehow, the brain kicks in all this revisionism I think more than anything else to help them rationalize what they know deep down is wrong.

Best solution for rewriting marital history is to learn reverse babble really well. I am not a super big fan of the 180 and although it works well under certain circumstances my read is that is has worked the best only after a really good Plan A and just before a Plan B implementation.

Good Luck.

NT

Good work. Repeat your mantra everytime she remarks how it's "too late." This excuse is straight from the WS script. They all say it in response to effective Plan As. They HAVE to. The goos news here is that she recognizes the improvements.

So, any new intel on OM?

Please remind us what her parents know about the affair.

WAT

I have heard this a million times. My canned answer was "If I deserve better why don't you give it to me?" "I don't want anyone else in this world just you!!"

The rewriting of history is standard fair. My FWW said one of her reasons was I didn't ask her how her day was. She was absolutely 100% I never asked her how her day was. She called me 3-9 times a day and I called her everyday when I left work. She did most of the talking. When I got home I KNEW HOW HER DAY WAS. LOL. We still talked when I got home too. Now what I said was "what's up, what's going on" Hard to ask someone how their day was at 9am. LOL.

The FWS or WS will find reasons the M is over to justify what they are doing. That's all there is to it.

Imagine this:
I have a wonderful H. He does all of these nice things for me. He has some faults but who doesn't? In reality the good outweighs the bad. We do need to do some work on our M but I am just as responsible as he is, maybe a little less maybe a little more. So I am having an A and am ready to leave him and our life because of this.

What I did is I took all of her justifications and let them just sit for a while. Then without rewriting the past in my favor I asked her how we could change them.

Come to find out she was more responsible for a lot of her justifications then I was.

But in the end I can hold my head up high. There were two people in this M that may or may not have been the best. Only one of us chose an A. The other chose to remain faithful and try to work on the M to make it better.

There have been no signs of contact with this OM. Trust me, I'm sniffig like a blood hound. SHe is going out with a friend tomorrow night. I'm trying to figure out how I can spy without going there. Any thoughts? Her parents know everything I have posted in the past, which is all I know as well. I really don't think she's still communicating with this guy... if she is, she's VERY good at hiding it!

My waist line is down almost 10 inches from what it was 2 years ago... actually, it's down about 6 in the past couple months. I feel healthier than ever before! I still have about 25 pounds to lose.

I hope this therapy helps her let go of the past and see the present and look forward to the future. I feel a bit helpless since I won't be there. I want to ask her all about it, but don't want to smother her. I guess I'll just let her tell me... it'll be tough, but I'll just keep my lips shut when she gets home.

I'm going in September to get braces on my bottom teeth, then do some veneers or crowns on top to have a better smile. Something I've wanted my whole life!

Spent some cash on new clothes today... but hey, I deserve it (and need them!)

Thanks.

Just a thought... could it be that she's holding on to the past so tightly that she's just driven herself into a state of depression. I've never seen someone so adiment about being depressed. She has been depressed and sighing during all waking hours for over a month now.

Anyone have any experience with this? Once she deals with the depression (if it is depression... not a psychologist here), I feel like only at that point can we capture today and look forward to the future.

I appreciate all your insight...

One more thing... where can I learn more about "reverse babble". Did a search and couldn't get anything. I think I would be good at it!

Walt - I'm not a shrink, either, but some FWSs who post here have described being depressed. It's very common for BSs.

If it exists, it makes sense that this needs to be addressed before real gains can be made in quality of life of a marriage or any other aspects of living.

Ms. Orchid is the RB Queen in these parts. I think she invented the term. You won't find it discussed in MB literature, or any other "professional" publications. Just here on this forum. I am not an RB practitioner, and it's best described by example. Suggest you start a new thread requesting reverse babble recommendations for specific examples of foglatin spouted by your wife. Hopefully Ms. O and others will reply.

WAT

Walt, I heard WAT call out my name. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok....your wife's depression c/b key but her A and the excuses she used to promote the A and demean you are separate. RE: People have A's even when they are NOT depressed. It is an excuse.

Getting to the real reason for her depression is important. More important is for her to realize the path she is taking and now she needs to decide if she is willing t/b a valuable family member or a WS. Either way.....depression needs to be handled.

From your end, make sure you are able to tell the difference between a genuine issue/reason vs excuse. The WS tend to babble and use lots of excuses to justify the A.

You may be wondering how to tell if the A is still on in any shape or form. Well know this, the A c/b going on if in her mind she still craves attention outside of the M. In other words some WS' may or may not have an actual OM but living in that fantasy land, the family will be treated as if she does. Does that make your head spin? Imagine what it is doing to her....and she c/b promoting it by her choices.....all the more reason for her to work with a real IC who will get to the heart of the matter.

In the meantime, you will need to complete your plan A improvements, expose as you have been, create your personal support group (including your children)....realize your personal support group doesn't each have to know all, just enough t/b able to support you. You in turn have t/b the support for your children and maybe they need IC help also. You may even want to notify their school since it could affect their performance in school.

Secure your finances. WS' are very greedy creatures. Especially if your wife is one who likes to look nice....that c/b exaggarated immensely during an A.

Check out your D and child support along with separation and child custody options. Why? So when she babbles about doing anything like that you will know what is doable and not. Dads get more lienency now than before but they must still prove they are better providers than mothers. That's just the way it is.


As for reverse babble, it is simple but takes practice. The goal is to give back the guilt from the WS. It is important you have a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience BEFORE you use reverse babble. Why? Because you have to swift in your actions and reactions....the idea is to keep the WS off balanced so they find it harder to attack the family. That's right, WS' attack families. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Here are a few examples:

WS: I love you but I am not in love with you.

BS: Yea....I'm not in love with you as a WS either.

WS: Oh....don't you love me?

BS: I love my W, not the WS.

WS: What does that mean?

BS: Look in the mirror and figure it out. I love my W, not the WS....right now you are acting like the WS....what have you done with my W?

NOTE: See you are taking her babble and putting it back in her lap, in fact this example goes a step further and now tasks the WS to go find your Wife!!!

Example:

WS: I love my family.

BS: Really? Tell me how you are doing this better than before.

WS: Well...I.... wash the dishes.

BS: Washing dishes is good. We have a dishwasher also. How else?

WS? I wash the clothes and clean the house.

BS: That's good. We have a washing machine, dryer, vaccuum cleaner, shampooer, duster, etc..... You know you've done those things before the A. What are you doing now that is better for the family while having the A?

WS: Oh....I have a headache.... I need to go ....make a call.

BS:
BS: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (At this point, what can you say....you have already made your point....roll your eyes and walk away. She gets it.).

I used to practice in the mirror before I RB'd my then WS. Takes practice.

Reverse babble is not an MB slogan....but I sense it has been practiced for years by many without a name attached to it. RB is just my pet name for a tool I have found useful. You'd be surprised how many people can give you a reason to RB them. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Well, I'm not thrilled with the results of her first counseling session. I thought that the counseling was going to work on getting over the image she has burned into her head of me from years ago. Instead the counselor said things like "how can you create a feeling that's not there" and "would he consider separation". I feel like she told her the filtered version of our life together and the counselor just jumped along like a friend and told her what she wanted to hear.

How do I deal with this one? How do I find an individual couselor who's pro-marriage? I feel like she got even further away as a result of this one session. She got angry with me last night, but I didn't do anything really wrong for her to get angry. I know she's frustrated. However, she did come back upstairs and grab "His Needs, Her Needs" and brought it downstairs and read at least some of it, if not all of it. Don't know her thoughts she's still sleeping and I'm getting ready to go to the gym.

Any ideas of what to do would be greatly appreciated.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Either the counselor didn't say this - your wife made it up - or the counselor is incompetent.

You should assume an active WS will not tell a counselor the truth.

Stay at Plan A and be patient. No love busters.

JMHO

WAT

Well, I was out at work yesterday and she was reading "His Feelings, Her Feelings". She called me and said that this is exactly what happened to us. Especially the affection part. I said I agree, and I know alot of it was me, but I've learned alot. She said that she feels like it's too late, but I got the impression that she actually saw the possibility of recovery by reading the book. She had it with her a good part of the day and I think she finished it!

I told her that I can't stop her from getting a divorce, but I'm going to continue with my positive changes no matter what. I told her it's not going to happen overnight... it takes time.

She's going out with friends tonight. I'm going to do my best not to call (which I always have in the past) to make sure she's ok. I hate when she drives late by herself after a few drinks.

I'm going to do something special with the kids tonight. They need my love and attention right now more than anyone.

Thanks.

Good. U stood your ground and are putting your family 1st.

Keep up the good work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.