Rob -

Pretty much agree with WAT is telling you.

I don't know much about CSA, so maybe I'm way off the mark, but here's my 2 cents worth.

Why the I'm trying real hard, but no ILY's? Because she hasn't really gone to NC. NC is not just not contacting the OM for a while. Its a decision to never contact the person again. I think in your case, your WW has not made this decision. She is placating you and not having contact, so when it doesn't work out for you, she can feel like, "look I gave it a try, and it didn't work, so my H should not be dissappointed in me for leaving and seeing how things work out with OM."

IMHO, I think there are two types of fence sitters. The first, the true cake eaters who like the attention from two people. The second, the type that just won't burn their bridges with either their S or the OP. I think my WW is in the later group, and I'm concerned yours is too.

Control is a big factor here. You may or may not be controlling at all, but your WW feels it as control. She fears dissappointing you. That fear makes her do things she does not want to do. Then she resents you for it. She is most likely not even aware that she does this and has probably been doing it for years. People can hang on like this for years. But eventually their taker comes out and says stop doing the things you don't want to do. But they still can't handle dissappointing someone. So they learn to lie, placate, stall. Problem is not only do they know this dissappoints you, it dissappoints themselves. The cycle just spirals downward until they are left with only one choice. To get the heck away from you. Thus the appeal of the OM. He meets their R needs, but he makes so few demands, so few opportunities to dissappoint them. But as the A continues, the M gets worse, and they start to worry about dissappointing OM.

The snag on D-day is that the WW now has to dissappoint someone. But they just won't do it. I think your WW's plans to spend some amount of time, trying to convince you that NC is in place, go through all the motions of trying to do recovery, then get to the end of it and say, "Nope, just didn't work for me." She hopes you will then say, "I see, lets go ahead and get a D, I'm not dissappointed in you, cause I know you tried."

What WAT is telling you about IC is spot on. Because when your WW tells this story to IC, she's going to shade it some and the IC is going to say, "Ah yes, you need to get away from your S so you can feel better" And she will feel better. She'll feel better for as long as she avoids intimate R's. Then once she starts another R, the cycle will start over.

Okay, its not all doom and gloom here. Bascially Plan A is the right first step. But I will say you need to be thinking about when you will do a plan B. Also be thinking about what you will do if you discover renewed contact.

While your in plan A, I think there are several things you should keep in mind. You can't break this cycle without radical honesty. Unfortunately you can't force this. What you can do is to make her feel totally safe to talk to you about anything. You need to develop a real poker face. I'm not talking be stone cold, but never too up when she does something you like, and never too down when she doesn't.

Be very choiceful about what you want her to do. Most likely she will agree to most anything you ask, even bring up some things, but it will be fake. So get clear on what you want right now. Think minimums.

Don't get into conversations about where your M is going to go. Don't talk about how it can be better than ever, etc. She probably doesn't believe that and when you talk about it, it just looks like another opportunity for her to dissappoint you.

Try to break the cycle of reciprocity. When you do something for her, she needs to not feel obligated to return it. Some reciprocity is fine, but not so it seems obligated. For example, don't say "Honey you look great tonight". She will feel obligated to return the compliment. say "Honey you look great tonight, have you done something different with your hair?"

Work on yourself, be upbeat and positive, and try to be a little mysterious. Distract, distract. Most people who fear dissappointing others have become very skilled at reading others. Don't be easy to read. I'm not saying lie. I'm saying don't wear your emotions on your sleeve. If she can read you, she won't talk to you.

Anyway, JMHO.

Rprynne,

Wow, I think you hit the nail on the head on many issues. I have read and re-read your post several times, and will some more. It has to sink in. A lot of insight there.
Getting her to drop her IC will be hard. She seems to like him very much. At first she couldn;t wait until she could see him again and if something really stressed her she would book another session in the same week. Last week she actually forgot the session because the day of week had changed. She did not make that up and didn;t seem to miss it. Tommarow will be the first time she has gone in two weeks. I am always nervous about what might be decided or directed with him. The biggest red flag came when she told me that he "was leaning to a three month separation". He?
Thanks again and I will digest this and follow up later.

Eggzackly.

You need a response to counter this lunacy.

Please consider consulting with Steve H. or Jen C. - the MB counselors. They are very well equipped to help you thru this dicey tiime.

Now, keep in mind that her IC may not actually be telling her this. That's a possibility.

Yes, it is hard to decern if what she says about her IC is factual or she is twisting it to delute the responsibility of the decision.
Last night we talked about "stuff" for the frst time in several weeks or more. I was giving her a foot/leg massage and she atarted talking. I mostly listened. As I am convinced that her most importatnt EN is conversation. She talked about seeing her IC today. We kind of recapped stuff that has happened in the last two weeks. She decided to stya at home for two months instead of separation, her grandmother died and she went to her funeral, spent a lot of time with her mother, father (the abuser) and other relatives she had not seen in a long time. She returned to work, on her second day back at work they moved her back to her old position as victim advocate. That is the position she likes the most.
Then she started talking about working on her self again. She talked about how she has read enough about the effect on the kids and how her IC said they would be selfish at this age but that it is OK.She talked about how everyone is selfish in thier wants and so is she. But she has to take care of herself so she can be happy again.
She ended up talking about some old conflicts with the kids. The bitterness that she holds onto is really a turnoff for me. During those types of re-hashing of past bad experienes I find myself really not liking that part of her. She can re-hash what she feels as wrongs over and over...they never seem to go away. But I listen and acknowledge. I keep repeating in my head...no LB's, no LB's.
This morning I woke up a little onery and was really tweaking her buttons a little. But all with a wink and a smile. Telling her I wonder if her "bounderies" changes over night, rubbed her butt... then when I left I just patted her forehead....that is what she does to me in leu of a kiss.... I tell her it makes me feel like a dog, but thanks for the pat.

If I get hard evidence of continued contact, I will require a no contact letter. If that is not acceptable to her, I will probably go to plan B. But I will make those decisions at that time.
To top off all of these issues, my father who is in his late 80's was admiited into intensive care Sunday. He is a type 2 diabetic (as I am), had a stroke a year ago and now has septic pneumonia. The doctors are giving him a 50/50 chance. I have three sisters and a brother who are helping my mother out at the moment. If he is still in the hospital by next Monday i will go and stay with my Mom for a few days to help as my sister returns to work then.
'Crazy times....

"IMHO, I think there are two types of fence sitters. The first, the true cake eaters who like the attention from two people. The second, the type that just won't burn their bridges with either their S or the OP. I think my WW is in the later group, and I'm concerned yours is too."

WW called me from her work. She was filling out paper work and wanted to let me know she was putting me dowm as her beneficiary. Secondary would be the boys.... mmmmmm. I guess other than her parents, what could she do? This is after her session with her IC. No discussion on that yet.
I text messaged her. Told her she was my love, my life, the bugger in my nose and I am trying not to blow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Very romantic I know, but aptly expresses how I feel.

putting you down as a beniferary...good
she loves you thats gotta be the only reason imo

Thanks Jim. Hope you are right. This morning in bed I was talking to her. Told her I loved her, she smiles and nods. Asked her if she was glad that I do. She smiles and nods.Told her I knew she still cared for me or she would not be in bed with me...again a smile and nod. Said I am glad she "likes" me. She said "you don't know how I feel". (I guess the "my feeling are gone" and the emotional divorce statements didn't count)
Really love those statements that you can read in so many ways.... wondering if I will ever hear the I Love You again. Sometimes I think she is just bullheaded and enjoys the drama and attention. She has told three of her friends, her mother, her cousin, the kids, her IC, others at her work know she is having marriage problems. She told me her boss called and asked if she was at work yesterday because she was so quite in her office. She responded with a joke about her being there is questionable, refering to the stress of her marital problems. Of course the issue with the OM is not involved in any of the discussions.... it wasn't an affiar anyway right? Just a symptom of our problems....right? Why mention that little bit of the puzzle?
Sorry for the sarcasm. But as you can see all of you are the only ones I have been able to share with in three months....so Thanks for listening!

i hear ya ,but at least she still lives with you so you can change in front of her eyes.when i caught my wife she picked up and left,so keep going listen to these people on the boards they will put you in the right direction and you can turn this around

The latest in the continueing story...
WW told me a little about her IC session. She said that he thought she was doing very well with everything. Better than the first time (?) She was stronger etc. I told her it sounded like she got an A+.
Later in bed she told me that they talked about our love. She does not believe that i love her. She believes that I never have. Remember that adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse have intimacy issues. They cannot trust and hardly trust thier own judgement. It will not make any difference in what I say about the things I did in the past that would show her that I did love her, she would not believe it anyway. And of course the EA dropped a bomb on any remaining belief she might have had that I did love her.

She said the IC used an analagy about reading in a paper about a man who didn't love his wife for 18 years, then she wanted to leave and for two months he changed, if you were voting if his love was real of not, what would you vote?
He told her not to be so hard on herself about it. She said something about not being able to just turn it on and off with a switch (her love)
I guess she feels guilty that I am doing good and she has not been able to reciprocate the feelings.

So here is my question. I believe that affection and conversation are her two most important EN's. However, I have read on these boards that you should not tell them ILY and to be mysterious somewhat etc.
So how do I meet her needs for affection, letting her know that I love her, but not tell her I love her? I know actions speak louder than words and my actions are speaking very loud.
I wish I knew that magic thing to do that would make her go...gee, I think he really must love me. I feel it, say it., do it... time?

Rob - Its not that you can't be affectionate or say ILY. Just don't over do it, and don't do it with expectations. It has to be a sincere expression.

It's hard, but don't take this stuff personally.

She's merely trying to scapegoat you - common practice and a necessity for blame shifting. It's easier to emphasize your faults instead of considering her own.

The older and more trivial her criticisms, the better off you are. If she has to scrape the bottom of the barrel to dig these up - or repeat the same ones over and over, guess why?

BS thumb rule > the weider and more trivial the WS's accusations of you, the more desperate the WS.



Conversation is very likely in the top two ENs for the vast majority of mature women. Just MHO. AND - it's a safe assumption that most men don't realize this, because it's not a biggie for men.

I suggest you do tell her you love her - just not every other sentence. Don't be over bearing. At this point it may make her feel bad/guilty. It may make you come across as trying too hard. Same for affection - don't be too touchy. This is where being a bit aloof or mysterious comes into play. Not in a manipulative way, but in a flirty way. Pull back a little and make her wonder what you're thinking.

caveat: I'm a guy and can't read female minds any better than you can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Conversation and accompanying listening are very important. Pay attention when you're conversing. Make eye contact.

Making love to a woman is an all day job - and most of it you do without touching her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JMHO

WAT

Rprynne,
Understood. Seems to be definate phases to all this.
At first, I was overwhelmed with grief. Two weeks of crying and sadness.
I had a business trip scheduled out of the country for two weeks about two weeks after D day. First week and a half about the same...started getting stronger.
Upon returning and about 4 weeks after D day, was numb and not visually emotional. Found MB.
Plan A and was smothering.
7 weeks after D- day that separation announcement, along with the I don't want anyone else, wants MC, wants me to court her. (When she stays she doesn't want MC)
Me - emotionally shaken but no anger and offering support.
Then the roller coaster of leaving, not leaving, leaving, not leaving. I was continuing to plan A, probably still too much attention. I found where she rented the property for the 2nd time on a Friday on a Saturday morning. So, I picked her up from her walk, talked to her. I told her I thought she should move. I could not be responsible for her being unhappy because I love her, that the stress from it all was very unhealthy for me. That night she broke down and cried. Did not want to leave. Next morning, it was see how it goes, by lunch it was maybe move, by dinner it was moving. Then not, then moving...arghhh. (we could have lunch once a week, far cry from MC) A couple of emotional breakdowns on her part and me comforting her. She finally decided to stay,. for two months then decide.
So I went from an emotional wreck - 3.5 weeks
Numb - 2 weeks
over-doing plan A 4-5 weeks.
Pulling back gradually 4 weeks. Finnally getting my head back into work. Still probably over doing it a little. Wondering if I should pull back more.....

Making love to a woman is an all day job - and most of it you do without touching her.

JMHO

WAT

Gotcha, right now it's a full time job 24/7 and havn't gotten naked with her in three months!

Does it ever blow your mind. Two days before D day she wakes me in the morning telling me she is horny and ask me to take a shower with her, which I do and she...uhm, lets just say is happy... after D day she doesn't want it ("with anyone"), doesn't miss it, doesn't know if she could ever do it with me again, ever..etc.
She actually asked me once if I could stay married to her if we never had sex again. ( told her honestly I could not be in a sexless marraige) so later she implied she would be doing what best for me by leaving so I could be in a relationship with sex. And to be clear, I never talk about it or ask for it at this stage in the game. (remember she was abused by her father)

Which reminds me, in all my sleeplessness these days, i found my wife talks in her sleep, not just talks, but I can actually have a conversation with her and she will not remember a word. Last night/early morning she started by asking if she will go to heaven. Said sure your will, she said Im not mean, I said of course not. etc. She didn't want people to be sad, the sweetest was she said she couldn't go before my father....he is like her dad.
In one she talked about people saying mean things about me, she wanted to punch them. She would not tell me who or what, because it would hurt me. Interesting stuff, she speaks in a meek vioce in her sleep talk. Today I bought a recorder.

Thanks for the advice!

Bad day? Or good day in disguise?
Wow, what a day Friday, I could tell my WW was distant first thing in the morning. Not in the best of moods. We took the boys out for dinner after work, on the way I noticed the radio was on sports talk so I pushed the button to a music station. She perked up and asked “did you just turn up the volume?” It was during a brief lull in the conversation. I was tired but trying hard to participate in conversation with her. I explained that I just changed the station. The boys started chiming in saying that I did nothing wrong, she defended and the 15 year old said it was her tone. She got quite. I know that one! Her feelings were hurt. Now I must say out two boys are very nice and the youngest about the politest kid you will meet. They were just joking around and meant no offense. At dinner she continued the silent treatment, it was a buffet so I found a spot to ask her if she was OK. She said she felt like she was being ganged up on. Etc. I apologized and she said it wasn’t me. Later I told the boys we hurt her feelings, and they apologized, the 15 year old saying he was just joking around.
After we got home she said she wanted to go stay at her house for the night, needed some time alone. This would be the first.
I broke out the cards and we played some before she left. Somehow we got into a conversation on what happened, I explained that I didn’t see anything wrong with the boy’s behavior, but understood she did. She feels like they don’t respect her, that she always built me up to them but I never did that for her. It reminded me of so many times in our relationship that frustrated me. I have noted that I think she is hyper-sensitive. She cannot take any joking banter at all. No teasing or anything like it. Her ego bruises so easy.
Somehow the conversation went down hill, I was calm but I did ask her how often she spoke with the OM. She claimed not sense D-Day. Asking me why I was asking. I admitted that I saw the call online. She got very angry. She thought and thought then claimed she was deleting old contacts and accidentally dialed it and hung up as soon as she realized it. The call was for 1 minute. But it was within 1 minute from when she got off the phone with her Mom telling her that her grandmother has died. Funny time to decide to clear your phone contacts.
I went on to tell her how the affair hurt me very bad. She claimed it wasn’t an affair again. I stood my ground this time and said it was, and EA and that it can be as damaging to a marriage as a physical one. They had fallen in love and were planning to meet at a hotel when I discovered the emails. She was talking about having sex in the emails. Something about holding intercourse at bay for now, but you never know etc.
I then talked about how responsible I was for letting our relationship get to the point where something like this could happen. How she was so compassionate and loving when we married and I took responsibility for screwing it up.
I left to go to the store for my son, and she called me and said she was going to her house.
After I got home, she came back. She said she didn’t need to be alone. We went to bed.
I really did not feel bad about anything I said or the way I said it. I was emotional at a few times with tears in my eyes, but never angry or crying.
Today she was quite. As they day went on we talked a little more as we did chores. Finally she was going for a walk and I gave her a head rub before hand. She talked, saying I reminded her of the old me last night…. Apologized again for hurting her feelings, but I won’t apologize for anything I said. She talked about sex. She doesn’t miss it; the thought of it grosses her out. She keeps asking if I think she can ever be happy again. I of course say yes,
I know this is long, but what a day. She is in bed trying to sleep now. She thanked me for being nice today.
Any thoughts on this?

She's in conflict, rob.

Keep doing what you're doing. Your Plan A sounds like it's having some effect.

Avoid LBs like the plague.

Sit back and watch.

WAT

Thanks Worthatry,

I think you are right. I really can't see her moving out anymore....unless some serious LB's happen. So i will be diligent. I am also going to hold back more on the affection...which I mean the physical part, other than the foot and head masssages I give her occasionally to help relax her.
This morning was good. We talked and joked while she got ready for church. I bought a voice recorder and was able to record a sleep talk conversation with her. She was embarrased because she was upset with people who were dissapointed that a submarine wouldn't fly. She said people should just grow up and be happy. I asked her if she was happy, she said she was sad. She said she was broken. She didn't think she could be fixed. She said her mom was praying for her. I asked her if she would be happy if a submarine would fly, she said submarines can't fly.
So I played that for her and we joked around. It really is interesting stuff.

Last night I thought she was sleeping as I posted the previous update. I checked on her and she asked about this site. It is bothering her that I visit here. She asked if I was emailing someone about us. No, I said I would not be comfortable about that. She has friends and an IC to talk to, I have no one and this site helps me...she does not know I post. She then told me she still does not think it was an affair. I said we would just have to disagree on that then and coaxed her to sleep.

Sorry for the details, but I do really appreciate the opportunity to "talk" about this to the MB people, and I do appreciate the advice and support.

Tell her it's only because their wings are too short.

Or.......tell they actually DO fly, underwater.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

A quick update on my situation.
Monday morning my wife said that I deserved a hug because I was going to visit my father in the hospital. She layed her head on my chest and we talked a little about my father. Before leaving she said "you can hug me" and we hugged. We are calling back and forth on the progress (or lack of) on my father.
I came home last night to get some sleep before I return today. Again she layed on my chest this morning. Another nice long hug before she left to work. Still no ILY's or anything else. But I will tell you this is a far cry from separation and we can have lunch together once a week. That was just 4 weeks ago.
I am hoping to make a final post someday that will be encouraging to anyone in Plan A.
I am off to be with my father as he passes on. Sure puts things in perpective.

robm,
I am rooting for you! Good luck and keep up the loving ways that you have found to become the man you want to be and to love your wife the way she needs to be loved
Heartsore

Robm, who else knows about the affair?


Doesn't matter what those issues are a result of. Her behavior is the same as anybody else who doesn't want her affair to end. I revoke her abuse card.

Having you in her life does not make your wife's problems worse. Her affair does not make them better. Oh, and there is no way that she'll move away and be by herself. Not a chance. People having affairs don't ever do that. They get their own places and have affairs and start playing house or playing at being single and dating their affair partner. Even if they don't mean to in the beginning, that's what they do. Sure as the turning of the earth.

Regarding your wife's state of mind right now... you've exactly described the attitude my ex-wife had two years ago, just before she decided to dive headlong into her affair. You are not in recovery. She's in withdrawal, and doesn't want to be, and is in some occasional contact with the OM. Consider this affair active. She has not made the choice not to do it. She's biding her time, waiting for you to screw up and give her an excuse (don't let her indifference fool you - she's watching you like a hawk), or for OM to come and take her away. She's mourning the OM and looking for excuses to go running to him, thinking that will make the pain go away. The brain-dead IC she visits is only making it seem like this might be a good idea.

The following opinion may be unpopular: I think you should make her choose. I think you should say either commit to NC, make your life an open book, accept the truth that your feelings will return if you choose your husband and family, suck up the pain of withdrawal from Mr. Knife-Under-the-Bed (I'll bet you $100 that's made up), and get to the business of repairing the life you have...

OR...

Go away immediately.

I'd say, darlin' I love you and I'll do anything it takes to help you and to save this family, but I will not be the third wheel. Write that NC letter and get serious, or get out today.

GC