Well, had our first real MC session today. Learning a little about myself. Wife still on the fence, still Plan Aing, but tough to Plan A through counseling session.

Counselor told me that I'm not validating her feelings and that I have a very "right and wrong" way of thinking. He said he sees it alot and even though I may be right, it distances us.

I tie this to the Disrespectful Judgments. I'm trying to look at it in that if we separate, I want to at least learn something about myself so I can work on it.

I'm a little confused about some things. My wife is no longer having an affair, and her affairs were pure physical affairs to my knowledge. She now says that because we had a child young and got married that she feels like she never had the chance to choose who she wanted to be with, even though she made the decision she did.

I'm trying to understand her feelings at this point and not cast DJ's all around, which I can do very easily.

What's the difference between a purely PA versus a romatic affair where she's in love with a person and has a romantic emotional connection? How do you handle things differently?

I just got a call from the priest my wife saw. We have an appointment this Friday at 9:00 AM. Timing...

- Had counseling at 8:00 this morning. Left there scratching my head a bit.
- On the way to work something clicked and I understood things a little bit better.
- Got a call from the priest to see him on Friday.

Like I said... sometimes I can feel the prayers.

IMHO EA can sometimes be deadlier than a PA, sometimes the emotions that get caught up in "romantic affairs can be quite devastating.

Then again i am just going by what you said about those PA ended.

Maybe SF is a big deal with her? I dont know. But many a FWW would probably tell you that EA is more difficult to break off.

find Ms.W of Ms.Rob or MM and hear what they have to say.

Yes, SF is a big deal with my wife. But moreso the feeling of attraction before hand. She admitted today that sex between us was good once it got going, but to get going, she had to make an effort.

I get a little frustrated because she paints herself so well as a victim when I feel like the victim in the marriage as a whole.

It's hard to show affection when the wife doesn't want you anywhere near her physically.

I'd appreciate some thoughts from some veterans on these latest events.

WaltW,

What I noticed after my FWW's A is her unwillingness to let go of her justifications. Even in the face of an absolute truth that contridicted her justification she still wouldn't let it go.

It sounds to me as though one of your problems Pre A was her lack of attraction to you. You are obviously making an effort to change that.

But there could be a battle raging within her to hold onto the justification she has/had. Her being phsically attracted to you.

Of course she paints herself as a victim. It is the easiest route to take. If you would have ..... I wouldn't have had an A.

The real problem that exists in this is that as you make the changes to address the ..... that led to the A the justification disappears. Again a double edge sword. The FWS might feel a little contridicted. So now Walt is willing to do it maybe if I would have expressed concern in the proper way, not having an A to escape, maybe he would have changed. (Maybe not)

Admitting her physical attraction might be really hard right now.

I would address what she would like from you to so she can feel phsyically attraccted to you. If you can't meet those things then at least you can make a decesion that is good for both of you.

I know if my FWW told me I would never be attractive to her I would have a little problem with that.

Well, last night we hung out and chatted about therapy. She said that she actually felt bad for me because she did all these things and this guy is telling me to nurture her.

I told her last night that she never actually apologized for doing what she did. She said "I thought I did". I said, no, you didn't... because I don't think you really feel sorry for it.

She admitted that she had no regrets for her actions. That really hurt and pissed me off and made me question who the ****** I was married to! I tossed and turned all night. Generally had a bad day yesterday. Had a small breakdown late in the afternoon.

I called my wife this morning and told her that she's got what she wanted and I don't want to be married to her anymore. She said "but we've only been to one counseling session"... I told her that her values and her personality are so different from the person I married that I just don't think it's possible for her to make THAT many changes.

She said "ok" in a quiet voice. Then goodbye. I actually was testing the waters a bit to see if she was really ok with it. I called back to talk about our daughter's game schedule this week and got back into a conversation. I know... I should have never brought up divorce.

We agreed that the living arrangements wouldn't change and we'd have to live together for a while anyway, so why not work on it during that time.

I asked her what she really wants. She said "I want not to be married."

I know that I should have never engaged in this back and forth. It showed me waivering and I felt like I showed weakness.

CRAP! A bit disappointed in myself today for that. I have to be honest, sometimes I don't know if it's worth it... she's so shallow and selfish. Does that change? Is it a phase of this?

Anybody?

Any thoughts on this latest stuff... not getting much in the way of responses...

I had a slip up in Plan A and feel like I fell back three steps.

What's up with these WW looking to outside sources for happiness. Any thoughts on the fact that they should look within?

Don't worry about the tiny slip up.

Have you or your wife filled out the EN Questionaire?

Do you know what her most important needs are?



Alot of women feel this way. She needs to be thinking sexy thoughts in order to get her engine going before you get home. Don't take this as a rejection of you.

I wonder if a sex therapist would help you guys reconnect...

Just a thought...

Hi Walt. I'm sorry you had to hear your wife say such a thing (that she had no regrets). While this is a particularly selfish thing for her to say, you and I know that she is not in her right mind and may be saying things she doesn't really mean. For example, to avoid feeling her guilt (which from her depression, I believe she does feel) she might deny/minimize the pain she has caused you. At different times in the last 10 months my own dear WW has told me that she hates me, wishes I were dead, and hopes that if she has AIDS, that I get it too and die from it. She also spit in my face, which notwithstanding her affairs, was about the most disrespectful thing I think I have endured. (Obviously she can't control her emotions.)

I think your reaction (agreeing to divorce) in light of her remark is reasonable, but hastily reactive. If she can never empathize for the harm she has done you and never regrets her actions, then your relationship really has a poor prognosis. However, you might not want to push the button that launches the nuclear option today.

Rather than tell her that her personality is totally unacceptable to you (yes Walt, I do realize how cruel her remarks were), and that you don't want to remain married to her, you might have said something like, 'Let me make sure I understand you. You have had multiple sexual partners and been unfaithful to me, but you have no regrets about that. Do you understand how hurt I am by what you did. How pained I am by losing our special and treasured intimate relationship?' And then don't push her for a reaction now. Over time, she will, or will not be able to address her actions and work on the relationship -- here all you do is reveal to her (using more personal words than mine) the pain you feel.

I'm not telling you what to do, or faulting you. But what does it gain you to divorce her quickly? Can't you file six months from now just as well? Do yourself a favor and re-read this entire thread in one sitting. Your emotions are all over the place in the last month (and this is par for the course). You don't want to make one of the most important decisions of your life while you are still in such intense emotional pain. Consider slowing down a bit [Frank Pittman advocates this in his books].

Now, one question for you. My wife also has largely relationship-less affairs (mostly sex with infrequent contact). And is consumed with her appearance and missed out on a young swinging period in her 20s. In reading some of Peggy Vaughan's work I've been reminded of Admiration as an emotional need (its one of Harley's ten). Vaughan says that some women engage in affairs to reaffirm their desirability and importance. So my question for you is, is this a need you believe your wife may have, and if so, how are you doing a better job of meeting it?

I particularly have a hard time with this myself. Not praising and genuinely admiring my WW; her lies, disrespect, and affairs make it so hard for me to do this.

I wish you the best,

- WG

Thank you for the well thought out responses. The are VERY helpful to me.

After reading this, I called my wife and let her know that there was a sale on ski clothes at a local shop. We ski together whenever possible. I asked her if she wanted me to look for a coat and pants since she lost some weight. Her clothes from last year were huge on her.

She said that would be good and described what she wanted me to look for.

One of the things she's brought up in past conversations is that she never felt like I appreciated how much she works and that some women don't work at all. I remembered this when I read the post above regarding "admiration". I know that my wife wanted me to spend time with her when I had time off, but sometimes I chose to do things on my own (independent behavior... one of my worst love busters!!!)

While on the phone with her, I said that I wanted to clear one thing up. I told her that I really appreciated how hard she worked and the sacrifice of working nights to be home when the kids got off the bus. I told her that I always spoke so highly of her in that respect and I'm sorry if she felt like I didn't appreciate it. She just said ok, and I said goodbye.

Before this conversation, we had another where she said that she wants a divorce to be independent, that she feels like she skipped a part of her life where she was independent, etc. She felt like I was the father figure, disciplinarian in the house, etc. She also said that she wishes that someone would help her with finding a way to feel in love with me again, but she doesn't feel that way.

Could this be a clear case of the thinning fog? Is this a sign of hope? She actually is recognizing that she WANTS to feel a certain way toward me, but doesn't know how considering all the images of me from the past...

I feel like I need advice in a BIG WAY right now.

This is also a time to be Plan Aing it HARD!

Walt,

I think its great that she wants to feel in love with you (and can tell you that). On the other hand, recovering from all of this is going to take a long time. Eventually she will have to make up her own mind, and its not really in your best interest to control or manipulate her into staying. Buying her a ski jacket could just be being nice on your part, but you can't win her back with gifts, so guard yourself against the tendency to do/give everything for her. You really want her to want reconciliation and you have to be genuine. You are absolutely correct that Plan-Aing is a long-term pattern (you mentioned this in another thread).

If you've been the one with all of the power/responsibility in the relationship, it doesn't have to stay that way. Do you agree with her? Also, you can tell her during a calm discussion that you understand that feelings take time to work through, but that you truly believe that your love for each other can grow strong again. If you stay together (even now while its tough) you can give it a chance to work; if you part quickly, you'll never know. And there are plenty of negative consequences to divorce to want to give anybody pause.

I'm fuzzy on this point, but I think MB principles suggest not talking over much about the affair during the Plan A (unless she wants to?), but not hiding the consequences of the actions (i.e., your pain) either. How did the two of you resolve your 'no regrets/divorce' conversation?

- WG

Thanks, WG.

I didn't offer to buy her a jacket as a "gift", just to say I know you need something and there's a sale, etc. I did it to be nice. I struggle with being nice, being strong, being a pushover, being calm, talking nicely no matter what, its a very challenging balance for me.

I think she called to talk about the "no regrets" conversation earlier today. She brought up alot of things that bother her about me. She really is stuck in stuff that is YEARS old that don't even happen anymore. I think she wants some credit for putting up with stuff for a long time WITHOUT having an affair. Weird, but that's what I think she's doing.

I tell her that I understand that you feel this way. I've don alot to change many of the things that you're talking about and that our feelings may grow over time.

I know she's struggling over this. She's lost weight and really has a rough time with it.

I learned some things today that are really important. Like the fact that I need to do things with no expectation for a return. Just do them because I want to do them and for no other reason.

I like the fact that she resents my changes because I didn't do them before, but the fact is, I'm making the changes now.

This is tough but somehow fun and educational. I'll get through this, I know... I just hope I'm holding my wife's hand at the end.

I'm a recovering pushover and early in my crisis I confused Plan A (which also has a stick) with appeasement.

That actually sounds a little more rational to me that it appears to sound to you. Granted, an affair is bad, selfish response.

I also want that for the two of you. Hang in there,

- WG

I think I need some input and guidance on Plan A for when I'm in the presence of the wife. Any insight would be helpful. Sometimes I have "paralysis by analysis" when I'm thinking about how to behave, after all, it is an effort sometimes.

Thanks for your input WG.

Here's some random Plan-A mental training for you:

Own your part:
The affairs were hers, but you can take some heat for contributing to martial unhappiness. Someone has written (Pittman?) that the odds of the affair interrupting your great marriage are small. Work on making yourself a better spouse. She deserves it -- you did promise to care for her at the altar, right?

Have some pity:
Your WW is making poor choices. In part due to her own psychic pain. Its a shame she is doing things which are not only destructive to your marriage, but to her own person. If you screwed up (and none of us is immune) you'd want forgiveness.

Prioritize:
Don't sweat the small stuff. My wife brought a pet into our home without discussing this with me -- and the pet is really annoying. WW acted dishonestly and disrespectfully about the issue (e.g., telling me at first it was a temporary thing). Within a couple of weeks I found out about her affairs. In the larger scheme of things the pet issue can wait.

Empathize:
Not that you accept any reason to justify an affair, but, try and understand what factors contributed to her actions -- she was probably hurt by your selfish decision to leave her alone on her birthday. Yes, if she could have *told* you directly how she felt you might have acted differently; she probably wanted you to implicitly understand. Did you say whether she has familial factors (parents who had affairs) that pre-disposed her to an affair?

Realize that divorce sucks:
She seems to meet a lot of your needs and you want the marriage to recover. You want to make actions/reactions that help you achieve long term goals. Have you read Judith Wallenstein's research? Do you want your kids to be children of divorce? It could be that Plan-D will one-day be your best option, but the pain is too recent for you to make an informed decision now; choose to delay that decision for a while and discover if your M can recover. You might regret later not taking the time now to find out. As little as six weeks ago you didn't know about the affairs.

Vent understandable anger:
Who close to you can you talk to face-to-face about your marriage? (Someone same-sex who will support your M and just listen). Keep exercising twice a day. You are and will be angry, but there is little payoff to releasing that anger uncontrolled to your spouse.

Alter short-term expectations:
People here often describe WSs as alien's from space because they act so oddly. Try and downplay anything your WW says or does for a while.

Be whole:
Don't expect to get all your happiness in life from your marriage. Now is a good time to spend some time in hobbies and interests that you might have neglected.

Facilitate honesty:
Your WW disclosed a lot of stuff to you that I doubt you would have ever found out if she hadn't told you. (Prepare yourself in case there is more to come.) You want to encourage her to tell you anything and feel safe doing so. She will have a harder time doing this unless she knows that you want to know the full truth and will not get angry or verbally (or physically) act out.

- WG

Thanks. I think that I'm actually doing alot of these things, but have moments of weakness.

I've revisited my goal of weight loss. I think it's a HUGE factor in my wife's feelings toward recovery. I did a good job of not talking about R and A for a while. I don't name call, and I do admit that I contributed to the problems in our marriage that allowed vulnerability to affairs.

Focusing on myself is sometimes tough. I'm better when she's not around.

It's weird, but my wife has always had somewhat of a "spell" on me that sometimes made me feel good, but sometimes made me ticked off because there were times that I wanted to dislike her for things she did, but she still gave me butterflies when she walked into the room. We would argue, then get over it quickly... probably for that reason.

I just need to keep working on myself and be level headed even when it's not easy.

I know its early... I'm starting to realize that this is a long-term effort.

Funny thing is that what keeps her around is our financial situation. Could it be a blessing? It's bought us time that I don't know if she'd be willing to invest otherwise.

Not expecting too much in the short term is the tough one for me. I'm very "results-oriented". I need to realize that time and focus on my improvements are what's necessary for this to have a chance.

Thanks for your time and response.

I poured over phone records last night. I feel this need to know details and they bother me, but I still feel like I have to know everything.

Normal? Any suggestions how to handle them?

Financial constraints a blessing? I think they can be to the extent that anything that slows down the separation/dissolution options is probably a good thing.

Patience is a hard one for me too. After 6 weeks of nothing but lies I had had enough and was considering starting down Plan-D. However, I had close friends, a couple, suggest that being more gracious might not be a bad thing. In the end I did decide to hold off and wait, and I'm glad I did. I'm about to initiate a separation (in a few weeks) and I have peace of mind knowing that I've given it a good shot. My M is not likely to be saved at this point, sigh.

Eventually watch out for obsession -- it comes with a price. But vigilance is good. In my own, overly analytical engineering mentality, I kept a spreadsheet for 3-4 months of every call from her cell phone (that I could find out about) and calls to the house (via caller id). Eventually this got to be a bit too much for me, but I do have a nice stash of cell records printed out if I ever want to got back to them. Are you still concerned with the latest attempt (OM#4?).

BTW, does she still see her best friend?

If you get caught snooping, don't apologize or be defensive. Just nicely let her know that you care about the marriage.

One word of advice I got was that when you talk about the A (and assuming she's cooperating), keep it in 30 minute-sized chunks vs. all night marathons. You want to encourage disclosure and it helps if she thinks she won't be trapped for hours mulling over her sins.

Your need to know is understandable, but like many of your needs, you have to put it on the back burner for time. You do have to know to reconcile, but its not clear to me that she wants the marriage to go on at this point. Pushing her hard now for details probably won't help her want the M, but letting her know that you can hear anything and not blow up in her face is a good thing. Interestingly you wrote that when she told all, she started with a question like: "If I had an affair would you still want me". It may take a bit for her to believe you do and it may take you a bit to be sure you do; it's harder without full knowledge.

Have you let her know that she still makes your heart skip a beat?

Have a nice day,

- WG